₦airaland Forum

^^^^^ My bad, you didn't post the link neither did lalaamed; it was thepathologist, I apologize. However, you cannot be entirely without blame since you immediately supported his misleading post with the following comment:

Brother that's how its is abroad. Laboratory director designation is to the pathologist. Its just different here. The sad thing is that even when we know we are wrong, we just keep fighting for greed, pride of corruption sake. God save us. Blessings

I therefore put it to you; that you either were ignorant of the facts then or were deliberately in collusion with him in the deception, until now.

In any case, and for sake accuracy and fairness, I will proceed to modify my post accordingly and reflect thepathologist as the provider of the link and its deliberate misinterpretation - hope you will now sleep well.

BTW, how is GEJ involved in all this? The court order was for the hospital management to implement the scheme of service as follows:

The court declared that ' by virtue of the provision of the Laws/Acts, Rules, Relevant Circulars issued on different dates) and 'approved 'Schemes of 'Service, members of the Plaintiffs' Association, Medical Laboratory Scientists, are distinct 'professionals and consequently entitled to be accorded due recognition in the employment of the Defendants (particularly at the Federal Medical Centre, Asaba, Delta State).

Such issues (and there are many) are usually below the purview of the office of the president where power and responsibility had already been delegated to the minister, unless of course on matters reaching greater national interest.

Besides, no one is above the law, not even the president; and where there is contempt of court it will be the CMDs who would be in the direct line of fire, because this time they would be the ones in contempt for not implementing the S.O.S. and to be summoned to court, not the minister or the president.
Lets wait and see.

GentleMimi: ...u really are terrible.What hv we lost in this scenerio? After u go dey halla sey person insult u.U no go waka one side,respect urself.
In reality,we fought for what we wanted and got it.DEAL WITH IT!

Oboy, you no dey hear word, I told you before and I am still telling you again; abeg give him rat poison make we rest.

^^^^ Why are you still wasting time, as I told you before, give him rat poison to put him out of his misery.

^^^^ Laugh as much as you want, though its clearly obvious that you have not digested my posts nor the entire thread; because if you did, you would have noticed that I was only debunking the position held by your friend, thepathologist, who was claiming that pathologists exclusively head laboratories in America, he even provided links which on closer examination proved otherwise i.e. other professionals too have the opportunity to head the laboratory (much like you are now also pointing out).

However, I also went further to add that even the Americans (in an ever changing world) are beginning realize the advantage of having DCLSs as heads of lab because they offer more effective and cheaper options to pathologists - therefore, the future in America is for scientists to head the laboratory, while Nigeria is of course already miles ahead.

Somebody must have been paid well to write this novel.

^^^^ You forgot to add, southerners insisted on rotational presidency and geopolitical zoning, thereby distorting the principals of simple democracy, in order to rule by hook or by crook.

They own most of the media, brainwashing their youths into believing their cheap propaganda, its a pity many do not have independent thinking minds.

Dereformer: ^^^ No wonder they lead us like cows.

Check the regime of all fulanis that have led this country; we were not much different from cows during those days.

LOL, maybe that's why you also follow them like cows

Couldn't resist that jibe, OP is just simply being mischievous, though can't help laughing

[quote author=dr_joshua2000]Check for the directors of pathcare and all the prestigious international labs. They are all pathologists. Your argument only ensues in Nigerian teaching hospitals. Browse for the director of pathcare nigeria, or the board of director of clina-lancet, there no single scientist on the board. Those are international labs, you should consider arguing and fighting there.[/quote]Pls address the issue: Who is more suitable to head the Laboratory, the Pathologist or the Scientist; and why?

Stop yapping about a few examples here and there, as if it they are some sort of gold standard; in fact who cares if a few private investors chose to spend their money ignorantly, by placing somebody who is less trained and less involved in actual laboratory work to head their laboratories - its their choice.

However, sooner or later they too (private investors) will eventually realize their folly and put the rightful person, the scientist in charge - it is already happening in America with DCLS and here with us in Nigeria; truth be told, pathologists are fast emerging as mere appendages not core components of the lab.

