₦airaland Forum

@esensed

ka haukache ba karya. . . . . ba answer da ka bada. . . . hauka kawai ka ke ta displaying annan. . .asibiti kawai zaka. . . ka nema magani. . . .

noetic:
where does the bible say DON'T GO TO HOSPITALS?

where does it say that christians should go to the hospitals? the bible clearly tells christians that they are to go to the church elders for healing. . .the same bible even went ahead and says that   the jesus took away the sickness and infirmities of christians

Matt 8:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities , and bare our sicknesses.
KJV

who were the local "doctors"?  medical practitioners or spiritualists?

you are the one the believes the words of ancient people who believe that demons and evil spirits cause diseases. . . .

@esensed

ka sha kwaya ko? na ga sai copying and pasting kawai kake ta yi. . . ba ka ma san abun da kake yi ba. . . .sola scriptura ko? zauna nan ka na ta rudin kan ka. . . . .

OLAADEGBU:
To prove or disprove of God or gods is the wrong quest. There are about three different types of proves. Mathematical as in 5+ 5 = 10; or Scientific as in the hypothesis is experimented upon to find out whether it is false or not; and personal experience. These three methods are different means at arriving at the answer.

The mistake people especially atheists are making is that they try to use the scientific method to prove the existence of God. How do you use Mathematical or scientific methods to explain what experiences you have by faith?

this is false. . .there are christains like William Lane Craig that are trying to use mathematics to prove the existence of the christian god. . . . go look at some of his debates. . .

noetic:
atheists are fast denying christians their rights to conventional christian practices, in the name of offending disbelievers.

what are the conventional christian practices you are talking about? is there any such things as conventional christian practice?

you have found it difficult to tell me

1. what the sacred convictions of atheism/naturalism is/are? if at all there are any?
2. what is nature's truth? what is the truth?
3. what is naturalism's explanation of the conception of life?

i have told you that before go and re-read my post on the other thread. . . .if you want to discuss that lets do it on the other thread. . .you ran away only to pop up here and pretend to be asking "questions". . . . .

unless and until u answer these questions within the limits of intelligence (no long stories or unnecessary rubbish), my opinion of u as a misguided and uninformed, ranting ignoramus still holds. (no offence intended)

i already did on the other thread. . .you keep talking about intelligence when you have non what so ever. . .can you use your intelligence and explain to me why you believe in certain things in the bible like the story of noah which has no scientific evidence what so ever. . .does your bible not frown at intelligence? does your bible not tell you to accept all of its ridiculous, unproven and irrational assertions purely on faith? stop talking about intelligence because the bible discourages the application of intelligence but tells people to be fools so that they will be wise. . .it tells people to believe all what it says purely on faith. . . .

humblesoul:
dear mazaje,

firstly i want to correct u, i am a muslim, but i grew up in the christian south amongst christians and i also have christain cousins, so i dont really agree with u that all christians are like that, in my family everyone is left to thier own faith and nobody is ridiculed or disrespected because of what they believe, my approach in life is that when one gets to a certain age u cant force religion down their throat so i just let everyone choose the path that he feels suits him, so if u don't beleive in God then that is your own piece of cake but like i said when i started this thread, some atheist come here and bug people who beilieve in God, i think that is not fair, we respect ur right be be who u are so please respect us too,

christians bug moslems and moslems bug christains. . . the war has been going on since naiaraland started floating. . . . it lead to a personal threat on seun's life. . . why is it only right for religious people to challange each other and wrong for atheist to do the same? . . . i dont see any respect between the christians and moslems here on NL. . .

JeSoul:
Humblesoul,
don't waste ur cybertime with these self-annointed 'intellectuals'. Those of us who've been here long enuff have seen that they are mostly driven by hate and an insatiable desire to ridicule others and their religions. Most christians here don't even bother to read or reply their posts.

you see the problem. . .go to the moslem section and see what your fellow christians are doing to the moslems. . .not that i care but. . .do christains not ridicule moslems and their religion? do they post not hateful post and insult moslems? why do you guys whine when you are being given a dose of your own medicine? long before atheist came to nairaland christains have ALWAYS been fighting and ridiculing each others sects. . .calling each others names and what not. . . it is always the catholics verse protestant. . the tithe verse the non tithe paying christians. . .the followers of pastor chris and tb joshus versus that of pastor adeboye and co. . . the only time christians agree with each other is when they are arguing with atheist. . .most christains don't bother to read or reply you say eh? is it because you have no better argument?

humblesoul:
Hello Nairalanders,
, this is directed to huxley, mazaje and co, i come in peace so am not here to ask for a fight, i respect your right not to believe in God but why can't you respect the rights of us that believe in God, everyone has a right to be what they want to be, muslim, christian, hindu, sango worshipper, atheists, budhist,  etc,

most of the nigerian christians do not respect our rights to be atheist. . . . nairaland is the biggest nigerian discussion forum. . .i come here to show nigerian christians that it is very normal to be an atheist and i show them how inconsistent and ridiculous their assertions are. . .i am not here to convert anybody. . i am here to show nigerian christians that it is very normal to be an atheist since christians and christianity do not have a better argument. . .christians rely ONLY on faith we rely on reason.

