₦airaland Forum

jay7:
Please stop giving imaginary figures, I am a transporter and I know what it takes to make it through transport, I own the car myself so don't even think I deliver to anyone, fine there is money in transportation but not as you are painting it to be, if you don't know your game well, car maintenance will drain you to zero.

Did you read my comment at all before typing? If you read it, you will see that what you just typed as it relates to imaginary figures does not hold water.


So, we are both clear on this. When I did the calculations on that very day while in the guys vehicle, I was tempted to ask him and he opened up on this. So, this is not an imaginary figure but something real. Maybe you are moving through routes where all you make is N50 per passenger per trip. Please, I know what I typed and I stand by it.

Having a good vehicle (even if it is a second hand) makes the difference and I am aware that maintenance cost is to be considered. If this is done routinely and you don't wait till the vehicle breaks down completely, you will enjoy your vehicle better. Naija mentality is to over use the vehicle before simple oil is replaced. Then, we come up with stories of not making money.


Asides the car transport business, I know a man who engaged in bus transport business and within two years, he bought a land and built a beautiful house on it. While building his house, his only child gained admission to a private University and he paid for her expenses till he graduated. All these he did through the business alone. This man I know personally and the man is still sane as he was when he started the business.

Getting it right from the start matters a lot. So, please I stand by everything I typed.

jay7:
Please stop giving imaginary figures, I am a transporter and I know what it takes to make it through transport, I own the car myself so don't even think I deliver to anyone, fine there is money in transportation but not as you are painting it to be, if you don't know your game well, car maintenance will drain you to zero.

Can you please stop this? I know what I typed and even went further by asking the transporter. So, please if you are having issues with yours then find out what went wrong.

Besides, read my post again before you mention me and type these.

There is money in transport business and I stand by it. If you have a good vehicle, maintenance should not cost you so much that you will want to stop the business. Except you don't routinely carry out maintenance works on your vehicle and wait till it breaks down before doing anything.

To even go further on this, a bus owner (not car this time around) bought a land and built a house through transport business and also, sent his child to a private University all through this transport business and nothing else. This, he told me himself too and the property thing he achieved this within the space of 2 years doing the business while also paying for his daughter school fees.


There is serious money in transportation as long as you get it right.

Your gf is a low thinking fellow. You don't need such in your life.

She has no idea what those transporters make per day.

A man who owns a Sienna vehicle makes N10,000 per day based on the fact that he works with a company. So, when he goes to work in the morning, he carries passengers and when returning home. Based on the N10,000 he makes per day, he will make at least N200,000 per month (assuming 20 working days per month). Some people's salaries are not up to this.

Now, imagine if this man does this full time. That gf of yours has no thought and never a business minded fellow.

Please, tell him ASAP.

We can't have people spoiling the name Nigeria elsewhere. People who give genuine people bad names outside the country.

It will save you from being seen in that light if he later finds out that you also weren't honest with him.

Please, tell him.

I watched a video just recently of a guy in Nigeria who has been using love stories to scam a lady who is 30 years older than him. The idiot all in the name of wanting to use her to gain green card had to said Nigeria as a whole is not safe for her type of person. Rather than say the locality where he lives. He cooked up several lies just to sell himself to the lady and at the end, gave us a bad name. The usual thought now is that all Nigerians are scammers.

Please, don't wait for again in telling him the truth.

The VC also has his share of the blame. There are claims that he wasn't carrying everyone along which led to the Convocation scheduled earlier this year to be suspended.

You can't operate on your own in a higher institution system

BitmapStudios:
So because He did it once, it's not valid? Or it shouldn't be done now?

I have said yes, we do stream bath and it's only when the Holy Spirit asks us to. Basically, Celestial Church is run on the instructions of the Holy Spirit. The Bible doesn't emphasize on it is myopic. Except you want to believe God stopped talking or giving instructions after the compilation of the Holy Bible. I have said it many times and if you don't get it this time, I'm sorry, I can't say more. The Jews couldn't accept Jesus not because He doesn't teach like one with authority but, the records that they had never said anything about a man from Nazareth can be the Son of God.

Apostles were men like you and I, fallible. Oshoffa was a man. And this means, I cannot take their word for it 100%. How can you tell me to follow Paul's instruction of taking alcohol to an infirmity if Paul believes 'by His stripes we are healed' and that God is Jehovah Rapha? The same Peter that dined with Jesus and the first thing he would do is to start having believers bring monies and items at their feet? A thing Jesus never did. Please, the Apostles are not the custodian of the Holy Spirit, no one is. And that's the essence of the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus -to disperse His Spirit unto them who believe. Why is this hard to comprehend?

You let this me and other good people of this forum know.

#Cheers!

Christ never instructed that we practice it. God still speaks but He is not an Author of confusion.

It is you finding it difficult to comprehend the spiritual. Do you realize that Christ committed the great commission to no other persons but the Apostles. You still need to read more of the Bible, there is more to learn if you are open minded and you allow the Holy spirit to guide you.

I think I will have to stop here. It was nice having to discuss with you. I pray we all attain the full measure of Christ someday.

