₦airaland Forum

davidylan:
- To Mazaje and co who LIE that Moses never declared his authorship of those books . . .

Exodus 24: 4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exodus 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

-

davidylan. . . are you for real? is this a joke or what? is this your evidence chie no be small thing. . . from the first sentence you will see that's if you bother to open your blind eyes that a person was narrating the story when he decleared that "and moses wrote the words of god". . this is not moses speaking. . . if it were moses declearing authorship to the books it would be phrased like like this. . " I (moses) wrote the words of god". . or "and the lord said unto me(moses) write thou these words for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel " but that's not the case. . . .if you open your eyes you will see that this is a narrative given by some one else on moses behalf, a person was clearly telling a story about moses hence the pharse" and moses wrote the words of god" this is not moses speaking and its very clear. the words of god there NEVER meant a book or the entire pentateuch as you would like to have us believe. . . of course moses must have had some writings but the point here is that his writings were added to a lot of mythology and other events that happened long after he died by some unknow writers, all the writings with his included were made into the pentateuch and all the writings were acribed to him. . . . Nice try but you have failed, try again. . . . the claim of authorship you have given here is a JOKE and complely ridiculous. . .

davidylan:
When u're tired of going around in circles you will stop abi.

- You and your goons started off struggling to plagiarise material from others to show "evidence" that Moses did not write the 5 books. After it was shot down and you even admitted loopholes you now turn around asking for "evidence" that Moses wrote it?

- Evidence that Moses wrote those books - the books of numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy have extremely detailed analysis of the laws that God granted to the children of Israel that could only have been known by the person unto whom those laws were first delivered.

- - Other books that testify of Moses' authorship:

Joshua 8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.

Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

Mark 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

There are close to over 20 of these different direct allusions to the writings of Moses that i have chosen not to include here for purpose of space.

- Historical claims of Moses' writings:

And who wrote all the books? Moses wrote his book and a portion of Bil'am [Numbers, xxii.], and Job.
- Talmud Tract Baba Bathra (written around 200 BC)

- Philo of Alexandria (20 AD) also attributes the pentateuch to Moses.

You are free to debunk all these cloud of witnesses and provide us your own unimpeachable evidence. And please we've had it with hypothesis that have no basis.

This is again nothing but theory . . . someone's ideas . . . someone who obviously has a need to find something to disprove the bible. It is not a theory steeped in observation (as science shld be) but one that is deeply subjective.

please kindly give us detailed explanations as to which parts of the story on the flood come from J or P.

if i say you are a joke just accept. . .  all you did is copy from the bible what you have no understanding of. . . . are these your claim of authorship? is this a joke or what? kai. . . . how does all this nonsense you copied from the bible prove that he claimed authorship or wrote the pentateuch. i don't like repeating my self but let me say it again of course moses must have had some writings which were later added to some mythologies and events much after he died and presented as the pentateuch written by moses. .

When Joshua informs the Israelites of God’s decision to deliver the city of Jericho over to them, they topple its walls and kill every living thing in the city, except for a single harlot on espionage missions, before burning it to the ground (Joshua 6:16-24). Afterwards, God orders Joshua to infiltrate the city of Ai because he’s delivered it in likewise fashion. The Israelites also set Ai on fire and kill the 12,000 inhabitants running for their lives. The King of Ai is taken prisoner and later hanged (Joshua 8:19-29). Following the victories at Jericho and Ai, God commands Joshua to go on an unbelievable killing spree. The Israelites subsequently murder all the men, women, and children in Makkedah, Libnah, Lachish (along with the King of Gezer and his armies assisting Lachish), Eglon, Hebron, and Debir. Not a single life was spared during these invasions (Joshua 10:28-40).

When word spreads of Joshua’s rapid conquests, a considerable number of cities combine their armies to attempt a victory over Joshua and Israel. The number of resistance forces is “as the sand that is upon the sea shore in multitude,” but God promises to deliver them all to Joshua. Indeed, God remains true to his word and “They smote them, until they left them none remaining.” Joshua then burns their chariots and brutally cuts the hamstrings on their remaining horses (Joshua 11:1-9). After the battle, the Israelite army marches into all the unprotected and defenseless cities that had offered their armies in resistance and kills every living man. In Hazor, the army kills every man, woman, and child before setting the city ablaze. One can only speculate on how many hundreds of thousands of lives God orders Joshua to take in these assuredly disputable accounts.

Following Joshua’s death, God proceeds with his war strategies when the Israelites face Benjamin’s army. As a result of God’s unorthodox command, 22,000 of his own people die in the first battle. The next day, he orders them to face Benjamin once again. This time, they suffer an additional 18,000 casualties. Phinehas, feeling a bit hesitant to lead another hopeless skirmish, asks God if he should take command in another attack against Benjamin. God affirms Phinehas’ inquiry and promises him a solid victory. In the ensuing battle, the Benjamites suffer 25,100 casualties (Judges 20). In this short series of campaigns, God orders his own troops into two battles that his omniscience tells him they won’t win. On the first two days of this monstrous war, during which he wasn’t about to lift a finger to help, he saw to it that 40,000 of his own people would become casualties of needless warfare. Incidentally, the death of a single person initiated these hostilities.

