₦airaland Forum

toneyb:
The whole story of the Fall of Man, i.e Adam and Eve being tempted by the serpent in the garden of Eden into eating the forbidden fruit, with predictable results appears to be a series of “just so” stories this whole tale of how snakes came to crawl on the ground without legs, childbirth is painful, and how come men have to do all the hard work is just to funny, these passages seem exactly the same as “How The Zebra Got Its Stripes” and the likes.The Bible is full of “just so” stories like this that makes me wonder why intelligent people believe these things as historical events. The explanation of how the rainbow came to be is also very crass and ridiculous — are we really to believe that light did not refract as it enters the surface of the water droplets or raindrop  prior to Noah’s flood?(Since refraction of light causes rainbow) Similarly, the well-known Tower of Babel story again purports to tell us how come so many people speak different languages. How is any of this any different than, for example, the story of Prometheus bringing fire to mankind? This stories are just too funny.

what do you have to say about other stories that have stars fighting in battles alongside humans

Judges 5:20

From the heavens the stars fought,
from their courses they fought against Sisera

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=268892.msg3834626#msg3834626 date=1241697890]Morality has evolved? How do you mean?[/quote]i can't believe you are asking this question. . . .100 years ago about 97 percent of american were against interracial marriage. . .200 years ago majority of americans were for slavery. . .50 years ago quite a large percentage of the american population were against gay marriage or union. . . now only 52 percent are against it. . . in the next 50 years almost every body will be for it and the people against it will be in the minority. . . .

Bastage:
I have a problem with this.
To me, the Old Testament atrocities perpetrated by the Jews in the name of their god were immoral - even though we can claim that they were committed to help them survive better.

of course they were very immoral but i gave the example to show you how man shapes his morality. . . man's morality is purely based on survival. . .if we are to believe what is written in the hebrew bible then it is obvious that the hebrews acted immoral by killing, stealing, and taking the women of their neighbours because it will better their survival.

If you believe not, what makes an atheist any different from a believer? Believers justify acts through their God (which in this case was helping the Hebrews survive). Atheists justify the same sort of acts by saying that they were necessary for survival.
In this case, all you're doing is just cutting out the middle man.

an atheist is not better than a believer. . .an atheist also shapes his morals according to what will best enable him survive. . .

Is it not possible to commit an endless stream of immoral acts in the quest for survival? IE: Shitting on your brother in a bid to get ahead.  And are there not times when morality will end that survival? IE: Taking a bullet for someone.
Or is morality totally relative to each individual?

doing good is almost compulsory because it helps people survive better. . .if i do go to you there is that tendency that you will do good to me. . .if i help you today there is also that tendency that you will help me tomorrow and by doing good to each other we will both better enhance our survival. . .the same thing goes for evil. . .if all i do to you is evil, you will also pay me in kind and we will end up destroying each other so that no body gains anything. . . .so altruism enhances better survival. . . .by the way when we love people we also learn to sacrifice for them. . .atheist, moslems, christians, hindus etc are all known to have taken a bullet for their loved ones in one way or the other. . . .committing an endless stream of immoral acts in the quest for survival is conter productive. . .because the people you are shitting on will definitely pay you back in kind when they have the opportunity. . .so that no one gains anything at the end. . .

good. . . .qestion i must say. . . .bastage

Bastage:
This leads me onto a question:

If a man has the inherent capacity to sin, does that make him a sinner?

I'd particularly like to hear the atheistic view on this as well, so let me rephrase it in another way.

If man has the inherent capacity to commit immoral acts, does that make him immoral?

morality in my view (and i believe i can speak for most atheist) evolves all the time. . .objective moral values are not entirely universal and they keep on changing all the time. . .this it self is can be seen when you read the bible. . .the morals of the bible god changed from love yourselves(israelites) and not your neighbours(non-israelites) to love yourself and your neigbhours. . .the morality of the bible god and his chosen men changed from kill the unbelivers and have nothing to do with them(marriage, treties etc) to preach to the unbelievers and engage them. . . .the bible god began by giving very sexist laws that favour men to less sexist laws. . .and on and on and on. . . .man is not necessarily immoral. . . man's basic functon is survival and he always try to shape his morality in a way that will best enable him to survive. . .when the ancient jews saw that there was no need to form any partnership with their neighbours and that taking what belongs to their neighbours will better their suvival their warrior and tribal god yahweh told them to kill them all and take what belongs to them (land, women, animals etc). . .when they later realize that doing business with their neigbhours will help them survive better their god changed. and encoraged them to be all inclusive and preach to the gentiles. . . .so all men shape their morals according to how it will best help them survive. . . if doing wrong will help man survive better he will do wrong to survive and if doing good will help him survive better he will do good to survive. . . .so man is not necessarily immoral it all depends on what makes him survive best

davidylan:
That is total BS. Pls do us a favour of backing up these claims you declare is "according to the bible".

what do you mean that this is total BS? does your bible not tell you that you are fighting a spiritual battle against satan and his agents who want to drag you away from god by tempting you and making you disobey your gods commands?. . .

