₦airaland Forum

Deep Sight:
Thanks - here you have positively asserted that the brain is NOT the creature. . . the problem then rebounds on you to answer: what is the creature?

Have you ever heard of thought waves?

It comes into play in answering the question: what is the function of the brain? A tool for what. . .or who. . .?

It is said to be attached to the physical at the point of the base of the cerebellum. _{Shhh. . .na secret be that o.}

What are you saying here? . . . .We know where the human "minds" resides, it resides in the brain. . . . Our memories, our personality, everything that "makes" us is contained within that Grey matter in our skulls, It controls all our voluntary and involuntary actions as mentioned by some one here and can be affected by changes to that same Grey matter. I have seen an elderly relative of a friend who slowly faded away over the space of about a 8 years thanks to Alzheimer's disease. How anyone can witness that and still delude themselves that there is such a thing as a "soul" utterly baffles me. Every scrap of evidence shows us that "minds" are contingent upon physical matter and energy. As others have asked where in the body does the soul reside? So far no body has ever detected any thing like the soul any where. . . . .

viaro:
The answer as mazaje stated is a superficial 'no'. Did mazaje recognize the 'works' addressed in Matthew which I pointed out as reproduced below?

Yes I did. . .Lets now look at the said miraculous works

[list][li]casting out demons (Matt. 8:16)[/li]

What does it mean to cast out demons? What are demons? Any evidence to show that demons exists? I have seen people "casting" out various types of "demons" lately including "demons" of homosexuality, "demons" that cause failed marriages, "demons" that block success and demons that make children to be disobedient. . . There are Just too many types of "demons" these days . . . In fact people try to cast out "demons" of corruption these days. . .Demon means nothing since one can not really point to the existence of any demon outside a person's alleged behavior or behavioral pattern and some circumstances or experience. . . .Casting out "demons" of disobedience in children for example means people are just trying to do what is not there and as such will not be considered a miracle IMO. . . 

[li]healing the sick (Matt. 14:14)[/li]

Yes Jesus was said to heal amputees and blind people that have never seen, people that have been bed riding and have never walked in their lives. . .Believers and unbelievers all saw him do that. . . .Can any Christian alive boast of such ability? I can bring my friends (who is a Christian) 5 year old son who was born blind and has never seen at all. . . .Can you arrange any Christian healer to heal him? Remember the words of Jesus. . .

John 14 12-14
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

I can arrange the Child and Fly him to any Christian healer of your Chosen, Surely healing the innocent 5 year old child and giving him the ability to see and enjoy sight and winning the heart of an atheist like me should be a good thing for you and Jesus no?. . . .I am waiting. . . .

[li]healing demoniacs (Matt. 12:22)[/li]

What is demoniacs?. . . LOL. . . .I will let this pass. . . .

[li]raising the dead (Matt. 11:5)[/li][/list]

Have you heard any Christian alive to day achieving this feat? Can any Christian go and resurrect a person that was buried like Jesus did with Lazarus?  Remember it says greater miracles than these shall you do if you believe in me. . .Why are Christians unable to do this today?. . . .

No, mazaje certainly did not recognize those 'works'; and if he did, I stand to declare his answer as patently false and sad. Christians have done those 'works', and your attempt to whip up a convenient superficiality for your position is simply a non-starter.

I have recognized the works and I repeat the Christians around are NOT able to do them talk less of doing anything greater then them. . . Christian for example are NOT able to raise people from the dead like Jesus was said to have done with Lazarus. . . .Christians are not able to heal amputees or heal people that are born blind. . . .We hear about Christian healing people with malaria, cancer, HIV, fever, cold (some times after the people receive medical treatment) etc. . . Things that naturally go away on their own or were wrongly diagnosed. . . .Clear cut miracles like healing amputees which Jesus was said to have done and promised others the ability to do are NEVER done by any Christian only vague and so so miracles

What I have experienced are not 'anecdotal' - and that was why I hinted about naturalists who lean towards atheism and yet speak of 'spirituality' as a compromise for one simple reason: they cannot expressly deny the realities of these things, but they will save face by making recourse to a sort of 'spirituality' without reference to SPIRIT. I know this, because I have spoken with quite a few of them who are deep in their own type of atheism with a spiritual clause - and such folks opened my eyes to the understanding that there are many atheists who are not willing to come forward and confess that there is a reality BEYOND their own naturalism! They rather just want an atheism that is every bit as 'religious' as religion itself could be defined (with the exception, of course, of mazaje's small world for all types of 'atheisms'  ). These folks, if they would be bold-faced enough to drop their compromises, would tell you better than I ever could - that they know these things for a certainty and yet would NOT want to believe in God, especially the Christian God. My misfortunate here is that there is a paucity of materials online that would attest to this very thing, although a few of these guys say that this type of 'atheism' is quite recent and new.

Your example are anecdotal. . . .And what are the realities that they have experience that is beyond their naturalism?. . . . Pls can you tell us?. . .

Yes.

Do you have medical records from hospitals that establish that the person was blind? How do you know that it was not a hoax? Surely if what you are saying is true then I will arrange for my friends Child to meet who ever it is that was able to perform such magic so that he will do it again but this time with a 5 year old Christian child that was born blind. . . .

Yes.

How sure are you that it wasn't a hoax? Any doctor to confirm that the person was truly deaf? Evidence for this claim like access to medical records which confirm that the person was medically classified to deaf and later regained his hearing ablity?

No.

Sure clear cut miracles are NEVER done which is VERY telling. . . . .

I already said that my attestation is subjective; but subjective attestations in these matters is not useless or meaningless, unless your type of atheism is so narrow that it knows nothing outside of itself.

