₦airaland Forum

striktlymi: I don't accept IVF too!

Because?. . .

bolaino: Nice writeup, it's sad but it's the truth, most acts of violence being perpetrated in the states are being done by black people, take chicago for instance, the increase in gang violence there is quite disturbing, and these gangs are made up of 80% blacks, and 20% mixed, the black people in the US commit more homicide. So let's just face the truth, zimmerman made a wrong decision, but he can't be blamed solely for making that decision, the black americans should feel a sense of responsibility for failing in their duties as guardians.

Sup mann, it's been way too long, where have u been? Hope u're cool though?

So true, am good man. . .I have been around. . .Hope you are good as well. .Best wishes. . .

red jasper: It's amazing we can be victims of white CRIMINALITY for over 400 years yet a few of us become of the inclination black on black crime of the last 35 years as the be all end all to black american woes in this country. It's more than amazing to me! Black on black crime is crime molded by DESIGN, remember blacks only control 1/2 of 1% percent of the wealth in this country, by DEFAULT we don't have the ability to even be held responsible for the state of conduct that's rampant throughout our streets that's been designed to keep us in the condition of a permanent underclass.

Whitey likes to play that game of double dealing, he knows that if given a fair shot blacks in america will always excel (Black Wallstreet) he knows that black america hasn't received what was due to them, he knows the values under which blacks in america have been subjugated to over 300 years, WHITEY knows all this and what he knows best is that if "he throws a Few BONES (obama) every now and then to us" he can kill 2 birds with 1 stone and leave plenty of black FOLK with a serious case of stockholm's syndrome along the way.

Imagine that, whitey bamboozling his way into redemption and salvation before even paying out a damn penny. It's amazing and I'd be on the floor rolling around laughing right now if the situation wasn't so dire! We can accept the fact that we have a cancer in black on black crime in america, but more importantly we should come to accept the fact we didn't develop a stage 4 cancer overnight!

So whites are responsible for all the black on black crime in the USA and for the fact that blacks are dis-proportionally involved in the criminal justice system as perpetrators of violence?. . .

Why can't atheist just agree that the big bang and evolution are plausible explanations for what we see around. . .The dogmatic approach that some atheist hold about these explanations is mind boggling. . .Big bang, evolution seem very plausible and actually explain a lot with some evidence to back them up. . . .But we do not know them to be facts, do we?. . .

idnoble135: lol, this guy is funny. Hope you know that God is not against you taking drugs?

IVF is also like a drug, so nothing wrong with it for christians that are unable to conceive naturally. . .

[quote author=J.Sparrow]Discussig with a female friend this evening and was suprised to find out that she considered the IVF procedure to be in conflict with the bibliccal concept of " waiting on the Lord". Personally I see IVF as every other fertility treatment. I believe when medical options have been exhausted or when there was no medical condition in the first place then the concept of "waitin on the Lord" can set in. By the way a succesful IVF procedure is a miracle in itself. That's my opinion anyway would like to hear your contributions please[/quote]Here is what the bible recommends for sick people. . .


Jam 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.

Jam 5:15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

Why do christians go to hospitals and take drugs from pharmacies since the bible has clearly told them what to do when they fall sick?. . ..

Pygru: by Matt Slick


The atheist, in my opinion, has arrogantly challenged God by viewing non-answered prayer as evidence that he does not exist. The Bible says that God hides himself from the proud ( James 4:6). So according to Scripture, atheists cannot and will not see that prayer works and they will continue to deny God and elevate their own sense of truth and reality.

http://carm.org/atheist-prayer-does-not-work

Prayers does not work anywhere. . .Even the author of this articles knows it, He even goes about writing nonsense about the bible. . .By the way James 4:6 does not say that god hides from the proud. . . .The bible does not say its god hides from any body any where. . .Here is what it says. . .

James 4:6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.

idnoble135: All ears...

IVF is the process by which egg is fertilized by sperm outside the body. . .The process involves observing a woman's ovulatory process, removing ovum or ova (egg or eggs) from the woman's ovaries and letting sperm fertilize them in a fluid medium in a laboratory. The sperm for married couples mostly comes from the husband. . .25 percent of women can not conceive naturally due to one medical condition or the other, so IVF is the miracle or cure they need. . .

idnoble135: It is looks controversial truly, considering the fact that a woman going for the IVF means she is fertile but not so with her hubby.
That implies that she would be recieving the seed of another man to make her pregnant.
To me, it is permissible in as much the donor of the seed is anonymous and her husband is aware and agrees with this step.

The part in bold is very false. . .

Are you a thief, a liar or both?. . .

In the aftermath of the acquittal of George Zimmerman, Eric Holder, Al Sharpton and Ben Jealous of the NAACP are calling on the black community to rise up in national protest.

Yet they know — and Barack Obama, whose silence speaks volumes, knows — nothing is going to happen.

"Stand-Your-Ground" laws in Florida and other states are not going to be repealed. George Zimmerman is not going to be prosecuted for a federal "hate crime" in the death of Trayvon Martin.