Shalom.

BitmapStudios:
Dear Lord. So, you point is, pool is fine but stream is not? Anyway, it's a good thing you're now saying God works in diverse ways. And should "washing" in the "pool" not Biblical, Jesus wouldn't have done it, yes? So, I take it you don't have first hand experience about the Celestial Church, 'cos, your assumption, from what I can deduce here is that, we do stream bath all the time and that's the only way we pray. Or perhaps, you haven't enquired of the Holy Spirit (that searched the deep things of God) to know if our practice(s) is/are not in tandem with the machinations of God.
Hence, it is very save to say, you are looking at the Church from the natural instinct.

Apostles are not my validation as they are also man -they can make mistakes. The way I see it, every believer is an Apostle, an we (the believers of the 21st century) are the Apostle being recorded for the Bible the next generation would read. At a point, Paul was scolding Peter and other church elders in Jerusalem. The red letters are my guiding principle.

Ok, in clear terms, what are the "practices" that need to be changed?

It wrong to have reasoned it this way. Reading without getting the main point. There wasn't a stream bath but a wash at the pool to wash off the mud. Also, another point is that there was never another time where Christ healed the blind with the same approach or method.

Stream Bath is part of the practice of Cele and Bible never emphasised the need for this.

This Apostle stayed with Christ and were commissioned by Christ to carry the gospel to all part of the earth. If you don't accept the Apostle but believe your founder is right and you should support everything from him then there is a problem somewhere. If those who stay with Christ physically and Christ imparted them with every knowledge and also breath upon them in order to receive Holyspirit are not okay by you then this is a big problem. That aside, I gave you a Bible verse to read which is in the Book of Mark. Christ Himself validated laying of hands. Was Christ also wrong?

As regards practices, you and I both know the areas to be addressed why ask again?

BitmapStudios:
And are you addressing from the Biblical point of view?

Lol... How do you wash yourself in a stream? But that's not even the point. The point is, what is the Biblical backing Jesus had to ask a man to go 'wash' himself in a stream? Couldn't He just decree like Elijah would?
So, until we understand God is dynamic and not static, the things of the spirit would be foolishness to us, since we've not seen them before or have a record or 'emphasis' of it/them before.

What emphasis are you asking for? Did Jesus emphasize on laying of hands? And yet, it's a common practice today, does that mean it's not of God?

I never said we don't pay tithe in Celestial Church of Christ, I was driving at your logic of making old testament inferior or less irrelevant than new testament and that Celestial Church chooses it above new testament -which is false, by the way.

And has the Holy Spirit told you Celestial Church of Christ is diabolical/occultic and not from and of God? Have you made your findings and you can say before God that Celestial Church is evil or does not practice the doctrines of Christ?

This logic is super wrong, you know? Are a Redeemers truly Redeemed? Are all Christians truly like Christ? So, asking if all Celestians are Redeemed and Christ-like is even Biblical myopic as Christ Himself warns us of false prophets and perverted teachers of the word.

Ultimately, one's salvation if one dwells in the act and art of pulling down and judging another. Jesus "emphasized" on that in Matthew 7:1. I would rather stay on what God has called me to do and pray for others, should I sense in my spirit that they are not getting it right.

#Cheers!

When Mud was placed on your eyes, so the next thing is to swim? Beside, the Bible said it was a pool. Christ healed the blind in divers form and not a pool style or practice throughout. Please, go read your Bible than quoting out of context.

As for laying of hands, you need to read your Bible. Please, check Mark 16:17-18. Also, asides this, the Apostles practiced the laying of hands for impartation of the Holy spirit. Please, can you see that it was emphasised in the Bible?

I never said Old was Inferior rather I emphasised the place of reading the Bible as a whole affirming the position of the Old in the New. I hope this is clear.

Read through my many comments and you will never see where I said it was diabolic or occultic. My point has remained the same, knowledge is progressive and as such many practices need to be corrected.

In conclusion, no one played the role of a judge, rather I only stated what the Bible says.

otipoju:
Let me just tell you something today. The person you are talking too has a bachelor's degree in Religious studies.

He spent good five years doing biblical exegesis...and knows how it differs from eisigesis which is what most of you are doing... riding the bible like a horse in any direction you please.

Your pastors will collect tithes and first fruits from you which are not anywhere in the new testament scriptures but tell you some practice is old testament and should not be done because it is unchristian.

Only the Holyspirit makes the difference. Not a degree in religious studies. Do you know what is called homiletics and hermeneutics? If you do, you will know this person you are relating with does not just rejoice in B.Sc degree. You get to know the Authors' intended meanings and not just your myopic thought or reasoning on the Bible. You really need the Holyspirit for guidance.

That settled, your shepherds also tell you how important tithe is with many songs composed on Tithe than any other pentecostal churches. If you read my other comments you will realize my Bible based view on Tithe. As for First fruit, I will also enlighten you since you lack understanding.

The Bible is clear that Tithe has been exchanged for giving. We are not bound by 10% anymore but a life that honours God through his or her giving. A life that values God and not bound by 10%. Give to God, to those in need, for mission work and others as lay down in the Bible.