Centuries later, when God “remembers” what the Amalekites did hundreds of years prior to Saul’s leadership, he orders Saul to journey to Amalek where he is to decimate every living thing in the city. Saul only partially obeys by killing every person but saving a few of the best animals for himself. My guess is that he was unaware of how enraged God becomes over such trivial matters. God subsequently revoked Saul’s crown because of his unwillingness to follow exact orders (1 Samuel 15). To me, however, the issue of Saul’s crown isn’t the one of major importance. Personally, I feel that the omnibenevolent God should not have held the people of Amalek responsible for the enterprises of their distant ancestors, but God and I are obviously in constant disagreement.

i like davidylan because he is very unrelenting and sometimes appears as an intelligent person who applies reason and logic to some of his posts. . . he is sometimes a charlatan and a fraud

how did i forget KunleOshob the guy is very good. . . .

pligrim is very good too but she is also very evasive. . .

winiret. . the best ever

redsun. . wow the guy is just too good. . . .one of the best posters on nairaland. . .

Zinoben. . . his posts are outstanding and excellent. . .

KarmaMod:
I think you proved why Jesus was sent to die, mazaje

abi?

die for what and whom? i guess the biblical god was tired of killing and drinking human blood or was he tired of giving instructions to his foot soldiers on how to share war booty and virgins? what about his strong advocacy of slavery? was he tired of that too?. . .was he tired of killing babies because their parents worship other gods?. . . since after jesus's so called death and resurection what has changed in the world? has sin stopped? i thought jesus's death was supposed to put an end to sin. . why is there still abundant sin in the world. . and why is the biblical god's arch enemy the devil still having a swell time. . .(i don't even know what you guys mean by satan or devil). . .

syphillis:
you atheists will die of heart attack one day because of the Christian God

who are where is he?. . .the christain god is nothing but a fraud i say allah is the ultimate god prove to me that he is'nt. . .

Why are christains quick in castigating prophet mohammed and allah as manovalent and dangerous when the jehova of the bible is worse? here are some of his actions according to the bible. . . . .  and there are many many more this is just a tip of the ice berg. . .

God will kill men, have their children smashed, and have their wives raped (Isaiah 13:15-16).

God will punish children for the iniquities of their fathers and distant ancestors (Isaiah 14:21).

God will lay waste to entire cities and make the lands desolate (Jeremiah 4:7).

God will set people, animals, and even plants on fire because of his anger (Jeremiah 7:20).

God will send so much evil that people would rather be dead than suffer (Jeremiah 8:3).

God will give away the property of men, including their wives, to other men (Jeremiah 8:10).

God will kill young men, and their children will die from a famine (Jeremiah 11:22).

God will cause everyone to become drunk so father and son will kill one another (Jeremiah 13:14).

God will not hear the cries of the people or acknowledge their sacrifices (Jeremiah 14:12).

God will make people hungry enough to eat their own children and friends (Jeremiah 19:9).

God will burn entire cities with the inhabitants still inside (Jeremiah 50:32).

God will break people’s bones and knock their teeth out with stones (Lamentations 3:1-16).

God will force fathers and sons to eat each other and scatter their remembrance (Ezekiel 5:10).

God will be comforted by killing everyone with pestilence, plagues, and swords (Ezekiel 5:12-13).

God will lay dead bodies around idols and spread their bones around the alters (Ezekiel 6:5).

God will kill righteous men and forget their good deeds if they ever turn to sin (Ezekiel 18:24).

God will turn daughters into whores and wives into adulterers (Hosea 4:13).

God will kill children when they come out of their mothers’ wombs (Hosea 10:14).

God will tear people apart and devour them like a lion (Hosea 13:.

God will kill children and unborn fetuses because their parents worship other gods (Hosea 13:16).

God will sell the children of Israel into slavery in a far away land (Joel 3:.

God will kill inhabitants of entire cities if they have a corrupt government (Micah 3:9-12).

God will consume every living thing from the face of the earth (Zephaniah 1:2-3).

God will send people to steal Jerusalem, rape the women, and enslave the rest (Zechariah 14:2).

God will send plagues on people and animals to rot away tongues and eyes (Zechariah 14:12-15).

kola oloye:
Ignorance is deadlier than any virus. Bible says "Wisdom is the principal thing with all your getting get understanding"
If God wants to drink peoples blood he doesn't have to ask for anyones permission before he does so, there are thousand
ways for Him to do that.
@topic,
If you have a bible i advise you to read it from Matthew to Revelation, if you then have any question on human sacrifice except
for the ultimate price that the Lord Jesus paid on the cross at Calvary please let me know immediately. Till then i rest my case.

what do you mean by matthew to revalation? ohh you are now playing the new testament card abi. . i thought the same god that carried out all those evil deeds in the old testament is still the same god in the new testament?