The result of all this ginned-up rage that has produced vandalism and violence is simply going to be an ever-deepening racial divide.

Consider the matter of crime and fear of crime.

From listening to cable channels and hearing Holder, Sharpton, Jealous and others, one would think the great threat to black children today emanates from white vigilantes and white cops.

Hence, every black father must have a "conversation" with his son, warning him not to resist or run if pulled over or hassled by a cop.

Make the wrong move, son, and you may be dead is the implication.

But is this the reality in Black America?

When Holder delivered his 2009 "nation-of-cowards" speech blaming racism for racial separation, Manhattan Institute's Heather Mac Donald suggested that our attorney general study his crime statistics.

In New York from January to June 2008, 83 percent of all gun assailants were black, according to witnesses and victims, though blacks were only 24 percent of the population. Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98 percent of all gun assailants. Forty-nine of every 50 muggings and murders in the Big Apple were the work of black or Hispanic criminals.

New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly confirms Mac Donald's facts. Blacks and Hispanics commit 96 percent of all crimes in the city, he says, but only 85 percent of the stop-and-frisks are of blacks and Hispanics.

And these may involve the kind of pat-downs all of us have had at the airport.

Is stop-and-frisk the work of racist cops in New York, where the crime rate has been driven down to levels unseen in decades?

According to Kelly, a majority of his police force, which he has been able to cut from 41,000 officers to 35,000, is now made up of minorities.

But blacks are also, per capita, the principal victims of crime. Would black fathers prefer their sons to grow up in Chicago, rather than low-crime New York City, with its stop-and-frisk policy?

Fernando Mateo, head of the New York taxicab union, urges his drivers to profile blacks and Hispanics for their own safety: "The God's honest truth is that 99 percent of the people that are robbing, stealing, killing these drivers are blacks and Hispanics."

Mateo is what The New York Times would describe as "a black Hispanic" Yet he may be closer to the 'hood than Holder, who says he was stopped by police when running to a movie — in Georgetown.

Which raises a relevant question. Georgetown is an elitist enclave of a national capital that has been ruled by black mayors for half a century. It's never had a white mayor.

Is Holder saying we've got racist cops in the district where Obama carried 86 percent of the white vote and 97 percent of the black vote? And his son should fear the white cops in Washington, D.C.?

What about interracial crime, white-on-black attacks and the reverse?

After researching the FBI numbers for "Suicide of a Superpower," this writer concluded: "An analysis of 'single offender victimization figures' from the FBI for 2007 finds blacks committed 433,934 crimes against whites, eight times the 55,685 whites committed against blacks. Interracial rape is almost exclusively black on white — with 14,000 assaults on white women by African Americans in 2007. Not one case of a white sexual assault on a black female was found in the FBI study."

Though blacks are outnumbered 5-to-1 in the population by whites, they commit eight times as many crimes against whites as the reverse. By those 2007 numbers, a black male was 40 times as likely to assault a white person as the reverse.

If interracial crime is the ugliest manifestation of racism, what does this tell us about where racism really resides — in America?

And if the FBI stats for 2007 represent an average year since the Tawana Brawley rape-hoax of 1987, over one-third of a million white women have been sexually assaulted by black males since 1987 — with no visible protest from the civil rights leadership.

Today, 73 percent of all black kids are born out of wedlock. Growing up, these kids drop out, use drugs, are unemployed, commit crimes and are incarcerated at many times the rate of Asians and whites — or Hispanics, who are taking the jobs that used to go to young black Americans.

Are white vigilantes or white cops really Black America's problem?

Obama seems not to think so. The Rev. Sharpton notwithstanding, he is touting Ray Kelly as a possible chief of homeland security.

Patrick J. Buchanan is the author of "Suicide of a Superpower: Will America Survive to 2025?" To find out more about Patrick Buchanan and read features by other Creators writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators webpage at www.creators.com.

http://news.yahoo.com/black-americas-real-problem-isnt-white-racism-070000529.html;_ylt=A2KJ2UaYhOlRqw8AhQTQtDMD

Emusan: I left this thread because your claims didn't hold anything but I came back to answer your questions in Anony's thread here.

You left the thread only because your ignorance was exposed. . .You obviously did not even know what the earth's atmosphere was. . .You clearly did not know that the earth's atmosphere is layer of gases surrounding the planet earth that is retained by earth's gravity, your claimed the earth's atmosphere was formed from water. . .LOL!. . .

Many months ago that you're Ape-like descendant.

When did i tell you this?. . . . . .Stop going to answers in genesis to copy nonsense. . .

Life began with God

This is just a useless claim that has no evidence. . .Life began with Shiva the Hindu goddess, pls prove that I am wrong. . .

This is the mistake that most atheist make believing cells are LIFE. Now research has shown it beyond any reasonable doubt that LIFE is not part of cell, cells are just LIFE carriers. Which reseach is that? Reseach about natural death shows that cell remians intact about few hours after death.

But cells themselves are alive. . .The have the full characteristics of living things and they themselves are living things. . .What exactly are you yapping about?. . .There are many single cell organisms that exist every where. . .