Ephesians 6: 10-12 “Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

do christians not give jesus as their  ultimate example for spiritual warfare. christians always encougage themselves to observe how jesus handled direct attacks from satan when he was tempted by satan in the wilderness . don't christians always encourage each other and tell each other that since  jesus could stand the  lies and deceits of the devil they should be able to do the same since his spirit lives in them? why do christians pray to their god to help them or deliver them from the temptation of the devil if he is not the one that makes people to sin according to the bible? why do christians spend time praying againt the devil?

Bastage:
@ Mazaje.

If most Christians in Europe take responsibility for their own sins doesn't that show a schism in thinking between themselves and the Catholic Church on the subject? Otherwise they'd be blaming Adam and Eve, wouldn't they?
Doesn't that therefore go at least part way to confirming my opening statement?

i think you are misunderstanding what i was trying to point out. . . .european christians mostly do not really believe in everything that the bible says. . .take for instance the 7 day creation story. . .most of the christians(white people) that i know here do not believe in it. . .even some christian bible believing  christian scholars do not agree with some of the things in the bible and will gladly point it out. . .i attended a debate here last week between a christain and an atheist on the existence of god and i was shocked when the christian agreed that the appearance of the dead jewish saints that walked the streets of jerusalem when jesus was crucified that matthew wrote about in his gospel is a legend which never happened, because it would have been written about by josephus, pliny and the other first centuary jewish writers if any thing like that ever happened besides that story he said is only found in the gospel of matthew and no where else in the world so it is a legend(i was shocked that a christain will admit that and still call himself a christian). . .the point is because european christian refuse to accept some bible facts doesn't mean that the facts they negate are bible facts. . . .original sin is a well attested biblical fact. . . .there are a lot of christians that blame eve and satan for bring sin into the world. . .go and interview 100 nigerian and american christians and they will agree with me that the bible implies or talks about an original sin. . . .

davidylan:
Because you really havent been reading the bible.

Ez 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

i can see that when ever it pleases you to quote from the old testament you do that . . .who causes people to sin according to the bible? SATAN. . . so all you quotes are bogus because according to the bible the devil is the one that makes people to sin. . . he was the one that made eve to disobey god. . . .the point i was trying to make was that the bible clearly says that satan is the one that is responsible for people committing sin because he tempts them all the time. . .take the devil away and the bible says there will be no sin. . . .re-read my previous post and try to understand what i was saying. . .

Image123:
Genesis2v15 suggests that Adam was capable of keeping and maintaining a v.big garden.

there is no where genesis says that. . . .how can he be capable of maintaining a very big garden when he does not even know how to make cloths for himself after he was driven out of the garden. . . .

He was not insane or an slowpoke who if he committed a crime,we might still argue that he can't be fully responsible for his actions as he doesn't know what He's doing.Adam had to make decisions daily,He was the prince of the world.He had it at His feet.He was mentally stable enough to have communion with God before the fall.He knew God,he knew His purposes,he knew God's will had the ability to be married.He was not sick,neither was he a child.

how can he commit a crime when he doesn't know what a crime is?. . . .where does the bible say that he knew god's will? the bible clearly depicts adam and eve as children that were totally dependent on their god for everything. . . all the did was live in the garden and god provided all there needs. . . they did not even know what good or evil is. . . meaning they did not know what it means to do a good act or a bad act. . . .they were just like infants that were totally dependent on their mothers for survival. . . .that is how the bible puts it. . . .  

Genesis2v19 says Adam named every living creature,I believe that takes high intelligence,ability to DISTINGUISH and be distinctive. He was capable of obedience and disobedience to commands and directives.

how does giving living creatures names negate the fact that the bible says that they had no knowledge of good  and evil? there were without that knowledge what part of it don't you understand?

Genesis2v16,17 reveals 'And the Lord God COMMANDED THE MAN ,saying,Of every tree of the garden thou may freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,thou shall not eat of it:for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shall surely die. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil actually connotes something deeper than the phrase 'knowledge of good and evil'.Also in the garden was the tree of life which also connotes something deeper than the word 'life' as you know it.

you can command your 8 month old baby not to cry in the night but how does that make him know that crying in the night is wrong when he does not even know that crying in the night is a bad thing in the first place. . .the fact according to the bible is that they do not know the difference between good and evil until after they had eaten the fruit. . . .  

To help you,lets just say that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represented death while the tree of life represented life. They were both in the same garden,one was forbidden,the other was up for grabs. It is not news that Adam failed his test.When you fail you either repeat,get demoted or drop out.What is news is that the last Adam(Jesus Christ) passed his test.He came to this world and was yet without sin,though tempted and tried.Any one who follows Jesus has passed the test already.Thats why we continue to shout the news,be a follower of Jesus.He is up for grabs.you can choose Him today.You can have life,eternal life.the only thing you have to do is believe,please.

even if i am to agree with your analogy i must say that there is a great difference between the first adam and the second adam(jesus). . .jesus knew the difference between right and wrong so he knew that disobedience is wrong while the first adam did not. . .besides you analogy doesn't make any sense. . .you are just making things up because there is no where the bible says that jesus is the second adam. . . the bible says that jesus is god himself. . . so how can god fail the test which he set for himself. . .   . . . i am only trying to reason the entire story out and it it clearly does not make any sense. . .there is no sense in punishing people when they clearly do not even know the difference between right(obedience) and wrong(disobedience)