To firstfruits, Christ became the firstfruits of the dead, every believer in Christ is a firstfruit to God and the Holy spirit has been given to us as firstfruit. So, we have nothing to give as firstfruit anymore since our lives have been given to Him as one.

So, you see I don't follow Pastors or founders as you do but I have based my life on WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

So, if you have nothing to say Biblically, please keep quiet and search the scriptures.

Let me also tell you how to read the Bible. Do not pick a verse and dwell on this. Read in completeness to understand the Author's intended meaning alone.

Every verse has only one meaning which is the Author's intended meaning.

Also, when you read the Bible, read the Old Testament and then find it's relevance in the New. As the New either explains more, emphasises more or exchange the old for a new.

I hope I have helped you so whenever you approach the Bible you will understand the mind of God and of course with the help of Holy spirit.

May the grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ be with us.

excel222:
You got it wrong, the church doesnt depend on prophecy but their dependency is in God in christ jesus. Again you are wrong to say there is not growth or development in the church because this church is one of the largest church in Nigeria today even after the death of d founder since 1985 , the church is the growing and winning souls for Christ.. Most importantly, those of you condemning this great church is not doing it because of God because God is capable of fighting His own battle or destroying anything evil as it so pleases him, rather are doing this things in d name of denomination or considering yours the best. leave it God to judge.

I never said there is no growth or development in the church. Please, don't quote me wrongly as I am referring to personal growth experience.

I have had many encounters from not just one parish both the big and small.

So, please don't get me wrong

Kallmerb:
Still go back re read your Bible then come back and I will ask God to open your eyes....stop following hearsay ..pls Follow Christ...even Christ doesn't judge ..suddenly you are in a Pentecostal church and now u are judge and jury because you lack depth understanding of a church you claim you attended

Hmmm..... I never made myself judge and jury. Get it right, you need depth of God's word to know more.

I detest even hearsay, I prefer knowing things myself. So, please don't judge me when you have no idea of the person.

You actually need to study your Bible for better insight. That's where you get it wrong when God wants to deal with an individual he does not ask another to be involved. So, you need to ask God for yourself.

Tankotanko:
Good piece, CCC is clearly the last ship of salvation. Take it to the bank. A place you worship and grow spiritually, if you are sincere and anyone that is evil fears you. Mind you he that fears you, can't hurt you. Hallelluia somebodyyyyyyyyy

No sir, a place you depend on prophecy without any personal growth and development and even clear understanding of the personal relationship God wants to have with you.

babaolofin:
Sir, thanks for your contribution on this topic. I will contact you personally on the research work I started last year October on Celestial Church of Christ. There is no perfect Church on Earth except those established by Christ himself. Explaining Bible from known to unknown to a person will always lead to argument and wastage of time. It takes a divine spirit for a church started by an uneducated poor man (Pa SBJ Oshoffa) in a poorly built wooden house beside Lagoon to attract a person in the 70s who later became General Superintendent (GS) of one of the largest Pentecostal churches in Africa. When they leave CCC to establish other churches they complain of the bad side of the church, what about the spiritual empowerment and revelations which they got? What about the Prophetic Spirit and school of the Holy Spirit which they passed through?

While I don't want to talk about C & S here, I will like to point out that Prophet Josiah Akindayomi, the founder of Redeemed Christian Church was a member and a great prophet of C & S before he left and later established RCCG. The Spirit of Prophet does not just leave a person because it does not know church or operates by Church. Baba carried the spirit till death and his Prophetic Staff (Opa Woli) was with him till death, It is even likely that staff was handed over to his successor. I believed Baba with his wives (until very few years before his death) have altar at home where they pray and God answered and the prophetic spirit was very powerful the way it had been right from C & S.

Talking about Old Testament and New Testament will bring a lot of argument by people who don't know much. The Catholic Church has explained so many things about sacramental but Pentecostal church will not agree. When you talk about Angels, they will blindly quote Bible, but Christ himself believe in the Ministry of the Angels and nearly all their G.Os believe in the Ministry of the Angels. The Feast of the Arch Angels (September 29) is just to remind Christians of the Ministry of the Angels. The G.O of a popular Pentecostal Church who was surprised by a big Thanksgiving Offering from his prominent member and wanted to know how the Miracle happened until the man told him he secretly visited a Celestial prophet when the Sickness was getting worse and got healed. The G.O asked him to return the offering to the Celestial Prophet and also requested to see the Prophet. They (GO) know there are diverse spiritual ways. Apostle Thomas Ministry in India will be different from Apostolic Ministry to Turkey.

The Holy Spirit raises prophets for particular area because of the peculiarity of the situation in that area. Despite various radical and aggressive evangelism by different Pentecostal churches with abracadabra and miracles crusade, the Celestial Church despite various crisis after the transition of Pa SBJ Oshoffa has remained very vibrant and dynamic. There is a Spiritual Force propelling that Church.