In the process of natural death scientis descover that 1) heartbeat, breathings and circulations of blood stop first which is called clinical death, 2)four to five minutes later cells begin to die(losing energy) bit by bit which is called biological death. After someone died all the person's cell are still there only thing they observe was that there're not working anymore.
The question now is what is that partcular thing that is making those cells to work?

Cells are living things on their own. . .What did your god use in creating cells?. . .How did he create them and when did he create the fist cell?. . .How an your prove to me that your Jewish myth of a god created cells and not Shiva?. . .

See where you expose your ignorance but you believe only one life started it all on what you don't know its beginning..No scientist ever prove it..how will you know?

Where did I tell you that is what I believe?. . .

If no one knows then evolution calim is wrong! How?

*Mazaje is the last born in their family
*Mazaje has two sisters
*mazaje is a male because I saw (m) beside his username on NL
*mazaje lives outside nigeria because I saw it on NL
*mazaje's families reside outside Denmark
*mazaje has married with two beautiful kids a boy and a girl

Please tell me maybe I'm wrong.

What is this joke pls?. . .

Did you know that most physics theory are in question because of 'dark energy' now?

And dark energy supports the myth that things were spoken into existence using the Hebrew language?. . .

This is not the answer my question, is everything observable in nature?

It is not everything that is in nature that we have the ability to observes, your mythical god is said to be supernatural, meaning he exist outside of nature. . he exists in myths and fictitious stories and claims. . .

donigspain: How come the experience stopped long time ago even though I never followed those ^^ steps?

The guy is a liar, a conspiracy theorist and a failed fear monger. . .

Logicboy03: Striky my man!


Fire on!

Some friendly fire from striktlymi. . . .

Them no go ever hear. . .End times indeed. . .

Emusan: Because you believe in theory of evolution.

I told you this when and where?. . .

Is it 'you' or 'we'? If it is you, well I know how life began but if it is we(atheist) then how Dawkin is so sure that only one life started it all and how does he know much about life despite that he doesn't know life origin?

Tell me how life began. . .What was used in creating cells for example. . .How were cells created and what was used in creating them. . .When was the first cell created?. . .And how did you know this to be true?. . .Pls tell. . .Don't go about referring me to quote from ancient religious mythical books. . .Cos i will only laugh at you. . .

You call it superstition but your own that doesn't know know the origin of life is not superstition, hnmm!

I have never claimed to know how life began. . .That is a question NO one knows. . .You are just happy to believe the superstition you have been indoctrinated with since childhood that's all. ..

Just resemble the myth of big ba.ng ofcourse.

There is much more evidence for the big ba.ng than evidence that Yahweh spoke things into existence using the hebrew language. . .

Why can't you answer 'yes or no' efore you ask your own question?

How does this prove that the god idea created by the ancient Jews exist in reality?. . .

Mr anony: ........and your evidence is?

by the way, how did you make the jump from "he might be..." to "he clearly is..."?

LOL!. . .The guy is obviously a gay christian actor. . .

Emusan: Do you have evidence for the first cell, how is formed, where it started from, when it begun before you believe that RM & NS cause it to evolve all lives we see on earth?....blind faith in motion

Straw man. . .When and where did I ever tell you about any first cell?. . .You do NOT know have life on earth began period. . .That you chose to believe that some superstitious Jewish mythical invention did it is your own problem. . .By the way how do you go from the earth was created to asinine claims that the bible is the word of the creator of the universe. . .Does the character portrayed in the bible resemble an entity that can create anything talk more of the universe?. . .

Fit perfect to my question above.


Last question for you or anyone who can help you out, do you believe that everything is observable in this nature?

How does this prove that the god idea created by the ancient Jews exist in reality?. . .

vedaxcool: which kind sense be this? In Nigeria people tend to congregate around ethnicity it is funny the author seem not to have ever heard of the Rwandan genocide in which people who shared the same religion where at each other throat, this resort to simpleton and superficial explanation of complicated problems seems to be at the very heart of problems in Nigeria than religion or ethnicity, a yoruba muslim will like identify with a yoruba christian than a huasa muslim an dvice versa on socio-economic and even political issues and because the west dunmp religion we should follow suit? please this rejecters of religion and blame God for your own failures people should have some dignity and be proud of who they are.

To claim that religion is presently not one of the problems facing Nigeria today is just a lie. . .The greatest problem facing Nigeria today which might lead to its division if care is not taking is islamic extremism. . .

hisblud: ok oh ...silence *whistling...* ...someone is raving here like a lunatic...oops...

Go and meet your gay christian brother in the video and tell him to stop lying for Jesus. . .

More from the christian that was posing as an ex muslim. . .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-MIZdCKLoQ

Alfa Seltzer: Why are atheists squirming here? Even if the guy were an atheist, it still doesn't prove that doG exists.

What I saw was a short-wearing jobless man that saw a fellow jobless man holding a sign on a corner and wanted a banter. What has that got to do with the existence of the Flying Divine Monster?

