₦airaland Forum

Henry240:
My argument follows the legitimate concerns raised by Agaugust on the quality of the exercise at Amani II.


In terms of actual operations would African countries such as Nigeria learn anything new, i highly doubt that. However in terms of cohesion with other partner nations from other African Blocs, sure. The exercise provides us the opportunity to work with the South-Africans, Angolans, Namibians, Algerians, Ugandans, Kenyans et al.


The essence of Amani Africa is to better prepare African forces to face any challenge they would require military force and to respond to these challenges in the shortest possible time.


I do not feel in practical African combat scenarios that we would require............. infact given the sort of conflicts we have faced over the past 15 years, no scenario would play out like the exercise demonstration at the end of Amani II. Mali, N.E Nigeria insurgency, the Insurgency in Egypt sinai, Uganda, Somalia insurgency, not even against M23.

You hold exercises like that if there is an actual threat of "little green men". Sure the demonstration is good for the cameras and threads like this, but in actual real african combat I doubt it.

I think we should tailor our exercises to deal with the threats we face. I don't think Amani Africa II delivers on operational requirements, what it actually delivers on is with "interoperability" between partner nations.


Amani Africa should be a yearly exercise.

which is exactly what we have been saying

Your job is to train your men how to fight
Amani's role is to train them to fight together

And yes, considering that Nigeria does not conduct training operations of this size, I would say your men learnt allot (like how to use Chaka).

And yes, combat would play out like that - unless you never expect to ever attack the enemy ever.

iblawi:
Nigerian companies are really doing well even if they don't make noise?
We are proud to be Nigerians

posting a picture of a jet you retired?

what did you build for it?

iblawi:
I believe this guy has proved to you that most of your technology is from Europe and not what you people claim. If Europeans bought SA companies it means they are ready to make their money and name grow and they are ready to put in what ever technology it takes to achieve their aim.

The questions you should ask yourself are:

what were these companies producing before the white bought them over?

What were they exporting before European companies bought them?

How well were these companies known before they were bought?

Which country have they ever exported any thing to before the companies were bought?

Just sit down and ask yourself questions before you claim anything as yours.

They were producing what they produce now

No because of embargoes

Very well - that is why they got bought

Plenty, consult SIPRI

Simple answers

iblawi:
Most of them moved to sambisa when the fight became serious.

My point exactly (apologies for editing your post - i did take the time to read it all).

No one is saying that there is no urban combat happening

What we are saying is:

1. The MAJORITY of the combat is not urban combat
2. Urban combat is small-unit (company at biggest) orientated, its not suitable for training a BATTALION of men*

*take a look at the combat in syria, you dont see whole brigades moving around conducting operations - you see a couple dozen men, maybe some armor in support running around, while a couple of blocks away another disjointed group of men try do their own thing.

If you are focusing on COHESION and MANEUVER urban training is pointless because urban warfare is known percisely for: its lack of cohesion and maneuver

Henry240:
The Fightings in Kidal, Timbucktu, Gao and other Malian cities were what exactly?


Most of the engagements the Nigerian military has had with insurgents have been FIBUA and in close quarters, street-level figthings in urban areas and villages.

I'm really not in the mood to engage you in something you are clearly ignorant of.

As for the un-necessary abuse & gang-up on Agaugust, I find it rather unfortunate. Agaugust made important...... very important intelligent observations.

African militaries currently engaged in operations are not fighting an enemy in wide open fields, the engagements have all been street-level. We do not face a "Russia style" threat, I don't see why the training exercise would mirror that of an enemy you face in wide open fields.


Amani Africa II is in response to the lackluster deployment of African troops to Mali. The enemy in Mali fought in built up areas. We as Africans should learn to do things right, especially in the first instance, as we do not have the money or resources to afford making a mistake.

Henry120

You quite obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

1. FIBUA is small unit tactics - responsibility is on donor nations to ensure that they are prepared for that
2. Terrain is irrelevant the idea is to see whether the Brigade can co-ordinate multi-faceted combat operations- responsibility is on donor nations to ensure that their men are prepped to fight in the terrain type.

What is the point of an exercise based on doctrine and deployment if you are going to break it down to small unit tactics in FIBUA environments?

Onus is on donor nations to make sure the men can fight
Onus is on AU to ensure that the men can fight together

South Africa has multiple urban warfare training facilities, if the PROFESSIONAL SOLDIERS thought that FIBUA was relevant, exercises would have been conducted there.

Clearly, it was not relevant

Henry240:
So Bama, Gwoza, Banki, Maiduguiri, Gombe city, Potiskum, Madagali, Damaturu, Mafa, Dikwa, Gambarou, Ngala, et al are all in Sambisa forest?