This is a shame. . . . christains are quick to point out that mohammed and allah are mass murderers who did a lot of evil in the koran and haddith. . . babyosisi was shamelessly ponting out the killings that prophet mohammed ordered his cohorts to execute in the koran in another thread to completely discredit him and allah by declearing them as evil savages .how blind and delusional can one be? you christains never fail to amaze me. . imagine babyosisi calling prophjet mohammed out on his massacares. . has she ever read the bible at all. . or is this the new low of delusion? what is the difference between prophet mohammed, moses, joshua, ezekiel, aron, hosea, jeremiah, david and all the other lair, rapist, land grabbers and mass murderering prophetsin the bible?

Most of the responses here are completely ridiculous. . . i will be back to show you deluded and blind christains what a stupid and ridiculous monster you biblical god is. . .

Chrisbenogor:
Still waiting for evidence that moses wrote them.

You go wait tire he has already said he will not provide any. . .  reason is because non exist. . . .
 
davidylan you still haven't been able to tell me how jonah survived inside a fish for 3 days using your knowledge of biology is faith all you have to your defense here?

1. The alleged doublets and contradictions that Dr. Long points out are baseless . . . an example is the fact that he claims Ex 15:14 says Palestina when the original hebrew text says pelesheth.

now that it feels convenient you are running to the original hebrew text to rescue you. .even when some original translations of the bible have been rigged by christains according to jewish scholars . . .for example Isaiah 7:14. . .when the jewish scholars point that out christain apologist claim that the jews do not understand their language very well or give some outlandish excuses. . . you never cease to have something to run or hold on to from the english translation rendered it inaccurately to the hebrew translation rendered it inaccurately. . .keep on running in the circle of delusion. . .

ehie:
i have a question not related to the topic but related to God,does God play favorites?

The case of Saul,David and Samuel.
Samuel wasnt happy when the Isrealites wanted a King and he chose Saul,personally I didnt think Saul was so terrible but what do I know is he had this shaky relationship with Gods Prophet who had God's ears,so he wasnt really in charge and he always had to answer to Saul.
I think that God favored David more and didnt give Saul a chance.More like whatever he did wasnt good enough for him.
I think God plays favorites.



i hope i made sense
scratching my head

whats this?

davidylan:
Is the veracity of the bible negatively affecting you in any sense?

is the fallacy of the bible positively affecting you in any way?

davidylan:
I'm not showing evidence as much as pointing out the fact that you don't seem to have a firm grasp of the issues you're hyperventilating about.
Start by reading Long's work that you plagiarised at least.

you are not showing because the fact remains that there is non, whats wrong with acknowledging that fact? . . .is the bible your writing, thoughts or reason. . or is it your fathers?. . . why are you defending a book that was written so many years before your grandfather was born? so many of its assertions have been debunked by science, history and simple reason? stop talking about plagiarism because the bible is not ur thought or reason. . . the only things you have to fall back on is that i used some one else's words are the biblical words your? the plagiarism card is all you have up ur sleeve. . . you are a shame to your fellow blockheads. asked why the biblical god is an advocate of slavery you come up with answers that moslems are enslaving people in mauritainia too.  how dull can one be. . you are a stupid joke. . keep on running in your stupid circle of delusion and stupidity. . .

davidylan:
funny, because Dr. Long's timeline of the exodus and one major reason he disagrees the Jews could have built pithom and Raamses 127 years before Raamses II became Pharaoh is based on backdating from the 4th yr of Solomon's reign which was 480 years after the Exodus.

I repeat again . . . i'm not even sure you bothered to read Long's treatise that you so shamelessly plagiarised.

keep on running round and round and ranting like a mad dog. . . you still have not shown me evidence to show that moses wrote any of the books apart from blindly defending what is written in the bible which has been debunked by science, history and common sense . all you have to your stupid defense is that he never said he didn't you are a a stupid joke. . .

Adam Brody:
roflamo

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I am just as perplexed as you and the laughter almost made me get an instant query !

ecclesia nation my foot!

So in other words god flip flops, while it is permissible to murder, kill, maim and destroy humans (Lest i forget human sacrifice) in the old testament, the same god can realise that killing is not good for the new isreali nation abi?

What a Mind Job you christian lots are!

allah is a mass murderer too. . as davidylan will say when confronted with this embarassing issue. .

davidylan:
You're shooting yourself in the foot badly:

1. The guy said the books were written long ago - where is his proof? Who does he know wrote the books?

2. He provided enough evidence - no he did not! His entire book of fluff is based on delegitimising the veracity of the books. He provides NO evidence at all of who wrote the books and when. All he does is plagiarise Thompson's JDEP hypothesis.