LOL! The guy is a christian actor. . .Here is another christian actor posing as an ex muslim. .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDyOaCJ3t0

hisblud: Hmm so athiest dont have the balls to rave like this...they are just rational ... so much for rationality tell that to Richard Dawkins


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzvEizDLLSs

This is nothing. . .He was just telling atheist to ridicule christians something which I agree with myself. . .If you go about claiming things you have no evidence for, things which are obvious mythology and fiction then you better stay away from me or be mocked for being a lunatic. . .Only lunatics go about talking about myths and fiction as if they are true. . .

Logicboy03: Anony is a dubious tool. Kalis first posted this video weeks ago.

The guy in the video is either a mentally unstable guy or a christian actor. I can find thousands of videos of christians behaving like trash with their full cognitive abilities. Anony found one dodgy video and he is happy!

There are numerous videos of atheists on youtube. Is this guy representative of atheists or atheists in videos? No


Trolling for christ

The guy is clearly a christian actor. . .

hisblud: would like to see it and be educated

I don't have time to be digging into it. . .It was a popular thread on the islamic section. . Go through vexdacools post if you have the time. . .I don't at the moment. . .

hisblud: what was written on that postcard that was making the man rave


mazaje, if i could remember, when Richard Dawkins was raving that religion should be resisted [his disciple is ooman], did you see any christian raving around like that man

That man might be a christian. . .Christians are known for doing that. . .I gave you examples of some that went about lying about being ex muslims just to promote christianity and lie for Jesus. . .

He might be a christian acting up by trying to be an atheist in order to give atheists a bad name. . .Christians have done such many many times. . .There is a video posted by vexdacool about christians posing as ex muslims on the islam section. . .Christians always act, pose and lie for Jesus. . .Nothing new there. . .

Sorry with regards to Justin Martyr here are the full quotes from his work. . .It is from his first apologia. . .I got it wrong. . .

Here is it. . .

From the first apologia. . .

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound NOTHING DIFFERENT from WHAT YOU BELIEVE regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. (Justin Martyrs First Apology)

He is telling the roman rulers that what the christians believe in is nothing different than what the Roman pagans believe in, that Jupiter who is one of their gods also had sons, making them sons of god. Justin then goes on to mention other beliefs of these Roman pagans of people ascending into heaven just like Jesus did etc.

First apologia. . .

Diabolical Mimicry

For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, [wicked demons] put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvelous tales, like the things which were said by the poets.

The devils... said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. (Referring to Jesus turning water to wine as Dionysus, or Bacchus, did 600 years earlier.)

[The devils] gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. (Reference to Jesus riding into town on an ass.)

And when [the devils] heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. (Reference to Perseus being born of a virgin before Jesus.)

And when, again, [the devils] learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Aesculapius. (Reference to virtually all of the miracles of Jesus being copies of Aesculapius.)

Mimicry of Baptism

And the devils, indeed, having heard this washing [baptism] published by the prophet, instigated those who enter their temples, and are about to approach them with libations and burnt-offerings, also to sprinkle themselves.


Mimicry of Eucharist

Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

These pagan religions all came first. Justin Martyr is not claiming that they copied Christianity after Jesus came, but that "wicked devils" knew ahead of time of Jesus' coming, and thus set up pre-copies of Christianity.

He makes reference to virtually every rite and doctrine found within Christianity - baptism, Eucharist, virgin birth, crucifixion, water into wine, resurrection. . . .

My point still remains that the christian story and doctrine is not uniquely christian since. . .If Jesus was bron of a virgin according to the stories written then Perseus too was also born of a virgin according to stories written about him. . .

Mr anony: ....continuation


Erhm Mazaje, I think you have just quoted Justin Martyr completely out of context. Maybe you went to some website somewhere and lapped that up without even bothering to investigate it's source at all. The Second Apology of Justin Martyr was written to the Roman Senate to protest the persecution Christians were going through under Quintus Lollius Urbicus. It had nothing to do with responding to any such arguments as you claim.

Here is a link to the full document. Read it and tell us how your theory fits in
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm

Here also is the immediate surrounding context for the passage you presented. Please tell me again how it even remotely fits your thesis.

For I myself, too, when I was delighting in the doctrines of Plato, and heard the Christians slandered, and saw them fearless of death, and of all other-things which are counted fearful, perceived that it was impossible that they could be living in wickedness and pleasure. For what sensual or intemperate man, or who that counts it good to feast on human flesh, could welcome death that he might be deprived of his enjoyments, and would not rather continue always the present life, and attempt to escape the observation of the rulers; and much less would he denounce himself when the consequence would be death? This also the wicked demons have now caused to be done by evil men. For having put some to death on account of the accusations falsely brought against us, they also dragged to the torture our domestics, either children or weak women, and by dreadful torments forced them to admit those fabulous actions which they themselves openly perpetrate; about which we are the less concerned, because none of these actions are really ours, and we have the unbegotten and ineffable God as witness both of our thoughts and deeds. For why did we not even publicly profess that these were the things which we esteemed good, and prove that these are the divine philosophy, saying that the mysteries of Saturn are performed when we slay a man, and that when we drink our fill of blood, as it is said we do, we are doing what you do before that idol you honour, and on which you sprinkle the blood not only of irrational animals, but also of men, making a libation of the blood of the slain by the hand of the most illustrious and noble man among you? And imitating Jupiter and the other gods in sodomy and shameless intercourse with woman, might we not bring as our apology the writings of Epicurus and the poets? But because we persuade men to avoid such instruction, and all who practise them and imitate such examples, as now in this discourse we have striven to persuade you, we are assailed in every kind of way. But we are not concerned, since we know that God is a just observer of all. But would that even now some one would mount a lofty rostrum, and shout with a loud voice; "Be ashamed, be ashamed, you who charge the guiltless with those deeds which yourselves openly could commit, and ascribe things which apply to yourselves and to your gods to those who have not even the slightest sympathy with them. Be converted; become wise."