The reason i don't want to engage with you South-Africans, and especially on this topic is because, you people "make comments without sense". "Talk without sense".

lol, perhapse you should have a word about your man augustus about "comments without sense"

And fyi, the majority of the fighting you boys have been doing is in the bush

rugged7:
"Insufferable oaf"...
You are not the only one who knows how to abuse people.
This thread is not for abuse but yet you south africans keep spamming this thread with abuse.
You know which thread u can take all the abuse to...
It is just embarrassing watching you act like kids
u keep on insulting people on this thread for no just cause
Most people come here to learn and read and see interesting write-ups, pix and videos without all this abuse.
If you know u cannot abide by that, why not just STOP posting here
CEASE AND DESIST

Read through the forum and see whom it was who started with the thinly veiled insults

anyway, now that I am done with that insufferable oaf

Time for some South African military humor, courtosy of our man John Dovey (I found him on youtube)!

Some Reservist mortar crews have some difficulty during training....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw-O_xbW6os

agaugust:

South African defense industry minus Thales minus Rheinmetall minus BAE = Rifle and MRAP industry
.

You mean minus the companies that were so desperate for South African tech and expertise that they purchased South African companies?

We own BAE now, by the way.

So without those companies we dont build drones, artillery, SAM's, ATGM's, AAMs, IFV's, AFV's, MRLS?

agaugust:
[s]Nigeria has a better indigenous defence industry, we don`t claim European products as our own like you Southies fraudulently do.

DICON builds our infantry hardware, PROFORCE builds armoured vehicles and armoured gunboats, BADEH AEROSPACE builds world class drones for us, Nigerian army engineers build our armoured vehicles, Nigerian air force engineers build our jet fighter rocket munitions and robots, Nigerian air force engineers are developing our light aircraft, Nigerian army engineers build our Spy Balloons....something South African indigenous defence industry has not achieved as you still wait for an European company to open branch in your country to do that for you.

Nigerian defence industry is proudly Nigerian. South African defence industry is proudly European owned[/s]
.

hahahahaha

Are you being serious?

This is a new level of mental gymnastics.

But hey, its the same old argument you have been making "Its ok that we are sh1t, because we are 100% Nigerian sh1t"

And FYI - those European companies PURCHASED EXISTING SOUTH AFRICAN COMPANIES.

You are inferior, deal with it

agaugust:
MRAP is easy to build, even Namibia builds MRAP.

Nigeria is building our own MRAP at Proforce industries.....see....

Its easy to build?

We have been building them since the 1970's... why today 2015 do you not have one yet?

Guys I just cant even.

I just cant even deal with this guy.

agaugust:
This thread is NOT a forum for projecting national pride at the expense of Africa`s progress.

Carry your argument and calls for endless citations to another thread.

I have raised my objections about AMANI and it`s for Africa to do better next time, mediocrity does not bring greatness.
.

1. Yes, this is not a forum for projecting national pride - YOU ARE THE ONE THAT BROUGHT NATIONALITY INTO IT
2. Your objections are speculation based on a PRESS DEMONSTRATION and thus are invalid

Do you know the point of the exercise? Do you know how long it was and what sub-exercises were performed? No you do not, as usual you shoot your mouth off without having any idea what you are talking about.

Dont come here, throw this forum into turmoil, spew mindless opinion, bring nationality into it and then try to take the moral high ground.

agaugust:
Nope chief, watch this video....how did Nigeria alone fund the cost of different battle thearters for training those thousands of troops in that video....open desert, mountains, and urban city is simulated with prefab houses, buildings, walls, windows, rooms, etc. How did Nigeria alone fund all these?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDkybigIskw

Responsibility rests with the host of an exercise to provide relevant battle scenarios and theatres. South Africa did not want to spend money, they are waiting for AU to pay for everything, yet they want to be the host.

What is worth doing is worth doing well, AMANI is a waste of time for armies that have advanced beyond that low level like Angola, Uganda, Kenya, Nigeria.

Bros, I am complaining because Africa has a traditional habit of not doing things right and feeling good about it.

Your video shows small squad basic training - which is YOUR responsibility. AMANI Africa is not to teach soldiers how to fight we expect them to allready know that - The exercise is to teach people how to fight with others from different nations who use different equipment and doctrine.

AMANI was a brigade sized operation focused on maneuver and formation of a common doctrine.

Are you saying that small squad tactics are more complex than Brigade-Sized maneuvers?

Are you saying co-ordinating Arty/Armor/light inf/Moto Inf/Fast-Jet/CAS/CASEVAC/CSAR in combined arms air-land battle commanded over a battle-net composed of men who speak ~15 different languages and who follow ~15 different doctrines managed by a combat-management system no one else has and of a complexity that other African countries are not use to etc not as complex as 10 or so guys clearing a house?