Biased conclusion even when we both know that there are abracadabra in Cele too. Do you know the driving force for the pentecostals? It is the power of Holyspirit at Pentecost which doesn't conform to practises.

God is not the God of methods.

BitmapStudios:
Did Apostlicsm end with Paul or any of the disciples? Did God stop giving man/mankind instructions after the Bible? Is the compilation we know as the Holy Bible the beginning and end of God's word for mankind?

The problem the Jews had with Jesus is similar to what most have with Celestial Church -they can't comprehend Jesus according to what Moses had taught them -Jesus is being blasphemous to the Almighty God -God doesn't have a Son -it's not in the book Moses gave them.

You're asking where Jesus tell us to light? Do you do all Jesus asks? Would you do all Jesus asks? Jesus asked a man to go have a bath in a stream to have his sight (after rubbing mud He he had made on his face), Jesus o, the Son of God, that all things were created through Him. Can you ever go do a stream bath? You would even say, it's not Biblical. Or said, 'it's so old testament, like Elisha did that, but this is new testament, just say a word'. Like Jesus condemned the old testament or when pastors want to hammer their campaign for tithes, they don't use the old testament to their advantage.

Who are we to box God on His machinations? How dare us think God can only work in certain ways and not in His way He chooses when He chooses?

Still, John of Patmos would write his Revelation of what Heaven is like in chapter 4. Celestial as the names depicts, is the representation of Heaven on earth.

#Cheers!

You are addressing this matter from reasoning and not Biblical point of view.

Jesus didn't instruct the blind man to do stream bath, he only said he should go to wash and judging from the context, it was his face since Jesus rubbed mud on his eyes. That Elisha did this does not suggest that it becomes a practice.

Tell me where emphasis was placed on practising stream bath.


Your shepherds also hammer on tithes telling you when you don't pay the 10%, it is 'idakuda' meaning anyhow payment. I first heard this in Cele back then. So, don't act as if it is not said in Cele too. Besides, knowledge is progressive and the basis of tithe has been exchanged for giving. We honour God by giving to him. So, it is more of value than law of 10%. We give God based on honour and how much we value Him and this is not bound by law of 10%. This is why I keep emphasising on studying the Bible to know more and allowing the Holy spirit to interpret His word.

Well, Cele makes us to believe God works in certain way as it is more of practice than being led by the Holy spirit. There should have been reforms if the Holy spirit is taken as priority as knowledge is never stagnant.

Celestial does not depicts the heavenly as if it does, are you then trying to say ALL CELESTIANS ARE THE REDEEMED AND SAINTS?

Even the Bible does not support this. Daily, we work out our salvation.

Kallmerb:
I don't know where you worshipped maybe it's the parish but I can clearly tell you most of what you wrote are totally False ...also claiming you understand the Bible and still wrote this is really disappointing ..I don't know the lies you are feed but if truly you want to learn the Bible locate a good Celestial church....or else pray at home for urself and tell God to open ur inner eyes and mind to understand his Word.


Truth is there are Good and bad in all churches,sects and denomination...some people have had bad and awful experience in some bad parishes doesn't mean all celestial church are bad ....

Imagine You were Born in Celestial church and doesn't even understand why Angel Micheal is included in our prayer structure .. are you sure you even read your Bible to Daniel 10

What has your family been doing in Celestial church if you dont understand the church or God in the church

Daniel 10 holds no basis for including Michael rather Jesus' statements (which is above Daniel or Angel Michael) on the importance of His name suffice.

otipoju:
Lol. Me I have not attended church for two years for valid personal reasons. I explained my reasons to God and look forward to the day I can go to another parish again.

My Dad stopped going to church for like ten years because of church politics, it did not stop him from having his altar at home and praying to God. Nobody disturbed him.

Cele no be cult ooo abeg. If you no come nobody send you message.

Where did I mention it being cult? Stop shooting yourself in the leg.

otipoju:
You make me laugh. You are saying that some parts of the bible should not be taken for what it is while some should be taken in a different manner.

Okay going by your logic:

Can you show me anywhere in the bible where God told the founder of Redeemed Christan Church of God to name his church by that name?....that name was found in Revelation right.

Or where God told Pastor Kumyyi in the bible to name his church Deeper life.

Or show me in the bible where you are told to use microphones to worship God...in bringing up these because it would sound foolish to you because that is exactly what how your assertions sound to me.

I am mirroring your logic.

Did you see me talk about name? Please, don't divert and stay on the topic of discussion.

If I may comment on names, I believe many names appeared based on the encounter they had with God. Remember, I used the word 'many' which does not mean 'all'.

On how to read the Bible, read the old and confirm it in the new. The new will either explain, emphasise or exchange. Explain further on the old, emphasise by a way of upholding the old or exchange by a way of replacement.

I hope you understand this.

noble2faith:
Nauttyprof and others .. It is of no use arguing with those guys. From their comments, I could deduce that they are not ready to accept the biblical truth. They are the type that are being spoon-fed with heresies, without verifying from the Bible. They accept everything their shepherds/pastors give to them hook, line and sinker.