Bastage:
@ Mazage

I honestly doubt that would be the case and in my experiences of discussing morality with people, the answer is always nearly "Because I'm human".
People really do tend to be truthful and recognise their own failing when answering the question and don't heap the blame on Eve!!! The majority wouldn't even blame it on the devil (although he's not the issue here - Original Sin is about Eve's failure to obey rather than Satan's tempting her). In these days, people are taught to be much more reponsible for their own actions and you'll probably find that the number of people holding the Orthodox view has sky-rocketed in the past 100 years or so.

i very well understand what you are saying. . . most christians here(europe) take responsibility for their actions i must say. . .regardless of what the bible tells them about them being tempted by the devil. . .in european churches people are taught to take responsibilities for their actions and not blame it on the devil or demons. . . but that it self is contrary to what the bible teaches. . .the bible talks a lot about satan and his agents tempting people and making them do bad things. . it is all over the bible. . .nigerian christians unlike the european christian agree very much with what the bible says. . .

If that's not the case, tell me of your experiences. How many Christians have you personally heard blame any immoral act that they've committed on the eating of the apple? How many have you heard put their hand up and accept that they are to blame for their own greed, avarice, laziness, etc? I'm talking about your personal experience here, not what you merely believe in or what you've read on the net.
Maybe we run in different circles but the latter definitely outnumber the former in my experience.

people might not directly blame eve for their greed, avarice etc but they still believe that sin came into the world through her actions. . .that remains a basic christian fact according to the bible. . . .i think you have lived in europe for too long. . . european christians do not even believe in the adam and eve story. . .that entire story is just an allegory as far as they are concerned. . . .

duduspace:
I don't know about the accusations against him but he actually made me stop beleiving in miracles, there was this episode of his TV program I watched (before the authorities stopped such lies being shown on TV) it was about a man supposedly blind from birth who received his sight in one of his crusades. Oyakhilome then asked (to confirm the authenticity of the miracle) what the colour of the shirt he was wearing was and the man replied "Blue".
You can draw your own conclusions on why I stopped beleiving in such miracles. But the question Oyakhilome needs to answer is how come a man blind from birth recognized the colour blue (it is sickening that such obviously blatant lies still fool people in Nigeria)

How I wish there was a you-tube clip available of that crusade to paste here.

Another, that made me stop going to redemption camp was an Holy Ghost Festival night (2004 or 2005) when Pastor Adeboye was taking testimonies and a man dumb from birth supposedly started speaking and he spoke in perfect, flawless english and to add insult to injury Pastor Adeboye then mentioned that God did not only give him the power of speech but flawless diction. That was the last straw, I wanted nothing to do with such a congregation of idiots no matter how many they were.

the christian god is a god of wonders . . . he enables pastors(but not ordinary church goers) to travel for more than 300km on an empty tank. . .despite all the so called miracle stories we hear all the time why is it that god can not heal amputees? what does god have against amputees that he can not heal them and make their limbs grow back? why are miracles things that will always happen any way?

Bastage:
OK. Here's one for you.
Go out and ask a hundred regular Christians why they sin.

I absolutely guarantee that the majority of the replies will be "Because I'm human" rather than "Because Eve ate an apple".

you are getting it wrong here. . . if you ask any christian how sin got into the world he/she will refer you to the eve and serpent story. . . that is a basic christian principle. . . .christians believe that they sin because satan is always on the offensive trying to lead them away from their god not because they are human. . . ask any christian why he/she sin and he/she will point to the devil and blame him for tempting him/her. . . .  

Without even knowing it, the vast majority of those Christians will be following the Orthodox view rather than the version of Original Sin preached by the Catholic Church.

majority of christians believe in the original sin as the way sin got into the world. . . not as you are putting it. . . .

[flash=425,355]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H19hD_5t9r4-c&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]

huxley:
He is not an orthodox Christian but a   Marcionite

Batage are you still claiming to be a christian?  i have never seen a christian that  vehemently denies the old testament god like you do. . . .i will agree with you that not all creeds of christianity are exactly the same. . . .but majority of christians believe in the original sin hypothesis. . .

duduspace:
What more do we need to add? your holy book speaks for itself hence the need for such violence to cram it down people's throat.
Your false prophet was a very bad copy artist, if Mohammed should attempt what he did then in this day and age he would be sued for infringing on copyright and then producing a sub-standard work.

the problem is that moslems believe that allah sent the torah to the jews. . . i just can't understand how they still believe this lie. . .they also believe that allah gave jesus the injil(gospels) which were later corrupted by the christians. . . . where was allah when christians were busy corrupting his word for over 600 years before he sent mohammed? who were the prophets of allah in the arabian world? why do moslems believe this lie that jews love killing their prophets? can any moslem tell me any prophet that was killed by the jews? prophet mohammed and his cronies are some of the most clever people to have ever lived i must say, because they very successfully stole other peoples god and made him theirs. . .

babs787:
Manmustwac,please what flaws have they identified and you could do the needful by directing to where they both displayed 'intelligence'. Thanks

how can you see the flaws in the koran when it is the infallible word of allah. . . .  . . . you guys are very funny. . . .if objective moral values exist then allah does not exist simple. . .

