₦airaland Forum

ladionline: Let me try.

The name Awori is derived from the consciousness of the indigenous people to tell a tale of their inception. who named the country as such? The name predate Awori people for the simple fact that it says 'AWO' (seer) 'RI' (discovery). As a variant, Awori is noun form of IWORI, which can also be reduced to IWO (focus) ORI (seer, discoverer).

As to being venerated, the closest to this point was when Oba Akintoye was to worship at Oduduwa temple, but then crisis broke out. I think Crowther, who wanted to proof Yoruba 'monotheism' and 'civilization' adopted Ado as spiritual heartland of the Yorubas.

The Yoruba do not truly look to one another as to origin in his time, if not he (Crowther) would have been the first to set that in records, but he was not aware of such needs and he has nothing to gain even when he adopt Ado for monotheism, because he may not be conversant with other places invoking Oduduwa at the said time if there is any. Oduduwa has other names with most Yoruba entities.

The circumstance of all slaves is such that it stimulates the question of self probity. The man was an ex slave. Crowther must have thought about the question of Yoruba origin, his silence on it is not a true indicator for the contemporaneous mindset. He was familiar with a society that practices traditional faith in which followers kneel and bow to Orisha; as well Islam faith in which five times a day the followers kneel and bow to God. This was the Yoruba society of his time. Im sure a Theologian, as he was, would want to know what connects the two.

Crowther was preaching Adam and his genealogies to the Yorubas who already were familiar and venerate Ado and Adimu.

So who is Ado, who is Adimu and who is Adam?

ladionline: The word Ogboni (also given as Agboni in egun) stands for 'Agba' in Awori tongue. But as 'Arugbo' in mainstream Yoruba. this reminds of ido-agba or alagbaa (eegun) in Yoruba. Kindly observe this linear lingual progression: OGBO-NI(eni ogbo ni: an aged person)=IGBONI=A-RUGBO-NI=A-GBO-NI=OLU-GBO-NI=OWA-NI=OLU-WA-NI=IGBO-NA-NI. OGBONA(pathfinder)ni.

The ancestral Ogboni were old seekers or veterans from all walks of life, selected on a mandate to seek a promised-land (obatala group). But the youthful Owa got to Yorubaland first (ikorodu). Hence the saying 'omode gbon agba gbon...' The common denominator is igbo, igbon or owa, meaning the quest. The linguistic implication of this is simple: the quest begot Ado. The twosome quest (eji-gbo) begot the settlers.

Thats new knowledge for me. Tell me, what is the relevance of Ikorodu in reference to Ado?

It is true that the record and knowledge of Ifa existed simultaneously in other cultures beyond Yorubaland.

Look at the image, another version of Ifa's 16 signatures. This is called Khatt ar Raml in Islam..sand divination. Its used in Islam.

Still on Ado, there's a deeper linkage between Ado, Ifa and these places named after him.

When we hear St Fransiscan Abbot, a picture comes to mind. When we hear Sabo, an image comes to mind. When we hear marina, an image comes to mind. What image does the name Ado conjure up in the mind of Yoruba?

If that image is settlement as you have done very well explaining, then settlement of who? Why Ado, and not Sabo or Sango or Ile ?

There is something sacred about Ado the person that called for certain sacred places to be named Ado. Could it be the Ogboni templars?

Of course, I understand.

I have more questions on the person of this Ado, his connection to Ifa; and indeed to ascertain if Ado placename is a distribution of Ifa knowledge. In other words, the dispersals and settlement of the knowledge and adherents of the school of Ifa principles. In this case Ado being a messenger or prophet and wherever his scholars settle with his knowledge we name it Ado.

I dont know, just a thought..

Lol. I am patronizing you now because you have background information on an aspect of the culture that I need to tie some knots.

Let us say Awori, as an independent nation, is the source and origin of Ado. Then I will ask you to define or connect the application of Ado, beside being a place name, with customs and rituals in which Ado is venerated in Awori belief system.

Can you do that?

ladionline: Ado as a place name derived primarily from an obscure source or link to historical Ado, that is meant to be a mystery that history would furnish meaning or findings to.

Yes, as a place name with wide distribution, Ado is a mystery and I agree that there is a historical context in that. Ado as a name is not a mystery and can be explained through its presence and praise in Ifa.

However, Ado is mainly settled by people known generally as Awori. then new flux of people had came from neighbouring Yewa, Dahomey and so on in the last century.

Ado is subdivided into various realms that are called Ido, meaning camps or tents or makeshift station. There is Ido-agba, Ido-luwo, Ido-siki, Ido-numi, Ido-lehin, Ido-saba, Ido-jigan, Ijigbe, Abio, Ido-fe, Iga-Solo, Isanyin, Isoko, Ileba, Ilaje, Itako, Ido-Baarun, Idi-oniporogun, itire, idi-Ota and so on.

What Im getting then is that Ado is "settlement" in Yoruba tongue. Awori, emigrating from Ife, settled the coasts and planted Ado. This will be the equivalent of a modern sovereingty planting its flag as first political unit to set foot on an unclaimed terrain, like Antarctica or moon, so to speak. Am I correct?

Is Ado and Ido interchangeable and can place names like Edo and Idu be extensions of Ado and Ido?

Can we say the Ado of Awori, the Ado of Ekiti, the Edo of Bini, the several Ido places and several Idu places are all one standard bearer (flag) for "settlement"?

My fascination is the fact that Ado has some few ones that resonates at other places. For instance, Idobaarun is resonated as Orun Oba Ado at Ile Ife. Idobarun is "Ido Oba Orun" meaning the camp of the heavenly king. Whereas, At Ife, you have heavenly king Ado. What this make me think is simple, there is an unbilical cord, and it is Ado here, but their is Orun in the mix, which point to the source of the ancestors. Moreso, it is said in tradition

[i]Ifa dakun masun nile Ado, Oyeku, dakun masun lotu Ife. [/i]The tradition is built on one single person, Ifa, aka Oyeku.

Well, there are two Oba Ado. The progenitor Oba Ado in Ife and the Bini Oba Ado that settled in Eko. I know that Bini Ado is named after Ife progenitor and Orun Oba Ado is the sacred resting place of Ife dynastic kings.

One thing about Ado, whether as a place name or person name, is it has linkage with Ile-Ife and Ifa.

Who was this progenitor in Ile Ife that was named Ado, is he same one mentioned in Ifa?

Adonai and Adonis had no direct connection with my question.

Im trying to collect place names and trace their geographical/cultural connectiin.