Let me jump in hear and say that my type of atheism agrees with things that have been objectively shown to exist with empirical evidence. . . .If you claim to have the ability to perform magic like healing of the blind then you better will prove it else I will consider you a time waster. . . .You make a an extra ordinary claim then you better prove it beyond reasonable doubt with empirical and verifiable evidence else you are a joker to me. . . .

[False, patently false. Look again at the inclusive works of Jesus enlisted in
post #95 - they include "ANY of the 'works' of Jesus" and there are people who have done them as He promised.

I think you are trying to be disingenuous here I must say, because if you read his statement in full you will see where you delibrately left out the main point he made. . .you took just a part of the sentence and gave it a meaning of your own. . . .Here is what he said in full. . . .

No Christian today has done any of the miraculous works of Jesus like walking on water, turning water into wine, healing amputees and raising people from their graves after they have been dead for some days like the case of Lazarus. Even though Jesus promised that those that believe in him will do greater miraculous works than he was said to have done. Has any Christian believer done any miraculous work greater than the one Jesus was said to have done? No.

He was specific and clearly explained what he meant by any  he even went ahead and listed the type of miracles that was attributed to Jesus that NO Christian alive to day has ever done. . . .That is what he meant by the any IMO. . .meaning no Christian has ever done any of the miracles he listed even when Jesus promised his disciples such abilities. . . .

All hail the oneness of infinity. . .

viaro:
I don't know how many today have done or are doing what you enlisted, nor would I begin to make up stories to fill gaps. Often, I go by hard facts (whether they are broadly braodcast or subjective). However, the atheist assumption that no Christian could do ANY miracle is an open lie, and I have used the example of Mark 16 to point that out very simply.

I repeat Jesus was said to have healed amputees, raised the dead, walked on water, stopped tsunamis and storms, Feed 5000 people with 2 fish and 5 bread and promised his followers the ability to do greater things than this. . . Correct me if I am wrong but NO Christian has ever walked on water or turned water into wine. . .Has any christian ever healed an amputee and made his or her amputated limbs or body part grow back?. . . .

There is a difference between Jesus' words and superficially reading His words. It is His own words that I drew from and explained the context using 1 Corinthians 12, and that is precisely how the collective picture for exegesis is given in Scripture - both OT and NT. You don't just take a verse and give it a private interpretation on its own as if that is all there is to say about any particular subject, and 2 Pet. 1:20 points it out lucidly in the NT, while an example of this exegesis could be found in Daniel 9:2. It is not a question of the words of Paul over the words of Jesus, and every student of the Bible understands the simple meaning of 'exegesis', and it amazes me that that is the one word that accentuates the atheist's superficiality.

You keep running around yet refusing to address the question and explaining NOTHING. . . .Did Jesus promise his followers and those that believe in him the ability to do greater things than what he was said to have done? Yes. Are those that believe in him doing greater things that he was said to have done today? NO. . . . .NON of them is even doing what he is said to have done talk less of doing more. . . .

Again, I would repeat this: 'It is not a question of the words of Paul over the words of Jesus, and every student of the Bible understands the simple meaning of 'exegesis', and it amazes me that that is the one word that accentuates the atheist's superficiality.' The point is that Biblical exegesis is very well know to Biblical characters, and there are several examples where the disciples did not just take a literal view of what they heard from Jesus. I'm sure you obviously missed such examples in your quest to be so legalistic in your superficiality.

Exegesis card again. . . Did Jesus promise his followers and those that believe in him the ability to do greater things than him? YES are they doing such things today. . .NO. . . .You can not run away from that fact. . . .exegesis or not will not help you here. . .

Thank you for quoting Matthew 17:20 (besides the others cited) - does it not have a context in the whole passage?

Prior to this passage, we read in chapter 10:1 that Jesus called the twelve disciples and 'gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease'. The people among whom they ministered would have seen such power manifest in the disicples . . and that was why this 'certain man' first brought his lunatic son to the disciples and yet said: 'I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him' (Matthew 17:14-16). When Jesus healed that man's son, the disciples were baffled and asked pointedly: 'Why could not we cast him out?' (verse 19) . It is remarkable to read Jesus' answer in verse 20 to their question: 'Because of your unbelief', even though He had given them power against unclean spirits. And after He explained that nothing shall be impossible unto them if they had faith as a grain of mustard seed, then He went on to reveal something to them in verse 21 - "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting." (see the parallel in Mark 9:29 - 'This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting').

What is all these long writing that explains nothing at all. . . .This is quite very simple. . .Believe and it will happen the verse even explain the reason they were unable to cast out demon which was unbelief. . . .Jesus says believe and you will do greater things than I did. . .

It is not only by prayer and/or fasting that certain seemingly impossible situations are dealt with. However, the point to note here is that even though the apostles had been given such power over unclean spirits and over all manner of sicknesses and all diseases (Matt. 10:1), they still found yet that there are certain unclean spirits and sicknesses that they could not deal with by just possessing the gift of 'power' to do the miraculous (Matt. 17:19). This is one very important thing that should be taken into account when reading any text - and 1 Corinthians 12 provides a good context to understand the situation between Matthew 10 and 17.

What was the reason that Jesus gave for their inability to perform magic? unbelief. . . .believe and you will do greater things than Jesus was the promise. . .

This has nothing to do with the superficial argument or wranggling over 'Paul's word'; but it is important to see that when you take any verse of the Bible and just plaster your superfluity on them in abject ignorance of their contexts, deixis or exegetical foundations, you won't see what any verse is trying to say at all.

Your exegesis so have have failed to explain anything so far. . .It was only able to cut and paste and exlplain things away without addressing anything a all. . .