I therefore foresee in future, even their present narrow limited roles in the laboratory being taken over by a new crop of scientists, additionally trained and licensed in surgical collection of some specimen e.g. simple biopsy, fna etc.; while pathologists continuing in their more traditional relevant role of performing autopsies, teaching and advising other doctors on appropriate test requesting and interpretation towards effective patient management.

As at now in Nigeria, with the recent court judgement, the Scientist has effectively been given full ownership of the Laboratory - while the Pathologist can be his guest or tenant, if he chooses because the tables have finally turned.

^^^^Exactly, he keeps rambling on about a few examples where doctors head the laboratory in the private sector, as if it is some sort of gold standard.
Well I've got news for him, doctorate holders in laboratory science DCLS are on the way and would soon edge them out from there high horses to claim their rightful place as the legitimate heads of laboratory - because they are the ones fully trained and know the laboratory from top to bottom, its no wonder the pathologists are now all jittery and worried in view they know that their days of being parasitic to scientists will soon be over.

naijaking1: Ignorance is bliss.
And for the record, I was part of the amlss that started the scientist vs technologist nonsense in 80s. I look back at the Grand ignorance someone sold young and susceptible minds.
If you call yourself a scientist for collecting blood, centrifuging it, placing the serum inside multichannel analyzers day in day out, what do you call the person who designed and developed the test protocol?
Oh I forgot that you said that they are not properly trained.
Looking back now again, I blame the early uk trained pathologist for being too courteous and respectful. Here in US techs who think they have what it takes are busy proving themselves everyday. Clinical conferences, state audits, blind samples every month, qc, are enough to keep him focused on his area of expertise, he has no time to get bored, lie to newer students and d repeat lies so many fimes that he now believes it be true.

My friend, if you cannot address the issue I raised with valid points; then you should really consider doing the needful and therefore take rat poison to end your misery - because MLS have gained their freedom and there is nothing you can do about it.

I see, so you are not only being evasive but have now resorted to false claims.
Pls explain how in hell does the job description of pathologists also include the design and development of the test protocol? Pls tell us your actual job description so we can appreciate how you are being involved in designing and developing the testing protocols in your lab.

Yes, I said it before and will say it again: Pathologists are less equipped to head the laboratory in terms of the duration of their training on laboratory and their involvement in actual laboratory work; because it the MLS who is longer trained and purely trained on the laboratory and therefore knows the laboratory better, from top to bottom, and should rightfully head the laboratory.

The pathologist's role in the laboratory is essentially narrow and limited e.g. collecting biopsy specimen, reading histological slides; most often he simply interprets results produced by the laboratory (i.e. scientist) explains it and advises other doctors
managing the patient based on it; in addition, he also performs autopsies.

That was why I made the analogy with the kitchen, where there is the chef (the scientist) who prepares and cooks the food and the gourmet (the pathologist) who simply enjoys tasting and recommending it to others.
I therefore ask, who should head the kitchen; the chef or the food taster?

BTW, who the hell cares whether you were once a technologist and how does that change the situation or corroborate your claims.

Modified

Sensible guy, better that than armed robbery or kidnapping.

^^^ Abeg pass him rat poison so that he can do the needful

@ naijaking1:
No I am not joking, therefore pls make your point, contradict what I said before going ahead to do the needful.

naijaking1: You can't become a doctor through the back door, bro.
If you trained in UNTH, UCH, Calaber, or Vom, you'll know your dear MLT or MLS jobs are winding down, so fast and so rapid that there is no need sitting around, making noises, and pretending to be what you were never trained for one day!

When doctor device these tests, perfect, and win Noble prizes then they teach technicians how to perform it, and in many cases help you interpret it. What don't you understand about it From Louis Pastuer in bacteriology, to Erlich in Chemistry, to Charles Drew in Blood bank, and now to Watson in DNA analysis---->all were doctors. And you going to sit there and claim that doctors are not well trained ---to run the tests they designed and perfected--only in Nigeria!

In Nigeria, nobody is asking about automating the the system better, everybody wants more money, respect, larger offices. I once told a friend of mine at UCH that the hematology analyzer(coulter counter) was an older version, he stated that they(scientists) fought so hard to prevent a faster, more reliable, and larger capacity unit from being installed. Another class mate at UNTH labs even said they had purposely destroyed similar machines in the past.