I am member of a discussion group that meets once a month to deliberate on culture and mysteries. I told you a while back I dont know Ifa corpus, so I depend on others to explain it. In our last discussion the mystery of using rat and fish for sacrifice was revealed. In the discussion Ado Ekiti also came up and I remembered your frequent talk about Ado, so I want to know.

It seems Ado is a common name in Yoruba cities, particularly East Yoruba. Share more on Ado as a placename and a settlement.

.

Hello bros,

You mention Ado quite frequently. Can you please share more on this place name?

Start by telling what Ado is.

Thanks.

Oduyoye's article above was obtained from Yemitom.

http://yemitom./2012/05/05/on-modupe-oduyoyes-review-of-genesis/

Oduyoye had first informed his cleric students that. Hebrew, the original language of the Old Testament texts and other Semitic languages like Aramaic, Akkadian, MEgyptian, Ugarithic etc all belong to the same Afro-Asiatic (Hamito Semitic) language group as many Africa languages like Hausa, Efik, Ibiobio, Yoruba, Igbo Fulfide, Twi, Fon etc. Thus, in seeking explanations to passages of Genesis 1- 11, Oduyoye drew from these languages.Having equipped himself with considerable acquaintance with many African languages, Oduyoye stood, as it were, at a vantage point where he has an unusually panoramic view of the innards of these languages. The substance of this Bible studies, Oduyoye later compiled in a book with the title: “The Sons of the Gods and the Daughters of Men.”On the whole, the 132- page book, published in 1984 by Orbis Books, Maryknoll, New York, impresses upon the reader that Genesis 1 – 11 contains a lot of folk or popular etymology as “tall stories for popular consumption” which are told not for their basis in fact but by way of the lay man’s attempt to explain things that are obscure to him.

Oduyoye had dealt at length with the problem of folk etymology in Yoruba Religious Discourse. In it, he cited the drum signal used then to reproduce the intonation pattern of the English statement: “This is the Nigerian Broadcasting Service.” Which some Yoruba folk erroneously interprete as“Ninu Ikoko dudu la ti n se’be. It is inside a black pot that we cook stew”He then cites such popular etymology in the Book of Genesis:“that Eve was so named because she was the mother of all life; that Isaac was so named because he grabbed his twin brother by the heels while they were still in the womb; that Cain was so named because the mother said at birth” I have acquired a man with the help of God”… that Marah was so named because there Israelites found the water bitter”“Babel” for instance, which according to the Bible, was derived from the fact that it is where God confused the tongue of men..First, Oduyoye dismissed the claim that the whole world had one language by reminding us that earlier in Gen 10 we had been told that the son of Yaphet, Ham and Shem had been classified according to their different tongues.

Confused in Hebrew is “balal”. But the Genesis writers are saying that “Babel” (b-b-l) is derived from Balal (b-l-l).Oduyoye says “no”. “The (writer of Genesis)  is basing etymology on a single leg of sound similarity without any consideration for the other leg of meaning similarity. Hebrew “balal” means “mingle” mix, confuse, confound cognate therefore with Chichewa ideophone “balala-balala” scatter, disperse.“Here, etymology has two legs to stand upon. Phonology and semantics. But what does Babel” mean? “Babel is Hebrew. It is the name of the Babylonian capital whose only gate was memorably designed with religious motiffs. It came to be known by the Babylonians as baab ilu the gate of God.’ Babel could therefore not be so called because Yahweh balal the speech of all the earth.” Oduyoye then goes blunt:

“The etymology of Genesis 1-11 are based on fancy, not fact. They serve the purpose of mythology, not that of linguistics or philology.

As far as the Genesis writers were concerned, a word in a strange language must connote something similar in a similar- sounding word in Hebrew. The semantic tour de force produces a good story, and in mythology, the story is the end.

”Oduyoye also drew attention to how Genesis writers borrowed generously form polytheistic mythology, but then superimposed their own brand of “monotheistic theology” on it. Genesis 2:4 for instance talks of the towledot (genealogy) of the heavens and the earth.A genealogy gives the list of children just like in the genealogy Shem. But the Genesis writers, Oduyoye says, don’t want to hear talk of “sons and daughters” born of heaven and earth, which inevitably implies procreation . Instead they introduced YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah) as a solo creator. “To introduce YHWH ‘eloh-iym into an ancient mythology in which the male heaven and the female earth were procreative agents—- persons or spirit or gods—- is to turn mythology into (Hebrew) theology,”Oduyoye comments.Other glimpses of mythology shows  in statements like that in Gen 6: that ‘the sons of the gods (heaven) married the daughters of men (earth) and gave birth to gibbor-iym (powerful ones).In essence, what Genesis writers did is to rewrite mythology to suit their own religious (theological) purpose—- which is to push Yahweh as the sole creator who moulds (forms).Another major record in the Bible which gives away this doctoring of ancient mythology is the very first sentence in the Bible. In the original Hebrew Bible, it reads:“In the beginning eloh-iym (the gods) created the heavens and the earth. “Why,” Oduyoye asks does the Hebrew language have a word with a plural suffix (-iym) as its word for ‘God’ When Hebrew religion is anti-polytheistic?”In repainting the existing picture of the polytheistic mythology of the time the Genesis writers left many patches of the old paint. And in several cases, the old paint shows from underneath the new.

Later translators of the Hebrew into Greek had to grapple with this tell-tale ambiguities. And in their efforts, they messed up many translations.For instance, though Hebrews/Judaists insist that Yahweh is the only God, they left words like ­Ben-ey ha-eloh-iym (sons of the gods) in places like Genesis 6. Where do these fit in Hebrew theology? Who are the gods and who are their sons?Oduyoye however tells us that such “sons of the gods” are not unknown in African tradition. He quotes Joshua N. Kudajie. Aspects of Religion and Morality in Ghanaian Traditional Society with particular reference to the Ga Adangme.”:“The sons and daughters of Naa Nyamo (Ga “Father God”) are known to us as jemawoji ‘the gods of the world’. They are powerful and intelligent beings who walk about the world, but they have their own abodes in the seas, Lagoons, mountains and other natural objects. Having been delegated by Naa nyamo to be his vicegerents, they are in active contact with the world of nature in man.”Oduyoye now compares this extract with Job 1:6:“Now there was a day when ben-ey ha elo-iym(sons of the lords) came to present themselves before YHWH and Satan also came among them…..”Oduyoye then draws the inference that ben-ey ha eloh-iym are” divine beings like Satan (Ngas go sot ‘the people of knowledge and power’) “We can not escape the answer that ben-ey ha eloh-iym in Gen 6 refers so to the same divine beings whom the Ga of Ghana know as jemawoji, whom the Akan of Ghana know as abosom….