manmustwac:
So its not the bible thats flawed its the men who wrote the bible who are flawed and since its the men who wrote the bible are flawed. Dose mean that what they actually wrote in the bible is not flawed Hmmm sounds confusing to me.

you have to ask noetic what it means. . . noetic where are u?

manmustwac:
i don't understand how davidylan and noetic can spot the flaws in islam but are totally blind to the flaws in christianity.  And if you tell them that they're deluded its as if they're blind to what youe saying.

how can the bible be flawed when it is the word of god?. . .according to neotic all the flaws in the bible are the flaws of the alleged writers of the bible not the flaws of the bible it self. . . . then again he gets angry when he is being called a goon. . . .

Image123:
@huxley
You're the one who feels that it is discrimination na.the place you quoted says God doesn't want people with blemish/abnormal people from Aaron's family to come to God's house (the altar or within the veil) to offer offerings.You're the one who has a problem with that,God doesn't and I don't.I believe its just logic that you choose who you want to come into and serve you in your house.When you call that discrimination,then its either you're desperate or something else.There are qualifications to be met for leadership, mr

when people discriminate it is wrong but when god does it it is right eh? and the same god is the source of human morality?

toneyb:
Where is neotic?   .

perhaps on the islamic thread doing battle with the slaves of allah. . . .he has joined his brother in the lying for jesus movement davidylan. . . .

duduspace:
@Jagunlabi

I wonder o "Highly Intelligent beings" but no knowledge of good and evil sounds like a contradiction in terms. I wonder if Image123 intelligent? or is it religion making a monkey out of otherwise reasonable and rational human beings again?

i wonder ooo. . . i watched a debate today between a christian apologist professor and an atheist scientist on the origin of life and evolution. i was shocked the way that religion had made monkey of the otherwise very intelligent christian professor who even though he tried to run away from the 7 days creation account and some of the mythologies like the noah's ark but still. . . it was a mess. . .

Image123:
A confused question in itself.Adam and Eve knew the consequences of their actions.They knew God's command.Genesis2v16,17.Adam and Eve were said to be highly intelligent beings who had dominion and authority over the whole planet,

what is this . where in the bible does it say that adam and eve knew the consequences of their actions? intelligent beings that could did not even know that there were naked? intelligent beings that did not even know their right from their left? how can they know the consequences of their actions when they do not even know the difference between good and bad? adam and eve were very intelligent yet they could not sew cloths for themselves even after the bible god drove them out of the garden?

They were said to be in charge of a wide area of land,not a hut as you might vainly imagine.FYI,they were not insane or imbeciles.They were capable of making decisions,not just eating sand and wood 'because they don't know good and evil'

.

what decision were they capable of making if we are to agree with the biblical narrative? god according to the bible told them not to to eat of the fruit which they did not satan came and convinced them and they ate of the fruit how then have they displayed any ability of being able to make decisions? how can you make decisions when you don't know weather the decision is right or wrong?

I wouldn't like to dwell on that.you believe you're wise.Wise people don't waste time speculating,pondering and crying over spilt milk.They move on.find the solution.
The solution to the fall of man,Adam and Eve,still remains Jesus the Messiah.He has come to save us from the fall and its consequences.he has come to give us real life,hope,joy and satisfaction.All you need to do is embrace Him,accept Him and believe Him

you want people to believe in a story that makes no sense?   . lets assume i believe in the adam and eve story. . .why would an omniscient, merciful god punish people for what they do not know after leaving them vulnerable and allowing his enemy to get to them and deceive them. the fact that they were deceived makes the whole story more absurd and ridiculous. . .coupled with the fact that they did not even know that what they did was wrong. . . .

noetic:
I can speak for Christians. perfection is impossible, that's why we are given GRACE.

I can see that you that you throw lies around any time you feel it will serve you and keep you in your bubble of delusion. . . does the bible not tell you that perfection can be achieved? did jesus not tell his followers to be perfect?

Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect..

When will thou stop telling lies for jesus?

bastage is not a christian. . . he is just pulling your legs . . . .

PDP power. . . .

esensed:
Issue of His appearance

- Luke says that Jesus first appeared in Jerusalem to the eleven disciples. (Luke 24:33, 35, 37)
- Matthew says it was at Galilee on a mountain. (Matthew 28:16)

Haba mr. horus, you want to put something that is not stated. In luke’s account, please read all the chapter, it wasn’t to the twelve but to the two first, some miles from Jerusalem and later, they returned after seeing Him they went to inform the other disciples and jesus appeared to them including the 2 disciples on the road to Emmaus.

In matthew, here all the disciples – the two on Emmaus road, mary Magdalene who saw Him in the grave yard, the disciples in the locked room where He appeared to them, all were in gallilee where they saw Him going to heaven. Acts 1

So sorry He does not contradict himself.


have a God blessed day!

i'll advice you to re-read the passages again. . . its clear you haven't. . . .

myths are not written to make any sense. . . they are only written to be believed. . . .the more you look at the christain argument the more absurd and ridiculous it gets. . .good one toneyb. . . .

duduspace:
@mazaje

I find this particularly intriguing and a bit disturbing.

in response to yur statement about god being perfect. WTF is this stuff about his pleasure? pleasure

Is he implying that human beings were created in a wanking fit from God? what a despicable God if this is what he considers pleasure, psychopath does not even begin to describe him.