For I myself, when I discovered tile wicked disguise which the evil spirits had thrown around the divine doctrines of the Christians, to turn aside others from joining them, laughed both at those who framed these falsehoods, and at the disguise itself and at popular opinion and I confess that I both boast and with all my strength strive to be found a Christian; not because the teachings of Plato are different from those of Christ, but because they are not in all respects similar, as neither are those of the others, Stoics, and poets, and historians. For each man spoke well in proportion to the share he had of the spermatic word, seeing what was related to it. But they who contradict themselves on the more important points appear not to have possessed the heavenly wisdom, and the knowledge which cannot be spoken against. Whatever things were rightly said among all men, are the property of us Christians. For next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbegotten and ineffable God, since also He became man for our sakes, that becoming a partaker of our sufferings, He might also bring us healing. For all the writers were able to see realities darkly through the sowing of the implanted word that was in them. For the seed and imitation impacted according to capacity is one thing, and quite another is the thing itself, of which there is the participation and imitation according to the grace which is from Him.

And we therefore pray you to publish this little book, appending what you think right, that our opinions may he known to others, and that these persons may have a fair chalice of being freed from erroneous notions and ignorance of good, who by their own fault have become subject to punishment; that so these things may be published to men, because it is in the nature of man to know good and evil; and by their condemning us, whom they do not understand, for actions which they say are wicked, and by delighting in the gods who did such things, and even now require similar actions from men, and by inflicting on us death or bonds or some other such punishment, as if we were guilty of these things, they condemn themselves, so that there is no need of other judges.

False. . .From wikipedia it says. . .The Second apology was to expose the real reasons behind the recent persecutions of christians under Urbicus. It also tried to expose the allegations and propaganda spread against the christians. . . .The part I quoted was in response to some of the allegations. . .

Here is more from him. . .From his first apology. . .

Ch. 21

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.

Similar to above, Justin Martyr compares the birth of Jesus and his status as the "Word of God' to that of Mercury, who was also born in a similar way and who was also the "Word of God." He goes on to compare the crucifixion with the lives of the sons of Jupiter, which were on par according to him. Finally concluding by comparing the birth of Jesus with Perseus, and his miracles with that of Aesculapius.

Ch. 22

And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated.

And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by Aesculapius.

Ch 24.

In the first place [we furnish proof], because, t[b]hough we say things similar to what the Greeks say, we only are hated on account of the name of Christ[/b], and though we do no wrong, are put to death as sinners

Edited to add more quotes form Justin Martyr. . .The stories of Jesus are not uniquely christian as attested by Justin Martyr who is one of the early Church Fathers" figures in orthodox christianity who contributed to the key doctrines, beliefs, and history of the christian faith. . . . .

From first apologia. . .

Diabolical Mimicry

For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, [wicked demons] put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvelous tales, like the things which were said by the poets.

The devils... said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. (Referring to Jesus turning water to wine as Dionysus, or Bacchus, did 600 years earlier.)

[The devils] gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. (Reference to Jesus riding into town on an ass.)

And when [the devils] heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. (Reference to Perseus being born of a virgin before Jesus.)

And when, again, [the devils] learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Aesculapius. (Reference to virtually all of the miracles of Jesus being copies of Aesculapius.)

Be specific. Which writing of Tacitus in particular versus which gospel in particular? I want us to do a comparative analysis.

The writings of Tacitus begings with standard introduction. . .Non of the gospels author even claims to be anything. . .The four gospel accounts are just a mish mash of contradictions. . .

Erhm. . . .You are wrong sir. It appears in both the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus in Matthew, Luke, John and Acts. It only doesn't appear in Mark.

False. . .It appears in the later versions of Mark. . .The earliest manuscripts of Mark does not have it. . .It was a later addition. . .

davidylan: this right here is a classic example of the flippant dishonesty that riddles your long tomes. I might mispell "Lagos" as "Logos"... that has nothing to do with getting the geographical location of "Lagos" wrong. Clearly your argument was weak, anony took you to task and you have chosen to weasel your way out with laughable histrionics.

Any body that knows Lagos and is from Lagos can not misspell it at such a level. . .Mark did not not just misspell he just formed a different name. . .something that is very common with some one that does not have complete knowledge of the place. . .My position was to show that the writers of the gospels did not know Jesus or have ever meet him. .