”Then he adds: “The two examples of divine beings named in genesis and Job (Nimrod and Satan) are reflected in West Africa.as Yoruba Lamurudu, a legendary hero andas Ngas go sot “persons of knowledge and power.” In Yoruba these would be the Orisa.So, how do translators of Hebrew Genesis to Greek cope with these mythological beings?Badly: They gave different translations to the same words.Hear oduyoye “The Septuagint (bible) renders ben-ey ha eloh-iym into Greek as hoi angeloitou theou “messengers of God” in Job 1:6 but as hoi huioi tou theou “the sons of God” in Gen. 6:2….”A freak word which never existed in English was also introduced: “angel”.“Those who know the ordinary meaning of Greek angeloi know that it means only “messengers” just as Hebrew male’ak-iym means ‘messengers” ordinarily.“But when mythical thinking enters into it, Greek angeloi and Hebrew male’alk-iym are rendered into English as angels… the Jews who translated the Hebrew Bible (old Testament) into Greek in Alexandria avoided the mythology of ben-ey ha eloh-iym in Gen.6:1 and Job 1:6 but gave us another myth —- that of angels…

”Perhaps some of Oduyoye’s most sensitive remarks are on what he calls “anti-Hamitism” — hatred for the descendants of Ham and Canaanites in the Genesis accounts. Why rain curses on Canaan when it was Ham who by accident saw his drunken father’s (Noah) unclothedness? Oduyoye asks.Many Bible readers will gloss over this anomaly or rationalize it. But not Oduyoye. It is a ploy to justify the annihilation of theCanaanites, he says:“The truth is that the story is one of many told by the Hebrews to ridicule nations against whom they harbor a grudge.”Four of such nations, he says are

*Egypt because of what one of its Pharaohs did to the ancestors of the Jews:

*Canaan who the Jews considered “Idolaters” and therefore could be annihilated in the name of Yahweh

*Moab whom the Hebrews say were born from an incestuous relationship between Lot and his two daughters;

*Babel whom the Jews considered too ambitious and therefore sees the ruins of its imposing ziggurats as punishment from Heaven.

Earlier, Odoyoye had also dealt with another personalty whom he said the Hebrew writers tried to run down because of his greatness: Nimrod, a blackman (Kushite) whom, quoting Genesis, oduyoye described as one of the gibbor-iym (Yoruba al-agbara) cited in Genesis as the ‘first on Earth to be a mighty man.”Nimrod, according to Oduyoye is actually Yoruba Lamurudu (N-m-d / l-m-d) and he was the first empire builder whose kingdom spread from Babylon ot Nineveh.“Given this anterior greatness of the Kushite Nimrod, the first gibbor, the writers of Genesis did with Nimrod what they did with Nebuchadnezzar: For no reason other than his greatness, they stated that Nimrod’s greatness was offensive to God (Yahweh).”Then he adds; “The fact is that the jews had never been great (except during the empire of David and Solomon). On the contrary, they had suffered from great nations many of these included in the kingdom/empire of Nimrod. Babylonians… Assyrians.

”Oduyoye return again and again to this issue of racism shown by the Jews in their records. On page 100, he declares: “It is the business of blacks to expose the inherent anti-Hamitism, which resulted in the paradigmatic extermination of the Canaanites by those who,when the tide is turned, have been complaining of anti-Semitism.”Then Oduyoye zeroes in on the Nigerian situation: “We are asked not to believe that the Abore have any relationship with the ‘iber-iym, and yet what the Iber-iym did to the Canaanites in the name of Yahweh the Abore have done to the sons of Kush from Sokoto to Ilorin in the name of Allah.”Citing the –b-r consonantal root among other evidence, Oduyoye had told us in the opening of Chapter 7 (page 63) that the Hebrew and Fulani (Bororo) have a common origin: “Eber is the name of the ancestors of the ben-ey Eber “sons of Eber.” These were, in the Bible, the ‘iber-iym ‘the Hebrews.“Eber, the name of their ancestor is comparable to the name by which the wandering Fulani of West Africa are known: Abore in Nigeria (Borno) and in Chad, Bororo in Nigeria (Adamawa… Their language is called ful-ful-de in Nigeria.”The ‘b-r root in the name ‘Eber and in the name ‘iber-iym (Hebrews), Oduyoye says occur in Hebrew ‘abar ‘(cross over, trespass, pass on, past by); twi boro (to trespass); Yoruba afara (bridge); Ibara (ford); Ibara-mu (Across the nose); eburu[Shortcut (across an area)].Oduyoye then declares: “the ‘iber-iym, (Hebrews)go that name because being nomads, they were always passing by the cities of the Canaanites and never settling among them ‘-b-r means “pass on, pass by in judges 19: 12b, 18 and in Ruth 4:1The sons of the Gods and The daughters of Men is a many-layered work which value continues to be uncovered with repeated reading.

Many more fascinating information are enclosed in its pages: like the link between Adamu Orisa (of the Awori Eyo masquerade in Lagos State) and Hebrew r’ison Adam, the link between Qayin(Cain) and Ogun the Yoruba Patron Saint of Smiths.The latter link is particularly interesting in its detective nature. On the latter, Oduyoye notes that Hebrew Qayin is cognate with the Arabic word for smith(s) qayn/quyun.Reminding us of the q/g/k consonantal liquidity, Oduyoye says the words are cognate with the Yoruba Ogun and Fon Gun both meaning “patron saint of smiths.” Other cognates include Hamn kuno (Investor of iron smelting) and Ebira Egene(the caste of Smiths)He reminds us too tat the name Akin (valiant man) is most prevalent in Ondo which shares the n-d  consonantal root with the land of Nod to which Qayn  headed after leaving Eden. And is there a link between the city of Hanok (Enoch) and the Nok culture of Jos Plateau in Nigeria? And can the name Yoruba be a distant relation of Europa?

While the book’s appendix gives further detail on some words already tackled in the body-proper and summarises the main pillars of Oduyoye’s arguments, the index is a mini Afro-Anglo-Semitic dictionary.

When in 1972, Modupe Oduyoye, language expert and exegete, unleashed his book “The Vocabulary of Yoruba Religious Discourse” on the public, it sent shock waves throughout the linguistic community. Exegetes are experts who undertake critical study of texts, especially the Bible.Oduyoye’s theories were bold, daring. He seemed to harbor no reverence for any hallowed folk etymology, but what his phonological tools told him. He challenged and often discredited many conventional etymological conclusions of the time.However, his arguments were difficult to fault. They were intellectually water-tight and many times air-tight.For one, they demolished once and for all, all notions that a ‘monolingual” approach is sufficient to find the root meanings (etymology) of difficult words in Yoruba – or any language for that matter.