3. If indeed you claim that the biblical account of the establishment of Israel is BOGUS . . . that automatically invalidates a major plank of Dr. Long's hypothesis of who could have potentially written the 5 books of Moses. One hypothesis assumes that the writer was someone domiciled in the northern part of Israel . . . a kingdom you claim is bogus.

Again i repeat, do you have a ball of wool in your head?

learn to read and understand you cretin before spewing rubbish the guy and other scholars agree that the events as to the establishment of isreal according to the bible is bogus. . and that is a fact . . the exodus and other events didn't happen as portrayed in the bible. . his original premise was that the books were written long after moses died and after the kingdom of isreal was established. . . and his timeline is different from that of the bible. .no where did he agree with the time line of the establishment of the kingdom of isreal according to the bible infact he said it was bogus and the kingdom was established much later than it was claimed in the bible. . . go ahead and break your. neck no where did moses ever claim authorship of any of the books. . keep on deluding yourself with your senseless pranks. . .

davidylan:
There was no such "land of Israel" until the period of Joshua. Moses never saw the land so he could not have included it in the 5 books.

You don't seem to have a capacity to think at all.

you are clearly a disturbed slowpoke. . the guy said that the books were written long after moses died and he provided enough evidence to show for it. .the biblical account of the establisment of the kingdom of isreal is BOGUS and you are here coming up with your usual convulated idea of joshua. . . why are you using the bible a standard since most of its claims have been debunked by science,  history and common sense?

Backslider:
@poster

The law is for the Ecclesia Nation of God at the time.

KunleOshob:
Christianity is not based on any of the Old testament scriptures you quoted

always the lame excuse. . we are talking about the evil actions of the christain god here. . .deal with. . . .

My favourites are all the mass murderers and lairs like moses, david, ezeikel, joshua, jeremiah, hoesea etc all those land grabbers that killed and raped women, enslaved people, carried out misguided wars to the glory and honour of jehova, stole lands from their neighbours and killed innocent children because their parents worshiped other gods apart from jehova. . .These war criminals and perpetratours of genocide are my favorites. . . .

olabowale:
@DaviDylan: « #69 on: Today at 12:40:16 AM »
While you guys, are fighting on material issues which are different from the meat of the topic, I just can't but observe that David is nullifying the import of Tacitus, because his name is not directly link as the authorship of "the Book!"


David A_ _n_ _ _, of Ijebu Ode, please apply your mode of argument against Tacitus, exactly like that, to the Word "Trinity" in the Bible? It is not there. Hence it is a Fake!

very good example olabowale davidylan is a joke, when ever he is caught pants down he always comes up with some kind of convulated excuseembarassed by the ridiculous geneaology of jesus, he comes up with the idea that one is that of mary while the other is that of johseph even though nothing like that was written in the biblecaught pants down with the fact that dan became a city long after moses exsited he come up with some outlandish explanation that only himself understandsor plays the translation error card when it suits him by declearing the english translation erroneous and rendered the word inapproprietly. . . faced with some embarrasing doctorines or principles in the bible he comes up with the excuse that such doctorines were meant for the jews, corthintains, thessaloneains or addressed to the people living at that time alonefaced with the fact that the bible has been editted so many times to conform to a single narrative he comes up with the excuse that other books have been editted too . . . this guy is a master when it comes to throwing things on the wall to find any one that sticks i dey fear the guy sef i must confess. . the guy is a typical defination of a charlatan. . .

[quote author=Abu-Maryam link=topic=193649.msg3203409#msg3203409 date=1228870872]Gradually, the truth will come out. The whole thing na business. We knw this one.[/quote]islam is a racket too. . . they are all business or whatever you choose to call it. . .

davidylan:
Here is a problem with your bogus "reasons":

Here is the problem . . . there was no kingdom of Israel AT ALL before the book of Joshua!
How then could a hypothetical E have been writing about a "kingdom" that did not exist?

says who you? you are truly a disturbed person, are you for real? no kingdom of isreal before the book of Joshua says who?  you? are a deranged clown Try again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

The annals were finished and published around 116 AD. Besides the titles (similar to the gospels) there is no textual reference to tacitus at all in the annals themselves. [this is a fact that more serious scholars would have checked out rather than vituperating about "lies"].

Have you ever heard of Tacitus at all?

how do you know? this is a bogus claim. . . promulgated by your fellow christain apologist to give excuse for the unknown authors of most of the books in the bible. . .

Ptolemy in middle of the second century was the first to make a quote possibly from Tacitus' works without a direct reference to Tacitus AT ALL. If Tacitus indeed existed and wrote the annals . . . why did Ptolemy refuse to mention him? [Note the similar style of argument against the bible is NEVER raised in questioning Tacitus as the author of the annals].

The same problem occurs with Cassius Dio who wrote his own work after 200 AD, quotes Tacitus annals (there is no where else he could have gotten his quote) but also FAILS to directly mention Tacitus AT ALL.

It is not until the third century (100 years after Tacitus work) that the historian, Tertullian, finally mentions him by name.