But you guys come here everyday trying to force your atheist stuff down our throats, don't you understand that in life everyone is different?, whether you like it or not there will always be christians, muslims, hindus, atheists, armed robbers, prostitutes, footballers, politicians, teachers etc, so why not let go and live your atheist life while we live our religious life, like i said earlier i am not calling for a heated exchange of words am just saying let everyone be free to believe what they want to believe!!!!

your fellow nigerian christians do not believe that either. . .nigerian christians do not believe that atheist have the right to be who they are or believe in what ever they want to believe in, they lie all the time that they don't care but tell them that you are an atheist and see how they will start treating you. . . does the bible not call atheist fools? do christians not believe that atheist are fools because the bible tells them that? the problems is not from us. . .the bible calls us fools for not believing in its more foolish and stupid assertions. . .and hence bible believing christians treat us as fools because their foolish bible tells them so. . . . i  was in nigeria in february and a friend of mine lost his job simply because his openly displayed his agnosticism to his born again female boss. . . .tell  christians that u are an atheist in nigeria and see how they will disparage, ridicule and mistreat you. . .christians have already declared war on atheists. . we just have to fight back. . . .and we fight back by showing them how false the bible and all its assertions are. . .if the bible is true christians will be performing magic. . . . . .the world we live in is not the one that the bible asserts or talks about. . . .

Image123:
Sad to hear about those cases above. The Word of God says my people perish for lack of knowledge . The will of God is not against medicine. Of course, God discourages us from putting our faith in anything, whether medicine, or money, or people. Our faith and trust should be on God, but we should make good use of all that have been provided for us legitimately. One noticeable thing about humans is that we love the easy way. Many people who say they're exercising faith are actually exercising fear. They'll rather not pay hospital bills, or take drugs, or have a medical operation. These things are hard or risky so they'll rather have a miracle. Many will not exercise their so called faith if hospital was free or if they had means to fly to some hospital with reputation for successful operations. Medicine is good and should be used without abuse.

the bible does not support any thing that you have written here. . .the bible encourages people to believe in magic, miracles and the healing power of the bible god(which has failed and is still failing time after time after time). . .it does not support hospitals(man made things of the world)

noetic:
I am sick of ur irrelevant postulations and meaningless rhetorics. . . . . answer my questions directly or dont bother replying

can you show me the part of what i have posted that is irrelevant? does the bible not tell you to go to the church elders when you are sick? why choose what to accept in the bible?

did Jesus ask Christians NOT to use hospitals? was the porosity of the medical profession as high as in ancient Israel?

yes. . . the bible which you believe is the word of your god clearly tells you what to do when you are sick. . .it doesn't mention hospitals. . . there were some kind of local doctors then. . .remember there is a part in the bible where the bible god got angry with a guy because he did not seek his healing when he was sick but went to the local doctors. . .

How does christianity negate/oppose/antagonise medical practices?

with the claims of miracles and the belief that prayers solves problems. . .prayer is what the bible tells people to do not to seek medical help. . .

You can start by answering YES/NO and then give reasons.

there is no where it says that christians should go to the hospital. . . .prayers and going to the church elders is what the bible recommends. . . hospital is a man made invention. . .drugs are man made inventions the bible god believes in miracles and magic. . .if the bible is true then christians will be performing magic end of story. . .

Mar16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Mar 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

why do christians go to the hospitals when jesus tells them that they will lay their hands on the sick and the will get well if only the believe in him?

noetic:
educating an atheist is like asking a donkey to drink water in very simple words.
can a donkey think/reason at all?

you believe in a book that says stars in the sky fight along side humans in battle and still believe that you can reason for your self? you believe in a book that makes failed promises after failed promises and you still believe you have a brain? you believe in a book that promises and tells you that if only you believe in it you will be able to perform magic which you are unable to and you still believe you can think for yourself? the problem becomes worse knowing very well that the book was written by unknown men who reported most of the events long after they allegedly happened. . . .

noetic:
how does christianity contradict/negate/oppose medicine?

did Christ ask christians not to seek medical help?

where does it say that christians should go to the hospital in the bible?

James 5:14-18 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. (KJV)

jesus says that does who believe in him will be able to perform magic. . . .because the bible said that he was a magician. . .

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.([/b]John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14)

why do christians go to hospitals if all they have to do is ask jesus to heal them? more promises. . .

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; [b]and nothing will be impossible to you [/b]Matthew 17:20 .

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. [b]If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. Matthew 21:21:

All the bible talks about is faith and belief once u have that you will be able to perform magic. . . .why do christians go to hospitals when jesus tells them to pray? why go to the hospital when the bible tells christians to go to the church elders?

Eziachi:
LOOOOL!
Did someone really said that to people or are you just joking?

pastor enoch adeboye of the RCCG said that. . . .and most of the people believed him. . . .