In many of his explanations of Yoruba words, Oduyoye drew from languages from outside Yoruba.Secondly, Oduyoye demonstrated most vividly, the relationship, already acknowledged by language experts, between Semitic languages like Hebrew, Akkadian, Aramaic, Ugaritic, and many African languages like Hausa, Tiv. Efik, Yoruba, Ibibio, Igbo, Fon, Twi etc.Oduyoye’s book was actually in response to the publication in 1969 of the report of the first consultation of African theologians held in Ibadan in 1966 with the title: “Biblical Revelations and African Beliefs.”The report was subsequently recommended for the General Assembly of the All African Congress of Churches in September 1969. Oduyoye read and reviewed the publication.Contributors to the conference included eminent scholars like the late Professor Bolaji idowu; Rev. E.A.A. Adegbola and Monsignor (Ezeanya. Oduyoye wasn’t very satisfied with many of the conclusions.Now he joined the “fray” armed to the teeth.

Oduyoye had studied Hebrew at Yale in 1964, Comparative Semitic Linguistics at the Linguistics Institute of the Linguistics Society of America on a grant from the American Council of Learned Societies in 1965, Arabic at Yale from 1965 to 1966 and Middle Egyptian in London from 1969 to1970. Added to this was his intimate knowledge of the traditions of his people, the Yoruba, a considerable knowledge of many Nigerian and African languages and a passionate curiosity about words and their origins.

So Oduyoye undertook a review of the theological conference with the best tools.While the scholars who contributed papers at the conference put up commendable efforts, Oduyoye could see that they were sorely limited by their, mostly monolingual tools.Oduyoye’s tool was different. It was comparative theology at its keenest. With profuse references to linguistic authorities in Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic) languages, Oduyoye sliced through hitherto impregnable words with the cold objectivity of an intellectual guillotine.Who, for instance, would fault Oduyoye when he pointed out that Igbo “dibia” (medicine man) is cognate (has the same origin) with Arabic “tibia” (Physicnan, doctor)? Or that Yoruba ajo is cognate with Hebrew Haj and Arabic Hajj? And that “Alhaji” is cognate with Yoruba Alejo?You see, in philology, (the scientific study of the nature and growth of words and languages) consonants like k, l, s, t, etc are the tell-tale that give away the relationships between words. These consonants are to words what bones are to fossils. Though vowels (the flesh) may decay or change as words travel over time and space, the consonants (bones) remain. It is these consonants (consonantal roots) that philologists use to track words to find their meanings or genealogy.But then, some consonants are “liquid”, that is, change form from language to language.Thus, when the English word “guava” gets to Yoruba-speaking peoples, the consonant “v”, being absent Yoruba pronounciation becomes “b” or “f””. So guava becomes “goba” or “gofa”. Similarly “l” often becomes “r”, “s” becomes”sh” (e.g. among Ibadan indigenes) or “th” or even “z”.Philologists look out for these consonantal changes (liquidity) in the “detective work of tracking words.

Armed with these basic rules of comparative philology, Oduyoye tracked the irun-prefix in Yoruba Irunmale(divinities) hitherto thought to be “400” to the Arabic” word harem and Hebrew herem both of which convey the idea of “sacred” or “holy”. The r-m-consonantal roots are clear, but the “h” is missing in Yoruba, Oduyoye says, because “Yoruba nouns generally do not begin with an /h/ or any h-type sound.”From Ijebu “Lisa” (chief of first rank) to Igbo “Olise” (“God” as in Olisemeka) to “Lesa” among the Ambo of Malawi, the Barotse, the Bemba, the Kaonde, Lala, Lamba, Oduyoye, tracks the “l-s” consonantal root (which liquid forms are r-s” “l-z” “r-th” which all convey the idea of “head” “chief” first”) to Hebrew “rosh” (first) to Arabic “ras,” Aramaic “resh” and Akkadian “rishu”. And to Yoruba “Orisha”. In fact Hebrew “Harison-iym” is translated “Ancestors” in Psalm 79.8 of the Jerusalem Bibe Oduyoye says, the “-iym” being a mere plural suffix in HebrewOduyoye also laces Yoruba Religious Discourse, with interesting “linguistic gossips in the foot notes like generous crumbs of stock-fish in an already delicious Osiki soup.However, Oduyoye’s glaring success did not get into his head. He acknowledged the pioneering efforts of eminent scholars like Archdeacon Olumide Lucas (who was teacher to his father) with whom he actually corresponded while writing the book:

‘The thoughtful restudy of past scholarship is not criticism for the sake of criticism, but an attempt to elucidate the principles involved in the discovery of truth… in doing this, however, it is right that we express our gratitude and respect to those whose work is being used and restudied, and, without whose pioneering zeal and daring,the present evaluation will not have been attempted.” Oduyoye wrote, quoting yet another authority.

So when seven years later, in August 1979, the Bishop of the Anglican Diocese of Odogbolu, (now in Ogun State) the Rt. Rev. I.B.O. Akintemi, invited Oduyoye to lead a series of Bible studies at the diocese’s clergy schools, it was an opportunity to take apart Genesis 1 – 11 with the scalpel of Hamito-semitic (Afro Asiatic) philology.Puzzles usually glossed over by other interpreters came under Oduyoye’s scrutiny. “Why” Oduyoye asks, “does the Hebrew language have a world with a plural suffix (-iym) as its word for “God” when Hebrew religion is anti-polytheistic?”“Who,” Oduyoye asks “are the sons of the Gods of Genesis 6:1?”Traditional interpretation will say “angels” or “Israelites”, but Oduyoye says “no” to both.Hear Oduyoye “And thus I dug up the questions those obvious in the English version and those patent only to one who reads from the Hebrews text. The true nature of the literary corpus we were studying thus becomes clear, and the need for interpretation could not be questioned…” The result, expectedly, was extraordinary. And for the , it was fascinating, if a mite disturbing.  What would these unusual interpretation do to the faith of Christians? One of them wondered aloud.Oduyoye’s response was simple: “Christian preaching certainly needs a stronger pillar to lean upon than a basis of obscurantism.”Oduyoye himself was and remains an eminent member of the Church having served in many capacities, including being the literature secretary of the Christian Council of Nigeria.

The following is just to whet appetite and make you really want to get a copy.