Mr anony: I hope you do realize that spelling error (if it can be called that, for it might just as well have been a different name for the same region) is not the same as a geographical error. For if one person says "I traveled to England to see the palace of queen Elizabeth" and another says "I traveled to Britain to see the palace of queen Elizabeth". This wouldn't show a geographic error on anyone's part especially if they describe the place. The only way one can show a geographical error is if one shows that England are Britain are two distinct and different places such that it will be a contradiction to claim that the Palace of queen Elizabeth was in both places. The same applies if one says Britain and another refers to the same place as Britannia.
To show a geographical error, you must prove that Gerasenes and Gadarenes are two distinct places in that sense. Failure to do this and you cannot make the claim you are making.

You are just arguing blindly. . .Firstly, Mark a person that does not really know the place got the spelling wrong and Matthew a person that knows that place and corrected Marks error. . .This supports my claim that the NT authors were gentiles not Jews. . .

Lol, you are a funny guy, you have now shifted the goalposts. Of what use to us is the claim that the earliest surviving complete New Testament document is from the 4th century especially when you know that the New Testament is 27 individual books and were not exactly compiled together as one document (canon) until the 4th century. If the New testament was compiled (note I didn't say written) in the 4th Century, and the earliest surviving compilation we have is from the same 4th century it was compiled, then I really don't see the point you are trying to make. I wonder the kind of magic you are expecting. Do you seriously expect a compilation of the New Testament to show up before it was actually compiled?

I have not shifted any goals post. . .We do NOT have a complete NT manuscript any where from the first century. . .We have only tiny fragments of them from the second, 3rd and 4th century. . .We do NOT have a complete manuscripts of Mark, Luke, Mathew or John any where from the first, second or 3rd century, we only have fragments of them from the second, and 3rd centuries. . .We only have the complete manuscripts in the 4th century and only two of them survive. . .The complete manuscripts we have (about 95 percent of the complete manuscripts) come from the 8th century and the manuscripts from the 4th century greatly differ from the ones from the 8th century. . .What am i saying here? What I am saying is that the first complete manuscripts of Mark we have is from the 4th century. . .The first complete manuscripts of Mathew or any or any other book of the NT is from the 4th century. . .Fragments are NOT books, are they?. . .The books we have are reconstructions because the originals do not exist any where. . .We just have fragments of books from the second century which we are told were allegedly written in the first century. . .No body know when they were truly written. . .

Oh miracles happen all the time. The question is do you accept them as miracles or do you just jump back to Naturalistic worldview and deny them without any attempt at investigation?

LOL!. . .Repeating that miracles happen all the time means nothing. . .Jesus after all promised YOU as a believe the ability to do greater things than he did if its true then you should be able to demonstrate it. . .That you can't says it all. . .Clear cut miracles as reported in the NT do NOT happen, they happen only on the pages of ancient fictitious and mythical books. . .NOT in reality. . .All the miracle stories reported in the gospels are fictitious. . .

Lol, seriously, who told you that 1Corinthians was written long after Christ's death? (by long do you mean 5, 10, 20, 30, 50, 100, or 200 years? What exactly do you mean by "very long"
Secondly, you haven't still shown that the New testament was written "long" after Christs death by people who did not know Him. You just keep parroting the claim while I keep asking you to prove it and also tell us why you even think it is relevant.

Firstly, no one TRULY knows when the NT gospels were written, we just rely on scholarly opinion. They say that Mark is the first gospel because its short, they date it to about 70 AD because they said it mentions the destruction of the temple. But we don't know that as a fact. . .The first fragment of Mark that we have dates to 200 AD. . .No one know if the whole of Mark was written in 200 AD which is actually very possible. . .Scholars who happen to be mostly christians say that Mark was written about 40-50 years after the death of Jesus. We do not know that to be true, since the first fragment from the book of Mark was from over 200 years later. . .We do not have the original Mark any where, no one knows what it is or what it looks like. . .No one knows if the fragment we have and the reconstruction that has passed on to us by the church fathers are the same. . .No one knows. . .Even the quotation of the church fathers and the books we have now are not the same. . .

It is the argument you are trying to make from the quote that makes me pity you. If you cannot trust history because of the nature of history itself, then you really have no case in this debate because that is exactly what we are arguing.

Its you that has no case, you are the one trying to insist that the bible is true, when reality has shown that it is not. . .Ancient history is NOT reliable. The bible is pure fiction and mythology,just like any other religious document from that time period. . .

It is just like someone saying that the "field of science isn't fact but intelligent guesses on how the physical reality works therefore we cannot really trust it" Such a person has effectively lost any scientific case he wants to make thereafter because he has essentially thrown science under the bus and therefore cannot proceed to argue that any scientific statements he brings up are indeed true statements.