Bastage:
@Mazaje.
There's no evidence of the exact Biblical narrative, but the circumstantial evidence coupled with what is contained in the Bible makes the Hyksos theory very compelling.

i know that there is absolute no historical evidence for the biblical narrative that was why i asked if christians take the bible as a historical book or not because most nigerian christians take it has a book that records historical facts. . . .

Nigeria is dying because of religion period. . .

Eziachi:
One one said with my mouth gaped that ."God is our driver"!

why won't nigerians believe that imaginary gods drive cars when they have goons like pastor adeboye constantly remainding them that he travelled for over 300km on an empty tank. . .

Lagosboy:
If you have issues with Abuzola express that you dont have to include the blessed the Quran in it please.

what is blessed in that book of death?

Bastage:
The Old Testament does contain some historical fact. There can be no doubt about that.

As for Exodus? There are many, many theories. To get to the bottom of it, we have to look away from the Bible and at Egyptian history.

I believe that the Hebrews who escaped Egypt were the Hyskos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

There is so much in the Bible that backs this theory up, it looks like the only logical one.
Things like Moses' name (it's Egyptian), Joseph's position, the fact they originally came from Canaan, etc. There are other apsects we'll never know entirely for sure as the Egyptians totally wiped the records clean once they deposed them and forced them out (could point to the reason for the lack of evidence though)

there is no evidence to back up the exodus narrative. . .there is no evidence to show that the egyptians deposed over a million jews. . . .

Recognise:
[size=16pt]@^[/size]

Those quotes definitely rattled a cage . . .

I bet the saying "when a shoe is thrown at a pack of dogs

the one that got hit, is the one that yelps" is true then

which quotes. . . . . . . you lied and tagged the quotes as Last words of atheists. . .Caesar Borgia wrote those words in a poem besides he was a catholic not an atheist. . .Thomas Paine never made any such comments. . .Robert Ingersoll wrote it in a letter. . .that was misinterpreted to mean something else. . .so how did your non quotes rattle any cage

Image123:
@mazaje
infidel.org?must be a reputable site to get 'correct' information for infidels. Stop dodging those great quotes posted by recognise.The point is not whether they were said on deathbeds or alivebeds,the issue is that they probably the greatest words that those people ever spoke given the fact that the fool has said that there is no God.wise up mazaje,we love you and God loves you better.

did ou bother to read and see the evidence that was given?

is the bible really a historical book? did the exodus really happen?

More than a century of archaeological research has discovered nothing which could support the narrative elements of the book of Exodus - the four centuries sojourn in Egypt, the escape of well over a million Israelites from the Delta, or the three months journey through the wilderness to Sinai. The Egyptian records themselves have no mention of anything recorded in Exodus, the wilderness of the southern Sinai peninsula shows no traces of a mass-migration such as Exodus describes, and virtually all the place-names mentioned, including Goshen (the area within Egypt where the Israelites supposedly lived), the store-cities of Pithom and Rameses, the site of the crossing of the Red Sea, and even Mt Sinai itself, have resisted identification. The archaeology of Palestine has equally failed to substantiate the bible's account of the invasion of Canaan by the Israelites arriving from Egypt some forty years later - of the 31 cities supposedly conquered by Joshua, only one (Bethel) shows a destruction level that equates to the Biblical narrative, and there is general agreement that the origins of Israel lie within Canaan itself. Even those scholars who hold the Exodus to represent historical truth concede that the most the evidence can suggest is plausibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus

Did the exodus really happen as a historical event? the bible which puts naming people and cities at the center of its narratives FAILs to give the name of the Pharaoh that was ruling egypt during the exodus. . .the egyptians have no record of what is written in the bible. . .such a mass migration of millions of slaves would have had a devastating effect of the Egyptians but there is no historical or archaeological evidence to show that the it ever happened. . . .according to Rabbi David Wolpe, " virtually every modern archaeologist who has investigated the story of the Exodus, with very few exceptions, agrees that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all" (April 13, 2001). other archaeologist like Zeev Hertzog and Israel I Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University, who are Jewish themselves say that it never happened as a historical event. . . do nairaland christians take the bible as a history book or a book of faith. . . and if they take the bible as a book of faith why have faith in events that have no historical backing?

people are known to seek for other people's attention all the time. . . i know of a guy that refused medical treatment but instead went to the christ embassy healing school in lagos. . . .came back and told every body that he was healed, organised a speacial thanks giving service  and thanked god for his healing only to die about 7 weeks later of the same cancer that has been afflicting him. . . .overzealousness and attention seeking is the name of the game. . . . .

Mai Suya:
Really? do you have such a society you can use as a reference?

Sweden, Denmark,Netherlands, Finland. . .they are some of the countries that have the highest numbers of unbelievers in any god (about 80-90 percent) yet the have some of the lowest crime rate,juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy,low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income, gender equality and abortion. They uphold equal rights to all people and all sexes. . . and they all happen to be the top 4 countries which happen to be the World's Happiest Places where people feel most positive about their lives. World's Happiest Places

chidichris:
if the why in your topic here represents a question as in why nigerians depend on God to solve the problems, get your answer from John 15 : 5. FOR WITHOUT ME, YE CAN DO NOTHING.