Even if you leave out your nightmare of 'Paul's words' from the whole passages, take a look at the one thing you are yet missing: context. Jesus did NOT use 'belief' as 'the only criteria'; for we have just seen that your assumption is quite puerile. Matthew 10 shows that because they believed in Him, they were chosen to be His apostles and power were given them over ALL manner of sicknesses and diseases. Yes? Yes. But what happened in Matthew 17? They could not heal a lunatic son even though they had such power to do so. They asked Jesus why that was so, and He explained that certain spirits require MORE THAN 'belief', for 'belief is NOT the "only"' criteria. This is a fact that prophets of both the OT and NT knew and understood, and yet only mazaje would fail to grasp these simple things because he has a problem with 'Paul's words'. Ha.

I one verse it is said that belief alone is what is required and in another it says belief alone is not what is required eh? In all the verses that I quoted believe was the only criteria. . . .

I have seen some Christians pray over gathering storms that gave way to clement weather - not once but on three different occasions in three different locations. I have also seen such a downpour after much prayer - in more times than I could count. I have seen people miraculously healed in precisely the way that some of the apostles did in Acts 19:12, and in some instances some who had the power to heal had not been able to manifest them.

Vairo the la-la. . .Where Christians believer not praying to go to stop the katrina storm? Why was their prayer unable to stop it? have you ever seen a Christian turn water into wine or healed an amputee? Why do we always "hear" about healing but never see any objective one that will keep every body quite like healing of an amputee? We always here lalala tales about this or that. . .When will any believer in Jesus heal an amputee like Jesus was said to have done? I can go on and count the number of times that such miracles have been exposed to be a sham or number of times Christians have prayed for miracles in my presence while quoting the very verse in JOHN TO HELP THEM MAKE a case in their plea and nothing happened. . .But i will not

Again, this has nothing to do with my own subjective experiences, for there are others who have witnessed far more in the miraculous than viaro has. You may not have seen any of these, and using your atheistic complaining to validate your atheistic arguments is a huge joke - especially when considered in light of your superficiality and disregard for context in the verses you argue about. But yes, we will always disagree over these matters - not because you have any substance to your arguments, but because you're trying to use your atheism to argue what you don't even have a clue about.

Any body ever seen a christian heal an amputee or walk on water?. . . .When will we see Christians perform greater magic than what Jesus was said to have preformed despite his promise?

It is genuinely superfluous - and has been addressed.

It is very valid and you have addressed NOTHING so far. . . .

My straightforard answer is this: Jesus never implied we are supposed to be clones. The fact that there are Christians who have and continue to manifest the signs and wonders enlisted in His promises shows that your argument that they have not done ANY of such is not only patently false but also patently sad. True, we may not all have done precisely those same things such as walking on water; but does that mean that no Christian has demonstrated the miraculous in ANY way or form? It is not even your denial that counts, but that you don't even have a grasp of what you're arguing.

I knew that this was going to come up at the end, Its either people should not take the bible as it reads or that the bible was not really saying what it was saying. . . . . . I have seen a debate where some apologist said that the verse in John 14 12-14 could have been an interpolation by one of the over zealous scribes and that Jesus might have not said those words at all . . . .Any thing that can rationalize the Christians faith . . . Nothing do wuna make wuna carry go. . . .

viaro:
This, my dear friend, is where you get it ALL WRONG, and it would do you some good to have a good grasp of what you attempt to claim before even type the first letter. Translated: YES, the Bible does make a case, a very strong case, for SUBJECTIVE miracles. It is not a question open to willy-nilly showcases, but of one addressing an exclusivity that is simple and straightforward in what it presents.

Having an ability to do things greater than what Jesus was said to do does not sound like something that is subjective to me. .  .That was the context I was talking about. . .

There are many such verses that could be examined in the case presented in my previous reply exemplifying Mark 16:17-18, and John 14:12-13 is yet another example. As noted earlier: "Any careless or superficial reading would produce the assumption that we find in your query where all Christians are supposed to be doing all those things without exceptions", and that is what again has shown in your reply, especially when you ignore 1 Cor. 12:27-31 which was cited earlier to help you see the mistake in superficial reading of those texts.

OK. . .Who amongst  those that are able to perform miracles have done anything close to what Jesus was written to have done? How many of the said miracle workers around have ever healed an amputee, walked on water, raised people from the dead or feed 5000 people with 2 fish and 5 pieces of bread? Remember Jesus said that those that believe in him will do greater things than he was said to have done. . .How many amongst those that have the ability to perform miracles today are able to do greater things than what Jesus did as he promised his followers even if we are to agree that it is not every body that is supposed to have that ability?

I also pointed out it is due to these misplaced superficial readings that some churches have tried to use them as a sort of 'standard' for who is a believer or not - and according to them, if a Christian does not do any of those signs, then such would not be considered a 'believer', a very said case of fundamentalism and its attendant results. These same folks never get to see what was given in such other passages as 1 Cor. 12:27-31, especially where verses 4-11 already laid it out clearly: there are 'diversities of gifts,' and 'dfferences of administrations', as well 'diversities of operations' even though they are given from the same one Lord through one Spirit to each believer.

They are NOT superficial readings they are the words of Jesus himself if we are to go by what the bible actually says. . .Why should people accept the words of Paul over what Jesus himself is alleged to have said?. . .

Here are the words of Jesus whom the people are very right to believe, because his words are greater than those of Paul whom only claims that Jesus appears to him in visions. . . .Here is Jesus in his own words . . . .

Matthew 17:20
Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Matthew 21:21
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

John 14 12-14
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Again and again we see Jesus using the believe as the only criteria, You believe in him you will have certain powers supposedly. . .Why should any body take Paul's words over those of Jesus? Do the words of Jesus not supersede those of Paul? Paul talks about God appointing people into different position and then goes along asking question that support his position, But Jesus kept making clear statements about belief and what will follow when you believe. . . .Even if we are to go by what Paul says how many of the said miracle workers today have the ability to heal amputees for example as promised by Jesus?