False, you keep making childish comparisons. . .Science can be tested. . .History can not. . .So you analogy falls flat. . .You keep insinuating about ancient history being reliable when historians themselves do not even make that claim. . .When the gospels were written fiction and reality were not separated. . .Ancient history is not reliable as acknowledged by historian, I wonder what you are on about. . .The bible does NOT pass the test of reality because most of what it reports dwell mostly in the realm of mythology and fiction. . .If the bible is true then YOU should be able to demonstrate it after all Jesus Promised YOU the ability to demonstrate its truth as long as you believe in him. . .If its true and since you are a believer then you should be able to demonstrate it. . .Period. . .The fact that NO believer on earth can demonstrate it means its false. .Simple. . .

That's arguing from silence still. For instance if I told you that "in Logicboy's house yesterday, he told Deep Sight that thehomer likes blue shirts"
The information has been passed. The fact that I didn't start by saying that "I was in Logicboy's house and...." is not proof that I wasn't there. In fact without me saying anything about where I was, it can be naturally assumed that either I was there or I heard it from someone who was there.
To make an argument that I was not in Logicboy's house is simply arguing from silence (i.e making my silence mean whatever you want it to mean)

The problem is that we just assume that the writer was an eye witness. . .The gospels were written in 3rd person narrative. . .People who witness events do not mostly write in 3rd person narrative. . .

Please read the verses again and read the article again too.

The article is a joke, the writer was just giving his opinion and trying to form his own gospel, its really laughable. . .He keeps saying things like maybe the writer of Mark only concentrated on one of the angels that spoke while the writer of John talked about the two angles. . .But the writer of Mark does not even mention an angle, he wrote that the women saw a man who told them that Jesus had risen. . .They are NOT the same. . .No matter how the guy tries to wriggle out of it. . .A man and two angles are NOT the same. . .Its reconstruction falls flat and is very ridiculous and dishonest. . .

Point of correction, most scholars say that Matthew referenced Mark not copied Mark

Nope, most scholars agree that Matthew copied Mark not referenced him. . .There is evidence that he copied because the words in Mark are found word for word in Mathew. . .Matthew was copied from Mark and the Q document that scholars talk about

Lol, interesting sneak in the ad hominem "any honest reader who reads this can see...." Interpretation: "If you don't agree with my claim, you are dishonest."
My friend, I don't see the interpolation you are seeing. I only see an author switching from singular to plural in reference to the community he was writing to. What should he have written?

"This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. I know that his testimony is true??"

Firstly, this reading is ridiculous. . .If the writer wants people to know that he wrote it and is attesting to it. . .It will never read like that. . .It will simply read, I am John the disciple of Jesus, I witnessed these things and my report is true. . .Simple. . .

Even if I granted (though I am not) that it was an interpolation added by some mischievous chap and so we removed the problematic later part of that verse. Isn't "This is the disciple who testifies these things and who wrote them down." enough evidence of eyewitness testimony for you? Remember he was writing to a community he is familiar with who would know it was him writing by the things he said of himself. Similar to how one of my friends could choose not to write his name in a letter but refer to himself as "the guy that trashes you in chess". Or do you want him to say "I, Okeke Okafor solemnly swear..." Na court document im dey write? I keep showing you how irrational you are being.

Paul that wrote his name at the beginning of some of his letters, nko?. . .Wasn't he writing to people that already knew him?. . .Firstly the author does NOT describe who he is anywhere. . .No one can know who the author was just from reading the gospel of John. . .So your claim about people knowing him or familiar with him is very false. . .No where does the writer reveal anything about himself in the story. . .He was just writing a story about Jesus. . .Every thing you have stated is your own making. . .Please show how any body can identify the writer or know anything about him just by reading the book of John. . .The whole sentence is an interpolation. . .You keep bringing false analogies. . .When writing an informal letter you must write your name. . .Even if I am sending you and email my name will appear on it to show that its me. . .A friend who trashes you in chess?. . .What is that. . .Who has ever addressed himself that way in reality. . When I was in sec school, I wrote letters to my mum and i ended it by writing my name, its standard procedure every where. . .You keep exposing yourself as a joke. . .If the writer wanted people to know him he would simply state his name. . .After all Paul still stated his name when writing to people that new him, people whom he called them by name in some of his letters. . .You have no point here. . .

Lol, he has done it again, please what are we arguing? the date when the works were written or the date of the earliest surviving copies. Please don't confuse the two.

No one knows when the complete documents were written. . .We do not have the complete writing of Mark any where in the first century. . .No church father quotes Mark any where in the first century. . .The gospels as we have them today are reconstructions. . . .We have fragments here and there and we were later presented with whole books by the church fathers. . .The originals do not exist any where. . No one knows when the originals were written or where they were written. . .

What exactly does that explain? How does it show that John presented a different Christ??

Many scholars believe that the synoptic gospels share the same point of view and are clearly linked. John is not one of them. . .

Please cite the hadiths and Luke and let's do a comparative analysis. Don't just drop words about.

What is this. .Compare the Sahih Al-Bukhari and Luke. . .Both report mythology as far as reality is concerned. . .

Hahaha, Just come out and say it already. The reason you don't believe in the historicity of the NT is only because you don't believe in the resurrection simple. Because the New testament passes your tests in flying colors. You only reject it based on your Naturalistic bias nothing more.