Katsumoto: I believe the Yoruba migrated to SW Nigeria but I, also, do not buy into these various hypothesis of the Yoruba being an off-shoot of other ancient civilizations for two reasons

1. There is no evidence to prove such relationships. And I don't like the associated guesswork

2. Ife did not need to be related to another civilization for it to be great. And no civilization does anyway.

Ancient Ife was great simply because of the people who were present there.

Mr Katsumoto, I give you Mr Modupe Oduyoye,

Yoruba,
Historian,
Linguist,
Theologian,
Scholar on Yoruba, Semitic languages.

If this man does not know what he is talking about, then nobody does. Read his publications. Good luck!

http://www.karnakhouse.co.uk/authors/mudope.html

shymexx: 401 gods? I never knew the Yoruba's had that many gods. That's shocking and interesting. I definitely need to do more scholarship and reading about Yoruba history and spirituality. I'm still scratching the surface at the moment.

However, I might decide to play a blinder here and suggest that we should also look at the ancient Colchians - since the great Greek historian asserted that: "The Colchians, Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only nations that have from the first practised circumcision." It might sound funny and implausible but since the ancient Colchians were believed to have lived around the Black Sea, in present day Georgia - and they were also negroes. Who knows, we might come up with something interesting. If the Afrikaans could migrate all the way from Europe to today's South Africa - anything is possible. We just need to keep exploring different links.


The Nok proto-Yoruba theory is also interesting. If that link can be proven to be historically accurate. Then we all must accept that Yoruba tradition/culture evolved through different stages before it got to Ife and into what we've got today. And that should open up outlets for other theories that might want to trace Yoruba origin further to where it all started from.

I'll get the book. Thanks, Sir.

Proudly Yoruba!

Shalom!

Whatsup with this Shalom thing, are you a Rabbi now?

On the subject of Yoruba, Oduduwa, Lamurudu, Oranmiyan and all the heroes and legends, there has been tremendous output here in Nairaland. I have learnt a lot directly and indirectly from the many archived discussions. We are not blessed to have a vertically structured heirarchy for the various topics and so we run into mix ups and end up rubbing one another the wrong way because our understanding clashes.

I laughed at your shocked response to the 401 gods. I want to share a personal experience but before that I want to clarify that what I called gods should be viewed more as divinities - the divinities of heaven and earth. In Yoruba we call them Orunmila (heaven) and Irumole (earth). These are cosmic forces. Then in the individual being there are also divinities and the most reverred of this is what Yoruba call "Ori".

There are evenly divided number of divinities between heaven and earth, two hundred each, sothey total four hundred. The odd one that adds to make four hundred and one is the infinite source..the head Orisha that we fondly call Baba Orunmila.

Read the following Ifa script and compare with what both the Bible, Talmud and Quran say about the command of God to the Angels to name the newly created animals and at which none knew their names, but when He asked Adam to name them he promptly gave each animal its name. At that point they all paid homage to Adam, except Satan. How come this metaphor in Abrahamaic faiths is also found in Ifa manuscript? In extension, notice the last statement in the act of prostration and touching the head to the ground, a common ritual of head worship observed in Yoruba culture and the Abrhamaic faiths.


However taken from Ifa Sacred Poems was a story about "Ori" (head) the king of the body. Ori (head) was the only divinity that broke the kola nuts that Orunmila kept at his shrine. Ori's wish was for a permanent abode (home) and plenty of followers. Upon hearing the news of the finally broken Kola-nuts, all the other divinities agreed, (since they all tried to break the nuts) that the "Head" was the right divinity to the Kola-nuts. Almost immediately the hand, feet, body, stomach, chest, neck etc, each of which before then had distinct identities, all assembled and decided to go and live with the Head. Together, they all carried the Head high above as the king of the body. It is on account of the role-played by Orunmila in his fortune that the head touches the ground to defer and revere to Orunmila to this day.


On Nok, it is an Aksumite culture. If we put a map of Africa on the wall and for each culture where we find a connection for Yoruba customs we denote it with a colored marker you will discover that Yoruba in SW Nigeria is a dump or aggregation of dotted Yoruba and proto Yoruba groups who in their ancient roots were dispersed variously across AfroAsia...from Aksum to Yemen to Sudan, to Egypt, Canaan and Assyria.

Cush birthed Egypt but Canaan birthed Babylon. Yoruba came out of these civilizations, which was also instrumental in teaching Greek what it knew of science, arts and occult.

This would explain the many correspondences in Yoruba words and those of tongues raised from Greek/Roman letters. It would also explain why the Ife bronze heads have correspondence in Roman bronze arts. One civilization instructed both. Greece and Rome is closer geographically to the seats of those civilizations than Yoruba of SW Nigeria is. So how did Yoruba get these knowledge?

My theory is Yoruba was physically internal and a commonwealth part of that civilization and later migrated from it to present location.

Other theory is that Yoruba had no commonality to these civilizations and what we observe in language and arts is a common phenomena broadly distributed among human cultures. That is challenging for me to accept, unless we can equally come up with similar quality arts and language and God-belief that we find in Yoruba in places like Nupe, Ibo, Igalla, Ijaw, Congo tribes, Kenya tribes, Uganda and other sub saharan cultures, which would then make the Yoruba case a non-unique situation.

I dont want to talk too much but I didnt forget to share experience but some other time maybe.

Shalom Rabbi Shymexx..

olumidaie: obanikoro is not a yoruba name; it is a bini name. obanikoro and some chiefs were sent by the oba of bini to counsel and guide prince ado after the conquest of awori. the binis later renamed the place eko: meaning war camp.

Bini did not go to Lagos to conquer Awori, they went, on invitation of Awori, to deter Dahomey from occupying them.

Ladi, Obanikoro is one of the Ogalade chiefs (priest) title that came with Ado from Bini.

Shymexx,

I read both responses. When we are seeking to gain knowledge on special fields we head to the library. Why the library? Because we can get different views shared by different scholars and moreover, acquire new references and value added knowledge presented through lateral branches of that field.

Yoruba arts is a library! None of the various positions presented here is new to my eyes, Ive read various publications on the Ife dynasties and Oduduwa and Obatala and Obalufon, as well Moremi. Everything in Yoruba art separates it from its sub-saharan sister kingdoms. In other words, you cannot find in any other sub-saharan arts such finesse and excellence in craftsmanship. When you look at the gods and their pantheon, in relationship to terrestrial and celestial hierarchies, you don't find any other sub-saharan people that has 401 gods that "ascend" and "descend" the realms of heaven and earth. If we cant find it in sub-sahara, then..is it even possible it exists anywhere else? Yes it does exist somewhere else! Well, where? In AfroAsia!