God pleasuring himself, what a laugh.

sure god pleasuring himself with a laugh when he see the six million jews being killed by hitler or when he send a tsunami as christians believe to kill off about 300,000 people in asia. . . .or when he sits down and does nothing when small pox that also comes from him as christains believe wiped away about 500million people in the world. . . .read the old testament and you will realize that yahweh is really a blood thirsty and dangerous deity. . . .

@ duduspace they most always give excuses no matter how nonsensical they are. . . take for instance the non sense and meaningless mostly unprovoked killings of people that was carried out by yahweh and his foot soldiers in the old testament or some of the ridiuclous laws like slavery or stoning to death disobedient children or cutting of the hands of women that go to rescue their husbands from his assailants. . .when christians are cornered and can not rationalize or provide meaningful answers to all the nonsense and stupidity they start saying ridiculous things like allah did the same in the koran too. . .or that god can not be understood, u need his holy spirit in other to understand all those things. . .or that the ways of god is different from that of men. . .what holy spirit does a person need to not know that it is wrong to advocate slavery or that it is completely stupid and irrational to stone to death disobedient kids or kill 42 children because they played with a prophet?. . . .then again they will say that jesus came and changed all those laws but the same bible says that god is not a man that he should change his mind. . . or that god is the same yesterday, today and forever. . .he never changes. . . the whole web of lies and delusion is ridiculous. . . . .

noetic:
2 things usually happen whenever I ignore u in a thread.
U go to another thread and lie about what transpired. e.g u came here to LIE that u corrected my use of words. Another time u lied about me not subscribing to an article i posted.
And the second thing that happens is, neutral observers (not misled hypocrites called atheists) tend to take ur uniformed postulations for facts.

So all I can do is to reply when I can, but it doesnt change the fact that ur posts spark . . . . . .

i never lied you did all the things i said you did. . . .do you want use to go back to those arguments again?

werent u taught never to answer a question with a question. Just tell me IF U BELIEVE IN THE EXISTENCE OF FILI-BAN-GBASKI?

not until you tell me what his ontology is. . .fili-ban-gbaski could mean water. . .so i that case i will have to believe water exist. . .

what are u talking about?

u started by attempting to tell me ur convictions, what has that got to do with the universe?
WHAT ARE THE CONVICTIONS OF "NATURALISM"?

i have already told you that long time ago what more do you want? re-read my post. . . . . .naturalism best explain the world in which we live in. . .which requires no need for a god,naturalism is the belief that there is nothing supernatural, naturalism included secularism, agnosticism, scientific method of evaluation. .  .atheism. . . .big bang as the origin of the universe, evolution and natural selection (parts of which i agree with) as responsible for the variety of organisms. . .simple chemical reactions as the origin of life. . .natural disasters because we live in an unintelligible planet as opposed to natural disasters being caused by god or a perfect universe that is being controlled by one deity. . . .the fact that harm affects us all as opposed to the righteous being protected by their gods because that is not true. . .  

very irrelevant. Solomon was the wisest man in his time, and he was giving his opinion on the constant changes that define life. His statement aint a biblical fact about the earth's movement. I believe u can do better.

But how does the earth's movement according to solomon, buttress or disprove the CONVICTIONS of "naturalism."?
Mazaje, pls be focused.

there is no lie you guys won't throw around when lying for jesus as toneyb always says. . . .what is this nonsense you have written here? do you guys not go around telling people that the bible is the infallible, and perfect word of god? do you guys not go around saying that god himself inspired the writers of the bible to write what HE WANTS them to write? so what nonsense is this you are saying? did solomon not write the nonsense he wrote under the inspiration of the bible god as you guys love saying? why is it that when you guys see what is factually not true in the bible or things that completely senseless you resort to this kind of shenanigans?  here it is in the palms once again for you. . . .

Psa Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,  
Psa 19:5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course.  
Psa 19:6 It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.

here it is again in the so called psalms of david where he was inspired by the bible god to write things that are factually not true. . . . .by the way today we know that some parts of the universe are totally unaffected by our sun. so do you agree that the people that wrote the bible were inspired by the bible god to write down what he wants them to write down or not? you can't have it both ways. . . .

God has never been used to fill the gap for the things we dont know.

god has always been used to fill in the gaps in the bible and in most of ancient history. . .even the bible attest to it, the writers of the bible taught earth quakes, floods, tsunamis, lighting were all caused by god and the wrote extensively about it. . . now we know that is is a lie. . . no god causes tusnami, earth quake or lightning. . . .it has now been discovered that natural disasters like hurricane and typhoons can be made impotent by changing the atmospheric tempreture around the body of water once the begin to build and they will not be able to build again. . .the device that will alter the tempreture is what  scientist are presently working on and once they have completed their work, there will be no more hurricanes in places of the world that can afford to by the machines and use them. . . if god is what causes hurricane are you now telling me that humans can now alter his doing and intentions with scientific devices? same goes to disease and plagues that were once taught to be caused by god or demons. . . now we know that unintelligible micro organisms cause diseases. . . not gods or demons. . .