How about the following countries where a majority of the people do not believe in god but still remain some of the best countries in the world and have achieved a lot in on so many levels of human achievement countries like Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Finland, how were they able to do so many things when your bible says they couldn't?

samorijack:
How do you think Adeboye Oyedepo and the like fill their pues and coffers? I'd like to ask them to if they know of any modern countery which has developed it's economy and society by miracles? ADEBOYE AND THE LIKE DON'T WAIT FOR MIRACLES THEY JUST love-vendor THE PEOPLE. When they are ill they fly abroad for medical check ups whilst they advocate prayer for the rest of us and when we die they tell us it's the will of God!!! can you beat that, their love-vendor juice is over flowing (some of these pimps now have private jets)

when pastor chris oyahkilomes's wife was sick he took her to the hospital. . . but he keeps advising people to come to his healing school. . .adeboye has succeeded in convincing people that he travelled for over 300km on an empty tank, he also succeeded in convincing people that he was able to make a short adult man grow taller. . .if he can make an adult short man grow taller i wonder why he can not heal an amputee and make his/her amputated limbs grow back. . .its just so pathetic. . . . .people are using their brains to develop while nigerians are waiting on imaginary gods to come and help them. . . .

when ever you fall sick do what the bible tells you. . . do not go to the hospital but go to the church elders to pray for you and anoint you with anointing oil. . .as the bible says. . .

James 5:14-18 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

Recognise:
[size=16pt]@^[/size] It is easy to be an atheist

when you one is succesful, in good heaith etc than the contrary is all I'll say for now . . .

[/size]
[size=16pt]@^ My brother and fellow lord,

[img]http:///apxj4z[/img] Well spotted and thanks for taking the baton . . .

after telling lies for jesus is this all you have to say? you started by saying declaring some of the quotes as Last words of atheists. . .Robert Ingersoll didn't make that statement on his dying bed. . .he made those statements in a letter that was then misinterpreted by christians. . .Caesar Borgia wrote those words in a poem. . . . they were not also his last words. . . by the way he was a devout catholic not an atheist. . .when did catholics become atheist

Image123:
You see,thats what happens when you lie.you have to tell another lie to cover up your previous blatant lie and then you'll tell another one and then another. Let me give you a chance to tell some truth,what were pastors and rev.s doing all over TPaine's deathbed? Don't feign unconcern pls. Later on,please meditate on those great quotes that recognise and image123 posted earlier.They do your soul a load of good.

you falsely accuse me of lying without pointing out where i lied. . .

"When on his death-bed Paine was beset by emissaries of the church, -- pious nurses, bigoted priests, and illiterate laymen -- who by entreaties and threats tried to compel him to renounce his Deistic and Anti-Christian opinions."

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_1.html#3

Image123:
@mazaje
you're on the internet,don't be so desperate. Thomas Paine lived during the period of the revival by George Whitefield and John Wesley.Paine was born on 29th January 1737.He died on June 8,1809. About 37 years later ,Thomas Edison was born on 11th February,1847. Edison died on 18th October 1931. Its an atheist miracle, how Edison was at Paine's deathbed. MAZAJE and colleagues,quit lying for the devil.

what is this?   so there is only one Thomas Edison that lived in the entire united states eh . . . .by the way did how did you come to the conclusion that i was talking about the same Thomas Edison that lived 37 years after Thomas Paine died   . . . .How is this different from saying that there is only one olusegun obasajo that lives in nigeria? George Washington is known to have a very good friend called Joseph Smith, what if i say that he had a friend called Joseph Smith and you say that i am lying because another Joseph Smith(the founder of the Mormon church) lived long after George Washington died Knaves and Pastor Eric Price invented all the stories about Thomas Paine and only fools believe them. . . besides the christians emissaries of the church,  that beset him on his death bed pious nurses, bigoted priests, and illiterate laymen there were also others like Thomas Edison,Willet Hicks,William Cobbett who were with him when he died and the said he never recanted his faith they wrote letters that have been documented till date. . .the only thing you have succeeded in doing is displaying you inability to reason and haste to make comments. . .read their accounts in the links below. . . .

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_1.html

http://www.americangreatesthistoricalfigures.com/thomas_paine.

Antiochus Epiphanes was a terrible personality who had no regard for God.Infact,he was touted to be the Antichrist.He tortured the Jews.Hear his experience. When the Jews rebelled against him,he was so angry that he vowed to make Jerusalem a common burial ground and was determined to march in with his soldiers immediately,but no sooner had he said his vows that he was struck with an incurable plague in his bowels. Worms bred so fast in his body that flakes of flesh dropped from him.The stench of his disease was such that no one could endure to be near him.When he could no longer endure his own smell,he said and I quote "It is meet to submit to God,and for man who is mortal not to set himself in competition with God." So he died miserably in a strange land on the mountains of Pacata near babylon.check your history friends. It pays to serve Jesus.

another christian propaganda. . . . Reverenad Dan Baker is now an atheist so what the hell are you saying? . . .i bet this is another last word of an atheist on his dying bed too . . . . .