Indeed, such passages as Mark 16 and John 14 under review present us with interesting questions, some of which you reiterated. However, 'them that believe' and 'he that believeth' are not to be taken to mean that all shall perform exactly the same things, nor that every one is supposed by necessity to be a miracle worker of sorts. The prophecies of the OT that directly relate to the charismata of the NT era do not even suppose this 'cloning' that you had supposed from a superficial reading of those texts. An example of such OT prophecies would include Joel 2:28 - surely, such a verse does not suppose that every one of the 'sons and daughters' were to prophesy; nor does it mean that everyone of 'your old men' were to be given divine dreams, etc. The point is that these signs were to be manifested in the Body of believers from individulas who are so gifted with each one of those gifts from the Spirit. If believers and unbelievers alike would see this simple case, it would be unnecessary for me to point out anything here and the grounds for superficial reading of those texts would not even be there in the first place - especially where the whole scenario is explicated in 1 Corinthians 12!

We will always disagree over these things, But again I ask how many amongst those that have the ability to perform miracles today have ever done anything like turning water into wine, walking on water, healing amputees, feeding thousand of people with one plate of food, Raising dead people and calming down storms and tsunamis? Even though Jesus promised that those that have that ability and believe will do greater things than he was to have done? I have never seen any Christian that calmed down a storm and stopped it from causing havoc or walk on water. . . .

Yes, toneyb's question was valid and has been addressed in a valid way so that the idea that Christians are unable to do ANY of these things is not a genuine statement.

It is a VERY genuine statement, and has NOT been answered in any valid way at all. . . .How many of the people around who have the ability to perform miracles have ever turned water into wine even though Jesus promised those that believe the ability to do greater things that were written about him? Why do we not see Christians healing amputees, raising people from the dead, walking on water, calming down storms and tsunamis like Jesus was said to have done talk less of doing any thing greater than that even though he said that those that believe will do greater things than he did?

The real excuse comes from you trying to force literalism into those texts. There is not a single line where any verse there said they should/must be taken in a literal manner either - and the simple way of understanding such Biblical texts is to compare them with other verses and look out for contexts and connections. This I have done, citing 1 Corinthians 12, and you can shout all your excuses till day break and be blue in the face!

Again why is it that those that have the ability to perform miracles are not able to do the ones Jesus was said to have done even though he promised them that they will be able to do greater things than he did? I am yet to hear or see any Christian walk on water or turn water into wine. . . .

I did not apply my own reasons as if it is only in John 14 we ever read of the miraculous or of 'signs'. There is a specific reason why they are called 'signs' and not magic as they atheist superficialist likes to believe. Why 'signs'? Because they point to something other than themselves; and where they appear, we should look out for context by gathering a collective picture. The one who is doing the shouting of a simpleton here is none other than you, where you have chosen to ignore the 1 Corinthians 12 citations for reasons best known to you.

You just keep bringing 1 Corinthians 12. . . . Even though it addresses nothing IMO. . . .

Again, I have no problem with your objections; the area of concern for me is when you make your own objections to be applicable to a sphere wider than your own subjective experience. I noted earlier that my own subjectivity may not go down well with the atheist/naturalist/materialist, but even so I owe them zilch for my own subjective experience - for precisely the same reason as you bear your objections, viz: "about what I see".

OK. . . . .

There are many things I have heard but have not seen; and I'm not one to gullibly applaud one and every case. Even so, I do not go about trying to narrow all such experinces to my own subjectivity of 'what I see' or not see. Outside of my Christian worldview and experiences, there are reports of things that I have no basis to counter-argue - not because I did not 'see' them, but more so because even my own worldview does not deny them! An example happened recently: a Hindu friend recounted an experience where he had a vision of something about to happen - and even though he is not a Christian, sure enough what he had already told two days before came to pass. Just because I did not 'see' it all for myself from start to finish and empirically investigate every single stage of the event, should not mean that I should begin to deny it out of hand.

Ok. . . . .

I was talking about spirituality.

OK. . . . . .

H2O2:
Hmm non believers just want Christians to be as nihilistic as they are

lonely, boring world out there in the world of atheism huh

And on what ridiculous basis did you come to these unfounded conclusion?

akered:
Are you from the Ahmadiya sect of Islam? The belief of this sect of Islam is that Jesus somehow escaped from the cross and fled to Pakistan where he lived to a ripe old age!!!! What religious people of whatever colour will believe when they are locked into that mindset is truly amazing!!!

Abuzo-la-la what say you?. . . .

Abuzo- la-la. . . . .

beneli:
The ‘gods of religion’ you say. The fact that you are always qualifying these ‘gods’ (gods of religion, man made etc) suggests to me that you probably want to tell us some thing about the gods you DO believe in. Perhaps you believe in ‘gods’ that are not ‘man made’ or ‘of religions’? Is that what you are trying to tell us? Why not come out and say it!

Gods of religion all religions are what I am talking about here. . . .

Your prerogative, my dear friend. I don’t agree with you though.

OK, Nothing do you. . . .We will always disagree. . . 

When you say ‘Christians’ remember that you are talking about 2 billion odd people world wide!  The scriptures mean different things to different people. The unifying thing that binds ‘Christians’ together is the belief in the Christ as an incarnation of God on earth through whom salvation is open to all men. Different Christian sects-different individuals within these sects- have different interpretations of the gospels, so saying that ‘Christians re-define who their god is’ , is inaccurate.