I dont know if Yorubas started Ile Ife, or if they started in Nineveh..but I do know tons of cultural arts connect the two. Im engaged at moment inspecting AfroAsia. It is possible I will end my journey back in Ife..who knows? So, im not rigid on the subject, not at all, Im open minded.

I want to ask you to read Suzanne Blier's Art in Ancient Ife, Birthplace of Yoruba. If you read online be sure you get the pdf copy. Im making this exception only because you are my Ijebu brother..ordinarily I dont recommend books.

Ewe so o

macof: Where have I ever claimed atheism? assumptions again like usually.

I do wat ever I am comfortable with but when it comes to uncertain history u don't base on assumptions.

there's no evidence of any outside Ile-Ife origin, even the Ijebu who have their latest mass migration from waddai were exposed to Ile-Ife culture on their rest there before joining other aborigines and mixing together in present day Ijebu.

How is Ijebu not part of Ife but yet are sandwiched between people with origins in Ife?

Can anyone please trace their path between Chad and Ijebuland. If they had no foothold in Imperial Ife then what are they doing in the interior of Yorubaland?

TerraCotta: Kats--I agree with the sentiment of your post but I don't think there's any evidence that Japanese needed to borrow a term of thanks from Portuguese (or vice verse). In fact, there's every reason to believe that they are false cognates--two words that have very similar meanings in different languages and are assumed to have the same origin. More here.

The obrigado/arigato issue is an example of the sorts of fanciful etymologies and guesswork-turned-rumor-turned-fact that can cause confusion about history and plagues this thread. I once gave the example of the Latin word "ubi" and the Ife-Ijesha dialect "ubi" (standard Yoruba "ibi", all roughly meaning "somewhere", "a place" etc) here on Nairaland as an example of false cognates. Since then though, I've seen some misguided people use it as "proof" of the relationship between Latin and Yoruba.

Similarly, we have a Yoruba word like "Oduduwa" with primordial Yoruba translations and attachments to other religious terms like "odu" and "olodumare", but we are asked to believe that it is the name of a foreign warrior in an unknown language, a "corruption" of a Bini phrase ("Imadoduwa" ) etc. These are highly unlikely roots.

Shymexx--

In order to indulge this idea, I'd like to ask a few questions. If we are to accept that Egyptians were the founding figures in Ife, where are the hallmarks of Egyptian classical civilization in West Africa? Why are there no pyramids, hieroglyphs, hieratic writing, mummification, Egyptian regalia and so on? Conversely, why does Yoruba culture in general and Ife art in particular venerate the head in such specific detail, making them one-third of the full size of their sculptures? What is the Egyptian equivalent to "ori inu" or the Ogboni handshake? Where are the orikis in Egyptian culture and where is there a record of Ifa divination with opon and iroke? Why are the Yoruba deities quite geographically specific--the Rivers Niger and Osun, the hills of Ibadan, Ire-Ekiti and so on--with no reference to the Nile, the Tigris or the Euphrates? These are specifically Yoruba details with no known parallels to these supposedly ancenstral cultures. Why is that? If Egyptians had some sort of formative influence on the culture of Ife, they seem to have left remarkably little evidence of their presence. On the other hand, there is quite a lot of proof and a logical reason to believe that Yoruba culture developed relatively close to the areas in which it is currently practiced.

How do we all know that Yoruba didn't start in Ife, by the way? I'm just wondering about the source of your specific belief.

While you are waiting for response from targets, wanted to share on something very important. I learnt this long ago in my probe for sound names.

In a response sometime ago to tpia, you said River Niger is called Oya in Yorubaland, which is true. River Niger, for perharps, 100yrs now is recorded on maps as "Niger". If we follow the river in its length across the diverse lands and ask for local names we will come up with different names for it..but in our linguafranca we all call it Niger. This resulted from political colonization.

The Congo flows across many lands and tongues and im sure "Congo" is its linguafranca.

Could "Nile" be a linguafranca name as well, and perharps each land on its banks call it a different name?

If that be true, what names was the Nile called in its past? Does one of that exist in Yoruba deity worship?

I didn't mean to hobnose into issues raised for others but thought that might be helpful.

Katsumoto: 1. You called Ifa a religion and I was only using your nomenclature when I referred to Ifa as a religion. So you are only correcting yourself. Lets try to be consistent and not try to appear more knowledgeable in debate.

2. Who will be this crowned king? That there is the first problem you will create. This problem in itself will recreate Kiriji and will kill the Odua nation. If the kings of old could not eliminate one another through war and conquest, what right would any of them have to lay claim as the supreme leader? Trying to impose one religion will also create problems. In my view, Yoruba sons and daughters should only be educated about Ifa corpus through to Secondary school. Everyone should practice what works for them. What should bind Yoruba should be a socio-cultural bond.

Yes, ive always regarded Ifa as a spirituality and wasnt even aware I spoke wrong when i called it a world religion. Thanks for pointing that out.

I hope everyone participating here can see your call for wisdom in contributions, we all need to live by that code. Im not a fan of intellectual debates, i love intellectual sharing. Forgive me if my response appeared argumentative or confronting.

We have come a long way since invasion by foreign ideologies and like I said earlier Yoruba kings now answer to a headman. Is that structure good for our future? I dont know!

The Western model of democracy work for some but not for all and may not be an ideal model in an independent Yoruba considering it will be in conflict with Yoruba indigenous model of democracy. We can have a hybrid where the politicians run the affairs of government but the Kings pilot the culture. Ifa will be the official faith belief of the Nation but everyone is free to practice what they want.

Katsumoto: I am sorry but that is a lot of BS. How can behind and ehin be cognates? The problem with your approach is that you think speaking and reading/writing were developed at the same time. If we don't read and write language, how would you describe the relationship between 'behind' and 'ehin' other than then ehin letters being present in behind?

You are correct in that nobody will buy the relationships you are suggesting. English and Yoruba do not have the same proto language. Linguistic relationships are based on shared characteristics that do not result from borrowing. Portuguese has many words that are borrowed from Japanese. Someone using your approach will conclude that Portuguese and Japanese are cognates. Obrigado for instance was derived from Arigato; 'arigato is Romaji (application of latin writing to Japanese) which is quite different from the normal Japanese style of logographic characterization.

You are looking at "spoken words" from one dimensional flat experience.

Your brain is capable of processing the text but your spirit is not broad enough to see or appreciate the many waves and spectrum involved in the sound of the letters themselves.

Quincy Jones, in an interview, once said there are sixteen notes in music. He shocked his host and guests who were raised learning only 7, and at the orchestra level 12.

You are right, its BS and I will leave it at that.