"religion is embarrassing to the religious. hence the constant need to keep throwing out LIES and misinformation"

-Mazaje

Recognise:
Last words of atheists

M.F. Rich: "Terrible horrors hang over my soul! I have given my immortality for gold; and its weight sinks me into a hopeless, helpless Hell!"

Thomas Paine
"I would give worlds if I had them, that The Age of Reason had never been published. O Lord, help me! Christ, help me! . . No, don't leave; stay with me! Send even a child to stay with me; for I am on the edge of Hell here alone. If ever the Devil had an agent, I have been that one."

Sir Thomas Scott: "Until this moment, I thought there was neither God nor hell; now I know and feel that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty!"

Sir Francis Newport, the head of an English infidel club: "You need not tell me there is no God for I know there is one, and that I am in His presence! You need not tell me there is no hell. I feel myself already slipping. Wretches, cease your idle talk about there being hope for me! I know I am lost forever! Oh, that fire! Oh, the insufferable pangs of hell!"

The last words of the atheist Mirabeau: "My sufferings are intolerable; I have within me a hundred years of life but not a moment's courage. Give me more laudanum that I may not think of eternity."

Gibbon, the historian, a skeptic: "The present is a fleeting moment, the past is no more, and my prospect of futurity is dark and doubtful."

Caesar Borgia: --- "While I lived, I provided for everything but death; now I must die, and am unprepared to die."

Thomas Hobbs: --- "I say again, if I had the whole world at my disposal, I would give it to live one day. I am about to take a leap into the dark."

Voltaire: --- "I am abandoned by God and man; I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months' life." (He said this to Dr. Fochin, who told him it could not be done.) "Then I shall die and go to hell!"

Robert Ingersoll: --- "O God, if there be a God, save my soul, if I have a soul!" (Some say it was this way: "Oh God, if there be a God, save my soul if I have a soul, from hell, if there be a hell!"

this goes to show how DISHONEST and creepy christians are. . . they will throw all the LIES in the book to keep people in line with LIES and fear. . .@ recognise you have totally discredited yourself with all the LIES you have posted. . .why are you Lying like your fellow christian apologist?. . you visit christian websites that are full of LIES and post the LIES of other christians eh? . . . .Robert Ingeroll was just saying what christains were saying. . .but your fellow christain apologist took it completely out of context to mean he was saying it from his heart. . .he was only saying what christains were saying. . .just like when you say moslems say allahu akbar. . .does that mean you believe allah is great? by the way Robert Ingersoll wrote those words in his letter to the governor of Illinois at that time when the reublican party wanted him to run for governor on the grounds that he conceals his agnosticism but he refused and wrote the statement in a letter to the governor on the grounds that concealing information from the public was very immoral. those were not his last words as you VERY FALSELY claim . . .as for Voltaire you forgot to mention that Dr. Fochin later confessed that Voltaire never made such a comment to his friend John Nicholas. . .As for Thomas Paine he never said those words. . .Thomas Edison(a christian) was at his  bed when he died and he said that Thomas Paine never said any of those words that his rival Pastor Eric Price said he said his brother in-law also agreed with Thomas Edison that Paine never said what his rival pastor Eric price of Illinois said he said . .Caesar Borgia: wrote those words in a poem. . . they were not his last words stop lying for jesus. . . . I don't know of the rest but i believe they are also christian LIES too. . .what a shame you go to christian apologist websites and take up lies and keep spreading them all over the place. . .  . . . any way keep lying for jesus he will bless you in heaven when you die. . . 

Exodus 3:19:

"But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. So I will stretch out My hand, and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go. And I will grant this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be that when you go, you will not go empty-handed. But every woman shall ask of her neighbor and the woman who lives in her house, articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; and you will put them on your sons and daughters. Thus you shall plunder the Egyptians.

so the bible god tells the hebrew women to break the eighth commandment. . . . and encourages the israelite to steal from the egyptians eh? . . . people that do not believe in this holy, good, and just god are fools who are not wise . christians worship a very holy god that commands people to do very unholy things. . . . delusion at its finest. . . sola scriptura indeed . . .

esensed:
Dear fellow sons of God, fellow kings and priest unto God.
Rev 1:5-6
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.



I wish to humble call on all of us to henceforth, stick to the Word of God for it is the sword of the spirit (Eph6:17) in addressing any of the onslaught of the atheist which are part of the fiery darts of the enemy against your faith.

Lets stay ONLY on the scriptures and not the reasoning of men which comes to nought which is the reasoning of the atheist.