Are you really sure about this? Even Christians I know do not even have a basic and universal definition of who their God is. . .Some believe that Jesus is God himself while others believe he is different from God. . .The method by which people can obtain salvation is not even universally accepted by all Christians. . . .Some believe that having faith alone will give you access while others believe you need to work and have faith. . .Others believe that even unbelievers will have access since their God is a merciful God. . . .When I talk about people redefining God I am not talking about all people but those that keep trying to re-define the God of Christianity to fit into certain world views and definitions. . . .

My good friend, mathematics and statistics are tools of the scientific process. It’s the bread and butter of the naturalist scientists and the atheists. The onus is on them to use their tools to prove their assertions not on the Theists. Those that believe in God use faith, something that is completely alien to the word view of the ‘naturalists’.

OK. . . .But there are so many that do not believe based on faith alone. . . Some try to use science to show that it points to the God of the bible. . .There are some people here that try to show us that mathematics proves that the God of the bible exist. I have seen some one trying to use mathematics to prove that Jesus resurrected from the dead. . . . . . .I am not saying that all believers do this but I am trying to tell you that you are not entirely correct when you say that believers believe based on faith alone. . .

That’s why we believe in miracles!
In my worldview, for instance, the world is alive with the symphony of miracles! I see and experience them regularly! A miracle, in case you were wondering, is when natural processes are circumvented due to divine intervention. So when the odds are stacked up against you, my unbelieving friend, try calling on God, He may actually show you mercy and head your ungrateful call!

OK my friend. . . .

[quote author=e-mail link=topic=373023.msg5263522#msg5263522 date=1262818010]Kay 17: You want to if God exist well, answer these questions;

1. Do you believe in the tripartite nature of man as spirit, soul and body?[/quote]NO. . . . .

2. In death, people abandon their body and you here people say he has gone. To were does he goes to. Bear in mind that it is the spirit just left the body.

Is this not just a metaphor? As far as I know no body has been able to provide any evidence to show that there is any part of human consciousness that survives bodily death. . . .

3. Why is it that science cant explain how life comes into a baby in the womb and how it is sniffed out of a man and why does it happen?

There is a scientific explanation for this process. . . The spermatozoa which is a living cell fertilizes the ovary which also contains living cells and the cells keep multiplying till a baby is formed. . . .So life does not really come into a baby as such since the spermatozoa and ovary are living cells. . . .

4. Why do you think man is organized. Someone else head is supposed to be in his hand.

Why should man not be organized? By the way there are millions of people who are born with different types of birth defects and have dis organized bodies. . . .

5. Why is it that man is different from other animals why can we still find monkeys around that science claim YOU originated from? Should monkeys still be in the world again?

I believe you are talking about the evolution theory, No where does it say that humans originated from monkeys. . . . .

6. How are you able to differentiate between right and wrong?

I am able to differentiate between right and wrong because my parents, surrounding culture and experience thought me how to differentiate what is right and what is wrong, and there is nothing like objective right and objective wrong, right and wrong varies from place to place. . . .Morality must be learned in one way or the other. . . .

Answer these questions and I will tell you why I BELIEVE GOD exist. Dont tell me about natural phenomenon because I won't take that. Give me proves.

. . . . .I will give you proofs when you provide proofs for your own claims. . . .

[quote author=e-mail link=topic=373023.msg5262961#msg5262961 date=1262812619]People, people!! Dis tread was not opened for atheist and fanatics. Let me be very clear, if you dont believe in heaven, you are at a loss. As a CHRISTIAN, I stated categorically that there is heaven and ofcourse hell.[/quote]Do you have any evidence to show beside your statement that there is a heaven or a hell?

Secondly, christianity is not a religion, I said it is a believe that works. For God sake, christianity was there before science. Science proves that everything should be understood with human reasoning.

Are you sure about this statement you have made?

Atheist tell me, was anyone in your generation one time a monkey? If yes, what are you metamorphosizing into: a gorilla or chimpazee abi? So in the next 1000 years, a human being will be leg-less or hand-less with 2 heads and one big eye. That will be your future children.

Is this your understanding of evolution? . . .Atheism has nothing to do with evolution in case you do not know. . . there are many atheist like me that do not accept the evolution theory. . .Those of us that live in Europe know very well that there are a lot of christians here that accept the evolution theory and discard the creation hypothesis written in the bible saying it is an allegorical narrative. . . . .Even the previous pope is on record to have stated that Darwinian evolution is a fact. . . . .

Let me jump in here, I have always stated that the Christian god hypothesis is structured in such a away that some of its claims can be objectively observed according to the hypothesis. . . .

viaro:
No, it is not because 'the whole thing' is a myth, because I have experienced the miraculous for myself. Yes, I know that is quite subjective; and I do not owe any atheist or materialist any submission otherwise.

Why does it have to be subjective? The bible does not promise subjective miracles does it?

I often get into trouble with my Christian brethren for my views and understanding of certain things in our Biblical worldview. The example here would be on the one highlighted above in your quote: 'So the question is why is it that Christian can not do any of these things?' First, the Bible does not argue that every Christian is supposed to be a clone of another - and when we read 1 Cor. 12:27-31, we see that it is superfluous to try to imagine that every Christian is supposed to be a miracle worker.

If we are to go by what the bible says every body that believes is supposed to be a miracle worker and do greater things than what jesus was alleged to have done. . It say any one that believes in  jesus will have the ability to perform magic that all can see like jesus did. . . .

John 14 12-14
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.


These passage is very clear and simple, it says any body that believes is supposed to be a magical miracle worker doing even greater things than those that Jesus himself was written to have done. . . .Amongst such things are raising people from the dead, healing amputees, walking on water, turning water into wine, feeding 5000 people with 2 fish and 5 loafs of bread etc. . . .Toneyb's question to me is still valid why are christians unable to do any of the things Jesus promised? I have never seen any christian heal an amputee or turn water into wine. . .  .