Do u know how many times the words "may" "possibly" "could" are used in scientific peer-review articles or findings?
while illiteracy might be responsible for certain man-given attributes to GOD, it does not deny the existence or potency of GOD.

can u just hear urself, how ridiculous and unreasonable ur postulations sound. This can be implied from u

A big bang was not "created" but "could" be the origin of evolution and not an "uncreated GOD".
All things cannot be from GOD, but can evolve from micro-organisms, whose pioneer parent CANNOT be traced.
Life started from complex chemical reactions, but we dont know the first complex chemical reaction, its component simpler reactions or catalysts?
Does any of the above make any logical reasonable sense. or can they stand simple commonsensical test?

better to have or believe "mays" and "coulds" or "i dont know" of people that have provided cure to cancer, malaria, tuberculosis, small pox, flu, natural blindness and deafness than to believe the nonsense postulations of ancient jews who thought the world was flat and the sun revolves round the earth or unknown men who taught that demons, evil spirits and gods causes diseases. . .by the way did your bible tell you the first complex reaction that took place which produced life? did the early jews not use their god to fill in the gap? what are your own proof of creationism as recorded in the two different creation accounts of genesis 1 and 2? its time you begin to answer those questions. . . scientist at least give people their works to review. . .was the bible ever peer reviewed? who wrote genesis? do you know the person that wrote genesis? do you not just believe in the words of that unknown person even though they do not make any sense?

must u tell LIES? WHERE? WHEN? HOW? WHAT WAS THE EXPLANATION?

haven't you ever heard of the word Abiogenesis? it is the scientific way of explain the origin of life. . .not that i  completely agree with it but it is far better than the rubbish that is written in genesis 1 and 2 that have no evidence or can not be tested and proven in any kind of way. . .all we have in genesis 1 and 2 are the thoughts of ancient men who taught that snakes could talk and eat dust. . . .

while an unwitnessed, uncreated, disreputable and theorical "big bang"  could have led to the beginning of life, an "uncreated GOD" could NOT have.
how does that sound to u? it sounds very UNINTELLIGENT AND ABSOLUTELY STUPID to me.

the big bang is just a theory meaning that it is very plausible. . . .it is better than filling the gap with god that is constantly evolving with the nature and behavior of mankind. . . when men were primitive so was god or so were all the gods. . . in the bible god sewed cloths of animal skin for adam and eve, he lived in the wooden ark of the ancient jews. . . he ate their meals and tasted it. . . he fought wars with them and shared the loot or booty with them. . .  now that man is sophisticated the gods are also trying to be but mankind seems to be far ahead of all of them. . . by the way which of the uncreated god created the universe? is it allah, yahweh, jesus, vishnu, zeues, gunhume etc? which of the so called uncreated gods created the universe?

u are assuming eternity can be measured. NO it cant.

what makes you say that it can't? who told you so? your pastor or the unknown men that wrote the bible?

creation was for HIS pleasure.

pleasure that turned out to be a debacle as it is written in the bible? what kind of pleasure is that if he is constantly killing, destroying and changing his plans all the time? it is good that you have conceded that killing is a pleasurable thing thing to the bible god because thats the only thing he is known for doing through out the old testament. . . .read the bible and it says that the bible god is always angry and dissatisfied with humanity. . .always fighting humans for one reason or the other. . . what kind of pleasure is that? did the bible god create humans to fight with them all the time the way the old testament says he did? is killing and giving out stupid and ridiculous laws his pleasure? if you read the old testament that is all what you will see. . .even the new testament is the same wahala even after coming to and was killed by humans and die on a cross like a chicken people still do not want to do what he wants them to do hence the endless battle with humanity. . . what an incompetent god you believe in . . .the same god complain so many times in the bible that he regrets making humans and yet he just can not kill them all have all the good pleasure that he wants? even after killing the "whole" of mankind in the mythical noah ark he still came back and continued his endless battles with humanity. . .what a god. . . .

u havent said anytin new. This is all about the denial of GOD.

U now see i was right, u are not saying anything new.

show me where god is then i will believe in him else be quite. . .the only evidence you have for the existence of your god is your personal belief nothing else, but so also do the moslems, hindus, bahis, buddist etc. . . .the only reason that i am engaging you is to let you see the reason as to why people do not believe in ancient man made deities. .  .when next some one tells you he does not believe in your deity you don't have to be hot headed about it and call him an irrational fool because that seems to be your attitude even when you do not even have coherent evidence and persuasive arguments but belief in some nonsense book that you did not even know who the authors were and what condition they were in before the wrote what ever they wrote. . .in fact you are not even reading their wittings in the original language they wrote it to better understand the prose and what they were actually writing all you have is translations that have been edited and re edited to rely on. . .