Not however that all the above have not changed the generally accepted assumption that the annals are the work of Tacitus . . . it is however funny that the basis for attacking the veracity of the books of the bible are the very same reasons it would be difficult to accept the annals as the work of Tacitus because according to Mazaje's premise, he does not declare himself as the writer.

Sources please. . stop lying because you are very good at that. . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_(Tacitus). . . All this claims are bogus. . .

How did you know that Moses DID NOT write the books? About time you blockhead answered a question too

because he never mentioned any where that he did. . . and i gave you enough reasons to show that he did'nt but as usual you discarded them with some nonsensical rebuttal. . .

He never said he didnt either.

is this a joke? why are you hell bent on exposing your stupidity all the time? i said he never said he did. . . there is no where in history where moses EVER claimed authorship of any of the books. . so its up to you to provide evidence to show that he did. . but as usual all you can come up with is this lame excuse. . delusion at its finest. . . you make your fellow imbeciles cringe in same. . . .

The "reasons" you post here are not yours. Until you put up urs and show that you are ready for a vigorous intellectual exercise, arguing with you is like trying to train a donkey.

Again i see your harebrained premise in bold, Tacitus never claimed any authorship of the annals too.

The bible and the so called books of moses are not your thoughts, ideas or writtings either. . . why are you defending a book which was written thousands of years before you were born and who's purported author never claimed any authorship of the writtings? when independent analysis points to the contrary? are you a talking donkey? the bible says that donkeys can talk perharps you are one of them. . . .

You are a complete joke. . . when pressed in a corner you come up with nonsensical excuses that makes your fellow imbeciles cringe. . for example

when embarassed by the fact that the authors of most of the books of the bible are unknown or not who the bible claims you come up with the stupid narrative that others did not claim authorship of their works too most of the authors of the bible never claimed any authorship of the books ascribe to them that says a lot about the book. . .

when confronted with the fact that the biblical god is a deranged mass murderer who loves killing and maiming innocent people you come up with some lame excuse that allah is a mass muderer too or that hitler and his contemporaries were mass murderers or that the people killed were fair targets you are a delusional goat. . .

when confronted with the fact that the biblical god is a strong lover and advocate of slavery  as potrayed in the bible you come up with some convulated excuse that moslems are presently enslaving people in mauritania. . how stupid and blockheaded can one be?

when confronted with the fact that so many of the biblical assertions like the tower of babel, noah's ark,jonah's story, falling stars, snakes eating dust, exodus narrative etc can not be supported by science or history you come up with the names of catholic  scientists who history has revealed were heretics or could not come out outrightly and denounce the fallacies that are in the bible during their days as devout christains who also believed in such nonsense. . .

its very hard to have an intellectual disscusion with you because you are a stupid joke. . .

[

Adam Brody:
@

To all you anti-Devil or Satan or whatever you choose to call him;

I just have 2 questions to ask

1. Show me anywhere in the bible where the so called devil lied to anybody personally and i will show you were god confessed that he lied and repented for his evil actions?

2. Tell me how many people did the Devil kill or destroy or murder senselessly in the bible and compare that amount to the number god killed and murdered brutally.

Just a set of fair questions!

One more thing, if god is so wise and intelligent, why did he have to destroy the whole world through a flood when he was omniscent and knew the same creations he made in future would turn back on him? If he saw the people misbehaving, why didnt he just pick them out one by one instead of destroying the WHOLE WORLD because he was angry that no body gave a hoot about him?

That doesnt sound like an all intelligent god, rather more of a cosmic slowpoke running amok with no sense of decency or intelligence whatsoever!

I wonder where they christains got this the devil is a liar mantra?. . .  when it has been clearly eastablished that the biblical god has lied and is a liar. . . there is no record of the devil lying or misleading people in the bible apart from the temptation of jesus christ . . which to me is not a temptation at all but there are so many records of the biblical god outrightly misleading people and lying to them. . this people are really a joke. . . .

davidylan:
Its obvious u've never read or seen the book in question.
- There is NO mention of the name "tacitus" in the entire book.
- The earliest hint as to Tacitus being the author came a good 100 years after the book was written.

I repeat again, think before you post.

This is a lie and you know it. . . who told you that the earliest hint came 100 years after he died? one of your fellow bible apologist? can you provide evidence to support your assertions? apart from the biblical assertions how did you know that moses wrote the books? he never said he did and there are more than enough reasons to show that he did'nt uptil now you have not reasonabely shown that moses wrote any of the books beside you nonsensical talking points. . . and the popular belief that he did which is false. . .

Before we delve into much detail of how we know who wrote what in the early Old Testament, you should have an understanding of the different components combined to form the five books of the Pentateuch. This “document hypothesis” states that there were probably four authors and an editor responsible for the compilation. Since it’s currently impossible to determine their hypothetical identities, we commonly refer to them as J, E, P, D, and R for the reasons we’ll now discuss.