Katsumoto: The Olympics will be held in Rio which has little Yoruba influence. Visitors to the WC will be more exposed to Yoruba culture in Bahia.

I don't what you mean by Ifa being a world religion. Isn't it practiced by those who believe in it? Why do others need to practice it? The acceptance of your religion by others doesn't make it the right religion.

It would not be so easy to take Yoruba out of Nigeria. I also believe that a common enemy unites the Yoruba. Nigeria united the Yoruba; I fear that there could be a return to old rivalries in a Yoruba only nation. Just my opinion.

Yes thats true but visitors are reading up on Brazil before they even get there and places of interest are earmarked for visitation.

Mr Katsumoto, religion has failed humanity. It is sad, that even the teachings of God and the doctrines of morality has failed to concile the spirit to its state of righteousness. Who can save us from the deceipts and immorality of religion? People are insatiated by a hunger to know self..they need a substitute. People are returning to their own inner fires for self salvation and this is why yoga, taichi and all these new age spirituality are spreading. They are old secrets finding new subscribers.

Ifa is a spirituality, not a religion.

Shymexx responded to you and earlier on the topic of good/bad. A good person worships man and dogmas, a bad person worships himself..only someone who is balanced between good and bad worships God and they are good company to have. Living good and bad is in line with the universal principle of harmony and balance.."the median way". Religion taught good as God and positioned bad as evil, but failed to extoll the virtues of the middle path, the inner struggle and its paradoxes and what it means in mundane living. Ifa teaches the opposite. Ifa teaches and extols Eshu, the guardian of the middle path - harmony and balance.

I am in reference to political sovereingty when i say take Yoruba out of Nigeria. Socially, we will continue to have diversity in Yorubaland and cohabit with other ethnics but in a diplomatic arrangement. The experience of 1899 to regional Independence in 1957 is a marker, that of 1963 to date is another marker.

In its history, both in wartimes and peacetimes, no bloody person ever told Ife or Oyo what to do..no one, until after Kiriji! The colonial foreigners gave orders to Oyo and Ife from 1900 to 1957. Then from 1963 forward, Nigerian leaders gave orders to Oyo and Ife.

We might not return to an ancient structure of rulership but the political heirarchy of Yoruba nation will never change from its ancestry. The head of Yoruba nation will not be a President, it will be a Crowned King..and we hold true as part of our constitution tha the Head is the overall ownership of a destiny, therefore divesting away from an arrangement in which our Heads and destiny is directed and ordered by a Igbo or Hausa or Ijaw is in our collective interest, self serving and great for our future, inspite of other oddities laying in wait to haunt us internally and from within our commonwealth.

740megawatts: The truth is that the more we stay in this entity called Nigeria, the more we lose our Yorubaness and the more difficult it'll be to trace a lot of ancient events to their respective timelines. As we are discussing this now, a lot of Yoruba dialects are going into extinction because we have all adopted the Oyo dialect as the standard language. Besides, many cultural and traditional practices have been (and are still being) phased out in a span of over 70 years!!! For example, I grew up speaking the Oyo dialect and I can't communicate in my native Ekiti language at the moment. I don't even understand a bit of it....now, let us fast forward to say, 50 years from now, what is going to be the fate of the Yoruba language and its numerous dialects?

So, I believe this is the time for Yoruba nation as a whole to get its act together and initiate massive research into our past. It is now or never...

I agree. A nation must live by the principle of evolution..it must periodically be killed and reborn. Yoruba is continously being killed, no one has reborn it in 30yrs, very troubling for our evolutiin forward.

Oyo became the standard from an administrative need of the colonial government to better supervise and manage the territories. The work of Crowther was more than just missionary, he was also instrumental in calibrating the alphabets. The alphabets need a review and recalibration and this should be the work of our linguists.

Visitors to the next Olympics will see Brazil but will also be exposed to Yoruba influence and this will open a new gate in cultural interest and exchanges, writers, film makers and so on that will again promote Yoruba culture. Perharps we can expect, in addition to the proud past, an emerging future that could make Ifa a world religion.

Yoruba leaders can take us out of Nigeria before tomorrow has dawned, they know what to do politically and legally to make that a reality. There are certain social structures that were lost to the Nigerian identity and we need first to regain and reinstall those. We have to regain it through the electoral and legislative process first, its a drawn out struggle. If Yoruba can continue to install one government and agenda on the land like we did with AG, UPN and now ACN, I believe in another 20 or 30yrs of that uniformity Yoruba will comfortably divest itself from Nigeria .

Shymexx,

On the comparisons of English and Yoruba words, Im not on a wild goose chase; I have a vast collection of words and sounds like I said primarily connecting Yoruba with Old Hebrew language. The keyword is "old hebrew"! That language had origin in Canaan and gave birth to many other modern languages of North Africa, Middle East and influenced Latin/Roman vocabulary.

I looked at how a word as simple as "ra", just two letter words, ended up with penetrating influence in the life of many cultures around the globe.

Im not going to get peoples ears if I start showing how Yoruba is direct linked with modern semitic and arabic languages, simply because no one here will appreciate the connection and anything arab is an automatic turn off. If I say the english word "behind" and yoruba word "ehin" are cognates people will not have problem accepting that. However if I say english word "lately" and yoruba word "lailai" (layelaye) are cognates I will get a pushback. Also, nobody will appreciate that the english word "run" and yoruba word "orun" (sun) have same root. So I have to be careful what I share and its presentation..there is need for softness.

I use english words for the comparisons with Yoruba to highlight the fact that they are both contributions from the same bucket and that bucket is in Egypt/Canaan and thus advancing the placement of Yoruba in AfroAsiatic founding.

740megawatts: Yeah, they are very much more of hypotheses at their infancy. It might take a lot of time, fund and effort to come out conclusively with the real origin of the Yoruba people. This is not a even a twenty year research, it will take a long time to put all the missing jigsaw in place. The eventual result(s) of such a series of investigation will shock a lot of people, including myself. Meanwhile, we should try not to condemn anybody's research that seem out of place at the moment, that's the best way to kill a researcher's spirit.

I wish Yorubaland were a nation on its own, it would have been much more easier to fund such research within our national research. As it is now, it would be very difficult to embark on such a research within the borders of Nigeria.

Excellent point!

I saw your earlier response as well. The title of this thread is best utilized by the collection of images in the earlier pages. We can no longer find settlements or even these objects anymore in Yorubaland and these were documentations from just 1942. In these objects you can still see traces of foreign practice in the Yoruba society. If it was possible to see image records of Yoruba in 1842 Im sure the foreigness will be more defined. How about in 1742, in 1642..? As you dial back the time we will arrive at the age and society that created the Ife bronze heads and its terracotta copies. Those arts clearly tell us they belonged in another land. I dont see why if that Yoruba society, represented by a foreign artefact, can have a foreign root but the Yoruba of today does not.