Grow up, its obvious that (like with the Thales equipment) you simply dont like it because it happened in South Africa and because the demonstration involved mainly South African units.

Finally, can I also remind you that our last major exercise Young Eagle was one of the most complex exercises conducted in Sub-Saharan Africa... and yet you imply we are low level?

Also, I cannot emphasis this enough: [size=15pt]YOU ARE BASING YOUR OPINION ON A PRESS DEMONSTRATION [/size]

agaugust:
[s]Nope, the European defense companies opened foreign branches in South Africa and produce European weapons on your soil, they call the products local South African names to colour and mask them as South African made so that your BEE obsessed ANC government can buy those weapons for SANDF and deceive yourselves and the outside world that the products are proudly South African....but they are 100% European technology.

Same thing happens with the claims, fake claims that South Africa produces Toyota, Nissan, BMW[/s]

Are you being serious?

This is your argument?

Not even worth responding to. New levels of patheticness reached in an attempt to mask the failures of Nigeria to develop an indigenous defence industry

agaugust:
[s]Most of DENEL production is Rifles and MRAPs...LOL...DICON Nigeria produces rifles too, and NA Engrs produce APC, Proforce building our MRAP.

So where is all your so called indegenous South African Hi-Tech stuff? Plenty of European owned equipment, radars, advanced ammunition, electronics and optronics, Brazilian missile technology transfer, Finland's Badger IFV tech transfer....

90% of South African defence industry is OWNED by EUROPEAN COMPANIES ! Fact !!!

South African claims of owning advanced defence industry is FAKE ![/s]
.

Citations please

agaugust:

Europeans OWN 90% your over-hyped South African defence industry....Southies build almost NOTHING !

.

Where does it say that they own 90% of it?

Where?

agaugust:
SA defence industry is mostly MRAP business. Nothing special.

Something not even Nigeria can manage to do

agaugust:
Training rounds get fired on troops and man marker bullets stick to your body and shows you got hit in battle.

Most of those armies have had live ammunition fired at them like Uganda, Kenya, Angola, Nigeria, etc. It's SANDF that should go do live ammo firing if they don't have the experience, please NO INSULT INTENDED. No worthy army finds it new to see live ammo fired around them.

Show us evidence of AMANI exercise done in urban setting, please stop speculating on what you cannot confirm.

Don't begin to fabricate imaginary stories of how AMANI has special training like US Navy SEALS just that they did not show us....dude, they did nothing like that level in AMANI.

Just complaining that AMANI is a poor show.....how does that type of training help an AU force facing a Black Hawk down battle scenarion in the battle of Mogadishu Somalia? That is what I am complaining about.

1. Citation needed for training rounds

2. Who will provide man marker equipment? Just doing a live-fire exercises is intense enough, I dont think you realize how much pressure those men are under.

2. Citations for live fire-combined arms exercises held by other nations.

3. Show us that AMANI did not have an urban element, please stop speculating on what you cannot confirm

4. Show us that AMANI did not do high level training like navy seals, please stop speculating on what you cannot confirm

You are complaining because your anti-RSA BIAS is showing again. You are basing your entire opinion on a DEMONSTRATION HELD FOR THE PRESS. And you have no idea what the exercise is comprised of - so you are speculating.

agaugust:
My point exactly, Africa should learn to do things right the first time and stop the habit of faltering 5 times before using basic sense and thinking.

All armies should have shipped in their own equipment for AMANI, the host should have provided a simulated sub urban battle scenario as it happens in today's African conflicts, the AU force is not going to intervene in wide open barren land desert style Arab-Israeli war of 1973.

What is worth doing is worth doing well. When you train for war, make it look real.

So you would prefer if we held the live fire exercise in one of our towns or cities?

Also, Somalia/S.Sudan/Mali/Libya all prove you to be wrong

agaugust:
[s]DRC war was an easy UN intervention against a dead M23 force that was already crippled by UN cutting off their logistics and military support.

When you face Boko Haram, El-Shabab, ISIS, you will see why 5 national armies will battle terrorists for 5 years and still not win. Go ask NATO in Afghanistan and Iraq.[/s]

And now you are just sprouting B.S

agaugust:
Is Eben part of today's SANDF ? He was trained by old apartheid SADF not current SANDF.

He was not the only one who trained Nigerians, he trained about 120 men of 72 mobile strike force. Russia and Pakistan trained 5,000 NA men who led the final offensive and were very effective, see their photos all over this thread, just scroll a few pages back and see the Russian Nigerians !

Israeli PMC trained large battalions, so Eben did only a very tiny fraction of training Nigerians.

Video : Israeli Nirtal Ltd PMC training Nigerian SF in North East war zone...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDkybigIskw

Don't personalize the matter, I believe AU did not do a good training worth the effort in South Africa, AU problem, but the host should have provided an adequate battle theatre that reflects current African needs.....or are they only going to intervene in open land desert wars?