      J received his name because he consistently uses JHWH as the unpronounceable name of God. Issues relating to humanity are the primary focus of his writing. J even extends this humanity-based focus by portraying a uniquely human interpretation of God. This author is compassionate and shows none of the bias against women . Seeing as how J wrote a complete historical record of the Israelites from a Judean perspective, he probably resided within the Southern Kingdom of Judea. Based on clues found within his text, historians typically place a 950-750 BCE date on the work, which is about 500-700 years following the death of Moses.

      E, whose primary focus is morality, acquired his name because he consistently uses Elohim as the name of God. E commonly emphasized the second born sons of families because they were of historical and personal interest to the North for symbolic reasons. Since E left us with a complete account of the Israelites from the perspective of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, historians generally believe that this was his domicile. Thus, we already have two independent accounts of early Middle Eastern history. Since the split of Israel took place no earlier than 950 BCE, it’s exceedingly unlikely that such a contrasting influence would appear in his work before that time. Consequently, estimated dates for the E document range from 900-700 BCE.

      P obtained his name because he was almost certainly a priest. He identifies Aaron, the first High Priest, as his spiritual ancestor. His manuscripts include rituals, laws, sins, chronologies, genealogies, and other subjects of definite interest to a priest. In sharp contrast to J, P doesn’t attribute any human qualities to God. The Hebrew terms equivalent to mercy, grace, and repentance don’t appear once in P’s work, while they’re plentiful in the compositions of J and E. Furthermore, P is often cold and harsh with his writing unlike the more pleasant E. These interpretations and attitudes are what we would expect from a traditional church leader. He doesn’t include any mythical details, such as the ludicrous claims of talking animals, likely interpolated into history by J and E as a result of popular urban legends. As he was seemingly aware of the books of prophecy, while J and E never gave this indication, P probably wrote his share much later around 700-650 BCE.

      D received his name because he was the author of Deuteronomy. It’s a good possibility that D wrote many of the historical books as well. It’s an even better possibility that he wrote the book of Jeremiah, which contains several carbon copies of statements made in the book of Deuteronomy. If this is the case, the author could be Jeremiah’s scribe, Baruch, or Jeremiah himself. D most certainly lived in Israel during a very spiritual era, the same era in which the likely author claimed to have discovered the book. Evidence for the document hypothesis indicates that the person compiling the Pentateuch tacked the author’s work onto the end of the compilation. Thus, we would expect it to have been created after, not in concurrent conflict with, the other three circulating versions of Jewish history. It then follows that the author probably finished it shortly before its “discovery” in 622 BCE.

      We designate the individual responsible for combining the four accounts into one collection as R because he’s the redactor (editor). The process finally came to a conclusion some time around 500-434 BCE, but may have begun as early as the Babylonian Exile of 587-539 BCE. R also adds bits and pieces of commentary to make necessary transitions between the passages. The scholarly community consensually believes this redactor is the biblical priest Ezra.

      To illustrate the document hypothesis, we’ll take a detailed look at the first eight chapters of Genesis. You may find it helpful to locate and follow along in a Bible before proceeding further.

      One creation story scribed by P appears from Genesis 1:1-2:3. Notice that the first half of 2:4 doesn’t maintain the flow and seems to segue into the second creation account found in 2:4-2:25. That’s likely the redactor making a transition between P’s and J’s creation stories. J continues to the end of the fourth chapter with some recollections of stories centered on Adam and his children. Chapter 5 then hastily jumps in with some genealogy from P or R, but verse 29, written by J, seems recklessly tossed into the mix.

      At the commencement of chapter six, J regains control and supplies a few verses set in the time immediately prior to Noah’s flood. This account abruptly stops following 6:8, and P’s story of Noah begins with his lineage. Furthermore, this section by P is an obvious repetition of the days before the flood, provided earlier in the chapter by J. Genesis 7:1 seems to pick right back up where J left off at 6:8. Genesis 7:6, written by P, appears haphazardly thrown in because it interrupts a cohesive story told by J. Verses 7:7, 7:10, 7:12, 7:17-20, and 7:22-23 tell one full story of the flood (J) while 7:8-9, 7:11, 7:13-16, 7:21, and 7:24 tell another (P). In chapter eight, J likely recorded verses 2, 3, 6, 8-12, the last part of 13, and 20-22, while the remaining verses stand alone as another complete story by the author P. If you happen to be carefully reading the texts in their native Hebrew language, you may even notice the contrasting writing styles of the two authors beginning to emerge.

these are the reasons that suggest moses did not write the books. . . . provide your own reason to show that moses wrote the books. . . as i pointed out billions believe that mohammed wrote the quran which is false the koran was written after he died. . . but billions still believe he wrote the koran. . . i said moses never claimed any authorship its now up to you to show that he wrote the books. . . provide evidence or forever shut up and keep quite. . .

davidylan:
The same argument could be levied against Tacitus being the author of Tacitus' Annals.

sometimes you need to think before you post.

try again . . . where has it been established that tacitus did not declear authorship in the book? you are a stupid joke. . .

davidylan:
thank you. Case closed. Now we know you are nothing but an empty shell who can copy and paste but has no capacity for independent thot.