Isnt it ironic that an argument that a debate can be held conically on the premise of an uncreated GOd, and yet an "uncreated big bang" and "uncreated micro-organisms" are not refuted to be sources of life. This is very jejune.
God has NO beginning.  ever heard of an uncreated creator?

what is your evidence for this apart from meaningless rhetorics?. . . . . . . .

please tell me where? when? how? why are u LYING?

no open minded and objective individual can throw away the existence of GOD on the basis of "evolution" "naturalism" and the "big bang". It stinks

sure that is very true. . . the open minded europeans that brought the belief to us have discarded it long ago. . . the open minded americans are discarding it in droves. . . only the closed minded africans and other close minded people are desperately holding unto to it. . . .you mean the europeans that brought the belief to you and have almost all left it are close minded and not objective? the americans that are leaving it in droves are not objective? only the africans and some of the south americans that are at the bottom of the human chain are open minded and objective eh?

very irrelevant.

How about the countless cases where this same principles u are discarding have worked? did this change ur beliefs?

countless eh. . .  just go ahead and give me just one documented case. . .just one. . . that has been scientifically documented. . . .i dont want church testimonies. . .because we also have uncountable mosque testimonies too

Its called judgement. when a man receives judgement, he calls it evil, was he not forewarned?

when will you guys stop lying?. . . . was it not god saying and apologizing that he did evil unto the men? how can a perfectly moral god do evil. . .here is the passage again it was the bible god that was confessing of the evil he did not men. . .

"Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, to whom you sent me to offer your prayer: If you remain quietly in this land I will build you up, and not tear you down; I will plant you, not uproot you; for I regret the evil I have done you."(Jeremiah 42:9-10)

how do you read ur bible?

mazaje, be objective and stop redefining GOD to suit ur uninformed and intellectually limited scope of reasoning.
kudos to u, I managed to reply u again. . . . thou LYING naturalist.

that advise should be for yourself. . . . i have clearly shown that i can reason for myself while you endlessly believe and depend on the words of ancient jews that would have killed you if your tribe was living any where near them when they were writing their fantasies. . . keep on lying for jesus. . i can see you are very good at it. . . .

noetic:
I am sure u read in the bible that peter WALKED on the sea with Jesus, until his fear failed him.

who the hell is peter? what do you know about him apart from the very little that was written about him in the bible? this is ridiculous. . . jesus was telling ALL(including you) those who believe in him that they will do greater things than he did. . . .i know for a fact that you can never walk on water. . .  if you like swallow the bible but you sure can't. . . .

are u limiting God's ability from the scope medicine. If an amputee can be medically healed, its not exempt from GOD's grace.
however, if u search truthfully u would hear of greater and mightier things been done in JESUS name.

, we hear about christian claims of their pastors raising the dead, healing people of various disease in crusades and churches. . . if god can raise the dead in a church or a christian crusade i bet he should be able to heal an amputee that goes there looking for healing or regenaration of his amputated limbs. . . why is it that god is never able to do clear cut miracles like healing and amputee and making his amputated limbs grow back? why is it that god only does hidden and questionable miracles like healing people of headache, heart diseases, cancer but never healing a blind person whose eye balls have been removed? why are all the so called miracles never clear cut but always hidden. . .?

I have seen biblical curses afflict a man.

just like i have also seen koranic curses afflict a man too. . . allahu akbar

u must be living in secluded areas. On nairaland here, a post was made about the pioneer GO of RCCG raising from the dead. There are countless million others.

sure he not only was able to raise a person from the dead but he was also able to travel for more than 300km on an empty tank and make an adult person grow taller. . .why is it that such tales and stories only emanate from africa? why dont we hear of pastors travelling for more than 300km on an empty thank in the developed world or turning the weather from a cold winter night to a warm summer night all of a sudden like GO adeboye claimed he was able to do in europe? is it because africans christians are more gullible and and more liable to swallow any thing thrown at them without questioning them unlike the christains in the developed world? if daddy GO can drive for more than 300km on an empty tank i bet he should be able to heal an amputee. . .

of course not. I have seen, witnessed and heard of great and mighty things that could only have come by the power of HIS might.
why would he lie anyway?

jesus said that any body that believes in him will do greater things than he did. . . i don't even want any body to do anything greater than what they said he did i just want to see a modern day christian walk on water. . . or do modern day christian believe in somebody else apart from jesus? what is it that you have seen, witnessed and heard that atheist, moslems, hindus, buddist and all those that do not believe in jesus have not also seen, witnessed, and heard? moslems have also seen the very mighty works of allah in their lives too. . . personal experinces do not count at all because over zealous people that want to convert others to their faiths usually make up stories. . . i know a guy that felt sick in london back in 2007, he went back to nigeria and due to the very poor standard and low level of medical practice and delivery that is obtainable in nigeria the doctors could not diagnose what was actually wrong with him on time. . . it was later discovered that he had cancer, but he refused to accept the fact that he had cancer because he believes that his almighty and loving "heavenly father" will never allow him to have cancer. when his situation got worse he was taken to christ embassy healing school in lagos, the guy claimed that he was completely healed and stopped taken the little drugs that the doctors had prescribed. . . .the guy came back did a special thanks giving in the CE church in jos which i was forced to attend by my aunt for one reason or the other. two months later the guy died of the same cancer that has been afflicting him. . .so personal experiences do not count. . . .  moslems, hindus, buddist all have personal experinces of how good and mighty their gods are. . . people are known to be over zealous and make up stories in other to convert others or just for the sake of attracting other peoples attention unto themselves. . . .