You guys can sit at your NAMLSS conferences and misdirect yourselves about how doctors are killing you, but it's the wrong fight.
Here in the US, the technologist as they proudly like to be called is perfecting his skills with computer and other machines that they are making themselves indispensible. You guys forget that at the end of the day, everything will be based on market forces, not how loud you are, or what an uninformed judge said.
I wish I can teach one or two of you loud mouth a few lessons in reality.

Why can't you get it that scientists don't want to be doctors, they are not the ones doing the encroachment because they are quite contented within the confines of their profession and to develop it further; on the other hand you may represent one of the rarest few who may have got there through the back door - and it shows.

The scope and job opportunities for scientists is in fact increasing rather than the other way round, as modern medicine becomes increasingly more reliant on the laboratory.
Research findings, depending on what you read (the figures vary from 60% to as high as 80%) all agree that patient management is greatly dependent on laboratory findings - however, its is becoming obvious that you may be one of those still bogged down in archaic medicine and not moving with the times.

Contrary to what you claimed, automation is steadily taking root in Nigerian laboratories; though it has its merits and demerits in terms of accuracy and precision on the one hand, and higher operational costs and service delivery charges to the patient on the other.
It must also not be forgotten that it is fundamentally and essentially a labor saving system, not necessarily an automatic statement of progress and advancement - as there can be conditions where a manual method may be more practical and preferred to an automated one.

Yes you are definitely behind times; FYI the CLS profession has long been established and running in parallel with the technologist cadre in the USA, they are graded slightly differently and accordingly practitioners receive different salaries.
In Nigeria, we have moved one step ahead by upgrading and superseding the technologist cadre with the Scientist cadre, please be properly informed.

@ OP:
So Buhari is not entitled to express an opinion if his is contrary to yours and that of the original author of the article which you copied and pasted.

First of all, he is one of the leaders of the opposition and therefore his job to criticize the govt, thats what all oppositions do and are expected to do worldwide.

Secondly, he is also not the only one to hold the same view; prominent respectable Christians like Bishop Kuka and Rev.Jesse Jackson had also held and expressed similar views.

https://www.nairaland.com/1242228/bishop-kukah-calls-amnesty-boko
https://www.nairaland.com/1295717/jesse-jackson-backs-amnesty-boko-haram

Yes, oga Johnny set up a committee but did he allow the committee to even begin to do its work before he declared a state of emergency in those 3 states (the committee just handed its report last week) - answer, NO!

You asked,"what is the cause of Boko Haram. What are they fighting for?" Well, this is what the New York Times had to say:

Boko Haram began in 2002 as a peaceful Islamic splinter group. Then politicians began exploiting it for electoral purposes. But it was not until 2009 that Boko Haram turned to violence, especially after its leader, a young Muslim cleric named Mohammed Yusuf, was killed while in police custody. Video footage of Mr. Yusuf’s interrogation soon went viral, but no one was tried and punished for the crime. Seeking revenge, Boko Haram targeted the police, the military and local politicians — all of them Muslims.

The same New York Times added the following - note the position of the American Ambassador:

[i]It was clear in 2009, as it is now, that the root cause of violence and anger in both the north and south of Nigeria is endemic poverty and hopelessness. Influential Nigerians from Maiduguri, where Boko Haram is centered, pleaded with Mr. Jonathan’s government in June and July not to respond to Boko Haram with force alone. Likewise, the American ambassador, Terence P. McCulley, has emphasized, both privately and publicly, that the government must address socio-economic deprivation, which is most severe in the north. No one seems to be listening.[/i]

https://www.nairaland.com/1243243/us-boko-haram-franchise-hired

Now you can go ahead and castigate Bishop Kuka, Rev ackson, The American Ambassador and New York Times for being tribalistic as you are accusing Gen. Buhari in a thinly veiled attempt to score cheap political points on behalf of your benevolent paying masters.

BTW, how has military might so far succeeded in elimination boko haram? Where has the use of force alone overcome terrorism? - ask the Americans about their success in the Middle East and Asia.

Why not as well go the whole hog and say Johnathan brought internet to Nigeria like the minister for information Labaran Maku who claimed it was oga who brought Facebook to the country.

^^^^ Don't mind him, they only interpret results to their colleagues and evidently doing a bad job at it while attracting expensive salaries; hence the American search for cheaper and more effective alternative in the form of DCLS.