I'll wait for your more intelligent brethren.

look who is talking. . . is the bible your own reason or thought? why are you talking about independent thoughts? can you reason independently and explain to me how jonah survived inside a fish for 3 days using your knowledge of biology? the person that has no capacity of independednt thought is you. . . . run away like you always do. . . .

davidylan:
No be fight too . . . i'm not a jew.

But here is my own point:

1. Just as we have ghost writers of biographies and speech writers, would it have been impossible that scribes wrote the 5 books of Moses under the guidance of Moses?

2. If indeed that was true . . . is it impossible that the scribes then included the death of Moses in what turned out to be the last chapter in the last of the 5 books?

3. If the book was written independently by another writer, why did it abruptly end with the death of Moses?

4. you ask for the evidence that Moses wrote the 5 books, can i also ask for YOUR OWN evidence that someone else wrote those books independently of Moses?
Athiests crow so much that the 5 books could not have been written by Moses, what they forget to tell us however is WHO they think wrote it . . . did they appear out of thin air?

5. If someone else wrote the books, why did they not indicate authorship as is the general farcical argument against Moses' authorship?

no where in any of the books did moses claim any authorship. . . you are a charlatan. . . mohammed never wrote any of the books in the koran. . . neither did allah. . . most of the koran was assembled after his death but he is still believed to be the author of the koran by billions of people all over the world, the same things applies to moses. . . go ahead and break your neck moses is not the author of the books because he never claimed any authorship in any of them. . . . and that is enough. . . some of the reasons you outlined are completely ridiculous. . and completely comfirms that you are a block head. . .

davidylan:
Will Mazaje answer a simple question please?

you havent answered a single question reasonably but here you are hyperventilating that i don't want to answer a simple questionlike i already stated you are a stupid joke. . .
-

. . . a deductive approach to historical reconstruction is fundamentally unscientific, since the "science" of Wellhausen and those who followed his methods was not the science that brought about the scientific revolution of modern times, because the method of true science starts with observation, whereas these writers started with a theory and then used that theory to reconstruct history. They either trampled on or ignored such observations as were beginning to come from archaeological findings in the ancient Near East.

- Rodger C. Young, "Inductive and Deductive Methods as Applied to OT Chronology," The Master's Seminary Journal 18 (2007) 100

Its not surprising that its the very same charge that has been laid against you and others of your ilk. Perhaps it is important to take note of this fundamental fact - the  method of TRUE SCIENCE starts with OBSERVATION.

why should the assertions of your fellow bible apologist be regarded more than the guys i listed? any peer acknowledgement of his work? you are one gullible mumu. . . .

You keep repeating this falsehood. The hebrew writers wrote pelesheth. Which does not mean palestina but "land of the philistines".
Its not rocket science

what is this are you drunk?

It doesnt say anything because that line of reasoning is faulty. Authorship does not depend solely on someone deliberately laying claims to such a document. If that were the case thousands of historical documents whose authorship are surprisingly never questioned would be rendered invalid.

This clearly show that you are a very dishonest charlatan. . . you are a real joke. . this are the type of senseless excuses christain apologist give to discredit what every body knows to be true. . . does what you say sound sensible to you at all? no where did moses claim authorship of any of the books and that says more than enough. . . .can you list some of the historical books?

if it is indeed true that it is impossible for the Jews to have built the city of Raamses when Raamses ruled 127 years AFTER the exodus . . . can you explain how the name Raamses appears on the tomb of Amenhotep III who ruled 100 years before Raamses II?

you are a senseless charlatan. . . .

davidylan:
How does Dr. Jason Long explain the fact that the name Raamses is found inscribed on the burial tomb painting of Amenhotep III who ruled about 100 years before Raamses II?

how do you explain the myth of jonah surviving inside a fish for 3 days or the tower of bable rubbish and all the other jargons that are not scientifically and humanly possible that were written in the bible?

[b]Thou hypocrite . . . how about citing your references next time when you copy others word for word and then tell us they are your own "reasons"?[/b]http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter12.html

is the bible your own words or reason? why are you defending a book that was written thousands of years before you were born with so many scientific, factual human errors and imposibility? you are a delutional know nothing slowpoke. . . .if you were to write a book today i know that you will write a better book than the bible. . .

davidylan:
1. you bandy around the term "scholars" too loosely. Who are these mysterious "scholars"? Care to at least name 2 or 3?

here are a few names. . Julius Wellhausen, John Van Seters and Thomas L. Thompson

2. Look at this analogy - much of Obama's speeches were written by hired speech writers, does that mean the speech isnt Obamas?
- Ever heard of ghost writers helping people write biographies? Does that mean the biography wasnt written by that individual?