However, if we take another example in Mark 16:17-18, we find there a list of phenomena as well:
[list][li]they shall cast out devils[/li]
[li]they shall speak with new tongues[/li]
[li]they shall take up serpents - it shall not hurt them[/li]
[li]if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them[/li]
[li]they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover[/li][/list]

What's the point I'm trying to make? Any careless or superficial reading would produce the assumption that we find in your query where all Christians are supposed to be doing all those things without exceptions. Why? For the reason for which those things were predicated:
[list][li]these signs shall follow them that believe[/li]
[li]'In my Name'[/li][/list]
It therefore would suggest superficially that these signs would be operating in the lives of every Christian ('them that believe') as long as it is done in Jesus' Name ('in my Name'). I know there are some denominations that stress this point and make it look like if a Christian is not showing these signs, then such a person is NOT a believer!

These things or signs are said to follow any one that believes. . .No qualifier of any sought was made believe and you will have the ability to perform such magic. . . .

However, tonyeb, there are a few things to understand there:

(a) those verses were given in a general form and by no means were they intended to be taken as literally applying to every believer at all times. This is especially the case when mirrored against the backdrop of how Biblical prophecies were given - it was simply showing that some would manifest one or some of those signs, some would not, and some would manifest all of them and more. This is quite clear in reading again 1 Cor. 12:27-31.

Same old excuse. . . .There is no where in the passage where it says that they are not supposed to be taken literally. . . .The bible does not make a qualifier or make an exception you are the one that is making the exception for reasons best known to you. . . The bible is very clear believe and you will be able to do greater things than those attributed to Jesus. . . .i.e walk on water, turn water into wine and all the other magical stuffs. . . .

(b) we know today that some of those signs have been actualized in the lives of various believers, such as speaking in tongues, laying on of hands for healing, casting out demons, and being unhurt by deadly things - tonyeb, I have seen and experienced these things myself! I do not have the gift of tongues, but have spoken once in tongues; I have also prayed and laid hands on a friend who got instantly healed; I have not seen the case firsthand where someone drank a deadly stuff and was unhurt (but heard missionary reports about it); as well the case of casting out demons have been clearly demonstrated again and again.

OK. . . . . .I have my reservations but I will let this pass. . . .

If we throw the atheist jokes of just denying stuff aside, I'm sure that some of these things would be self-evident to you if you dared to check for yourself. There's hardly any sense in sitting down in a corner and claim that the Christian cannot do ANY of these things. I wonder sometimes that if the naturalist would be willing to be objective for himself/herself, they would see these things before their very eyes - and that was why I asked you: 'What do you mean 'never recorded in reality'?'

If can come in here I will say that it is not about denial but about what I see, I have never seen any christian doing any thing close to what Jesus was said to have done despite the promise which was passed unto any one that believes. . . . .Jesus was said to have healed a man whose ear was amputated, He promised those that believe in him that ability too, I have never head or seen any Christian heal any amputee before. . . .So toneyb's question is still very valid IMO. . . .

Often, it comes down to a case of the fact that the naturalist does not care so much for the attestation of these phenomena because he has no way of explaining them within the matrix of naturalism. However, I should note that not all naturalists who lean towards atheism actually deny spirituality - they just can't explain some of these phenomena by naturalism and that is why they just exclude them from their worldview.

Are you talking about casting out of demons, speaking in tongues , and miraculous healing?

beneli:
Much as toneyb asks some very interesting questions regarding his interpretation of Christian beliefs, I think that using these questions as a front to avoid the topic in hand is, shall we say, rather disingenuous. Must all atheists really go down that route when cornered with the improbabilities of their assertions?

My atheistic assertion is as simple and it is as follows it is the disbelieve in the existence in the gods of religion because they are man made. . . .

First we read of how Mr. Dawkins admitted that abiogenesis is improbable (perhaps not in those exact words) and then went ahead to give his own interpretation of what a God must be able to do or not do, as if anybody asked him!

I believe that his point is very valid.

At the risk of derailing this thread, let me just say that a lot of the things written in the holy books (the bible for instance) should not be read literarily. When you do so, you lose the meaning. A lot of atheists started on the path of losing their ‘religion’ simply because they were not able to grasp the deeper meanings of the religions they professed, and thus left believing in superficialities and misconceptions that have very little to do with the religions they so like to criticize.

When Christians get cut up and are unable to defend their assertions they begin to re-define who their god is or throw the allegory or literal card. People are now saying that some of the miracles attributed to jesus are not to be taken literally but are mere allegorical narratives. . . How long will these hide and sick continue?. . . .Various stories like the story of Johna and the whale, and many other stuff are now said to be allegorical narratives. . . .Why should people not read the bible literally?. . . .Why are Christians that accept the literal meaning of the bible wrong? So an all knowing and all good deity who is alleged to want every body to get to know him and his wishes inspired men to write words that can not be agreed upon by simple reading?

But that’s not the issue here. The issue here is not about biblical metaphors and misunderstood meanings. The issue is about whether life came out of dust as a random process. Mathematics (or statistics, if you will) says it’s improbable.

And the mathematics or statistics that says life came from a supernatural process is what?

So, the gist here is that for life to come out of dust, something out of the ordinary has to happen. Deists (or Theists, whatever) argue that what happened is that God intervened in natural processes for man to appear. Atheists can go on believing that it was all by chance in spite of the odds stacked against it!

The are odds stacked against birds coming to life fully formed from the uttering of words from and undetected deity as toneyb has said but theist can go ahead believing it all the want despite all the odds stacked against it. . . .

Krayola:
Now u sound like a fundamentalist. A Christian fundamentalist is one who takes everything in the bible literally. A lot of the stuff was never supposed to be taken literally. 2000 years ago stories were not told for facts and historicity of events, but to teach lessons.