^^^^ I want to it put to you that the pathologist is less equipped to head the laboratory because he is hardly involved in the laboratory process; how can a food taster not involved in cooking the food head the kitchen over and above the chef?

FYI, Nigeria has adopted ISO 15189, its an international standard for laboratory management, Google its requirement and tell me how pathologists are knowledgeable and trained on it to lead and deliver its objectives?

Pathologists add only about 6mnths - 1yr post grad diploma training on laboratory and start making shakara as if they know the lab from top to bottom.

^^^^^My friend stop making false claims, where in the links you provided did the requirements (1 - 6) categorically state that the position was the exclusive preserve of pathologists alone and no other professionals were eligible?

You need to digest what you quote before rushing to argue in ignorance - and I want to know how many American laws and standards are applicable to Nigeria?

For the sake of argument, assuming that were true, are you suggesting that Nigeria as an independent state must blindly follow the Americans without recourse to its own peculiarities and limitations?

Even the Americans have come to realize the advantage of elevating the the Clinical Laboratory Scientist (their equivalent of MLS) to high echelons of other healthcare providers by introducing the Doctorate of Clinical Lab Sciences as a cheaper and better alternative to the Clinical Physicians (Pathologist) - BTW, the American CLS are also having the same problems MLS in Nigeria are having with pathologists (you will observe from the comments following the article); fortunately their Nigerian counterparts have already succeeded in being well ahead of them - though they too are on course to take over from their oppressors.

Pls answer this question honestly, why should a pathologist with limited training and experience in laboratory science compared to the scientist who had exclusively and entirely been trained for a longer time in the laboratory, be more suitable to head the laboratory?

@ OP:

Pls put picture of the plant, leaf and seeds to facilitate identification for those who may have never seen it before.

@ OP:
Though your sarcasm is quite obvious, many may not be gifted enough to appreciate it.

An article in the Leadership newspaper - 'Why Johnathan Is Guaranteed To Fail' says it all.

http://leadership.ng/news/111113/why-jonathan-guaranteed-fail

^^^^ The Muslim world would not allow a Saudi collapse; though I agree its alliance based on oil security with the Americans is currently weak, and even more weakened in view of recent discovery of huge oil reserves in Australia and Gulf of Mexico, well in excess of the Saudi reserve.
Soon oil will become more readily available and also very very cheap and therefore the Saudi influence based on its oil trump card a thing of the past.

oyb: persistently proving his critics right

https://www.africanspotlight.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Picture-717.png

And some ppl are blaming El-Rufai for cartooning this daft man .SMH.

The Saudis are crying over spilled milk, the game had been up a long time ago with regards to emergence of Iran as a dominant force in the Middle East.

The Americans have long reconciled with the realities of Iran being a Nuclear power because (like in the case of North Korea) they realized it was too late, Iran had already reached the point of no return with its development and that there was nothing they can do to prevent them.

What we are seeing is international politics of no permanent friends or permanent enemies but permanent interest. The Americans are only going through the motion of harassing the Iranians through the UN but in reality only trying to save face and to befriend Iran, since that country is no longer a push over (i.e. if you can't beat then join them so to speak).

Ghaddafi was foolish to have fessed up and gave up his nuclear weapons - see where that took him.

The Saudis can presently only make tantrums while their options are limited, the alleged German alliance will change little, though they are trying to jostle the Americans out of warming up to Iran by threatening to buy nuclear weapons from Pakistan in order to counter the threat from Iran - how that would pan out is something we'll have to wait and see.

abu12: Sai Rabiu musa Kwankwoso

Sai Amana

Sai Kano

ha ha ha ha ! You can say that again

GentleMimi: *wat iz diz wan sayin?*

He is trying to convince you that he was once a technologist as earlier mentioned; however, his comments - a few slips here and there - suggests otherwise, even his other claim seems doubtful to me; at best he comes across as one of those (doctors) suffering from 'forced knowledge syndrome' i.e. a person not naturally gifted in something but forces himself to learn, mostly by cramming (memorizing) in order to pass exams; eventually he qualifies (on paper only) but lacking in real substance of the truly qualified, so he goes about always trying to over compensate whenever he engages others - like in this forum.

thepathologist: we need copy of judgement not extract. Pathology and med lab science are distinct profession. having department of med lab science is not a big deal. med lab sci cannot head pathology departments viz morbid anatomy,chem path etc but can head department of med lab science. no problem. this nic ruling shows that a med lab sci cannot be pathologist . what does pathologist dies?

www.work.chron.com/job-description-pathologists-16583.html

who regulates clinical laboratory practice of pathologists in nigeria?


www.mdcnigeria.org/

who regulates med lab practice of med lab sc?

mlscn

so both pathologists and med lab sc work in lab but diff job description?

in the end diff deparnents the same labs.