noetic:
no it doesnt, but it tends to thrive on anti-biblical injunctions alone, thereby negating the literal meanings of the term "free-thinking".
why should a free thinker do what non-free thinkers do?
why should a free thinker walk on his feet? wear a wrist watch on his hand and not his leg? wear a shirt or even a trouser or clothes?
why should a free thinker eat with his mouth, why not with his anus?

you speak like an uneducated person i must say(no insult meant). . . . what is this drivel you have written here? . . . . .what does the word free thinking mean to you? what is the name of a person that does not believe in gods?

free thinking is simply a foolish man's way of disproving what he cannot reasonably disprove. just a conflagration of lies to claim that GOD does not exist.
free-thinking gave birth to evolution which cannot tell us the very first organisms that started the evolution process.

does any person need reasonable reason to disprove god? the fact that there are many gods out there is enough to disprove all of them. . . .you spend too much time attacking evolution you are yet to tell us why we should accept creationism as written in the bible. . . even christians can not even agree on it themselves talk less of others. . . what are your evidence for creationism as recorded in the bible? instead of attacking evolution i want you to give your own scientific evidence in support of the  2 different biblcial creation accounts in genesis 1 and 2.

free thinking enabled scientist to tell lies about the origin of life. yet they cant state the very first complex chemical reaction that kick-started life. or tell us the simpler reactions that made this reaction, the catalyst and other things.

did the bible tell you the complex chemical reaction that kick-started life? you are just grasping at straw man here. . . .

free thinking enabled u, mazaje, to protagonate another lie called "naturalism", which u defined as "what I see every day and every time" 
u havent told me what EXACTLY I see every day and every time?    ur definition was a joke, right? 

you see the earth going round the sun at least not the other way round. . . you don't see the sun moving from place to place as the bible says it does. . . you don't see diseases being caused by demons or spirits as the bible says. . .you see disease being caused by unintelligible micro orgasms. . .and you don't see demons and satan working all over the place do you? the fact that you believe in those imaginary beings does not mean that they go from place to place causing havoc. . .

free thinking has only given birth to things NOT OF GOD. my bible calls them "OF THE DEVIL" and they have already received judgement.

have you ever seen the devil? how does he look like and what language does he speak? the devil only exist in you imaginations. . . . .

ur postulation is based on the assumption that medicine is against Godly instructions. or that they are opposite.

sure the biblegod does not want people going to doctors, there is a place in the old testament where he got angry with a guy because he did not seek his healing but that of the local doctors. . .the injunction was for sick people to go to the church elders. . . if the bible god wanted people to go to the hospital he would have said so. . . .i thought the bible was the living manual for christains? it was a forceful injunction sick christians are told to go to the church elders for healing when ever they are sick. . . many have tried it and ended up dead. . . . it is a complete failure. . . . .

that's not the case. Christians go to hospitals cos it is commonsensical to do so, and it is not against biblical injunctions.
when cases defy medical solution, Jehovah has always been faithful.

does jehovah have to wait for cases to defy medical solutions before he acts despite telling people not to go to the hospitals but the church elders. . . .if christains know that jehovah will cure them why go to the hospital in the first place? . . .

i will leave you with this little conversation. . .it best explains the absolute nonsense that you have been saying. . . .

Norm: Does God answer your prayers?

Chris: Yes, of course. I have a strong personal relationship with God. I pray to him many times each day. Jesus hears my prayers and, through his grace and the grace of the Holy Spirit, my prayers are answered. I am blessed every day by God.

Norm: So if you prayed to Jesus for something, would he answer your prayer?

Chris: Yes. Of course. Jesus promises in the Bible that he answers prayers. We see prayers being answered constantly.

Norm: Why pay for health insurance if you can pray and God will cure you? Why do people need doctors, prescriptions and hospitals?

Chris: Sometimes it is not God's will to answer prayers.

Norm: But in John 14:14, Jesus says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." James 5:15 says, "The prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well." Why would God ignore your prayers?

Chris: God is not some Santa in the sky. He does not answer prayers like that.

Norm: Didn't you just say that God answers prayers? In the Bible, doesn't Jesus promise to answer prayers?

Chris: God does answer prayers. I can show you millions of examples of God answering prayers. I have 20 books on my shelf at home filled with answered prayers.

Norm: Then why do you need health insurance?

Chris: Because, sometimes, it is not God's will to answer a prayer.

Norm: Why do you say that? "The prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well" is completely unambiguous. But when you pray for a cure, in a lot of cases nothing happens. Doesn't that mean that Jesus is lying?

Chris: No. Jesus is perfect so Jesus cannot lie. When God does not answer a prayer, it is not part of his plan.

Norm: So you go to the doctor anyway?

Chris: Yes. Of course I do.

Norm: Aren't you defying God's will? Aren't you ruining God's plan?

Chris: No. God does not intend for me to be sick.

Norm: Then why doesn't God answer your prayers and cure you himself?

Chris: There is no way that we can understand the mysteries of our Lord

this best explain the nonsense you have been saying since. . . .  .