1 Cor 3:18-20

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
KJV


The atheist anywhere wants you to reason from their point of view and not from God’s point of view, which is beneath but remember ye sons of God are from above, hence your reasoning must be from above which is revealed from the scriptures ONLY. (Eph 2:6)

Paul for instance, reasoned with those that oppose him on the issue of Jesus Christ from the scriptures. So we also should and must stay in the scriptures and where the scriptures are silent, lets not add else we shall be on our own which is not what we want. (Acts 17:2,18:4)

Remember, the Holy Spirit, convicted you, not through human reasoning but through the word of God. Therefore our sole purpose is not to just to argue with them but that through the Word of God presented to them, against their reasoning even though they seem adamant, the Spirit of God will use it to convict them of Sin in His time.
For instance, The Spirit of God was brooding over the waters, then the word of God came, and there was Light. So also the Spirit of God is still at work today, however, I believe He wants us to present the scriptures, not our reasoning, and He knows the best cause of action to carry out on any matter. 


Therefore, lets reason from the ‘box’!!

Lets take some example from this forum on how atheist want us to reason. This is from a thread Re: Are Your Feeling Hurt When Your Beliefs And Religion Are Criticised?

from manmustwac
                                              Rule # 1
                                 You Are Not Your Beliefs
You are not your beliefs you should not associate yourself too closely with any pacticular religion.
Wrong!, The scripture says the Just shall live by faith. (Rom1:16-17)

You were not born a muslim or christian, there is no such thing as a muslim or christian baby you didnot come out of your mothers womb saying Allah Akbar or Jesus Christ is Lord. These are beliefs that you acquired at a later time.
But all of us were born sinners. (Ps51:5) And therefore need salvation through Christ. 

What are beliefs? Beliefs are the information that you have recieved whether it is accurate or flawed combined with your life experiences that lead to certain interpretations of that information. Life experiences such as for example you were indoctrinated to believe a certain religion is true. Critisizing belief is not hate. You were born a Christian or Muslim as mentioned and you can and you can become an ex Muslim or Christian quite easily.
Wrong! But all of us were born sinners. (Ps51:5)



from Blood_Shed
Quote from: Ascony on April 29, 2009, 11:59 AM
The burden of proof lies on the believer. when will you folks understand that?

You know how stupid it is trying to explain that to them? It's too damn obvious but they always try dodging it.

Brainwashed to the fullest.

Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
KJV
We cant be different from Paul, always the scriptures.


from huxley
Quote from: noetic on April 30, 2009, 02:48 PM
I neither belief or disbelief Nflah-nflah, cos i dont even know who/what it is.

but u dont believe in GOD, right?

Just as you don't believe in Nflah-nflah because you do not know who/what Nflah-nflah is (ie you do not know or have his ontology), atheist don't believe in Yahweh because we do not know who/what Yahweh is.  If you give me an ontology that is plausible, maybe I might change my mind.

Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
KJV


from mazaje

here is my own belief. . .i deny existence of all gods, that of the muslims, the hindus, the ancient egyptians, ancient greeks, chinese, south americans and the god of the old and new testaments. all of these are fictional constructs invented by very clever humans for purposes, a variety of diferent purposes, ranging from psychological comfort, emotional comfort, dominance and entertainment. i believe in naturalism. . .
Ps 14:1-3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God . They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
KJV


Mazaje continues

you believe in the unsubstantiated writings of unknown men who thought the world was flat or that the earth was the center of the universe and you say that naturalism is intellectually lazy?
NO scripture said that but men! Here is what scripture says
Isa 40:22

22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
KJV
[/b]does christianity not thrive on intellectual laziness? does the bible not warn you not to seek for knowledge and accepet everything on based on faith?
[b]Matt 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
KJV


does christianity not label intellectuality as blasphemy? even the bible god did not want adam and eve to eat the tree of "knowledge" according to the bible. . .we have so many anti intellectual statements in the bible like man' cleverness is foolishness in the eyes of god. . . but the same man has shown that he is much more clever than the imaginary bible god. . .such statements are there to keep people in line because the writers of the bible know that their assertion can not stand for them selves. . .
[b]The bible recognize that knowledge will increase, however it forbade us accepting knowledge that denies the existence of God and rejects the provision of Christ for salvation.
Dan 1:3-4
3 And the king spake unto Ashpenaz the master of his eunuchs, that he should bring certain of the children of Israel, and of the king's seed, and of the princes;
4 Children in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge , and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.
Dan 1:6
6 Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah:
Dan 1:17-18
17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
18 Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar.
Dan 12:4
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
KJV
1 Cor 1:21-24
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
KJV
[/b]
now to naturalism. . .the cause of lightning was once thought to be god's wrath, but it turned out to be the unintelligent outcome of mindless natural forces the same goes for earth quake. people once thought an intelligent being must have arranged and maintained the amazingly ordered motions of the solar system, but now we know it's all the inevitable outcome of mindless natural forces. disease were once thought to be the mischief of supernatural demons or due to the wrath of god(the bible says that alot), but now we know that tiny, unintelligent organisms are the cause, which reproduce and infect us according to mindless natural forces. in case after case, without exception, the trend has been to find that purely natural causes underlie any phenomena. not once has the cause of anything turned out to really be god's wrath or intelligent meddling, or demonic mischief, or anything supernatural at all. The collective weight of these observations is enormous: supernaturalism has been tested at least a million times and has always lost; naturalism has been tested at least a million times and has always won. naturalism is the belief that there is nothing supernatural.
Ps 14:1-3
[b]The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God . They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 1:18-22
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Mazaje continues
[/b]
based on such ontology that god is impossible to exist, let me give you and example. . .amongst the ontology of the christain god is that he is perfect. . .but we know that if something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. and yet this "perfect" god created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "imperfect" humans.
the ultimate source of perfection is god according to one of his ontology. what is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. what is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so god must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. a poisonous wild desert fruit can never grow on an good orange tree. a perfect god who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