I think the answers to your questions are already there and clearly stated in the enabling laws of the regulatory bodies of the two professions, MDCN (doctors) and MLSCN (lab scientists) and in the current judgement by the court.

I have tried to access the links you provided for relevant information in order to appreciate your position but without success.

However, it should be obvious that accordingly if the professions are distinct and the scientists entitled to their department with their own structure and hierarchy then how could it still be possible for pathologists to continue assuming the headship of laboratories?
Obviously, what now has to follow is for pathologists to vacate their seats as administrative heads of the various lab specialties (chem pathology, haematology, micro/bacteriology, BGS etc) for relevant appointed directors/deputy directors of med lab services to rightfully assume as heads, in accordance with govt's scheme of service.

Pathologists may therefore wish to regroup themselves in their own department of morbid anatomy.

BTW, I don't see how the two can end up sharing the same lab (perhaps histopathology), since pathologists are not primarily involved in bench work i.e. actually carrying the laboratory tests but more with the interpretation of test results and advising other doctors on the patient's management.
However, I do concede that there may be a small overlap involving e.g. administration of drugs etc, particularly in invivo dynamic tests that may arguably be construed as purely medical/surgical procedures (I presume this may be what you were referring to as clinical laboratory practice); though I believe this can easily be sorted out based on re-examining of the laws as well as on physical redesigning of the lab, but only in this regard, which in any case constitutes a very small fraction of all laboratory investigations carried out in hospitals.

Finally, it is quite untrue that med lab scientists want to become pathologists but quite the other way round where pathologists want to be both.

Came across this thread pertaining to recent statements made by the president of the NMA and was so infuriated by the sheer arrogance of the man and his colleagues, sufficiently enough to be motivated to open my own very first thread (out of my normal character) in solidarity with a brother who is a Medical Laboratory Scientist, suffering under the ongoing healthcare politics of the overbearing dominance of medical doctors over other health professionals.

https://www.nairaland.com/1511157/pharmacists-nurses-others-should-stop

Hope the success of this brave few professionals would give courage and encouragement to others to also try to free themselves form suppression and oppression.

Court Declares Medical Laboratory Science A Distinct Profession In Nigeria-Frees Her From The Clutches Of Pathologists

Medical Laboratory Scientists Gets Freedom From Pathologists In Nigeria

The court case between Medical Laboratory Scientists And Pathologists has been declared in favour of
the Former.
Justice Esowe of the National Industrial Court In Nigeria declared that Medical Laboratory Science is a distinct profession which has the right to relate with other professions to achieve organizational goals.
This landmark judgement was delivered on Monday 23rd October in a case between Mr. 'Tony Asiodu, Ben. Ajufo, Association of Medical Laboratory Scientists of Nigeria, Medical Laboratory Council Of Nigeria and the Management of the Federal Medical Centre, Asaba Delta State, Medical And Dental Council of Nigeria and the Attorney General of the Federation.

The court declared that ' by virtue of the provision of the Laws/Acts, Rules, Relevant Circulars. 9Issued on different dates) and 'approved 'Schemes of 'Service, members of the Plaintiffs' Association, Medical Laboratory Scientists, are distinct 'professionals and consequently entitiled to be accorded due recognition in the employment of the Defendants (particularly at the Federal Medical Centre, Asaba, Delta State).