I was born into Celestial Church. Out of my siblings, I was the first person that left the church. My being so close to the Bible enlightened me. I left the church during my teenage years. I observed that most of their doctrines might be biblical but they are unchristian. Calling the name of Angel Michael when praying is absolutely unbiblical. Angel Michael is never part of the Trinity.

My elder bro had left too. He witnessed something shocking when he was attending a Celestial Church in his locality. He shared the experience with me and I wasn't surprised when I heard it. I will not share it here. Mind you this my bro was a very dogged person in Celestial but he eventually left the church.

As for my other siblings that are still attending the church, one thing I observe about them, even in Celestial Church members, they don't have good knowledge about the Bible. Hardly you see them studying the Bible. This is the reason they don't know that most of their practices/doctrines are unchristian.

You are right. They are just being defensive of what they should search further for in the Bible.

They believe so much in the laid down practices believing Oshoffa was right in everything without knowing that knowledge is progressive and never stagnant. They are the type who keep defending everything without taking time to even study their Bibles.

I weep when their prophets give messages and they don't even have understanding of the Bible. It's really sad. Many celebrate the gift than the Giver.

They just pick from the Bible without reading in its completeness to understand what the Bible truly says.

May God help the body of Christ

otipoju:
Why do you guys avoid bible talk.

I asked you a very simple question to gauge that you even know what you are talking about.

When you say Old Testament and New Testament

What does it mean to you....just gave me a paragraph or two in your own words of what those terms mean to you.

What exactly is the Truth?

You dont quote scripture and run away...come and discuss bible with a Celestian you dey run.

I don't avoid Bible talk. I delight in revealing God's own truth alone. I know what I talk about it is you just defending what you have not taken time to ask questions on.

Study your Bible and not just what you were told. Be like the Berean Christians. Bible recognised them because it has a lesson for us. Ask the Holy spirit to guide you as this is very important to interpret right. He can speak directly to you.

NO CHURCH WILL TAKE YOU TO HEAVEN INCLUDING IJO MIMO.

otipoju:
How is it that in the book of Revelation when John was shown a vision of the heavens and the end of the ages, as he was imprisoned on the island of Patmos...The altar IS there. Incense burning IS there. Bowing heads down in worship IS there. The redeemed dressed in white robes IS there.
Because what was shown to Moses to copy centuries before Jesus Christ was born on earth is the same place John was shown in the beginning.

As it was in the beginning , it is now and ever shall be.

Those things exist independent of the testaments/covenants God entered into with the Israelites on the mountain and the new testament he entered into with believers in the salvific work of Christ by his death and resurrection.

Moses copied what was he was shown in heaven. The alter of God existed before God entered into the old mosaic covenant with the Israelites, it was existing while he made the new covenant with those who would believe in christ and forever continues to exist even after the new covenant

It is independent of it.

A lot of you say things you guys say are what you either half understand or dont even have a clue about.

What exactly do you mean when you say you worship God? What exactly is a practice? It means something you do repeatedly isnt it? Now Jesus broke bread and told his disciples to do it in memory of him...the continued observance of this act by Christian's is it not a religious practice where God is worshipped?

Now if worship and religious practices are inseparable how then can you say God wants you to worship him and not carry out religious practices.?

What if I tell you Jesus Christ had long been visiting planet earth and helping the Israelites in battle, commanding the spiritual army long before the appointed time for him to be born in a manger as a child
Read Joshua chapter 5 for this info. We know it was him because Angel's do not accept the worship from man as evidenced by bowing of heads down to the ground in (Revelation 19:10 and 22:8–9).

May I let you know that I understand Cele so much and I was once a member when Cele was truly Cele without any of these adulterations coming in. So, I learned so much back then as I was so much devoted.

Thank God you mentioned the redeemed (saints) dressed in white robes. Have ALL CELE MEMBERS attained that status? Or are they operating in heaven here on earth? Remember, it is for everyone saved by grace on the last day and not an instruction to observe here on earth as John would have stated this in the book of Revelation.

Christianity is never a religion in the first place.

In the comment you highlighted, did you read Hebrews 8:1-13. If you read there, did you see where Christ replaced the OLD TABERNACLE and became MINISTER OF THE SANCTUARY, AND OF THE TRUE TABERNACLE? Then, read also how he cancelled the Tabernacle as designed by Moses with specifications given to Him by God in verse 5-8. You will see that God cancelled everything through CHRIST.

As regards the book of Revelations and Candlestick. You should understand that revelations come with right interpretations and understanding. There was nowhere God gave instructions to John who saw the revelation to return to earth and start lighting candles. You should understand that the 7 Candle stick was needed to pass the message about the seven churches and also seven spirits of God as regards the lamp. Same also the incense, it was to bring to one's attention the fact that the prayers of the righteous go before God. Nowhere again would you see emphasis placed on candle and incense or instruction given to carry out on earth after Christ death.

Remember again, it was a revelation and revelation comes with a deeper meaning and not taken literally. Also, John could only write this experience the best way he can.

See how he ended the experience with Revelation 22:5.

otipoju:
This is not true. Last boat yes not the only boat.