I reject it because, the stories were just made up to create a new religion. . .The new testament does not pass my test at all. . .How can I believe stories based on hear say by people who did not even identify themselves. . .

Wrong.
Koine Greek (Greek Ελληνιστική Κοινή, "common Greek", or κοινή διάλεκτος "the common dialect" is the popular form of Greek which emerged in post-Classical antiquity (c.300 BC – AD 300). Other names are Alexandrian, Hellenistic, Patristic, Common, Biblical or New Testament Greek. Original names were koine, Hellenic, Alexandrian and Macedonian (Macedonic);[1][2] all on the contrast to Attic dialect. Koine was the first common supra-regional dialect in Greece and came to serve as a lingua franca for the eastern Mediterranean and ancient Near East throughout the Roman period. It was also the original language of the New Testament of the Christian Bible and of the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament).[3] Koine is the main ancestor of modern Greek.
http://wiki.phantis.com/index.php/Koine_Greek

OK. . .

Scores you no points. Plus the writer of John's gospel was an eyewitness.

Interpolation says the writer is an eyewitness. . .Writer does not make that claim any where. . .How do you know from the gospel alone that the writes name was John?. . .

Where is the quote you are talking about?

Here's an example for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg-dJA3SnTA

Watch this video Barth Erman cites numerous examples, its very long, but he cites many examples of how some of the quotations of the early church father differ from the manuscripts we have now. . .

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." "the only begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father ..."(Iraneaus quoting John 1:18 in Against Heresies III:11:6),

Some of their quotations are similar many others very different. . examples were given in the video above. . .


I never said that you said that Christ didn't exist. I have also asked you to present the hadiths for comparison

And with this you have shown that you don't know what you are talking about. If you accuse the Church Fathers of conspiracy and deception, you have implied that you know they had malicious motives for their actions. To now turn around and deny knowledge of their motives, you immediately debunk your own theory.

Power was their motive. . .From some of their writings we can see it clearly. . .the early church fathers took the Christian Church from being a proliferation of little localized extended families and made it instead into a worldwide hierarchical religious corporation for personal gain. . . .They wanted people to revere them and exalt them as the church elders. . .Here are some of their quotes. . .

Ignatius - Bishop of Antioch AD 110

To the Ephesians:

"Your REVEREND presbytery is tuned to the Bishop as strings to a lyre...Let us be careful not to resist the Bishop, that through our submission to the Bishop we may belong to God...We should regard the Bishop as the Lord Himself..."

To the Trallians:

"...respect the Bishop as the counterpart of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and the college of the Apostles: without those no church is recognized."

To the Smyrneans:

"Let no-one do anything that pertains to the church apart from the Bishop...it is not permitted to baptize or hold a love-feast independently of the Bishop. But whatever he approves, that is also well pleasing to God."


Clement of Rome, in his epistle to the Corinthian Church in AD 95, wrote:

"The high priest has been given his own special services, the priests have been assigned their own place, and the Levites have their special ministrations enjoined on them. The layman is bound by the ordinances of the laity."

Irenaeus - Bishop of Lyons:

"By knowledge of the truth we mean: the teaching of the Apostles: the order of the church as established from the earliest times throughout the world: the distinctive stamp of the Body of Christ preserved through the episcopal (bishops) succession: for to the Bishops the Apostles committed the care of the church which is in each place, which has come down to our time, safeguarded without any written documents."

Clearly it could be seen from their writings that perpetuating the Jesus story will give them power and make them rule over others. . .

Once again, cite the sources and let us compare

What do you want to compare?. . .The hadith from Abdullah bin Masud reads. . .We were along with God's Messenger at Mina, that moon was split up into two. One of its parts was behind the mountain and the other one was on this side of the mountain. God's Messenger said to us: Bear witness to this 039:6725. . .

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 208:
Narrated by Anas bin Malik
The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain.
He also told me that this is confirmed in the Quran:

"The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two]." 54:1


Mohammed was a real historical figure, so should we believe this because his companions said so?. . .The Jesus story is NO different from the Mohammed story, they are all ancient myths whose events happened only in the pages of story books and not in reality. . .They are fictitious. . .

But in order for them to meet, they must already have a binding purpose which is Christ. This would mean that the gospel of Christ was already known to them beforehand. Do you think people living thousands of miles away from one another simply wake up one morning and decide to form creeds? Your conspiracy theory is failing badly sir.

.........to be continued

Not true. . .The church fathers gave us the gospels. . .They named the gospels, they choose only 4 out of the many other writings based on their personal reasons. . .They formed the church traditions. . .The chose the books that made it to the cannon, they presented us with this books. . .Threw others away and chose others. . .The meet and corresponded with each other regularly. . .They wrote about each other and promoted each other very strongly as well. . .They formed all the creeds. . .So i really do not know what you are talking about. . .

Nigeria is dying because of religion. . .Any thing that man needs to do must be done by man himself. . .No god anywhere has ever helped any nation to develop. . .