We are now looking to pinpoint the foreign home. When we agree on the location we want to know why they uprooted.

shymexx: Intelligent post. I believe the problem with most of us is that we don't like leaving our comfort zones to explore more. Also, we just read and assimilate a lot of junk, without necessarily educating our minds - and logically trying to discern what we read to get better a understanding. If most of these European academics who wrote most of the history books our arm-chair historians like to quote also failed to explore - I'm sure we won't have any history books today.

It's time for Africans to get up and start exploring. We can keep letting people tell us our own history. And oral history is more or less pure junk, and it has no place in today's world. Yoruba history didn't start in Ife. It started from somewhere else. And it wasn't just one migration wave. I believe it's definitely more than one. It's now time for us to start putting forward different hypothesis - sieve them and try to connect the dots. There are a lot of pointers out there for those who care about acquiring knowledge and demystifying the mystery behind the origin of the Yoruba's.

1. Yoruba past has many branches of knowledge that unless its going to be a total and all around submission, an encyclopedia of Yoruba in Humanities, then history alone cannot explain Yoruba roots and origin. Neither is it possible that language or geography or myth, taken individually, can explain where we originated.
Yoruba is greater than any one individual academic discipline trying to contain and explain it in a book.

2. It is said.."In the mid 1800s British Navy was unarguably the best marine and sea warriors".
The world's best sea warriors were defeated multiple times by Yoruba sea warriors. How many Yorubas know this?

When the English warriors got the final victory, the instance in each case was decided by acts of accidents not directly related to man to man combat, and well into the expiration of their human spirit and endurance and their last hope only held together by the emotions of humiliation.

Where are our historians to research and write on this history? In fact, the research might raise questions on the background of Ijebu's marine skills and its root.

3. Oral history is relevant, humanity is never going to do away with oral tradition. In the age of written communication, oral records are unpopular but that does not make them irrelevant. Writing is flat ..one dimensional. Oratory is robust and multi dimensional.

4. Yoruba is made up of the following:

Priesthood -
Kingship -
Occult -
Community -
Language -
Worship -
Customs -

Each is a tradition brought from specific place between Hamitic, Semitic and Kushitic. For example, Yoruba priesthood is Hamitic and can be said to originate from Egypt; the Kingship is also Hamitic and from Assyria/Babylonia. Using the placement we begin to see the diversity in Yoruba and its footprint distribution on the map.

Fulaman198: hi I just sent you an e-mail you should be unbanned now

Thank you sir. I see you recovered the post.. Thanks much.

Shalom Shymexx,

Eweso Omo Alare

Thanks for chipping in, I like both of your responses, very insightful.

I dont hold grudges, I still respect 9jacrips view, even though it is diverse from my affirmation on origin.

There are many angles to the origin story and Katsumoto attempted to clarify it but I think he went overboard, in my view. He said the tradition of origin is comprehensive and founded on good authority, which is accurate.

Everyone agrees Ifa is the spirit of Yoruba nativity. Ifa text is hermeneutics and its language is far more ancient than the interactive spoken language we use in social communication.

The interpretation and meaning of the creation myth and the roles played by the principal deities and heroes is lost on us. The first written record of it in modern language occurred in 1921 and is narrated in a publication titled the Myths of Ife..dictated by Araba Ifa.

In addition to the many correspondences in ancient Yoruba and ancient Hebrew, there are as well rites, articles, customs, creeds and so on in which one finds mirrored copy between the two cultures.

The Yoruba apex philosophical mantra is "omoluabi". In Yoruba custom omoluabi is incomplete without respect and adulation to elders. This is performed physically by prostrating or kneeling.

Which other culture in the world pays homage in these acts?

These are my quests. Im not concerned about whether Yoruba is muslim or not or whether its root is in mecca or not. My probe has legs and it repeatedly walked me to AfroAsia in each of the lead i followed.

The sounds I reproduced, i dont think people are un impressed to learn that Forgive and Foriji are cognates or that Peter and Apata are correspondents.

Why do we, or I should say "I",..why do "I" need credentials in Western academics to investigate and understand the passions and inquisitions in my spirit? What is degree or specialty in language going to add to my natural gift for sound and art?

Does a carver need a degree? Yet he produces work that everybody adores.

The artists that produced Ife Bronze heads, were they credentialed?

Is Picasso or Michelangelo credentialed?

Specialties have their use and value to society, it does not interfere or required in my sphere of interests.

macof: The sultan is not telling the truth.

How can u even consider that Oyo came from Mecca? When everyone knows they were led by Oranmiyan from of Ile-Ife

Is that the consensus and everyone that have problem with the Sultan's claim are in agreement with your response?

9jacrip, ladionline..are you guys concurrent with macof's response?

ladionline: Thanks for this one. There is one mistake that everyone of us citing Sultan Bello kept making: the account of Yoruba origin creditted to Bello is a fusion of (1) 'what (a wonderful thing) Yoruba contains' and (2) 'how Yoruba originated at Mecca. Sultan Bello offered Clapperton (1) in his first journey, and I believe he (Clapperton) offered Sultan Bello the Hamitic theory. Maybe he read the story to the exhaulted Sultan and get him to 'approve' it by making the tradition have an African outlook. Have you ever wonder why sultan said 'we are informed'? Who was the informant? The Sultan was sending a 'secret message' that looked like 'Balak and Balam' epic in the bible. He was being 'used' in a politico story but he was careful.

You have not answered my question. Everybody charges me for speculating but then you all avoid my questions.

Please answer the question i asked.

ladionline: Metaphisical, you know I believe just like you that yorubas originated at the middle east. But, my anchorage is Yoruba tradition itself, not Sultan Bello. WYou do not seem to value 9jacrip anymore? Who is left to belief us? Evidence is all we need to proof a point, not similarity of sound, except you are okay to call your research speculative. But if you are unbreakably sure you are right, the opposite applies too. Do you want to impose your view or give no brainer tradition to confirm your claim? That's what you must do. Brother, I may not be as patient as you are, but folks like 9jacrip and others are blessings. If you can?'t convince them, how can you convince Yoruba population? Will you resolve to talk or stalk?

The first thing to consider is whether or not Sultan is telling the truth with that claim.

Give me your thought on his truthfullness on the claim. I would like to pursue this to its logical conclusion.