SBJ Oschoffa the Pastor/ Founder in a recorded interview when asked this question said that all denominations are like schools that prepare candidates for general exams. All candidates may attend different schools but will sit for the same exam.

Well, I didn't tell you what I don't know. I am confident of what I typed because I was once a member and I know this when they start with 'you will return back to cele' as this is the only church that saves and not the 'amen' Church. Please, don't come here to appear holy

otipoju:
This is an open forum bring up your concerns and let us thrash them out here. I dont know what your brother saw but I know it can never be as savage as the Redeemed Pastor that impregnated a young female church member and then hired Assassins to kill her right there on the church premises.

1. Have you ever bothered to ask why the name of Angel Michael is called during prayers. Do you know the biblical basis for that. If yes, does it not make perfect sense to you especially if you remember that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities and rulers of darkness. Also how or what does the Kingdom of God look like in terms of administration? Is Angel Michael ever worshipped or praised in Celestial?

Did I hear you say Cele beliefs are biblical but they are unchristian...how contradictory?

2. Let me hold a mirror to you so that you see yourself. I dont know if you are male or female or wether you are married or not but the question still applies have you ever had premarital sex severally ? I am sure the answer is YES. Is that action biblical and Christian like. Definetely NO...so humble yourself abeg and stop sounding like you have a ench beside God where you sit day and night.

Hello, there is no Biblical basis for calling Angel Michael. Michael is a ministering angel to we humans. Bible even confirmed that we shall judge the Angels. How come an Angel to be judged is taken so special in prayers? Asides this, there is no other name given to us which we must pray with except the name of Christ. The New Testament kept emphasising this truth that only Christ name alone shall we pray with because He alone came to reconcile us back to God. Angel Michael did nothing.

Yes, he is right by saying Cele beliefs might be in the Bible but they do not hold as one to be practiced after Christ paid it all with His flesh and blood on Calvary.

Read your Bible you will understand better. Knowledge is progressive and not stagnant.

When we read the Bible and genuinely call on the Holy spirit for interpretation, we will understand better.

benji93:
If you have something else to do, i implore you do go and do it. I have gone back and forth with that guy, and i hope he's seeing this. His opinions lack depth. He claims he's backed his opinion that candles cannot be part of the new covenant but he's not done so. I mean they could tell you the Pope wasn't doing hte will of God, or the Catholic church no longer or never enforced the will of God. Once you exchange a couple of posts, you may want to get on with osmething more useful, once you realize the dent in their argument. It's sometimes frustrating that there are lots of holes in someone's argument but they refuse to realize it. They keep bringing up passages that do not directly address the point, and claim it implies it. For someone that accuses me of using reasoning, i am quite dissapointed he doesn't realize that's exactly what he's doing.

Ki Olu ijo mimo kowa Moo se. All the best.

I hope you read my comment to his post and saw that I never argued with him.

What you just did is the act of manipulation to gain support to your side. You based your argument on practices you believe in and reasoning on the subject matter without trying to dig deep.

If you must know, I spent over 12 years in Cele and this was during the times, Rev. Bada was alive. He even attended the church I once attended. So, you know that I was a member of Cele when the practice was sincere and even deep back then and not that I am typing just anyhow.

I had to dig deep into the word of God to have more insight as to things and the same Holyspirit you keep mentioning without any Biblical backup showed me things that were wrong.

I have shown you the Bible Hebrews 8:1-13.

Every instruction as to the use of Candle and incense in the tabernacle came to Moses from God but Hebrew 8 then came back to the same details given to Moses as to tabernacle that a new tabernacle better than the old has come to stay and also to put an end to the old.

No more priest rendering these services anymore as we now have a Higher Priest.

You don't seem to understand the Bible because if you do, you will understand that knowledge is progressive and never stagnant.

The more we get closer to God, the better we get insight to what God wants us to know.

I am not in anyway perfect but be open to change. Direct access to God was what Christ perfected for us by abolishing all old testament practices and tabernacle experiences.

Do take time to read the Bible than stick to old knowledge and allow the Holy spirit to give you personal insight. Should I say that God can speak with you directly too so you understand right from wrong.

Till you give room for the Holyspirit before you learn more and know more.

I am not a preacher of denomination as none of these exist in Heaven and I am neither a supporter of one G. O or Man of God, I base all on WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY? I go back to search the scripture to understand God's mind.

God is looking for true worshippers and not practices. So, get it right when I make known certain things as we just need to be heavenly conscious and not being a supporter of one practice or the other even when it's root is gone.

Ijo mimo will never take us to heaven, neither ANY OTHER CHURCH here on earth. Only Christ and being His disciple will take us to heaven and of course, grace applies.

May the grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ be with us all.

benji93:
Your opinions are devoid of depth. You keep referring to the fact that Christ ended some practices but you refuse to mention which practices and ofcouse support them with scripture, which is quite funny,cos the so called "pentecostal Churches" in Nigeran terms claim they know a lot about the Bible. You have been far from convincing. I don't want to continue this cos you have been superficial at best. But that's ok. To each his own. I'll leave it at that. And i pray that the spirit of God guides us.