This example just shows how blockheaded you really are. . . .I gave you an example of a city included in one of the books where it was clearly shown that the city existed long after moses was dead and you discredited it with a a joke of a rebuttal, i showed you The Exodus Timeline Inconsistencies you did not refute that at all  you are a joke this is one of your "catholics are devoted christains" moment, you should be ashmed of yourself. . .

Your claim that because Moses may have written the pentateuchs with the help of scribes means he didnt write any books is a ridiculous farce . . .

moses might have had some writtings but the authours of the Pentateuch took some of his writtings added a LOT to it and ascribed it to moses. . by the way this was done long after he died. . . no where in any of the books did moses claim authourship of any of the books that says more than enough. . .

You claim to have "given so many reasons" . . . i beg your pardon, you gave NO reasons at all. All you did was copy and paste things you didnt understand

You claimed to have "given many rebuttals" i beg your pardon you are a JOKE you clearly were running around grasping at straws. you clearly do not know what you were typing because you have been blinded by dogma. . .

Bastage:
So if Wikipedia has a page on the General Theory of Relativaty and a link to Einstien, we can treat it as trash then can we?

I'd put way more faith into Wikipedia than I would The Bible. At least the former is generally updated and corrected when errors are noted.

the bible too has been corrected when errors were noted. . . . some of the errors could not be corrected or updated because it will turn the bible into the joke that it really is. . . .

davidylan:
No one disagrees on the original translation of pelesheth (WHICH IS THE ISSUE HERE IDIOT!)

the only people who have a problem with it are dunces like you who desperately want Ex 15:14 to read "palestina" so they can have an excuse to rubbish the bible.

what are you saying? keep on using words to deluded yourself. . . .what have you got to say about the other disagreements? desperate attempts too?

Go back to post #41. You are a dishonest person.

are you drunk? like i said earlier i almost thought you were intelligent but you clearly showed that you are a know nothing who is always quick in beating his chest and proclaiming his intellegence superiority over others when you are clearly a blockheaded know nothing. . . . all you did was dance around and spew nonsensical talking points with out addressing anything. . . is that what you call a rebuttal? you are a joke. . . .

established by who? I asked Benegor and Bastage this same question and they don't know the answer either.

Is it so hard to produce this "established" facts?

By so many scholars and by yourself. . . .

davidylan:
. Infact we know that most of the books of the Kings (samuel, chronicles, Kings) were written by scribes (equivalent of speech writers today). It is more logical that Moses must have written the books ascribed to him with the help of scribes and associates who then included details about his death in the book of Deuteronomy (not surprisingly the last book of Moses).

it least you admitted that he wrote it with the help of scribes and associateswhat ever that means. . . . i say moses did not write any of the books i gave so many reasons and all you did was dance around them and declear them no reasons at all without refuting them. . . .

ok here is another reason to show that some of the events talked about in the books were written long after moses died. . .

The Exodus: Timeline Inconsistencies

      Now let’s turn to the particular account of the Exodus and consider the possibility of such a magnificent event taking place. First, we should recognize the plethora of peculiarities concerning the approximate time that the authors say the enslavement and subsequent Exodus took place. We arrive at the aforementioned 1500 BCE estimate for the Exodus because the three different chronologies used to date it differ by about 150 years but tend to center around the designated 1500 BCE date. We commonly use the most accepted and latest possible date of 1447 BCE because it’s the easiest to derive.

      1 Kings 6:1 says that Solomon’s fourth year as ruler was concurrent with the 480th anniversary of the Exodus. Given that Solomon began his first year of rule in 970 BCE, his fourth year as ruler would have been in 967 BCE. Consequently, the Exodus must have taken place 480 years prior in 1447 BCE. Establishing the exact date isn’t as important as obtaining a period to which the events must be bound in order to compare it to established historical events.

      According to the Bible, the Israelite slaves were used to build the Egyptian cities of Pithom and Raamses (Exodus 1:11). Since the Exodus took place no later than 1447 BCE, the Israelites would have at least had to start construction on Raamses by that time in order for the story to remain reliable. In a great setback to Christian apologists, there wasn’t even a Pharaoh named Raamses until 1320 BCE, 127 years after the Exodus. For an additional dagger in the heart of biblical inerrancy, consider Egypt’s own records. These archaeological findings state that Egypt’s own people built the city and not until it came via order of Raamses II who reigned from 1279-1213 BCE. A Hebrew writing a story of his origins several hundred years after all these events had long played out would have had no way of determining when Raamses was constructed without committing to a thorough investigation of Egypt’s historical records. Needless to say, the author didn’t have such access and made a poor guess on when the city was actually built.

davidylan:
After so much directionless foaming in the mouth . . . have you goone to check the REAL meaning of the term "pelesheth" as it appears in the original Hebrew rendering of Ex 15:14?

Now its back to the original hebrew text, i gave you an example where christain and jewish scholars disagree on original translation and you discarded it as i copied it from wikipedia hence it is invalid without providing any relevant rebuttal now you are going back to using the original hebrew text mantra. . . keep on going round and round. . .