I understand what you are saying but do most of the people that practice these religions see things like you do? The answer is NO. . . .You call them fundamentalist but I call them believers. . .  . . . .Again I understand what you are saying and I agree very much with it. . . .

Krayola:
hahaha. That is what u would love so u can just throw those your arguments and make them look silly, abi? You want all christians to fit into your box labelled "silly, unreasonable and straight up ignorant" abi?

WHen I say "know the bible inside out " I don't just mean memorizing the bible, but understanding it's origin, how it came together. understanding the Hebrew culture and what a lot of those stories represent. Understanding the context in which those things were said. So when u throw stuff like the virgin birth, or the flood etc at them, they will make u feel silly for even suggesting that that discredits the christian faith. Because an ancient audience would have understood the symbolism of that story, and not taken it literally. when u use arguments like that to try to discredit Christianity, you are basing your argument on the same premises you call the fundamentalists silly for subscribing to.

Any educated adult, IMO, that believes a virgin had a child, or some guy lived in the belly of a fish, or that someone walked on water, the earth was created in 6 days etc, has serious mental issues. Whether Christian Muslim Shango worshipper, whateva. So, if rather than trying to contextualize these stories, people seek to spend all their energy defending fantastic stuff, that is infantile religion, IMO.    A lot of people do not believe in that stuff, but they are not vocal about their faiths. . . they don't go around screaming Jesus this and Holy spirit that every chance they get. . . they just practice their faith quietly. I'm sure u know that empty barrels make the most noise. The loudest religionists are usually the most clueless.

BTW that applies to atheists too 

So what you are saying in essence is that a person that believe in the virgin birth or that johnah survived in a fish for 3 days is a fundamentalist eh?. . . . . . .I've gat news for you. . . That is what MAJORITY of christians believe. . . . .Do you really think that the writers of the bible really do not think that those things happened? Why are you labelling people as fundamentalist for believing in the virgin birth or that dead rose from the dead and walked the street of jerusalem  when jesus was allegedly killed? is that not what the bible ACTUALLY says?. . . . does the hadith not say that mohammed flew into heaven on the back of a white horse from jerusalem? Is that not what their religion teaches? Why do you keep calling people that actually believe in what their religion teaches them fundamentalist?. . . . . . . .So dominic Crossan is your example of a religionist eh? . . . .Karyola my man. . . .nothing do you. . . .

Krayola:
haha. . The majority of Christians in my neck of the woods are not fundamentalists.

I bet the majority of christians in your neck of woods believe in the second coming of jesus, they also believe in the alleged magical miracles attributed to jesus, they believe that jesus was born of a virgin, they believe that they will go and be with jesus when they die, the believe in the stories of the bible and they also believe in its moral teachings. . . .if they do then they are no different from the people bill maher interviewed in the documentary. . . . .If they don't then they have no need calling themselves christains because that is what christainity is all about. . . .

I didnt use Dominic crossan, borg etc as the standard for Christianity. I said if Maher, or Dawkins, or whoever wanted to debate religion with a religionist, they should go and try those stunts they pull with people like that and see what happens. Those are people that know the bible inside out, and will rip all those sensationalist arguments  to shreds.

What do you mean by the know the bible inside out? . . . .I know what you are trying to say but as far as I am concerned Dominic Crossan is NOT a christian, What kind of person will call himself a Christian and not believe that Jesus was not born of a virgin? . . . .

What is the average Christian?

The average christian is some one that believe in what the bible really says and these are that all life was created by god, that sin came into the world because some serpent decieved some woman to eat from a tree of knowledge, that jesus died and rose again from the dead to save mankind from  the biblegod's wrath and eternal punishment and that if they die they will go to heaven to be with jesus. . . .How is that different from the view which the people in the video hold?. . . .Are the people that hold these views what you can fundamentalist?. . .You call the christians he interviewed in the documentary fundamentalist because of what exactly?. . . . .

I know he did interviewed some crazy wackos like the jewish rabbi that went to Iran to meet with the Iranian preseident and the deluded guy that believes he is jesus. . . 

Krayola:
My point is that if u want to make an argument against fundamentalists, make it. You can't just label all Christians as fundamentalists.  Your argument above doesn't mean much. A lot of Nigerians are criminals, does that make most Nigerians criminals? Bill Maher made a case against fundamentalists, and labelled it, presented it, and marketed it as a case against religion as a whole. If not that he is a comedian, that would be straight up deceit.

The dynamics of most people groups tell us that they are hardly ever homogeneous. For any intellectual to come and try to paint any group as such is an insult to our intelligence, and I'm disappointed at the way a lot of people subscribe to, and endorse such gross over-generalizations. It does too much to hurt your credibility. Make your case against fundamentalists. . . stop trying to label every religionists as silly. That is dishonest.

Why do you keep labelling the people in the video as fundamentalist?. . .These are your average Christians. . .MAJORITY of Christians believe what these people believe. . .Do your think an avarage Christian will agree with Dominic Crossan?. . . . . . .The people he interviewed in those vidoes are your average Christians. . . .An average Christian believes that homosextuality is a sin, An average christian believes in the virgin birth, an average christian believes in talking donkey, talking snakes, global flood, and the allaged miracles of jesus, does an average christian believe in the second coming of jesus and that the bible is the word of god? YES so what EXACTLY are you saying? Is it an average christian that you are labelling a fundamentalist? . . . .Does an average muslim believe that homosexality is a sin? YES . . .does an average moslem believes that all Jews deserve to die?YES. Why? because that is what Islam teaches so what the heck are you saying? .

Abu Zola:
Thank God am a muslim

The la-la is busy thanking some imaginary deity that he is deluded. . . . .

To kill the infidels and get the many virgins that were promised him in Aljanah. . . . .