I have based every of my arguments on the Bible. Letting you know that Candle, burning of incense are the practices of the old with the Priest doing this (lighting the candle and burning of incense at tabernacle). Christ death put an end to this practice

Read Hebrew 8:1-7. Did you see that part of Moses being given instruction on the details of the tabernacle (which includes candle and incense)? Did you read of how a new promise came through Christ? Did you then connect them all with Verse 13 which says all are ready to vanish?

Did you see verse 2 where Christ BECAME OUR MINISTER OF THE SANCTUARY AND OF THE TRUE TABERNACLE?

I speak depth but you speak reasoning. You need to sit with your Bible to understand what God demands from us now especially when we now have the Holy spirit in full operation.

I have just pointed out the Bible to you. Please, don't come back with reasoning but back up your position with Bible and how Candle and Incense must continue including the miraculous cross insertion in tiny bottles or narrow neck containers. Please, speak from the Bible not reasoning.

benji93:
I could say your opinion is based on your thougts and reasoning as well. Hebrew 8 vs 7 says if there had been nothing wrong with the first covenant, there would have been a new one. The question is the first covenant was wrong with respect to what? Verse 8 says, but God found fault with the people, so humans are part of the reason. The laws were made for us. Vs 13 says by calling the new covenant new, he has made tho old obsolete. Obsolete doesn't mean wrong. It means you are no longer bound to it.
And yes there are many things that became obsolete when the new covenant came. The question is which. In your previous post you mentioned that candles were part of them and i say that's erroneous. That's not the position of the Bible. I would appreciate it if you can provided a passage that say's it's one of it.

You keep regurgitating the same things. I clearly now understand what the problem is. We are definitely not on the same page with regards to what has been corrected. I state in all confidence that there was no correction with respect to the use of candles as done by the Isrealites. I would like you to provide a passage that says the use of candlessticks e.t.c. Note that i am definitely not talking about animal sacrifice, cos it's True the new covenant renders that Obsolete. You seem you think you know a lot, but that depth is lacking, honestly. And you are using words inapproiately. You say you should not go against, but it can only be said that you have gone against a principle if the principles entails don't do something and you do it or it says definitively do something and you refuse to do it. If the Bible doesn't talk about an issue, it's within your discretion and in accordance to the holy spirit.

Hmmm.... You bring in grammars just to uphold reasoning and not making this Bible based.

Thank God you mentioned Hebrew 8:13. Did you read this wholly or just selected what suits you?

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Now, can you see the conclusion to verse 13?

The Holy spirit does not bring to practice what has been corrected. It was a law binding on them but Grace replaced this. No more priest leading us to Christ (through the use of incense and candles as spelt out in the Old) but we all having direct access to God.

If the Bible doesn't talk about an issue, it is never in your discretion to bring it up.

Zoey95:
Christian association of Nigeria were critiszing the church and the poor was invited, telling the pope that CCC is a devils church and it's fetish just like every other person are saying it. but for the Glory of God to shine when the Pope came and met Papa Oschoffa in TBS the Pope stood up from his sit. this to the amazement of CAN.

all am just pointing out is CCC has been critisize since from the birth of the church but instead of it to go down it keeps on growing.

Okay

babaolofin:
Research and analysis are done to obtain results based on set criteria and not for online rantings or irrational discussion.

Those online know who is right. A General Overseer of a very big Pentecostal Church once directed a member to return a very big offering used as Thanksgiving Offering to a Celestial Church Prophet/Shepherd where such miracle was received. About two weeks ago, I was opportuned to meet an old man who is a Senior Prophet who followed the Prophet to see the GO of this very big Pentecostal Church on invitation. What transpired baffled me.
Some of the unbelievable testimonies you hear are actually after several prophetic works from the Celestial Church. Amen, I received it don't just work like that for some issues.

In Nigeria today, despite division and factions that came out of Celestial Church, if the main Celestial Church have projects running to many billions of Naira, there are several people - Captains of Industries, politicians and other people in different sectors of economy that will foot the bill. These people are not seen publicly with Celestial Church, but they are patrons of the Church.

I close my case.

This does not in anyway confirm anything. Even Ifa gatherings, egungun festivals are sponsored by big politicians and personalities in the society. Same way they are patrons of Ifa and egungun too

Zoey95:
let me tell you a little story that led to CCC been part of CAN. some years back in the late 70's they were critics that celestial wasn't a church of Christ they were fetish this and that, then Pope came all the way from rome, and demanded to see Pastor founder SBJ Oschoffa, then they set an open air crusade at TBS onikan, Lagos at the arrival of the Pastor founder Pope stood up from where he was sitted and approached papa Oschoffa to the amazement of the CAN officials and embraced him and greeted him and He said in his words This is a true man of God with the mandate of Holy spirit. then the song came up "if the whole world rise against us, they must bow before the Lord, ye the children of celestial church rise and praise the Lord. halleluyah is our song, halleluyah is in our worship. if the whole world likes it or not they will bow before the lord.

this I say the more you criticize the body of Christ and it's church the more it's wax stronger in spirit and in strength. if you doubt come to Imeko- Ogun state and see for yourself. feel free to bash me. IDC.... Halleluyah o!!!!