[b]God is still perfect! Read this
Isa 54:16
6 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
KJV
Rom 9:14-22

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[/i]22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
KJV

[/b]
Therefore God is perfect yet Almighty!

the bible says that god is Omniscient meaning he knows all things, but the same bible shows or says that the omniscient god is surprised. how is that possible? how can a god that knows everything be suprised? a god who knows everything cannot have emotions. the bible says that god experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger,jealousy, sadness, and happiness. we humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. a man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger, suprise and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. in contrast, the omniscient god is ignorant of nothing. nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react. we humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. the perfect, omnipotent god, however, can fix anything. humans experience longing for things we lack. the perfect god lacks nothing. an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect god who experiences emotion is impossible.


Mazaje continues


Quote from: mazaje on May 03, 2009, 08:22 AM

where did i say that i believe in the big bang? but it sure makes a much better sense than the the idea of a personal god. . . . the idea of a personal god is only used most of the time to fill in the gaps for things we have not yet known. . .the god hypothesis does not really answer anything, it is just an excuse. . . .the general hypothesis is that god is not visible, tangible or otherwise detectable by empirical means.

Yet He says that what He created speaks of Him. Even in you!
Rom 1:18-22
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 [b][i]Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
KJV
[/b]

god is supposed to act in space and time, but without having a location in space and time.
his essence is, according to the tradition itself, ungraspable and fully beyond the comprehension of finite human minds. and yet belief in this incomprehensible being is supposed to make the present state of the world more intelligible?
everything observable is supposed to be created by god, but this god himself is uncreated. furthermore, events in the observable world can generally be accounted for without introducing a god as an explanation. as i pointed out in my previous post thunderstorms, earthquakes,  lighting, plagues, eclipses, the variety of natural species, and even the origins of life itself all have detailed natural explanations(some of which i don't really agree with), notwithstanding the fact that they were once thought to be the immediate work of god.we are told a great deal about him, but never enough that claims that his existence can be put to the test.

Job 9:10-12
10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.
12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?
KJV



imagine, for example, a farmer who prays to god for rain to help his drought-stricken crops. suppose it then rains. our happy farmer explains this as the act of god in response to a prayer but suppose it doesn’t rain. the farmer explains this as god having had other reasons for withholding rain so you see either way, the god hypothesis seems to do no real explanatory work. it can be used to account for literally anything in exactly the same way.

[b]Imagine, a pot questioning the potter!
[/b]

Therefore fellow brethren, finally, Spiritual truths are just Spiritual truths! It may not sound acceptable to the worldly, carnal mind of an atheist, but that is not our problem. God knew that scoffers a.k.a atheist will exist that is why He allowed His Word be in human language, which to the atheist like the jews & greeks, is foolishness, weak, base. And He is not afraid of the scripture standing only on its own, defend itself by itself. So lets give scripture as the Spirit gives us understanding.

1 Cor 1:18-22
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

;22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
KJV

1 Cor 1:26-29

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
KJV




Let God be God, Atheist want to put God in their level – Liars.
Rom 3:3-4
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, [b]let God be true , but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV
[/b]

So lets stay Sola Scriptura!!!

So lets stay Sola Scriptura!!!

if you truly have the scriptures to rely on why are there over 30,000 sects of christianity most of which are fighting against each other as to which sect best understands the interpretation of the scriptures? if the scripture exist then why is there no a universally acceptable christian doctrine? why are christians still fighting each other over the meaning and interpretation of the scriptures. . .as far as i am concened the only thing you have displayed is that you can not reason for your self. . .see your answer from the scripture to this question

imagine, for example, a farmer who prays to god for rain to help his drought-stricken crops. suppose it then rains. our happy farmer explains this as the act of god in response to a prayer but suppose it doesn’t rain. the farmer explains this as god having had other reasons for withholding rain so you see either way, the god hypothesis seems to do no real explanatory work. it can be used to account for literally anything in exactly the same way.

;22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
KJV
1 Cor 1:26-29

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
KJV

Bastage:
So he could be regarded as your atheistic Adam, right?
The point I'm trying to make is that there is very little difference between the Christian stance and the Atheist stance.

I certainly do not believe that either group has a monopoly over morality but do tend to disagree with your description of Christian morality - not because it is incorrect per se but because it ignores the fact that all groups of people tend to act in the same way, religious or not. If they've got a common bond, there's probably an instance of common morality that they will try to justify in some way.

there are some objective moral values that almost all men have developed over time. . .and i will list 3 of them

1. it is wrong to kill and torture innocent children no matter what. . . .