Krayola what is the point you are trying to put across exactly? How many christians really share the views of Dominic Crossons,  Marcus Borg, Bishop Spong, Willaim Lane Craig etc? What percentage of Christianity do such scholars constitute? How many Christians will willingly throw the bible away just because they want to use reason and political correctness? You can start from nairaland. . . .95 percent of the Christians here believe in a global flood, do these scholars believe in any of these things? Does the bible NOT say that there was a global flood? why are people wrong in believing what the bible says? What makes the view of this so called scholars better than what the bible actually says?. . . .Do you think your avarage christian will accept or agree with Dominic Crossans  on the bible? 99% of the Christians here will label him a heretic and a child of Satan.

Do majority of moslems believe what is written in the Koran? YES they do so why should they accept the views of some politically correct apologist over what is actually written in the koran? What is truly wrong with biblical or koranic literalism? Where is it written in any of the books that any thing that is written in there is NOT supposed to be taken literally? When the bible says that Yahweh came down from heaven fought with men, killed them stained his cloth with their blood and was boasting that he did it alone do you think the writer was not truly writing what he truly felt? Why should people not take that as a literal event? Do you think the person that wrote some of the nonsense in the koran expected people to give it an interpretation and life of its own? Why should people NOT take the bible literally? Do you think the people that wrote it expected others to read it other wise? If you think John Dominic Crossan, or marcus Borg view of the bible or Christianity constitute any reasonable precentage of Christians then you really do not know what you are talking about. . . . .By the way on what basis do you declare that Adeboye is not a credible authority on Christianity?

jagunlabi:
It depends on the topics discussed.If people are only interested in discussing obsolete scientific topics just to show off their scientific knowledge, then the forum will be of a short lifespan.But it does not have to be that way for there are so many scientific topics that laymen like myself can find interesting to follow.

How about topics like;
1)The global warming,the veracity of the  "science" behind it, and the climategate scandal.
2)The wormhole theory
3)The human heart as being more than just a blood pumping organ, but as the strongest electromagnetic field generator in the human anatomy, the "TUBE TAURUS" and the possible link with the planet's electromagnetic field.What does it all mean for mankind?
4)Will there be a reversal of earth's electromagnetic field?

Very true, topics about global warming and the science behind it will be good for discussion, others related to astronomy and discussions like colliding galaxies will be interesting I believe. . . .

Brilliant. . . .

MUNEER2:
You are seemingly gonna make a fantastic pastor in your church, but i hope you've not been banished from your church by your fellow sheep, because the way you pray for yourself is quite questionable. . . you don't need to tell me you are retard, your prayers has said it all

Do the blood thirsty slaves of allah that go on suicide missions pray to allah for success? YES. . .do they chant allahuakbar before detonating their bombs? YES, so what the heck are you saying?. . . .I have been to mosques in Nigeria where you hear them pray to allah to destroy his enemies(America and Israel) . . . .I was just trying to remind allah that he needs to kill his enemies for calling his religion the religion of the devil. . .

muhsin:
The guy is not a Christian. He's an athiest=worst than a Christian. Thus don't expect anything sensible in his posts.

I never knew that moslems were better than christians and atheists. . . .Interesting. . . .DELUDED FOOOL. . . .

muhsin:
You can say more than that crap, mazaje. 

Your evidence to show that the koran is the words and thoughts of a deity not men is what? A simple reading of the koran says that allah knows nothing about science no?

I will love to see a section mainly for science and scientific discussions. . . . .Personally I am interested in scientific discoveries like the Nano X-ray tube and Pathological proteins produce polymers.

sauer:
I think I've seen one or two posts viaro posts and it was on dark matter (correct?)
I read some things lately on New Scientist, about devices being built to detect dark matter. It's quite clever what they aim to do. Make these weak particles interact and observe the results. But has anyone stopped to think this universal search for dark matter is just like the then late 19th century search for the infamous ether?

It might turn out to be just like the ether thing. . . 

Please no silly religious poster posting stuffs like god is showing himself using dark matter! I'll delete such posts my self

Which of the gods is dark matter since there are so many gods. . .  . .  .

Interesting movie. . .Thanks for the link sauer. . . .

Abu Zola:
Pray for guidance you slowpoke

Guidance on how to detonate bombs on airplanes?. . .Ok lets pray. . .Ya allahu pls guide your slaves and make them successful next time when they go on suicide missions on airplanes. . . .

Abu Zola:
Lets keep praying for the boy (focused)

Ok lets pray. . .Ya allahu pls kill focused for calling your religion a product of the devil. . . . . . . .

Abu Zola:
Am not a killer and am not capable, i will engage when naija is on the path

You will engage in suicide bombing or what you la-la man?. . .Pls hurry up and blow the US embassy in naija. . . Your heavenly virgins can not wait to have a feel of your Alzakari. . . .

Kay 17:
the blindfold of religion and superstition.

Delusion. . . .Actually prayer is the last thing Nigeria and Nigerians need at this point in time. . . . .What ever man needs to do must be done by man himself with hard work, dedication and right attitude. . .Mythical deities do not help people solve their problems at all. . .

5. Complete harmony exists between what the Qur’ân says regarding the physical world and what has been discovered by modern science. This has been a source of amazement for a number of contemporary western researchers. Though the Qur’ân makes mention of a number of very specific scientific issues – from fields such as embryology, oceanography, and astronomy – it does not contradict any scientific fact.

Even a blind man that knows how to read knows very well that there are quite a lot of scientific errors in the koran. . . .Are meteorites really spears that allah throw at the jinns that go about trying to eaves drop in Aljanah?. . .

Pls where is the evidence to show that the koran was not written by men? The koran reads exactly like any book that was written during the period it was written and complied. By the way what has a book that is full of plagiarized stories got to do with anything?