Court Directs Hospital Management To Implement Scheme Of Service For Medical Lab. Scientists
The management of the Federal Medical Centre, Asaba, Delta State has been
directed to implement all provisions of the schemes of service for medical laboratory scientists.
This pronouncement was made by Justice Esowe of the National Industrial Court
Abuja, Nigeria in a suit filled by the Association of Medical Laboratory Scientists.
The sixteen page judgement ordered Inter Alia that the defendants to 'immediately recognize the existing Medical Laboratory Services department and Federal Government Approved Scheme of Service and put it into full operation for all members of the Plaintiffs' Association in accordance with the extant
laws/Acts, Rules, Circulars and Scheme of Service aforementioned and for all
administrative purposes at the Federal Medical Centre Asaba,.'


'It Is A Misnomer To Create A Directorate Without A System To Support It' -Justice Esowe
Justice of the National Industrial Court, Abuja, Justice Esowe has said that it will be a great
misnomer not to create a directorate system for medical laboratory scientists
after recognizing the office of a director.
In his judgement, he said, 'In view of the above provisions of the Federal Civil Service Rules, it is reasonable to infer that the scheme of service for the claimants recognized the creation of a separate
department of them. It will be a great misnomer to recognize the office
of a director a directorate system without a department to back it up. I therefore hold hat the contents of the claimants' scheme of service clearly envisaged the creation and recognition of a separate department for members of the claimants as a distinct professional group'.

Jobs Of Medical Laboratory Scientists Doesn't Conflict With Those Of Pathologists'-NIC
The National Industrial Court Abuja has declared that the jobs of medical
laboratory scientists doesn't conflict with those of pathologists.
In the judgement, the erudite judge says 'I hold that, based on the evidence before me, there is no conflict whatsoever between the claimants' job schedules and that of the 5th and 6th defendants. The above position is reinforced by the fact that their trainings, professional qualifications and schemes of service are different from each other.'. This he enthusiastically declared on page 15 of the document.

Court Says Medical Laboratory Scientists Are Legally Entitled To Own Department
In a recent court judgement by the National Industrial Court, medical laboratory
scientists has been declared entitled to have their own department.
The judgement on page 16, item 2 reads' A declaration that by virtue of the provisions
of the Laws'/Acts, Rules, Relevant Circulars issued on different 'dates' and approved scheme
of Service, members of the Plaintiffs' Association are legally entitled to
operate/work under a separate department in the employment of the defendants.'

http://allmedlabnewsupdate..com/2013/11/court-declares-medical-laboratory_6937.html

naijaking1: Scientist Do you mean to say a medical lab technologist?
What is the basis for comparing a pathologist with any one of his numerous subordinates like a technologist?
People like you really need a little bit more education, because a pathologist, just like other consultants is trained to put everything together: X-ray, lab results, pathology slide, pharmaceuticals, clinical presentation, social welfare, nursing, operating room, etc, etc. for the best interest of the patient.
Low quality of medical practice in Nigeria is not because of the doctor and other ancilliary staff are not equal, but because the unstable political atmosphere in Nigeria has adversly affected every major profession from medicine, to law, to accounting, and engineering.
How can a lab tech who has no training in radiology, nutrition, or pharmacy argue with someone who does?
I tell staff like you to shut up, until I need to hear from you.

I am sorry, you seem to be living in the past because currently there is no professional cadre in Nigeria known as medical laboratory Technologist but Medical Laboratory Scientist which replaced and superseded the former by an act of law (Act 11 of 2003) over 10 yrs ago.

Moreover quite recently, the said professionals successfully freed themselves from the overbearing attitude and clasp of the pathologists who with the collusion of their medical associations were intruding into the scientist's profession. They were freed in a landmark court judgement, at the National Industrial Court on 23rd October 2013.

http://allmedlabnewsupdate..com/2013/11/court-declares-medical-laboratory_6937.html

Pathologists may well be advised to reign in their egos because accordingly scientists are by no means their supposed subordinates but a separate profession entitled to full recognition and their own department in relevant health institutions.

Therefore you and your colleagues may wish to go and look for other professionals to bully, because definitely Medical Laboratory Scientists are no longer within reach of your tyrannical clutches and certainly never destined to be your boys whether your like it or not.

BTW, I happen to have a brother who had suffered under the system, I therefore know and sympathize with him and his colleagues.

So Oga at the top na Zoology him read, hhhmmnn, no wonder he is treating us like animals.

^^^^ Exactly, word has it that they just escaped from the southern jungles of Nigeria and one of their representatives is here on the internet spewing rubbish - shocking isn't it?