So because Pope rose up mean what?

Kindly explain further

benji93:
You don't seem to udnerstand what contradiction means. I implore you to bring up anything that CCC does in which case the Bible says don't do it. Now if you know any then that's a contradiction. We could therefore discuss what you think is contradictory regarding this. Note i am not referring to issues the Bible didn't resolve. And it's not for you to say that the Apostles would have mentioned them. It has to be revealed to you for you to mention it. The New testament was written by different people. Some where historical, as in the Gospels- in relation to the teachings of Jusus, and others were with respect to how a christian should live their lives. Why were there different apostles and prophets? I mean i could say only one prohet is needed. To different Eras and people are different issues in the Church, and the apostles as directed therefore laid emphasis on resolving these issues. It's erroneous to say the Apostles should have mentioned it. In fact perhaps there were, but the Apostles didn't deem them ungodly, and so didn't mention them. How about that? If the bible instructs me to do something or not do something and i don't do it or do it respectively, that's a problem and ungodly.

When the finished works of Christ put an end to practices in the old, are you saying that His Holyspirit will teach otherwise?

Please, read your Bible as you are operating based on reasoning. You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.

otipoju:
First thing I want to ask you is this.

What exactly is the Old Testament and what is the New Testament. What do they mean to you?

Let's start from this basic and educate ourselves as we proceed.

You don't need to ask. The Bible has everything about the Old and the New.

Did you read the Bible verse I typed? Read that and do more research? Ask questions when reading the Bible and the Holy spirit will guide you on the truth.

benji93:
I am sorry, but it's an error to say there were errors in the old testament. It's akin to saying God wasn't in his right senses when he established those laws. Although i certainly believe that the rules that apply may change from time to time, which is usually a function of humans and the perpetual love of God for us- We are addicted to flouting rules laid down. This is confirmed by John 3 vs 16. Now your last sentence is a serious error as well. You mentioned that the death of christ put an end to the lighting of the candles. We know that Christ died for the atonement of our sins, so it means anything that was previously done by the Isrealites for the atonement such as animal sacrifice is redundant.This doesn't even mean it's wrong to do it, but it means you are no longer bound to it. So the question is were the lighting of candles part of atonement? The answer is No. You definitely need to read your bible well. The lighting of candles was particularly part of worship. I would say though that the fact that the Isrealites did certain things does not mean we should do them. It was given to them as part of their covenant with God. So if you apply them you may not receive the blessings promised. However if the holy spirit directs you to incorporate so so so and so into your worship as part of a covenant which is the case in CCC, then as a member of that fold you must do it to reap the blessings thereof. And God in his infinte wisdom can reenact whatever rule, however he pleases in whichever dispensation. His thoughts are not our thoughts neither his ways our ways. God chose Abraham, and subsequently his decendants. Does it mean Abraham was the only one who worshipped God? We may never know cos there was no such discussion, unless the holy spirit reveals it. God does whatever pleases him. You can argue from today to tomorrow on what you think the bible is saying, and you are definitely within your rights to argue it, i nwhich case you may be partially incorrect. It's what you know. God uses people differently. He may use one one way, and another a different way. You all seem to think there's a well defined template for christians. No there isn't. There are definitely certain basic principles that a christian must abide by. And especially, if the Bible instructs you not to do something then you mustn't do it. The Bible is silent on some matters. But the fact that something wasn't mentioned in the bible doesn't mean it's wrong. So the statement that the Bible doesn't say you can do something doesn't mean it's wrong. That's why the holy spirit is important to our existense. If you are faced with issues not resolved definitivley in the bible seek the direction of the holyspirit. If the Spirit of God directs some people to worship in a certain way, so be it. May the spirit of God guide us.

You are speaking by your thoughts and reasoning matters based on just human reasoning but I spoke what God's word says.

Try read the Bible to understand what the Bible says for proper and better understanding of the position of the Bible.

Please, read Hebrews 8:7 to have a better understanding.

So, can you see that what you typed does not hold anything or reasoning?

Understand that there are many things to go with the Old when the new came into operation.

God uses people differently but does not go against what the Bible clearly has corrected. Holyspirit does not contradict the word of God rather He gives more understanding as to God's word.

Please, read your Bible well as you seem to operate on reasoning. When you dig deep into what God's word says you will have a better understanding.

I have not told you anything outside God's word.

blackboy2star:
My stand is Candle and Incense were mentioned in the bible and was never told is a bad thing to use...
According to the founder, that was what he was told to use and practice... IT can become a practice if you're told to practice it...
Jesus can operate in different ways using different means that mankind can't phantom... He used clay and saliva, He can instruct me to use snail saliva and mud also, does that make it occultic.

Candle and Incense were mentioned in the Old Testament and it ended with the Old.

Jesus never used snail and it becomes occultic if healing is gotten through animals. Christ alone is the solution