2. it is wrong to kill innocent people. . .

3. it is wrong to rape little children. . .

these objective moral values i believe are shared by most men regardless of their religion, societal creed and faiths. . . .i agree with you that no body has the monopoly over morality but it is very unfortunate that some people mostly the religious people believe that they do. . .

huxley:
It is nothing but a Miracle from Jesus.   I decide to pray to Jesus today to ask him to fill and empty glass with clean water and about one hour later and some fervent prayers Jesus did just that - filled my empty glass with water.   This is what I did.

I put an empty pint glass on my desk and I put a piece of cardboard over its brim.  I then proceeded to say some words of praise and prayer to the Lord Jesus, clutching a copy of my bible in my hands.  I prayed for about one hour, interrupting my prayers occasionally to check the glass and to read some post, but surely going back to praying to the Lord.  I prayed really hard, in the manner of Elijah.  You remember how Elijah put God (Jesus) to the test when he prayed hard and set fire to some pile of wood, proving that his God was the real god (1 Kings 18:30-39) .  Yes, I prayed as hard as Elijah and to my delight my glass was filled with clean water.

I wish I had videoed this.  This would have been great evidence that Jesus is alive and real.  Who else could have filled the glass but Jesus?   Praise be to Jesus for He is real.

Amen.

Bastage:
@mazaje.

The actual system of morality may have involved trial and error as it evolved, but there must have been a time when one of those cavemen realised that "This specific act is immoral", right?

sure and i acknowledge it in my previous post. . . the realization that an action is unsustainable and the fact that it is to the detriment of the family lead the cave men to regard it as an immoral act. . .

You seem to think that morality evolved exclusive to survival. Where therefore does the concept of altruism come in?: ie Sacrifice and Charity
.

not entirely true. . .i believe that morality evolved for survival but survival it self involves other things like happiness, comfort, perfection and satisfaction. . .the cave man really did not know what altruism means. . .basic survival is what drives everything that he does. . . but as time went by man in his quest for happiness, comfort, satisfaction and perfection later developed that sense of altruism. . .

Bastage:
But we can take it even further!!!


I'm no believer in a literal Adam and Eve but I do see the story of the Garden of Eden as an extremely good metaphor for how immorality began and how it has affected the human condition.

You say that morality evolved. In that case there must have been a first conscious immoral act, right?

If that is true, the first culprit who committed that immoral act is the atheistic Adam is he not? And because of that Adam, the rest of humankind through the ages then becomes capable of committing immorality, right?

If that is the case, what is the real difference between atheists and believers over this subject?

There really isn't one is there?

the questions you asked above can not be answered with a simple yes or no because it involves quite a number of things. . .morality evolved through series of trial and failures. . .the cave men did not really know that they were doing any wrong when the took away the food of their neighbours i believe. . .they did it because that was the action that would have best enhanced their survival. . .so that it self is not really a conscious immoral act. . . it only became a conscious immoral act when the same was being done unto them and they realized that taking away the food of their neighbors and suffering the same will destroy them both so a compromise had to be reached. . . the process kept evolving to what we now have. . . .even in family or clan of the cave man morality it self evolved over time. . .once upon a time the strongest member of the family had everything while the weak feed on the left overs of the strongest member or members. . . .

the cave men later realized that that way of behavior itself was not sustainable because the weak which were contributing very much to the family were dying off due to that system of stronger takes all, so to ensure the survival of every member of the family and the growth of the clan as a whole that system had to be changed because it was unsustainable and it negatively affected the family as a whole. . if the strongest members always had his/her way all the time that it self will be to the detriment of the family as a whole. . .in that case the realization of the unsustainable tendencies of such actions or behavior and its abolition renders it an immoral act. . .as an atheist i believe that morality can not be placed in a box. . . since morality is always evolving it should not be rigidly defined the way religion has defined it. . religion always seems to define morality in the form of us verse them and i find that unacceptable. . . .despite all the love your neighbors as yourself that believers say all the time they still can not afford to love others that their religion has tagged or defined within its tenets as immoral people. . . people like gays. . . unbelievers etc. . . that is why despite all the divine morals believers of all faiths claim to posses their divine morals have not helped them in stopping or solving the different conflicts that go on every where in the world. . . the atheist believes that morality should be defined as to what will best make a majority of the people comfortable, happy and best enable their survival not just a few or just some parts of the society. . .

Bastage:
If immorality is inherent, then the fact that the man is going to commit an immoral act is inevitable isn't it?

See, what I'm trying to get at is that the concept of Original Sin is not a particularly religious one. We all commit immoral acts. There is no escaping from immorality as it is a human condition.
Christians just use the story of Eve and the apple as a means to explain how immorality came about whereas atheists will explain that it's down to things like survival instinct. But both agree that immorality began with sentient man and is human nature.

i think you have sumed it up pretty well. . . . . .