1. SANDF trains exactly like the SADF

2. O really? That is your problem? So we should have just terraformed the biggest and most advanced training facility in Africa so that it more adequatly represents what you want?

agaugust:
A united force should blend, that is interoperability, they lack such, only SANDF equipment was used to train 90%. You don't go to war with equipment you do not have or own, or train with at home.

Mainly SANDF equipment was used for the DEMONSTRATION

agaugust:
90% of equipment used were SANDF owned, you had about 8 other armies carrying only rifles about, what type of multinational force training is that? Training with equipment that you do not own and will not use in war. Waste of time. Each army should have shipped it's own vehicle by sea.

When that force goes into real conflict, they will be total strangers to each other in terms of equipment inter-operability.

Again, that was a DEMONSTRATION by a small section of the totall forces.

Did that look like 5000 men to you? Did it?

Dude, omg, I have no words.

agaugust:
Nothing special happened beyond what we saw.

Battle theatre is 'wrong' based on current African conflict environments.

Armies were using equipment they do not own and will not use in real conflict, or will Nigerian army drive SANDF Rooikat to war ?

ARE YOU RETARD.ED?

1. Which facilities in Africa are available and in the "right" environment?

2. We used our OWN equipment, each nation used the equipment THEY provided.

Those were South Africans in South African Rooikatsm what the fvck are you even talking about?

Dude, you are humiliating yourself, please stop

agaugust:
Emotions and rhetoric do not defeat tactical military facts.

Yes there are training mortar rounds and training cannon rounds if you did not know. They get fired on troops and harm nobody, non-lethal rounds for combat training.

I was not condemning anybody, just not happy that this is all Africa could do, how will that type of training help in a real El-Shabbab, Boko Haram or Seleka attack on an urban city with 100,000 civilians in the war theatre at 12 midnight in total darkness?

That is the type of conflict Africa is facing today, not the type of scenario painted in that exercise, most of what they did there is just a repeat of basic military academy training for new recruits. Most armies that went there gained next to nothing after travelling 2,000 km from home.

How many African conflicts today are happening in a wide open empty dry land, and require AU intervention force?

The battle theatre provided by South Africa is grossly inadequate in terms of today's African conflict realities.

1. No there are not "training mortar and cannon rounds"

2. WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT IT BEING A DEMONSTRATION

Who else could provide a battle space like Lohotla? Only we have such facilities on the continent.

Yet again your anti-South African bias is showing

agaugust:
The vehicle and equipment used in the exercise were 90% SANDF stuff. How does a foreign officer control the show? The host army has it's limits of capability and what it is willing to do as combat drills. You don't impose your will on another country's army, what could the Nigerian director do with an army he does not own?

Go back to the older pages of this thread and see that style of training exercise done at AMANI.....it is 100% SANDF style and format of training....lots of coloured smoke, slow pace vehicular movement, firing guns and shells into on wide open empty land space where there is no simulated enemy, assault course obstacles or simulated civilian presence as in a sub urban environment. Nigerian, Ugandan, Kenyan army do not train like that. Nigerian director, but he is compelled to act out a 100% South African style written training script.

I just believe Africa should do better, that training will not win them a tough war like facing ISIS, Seleka, Boko Haram or El-Shabab.

Who does not know how artillery works? SANDF you mean? They have not fired artillery in combat since 20 years ago.

- 5000 personnel
- Sandf contributes 1500
- "mainly SANDF"

LOL

1. Colored smoke is something you clearly didnt think of and is an exellent way of controlling the battlefeild.
Red = SHOOT HERE
Green = DONT FVCKING SHOOT here

2. Slow pace of vehicle movement is because of this thing called vehicle cohesion, one stops to cover while the other advances.

3. Plenty of simulated enemy - or did you miss the trenches/strongpoints as well as tragets?

4. Nigerian, Ugandan, Kenyan army do not conduct major exercises at all.

5. Nigerian director directed the exercise as planned by the AU and himself.

That type of training is how we defeated 60 000 Cubans and 120 000 Angolans in every single battle we fought.

agaugust:

Europeans OWN 90% your over-hyped South African defence industry....Southies build almost NOTHING !

.

Rheinmetall Denel Munition (Pty) Ltd (RDM) is jointly owned by Rheinmetall Waffe Munition GmbH (51%) of Germany and Denel (Pty) Ltd. South Africa.
http://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/company/divisions_and_subsidiaries/rheinmetall_denel_munition/index.php

We build nothing? What then did Rheinmetall then buy?

They bought nothing?

Again, pathetic attempt to get us to forget that Nigeria has LITERALLY BUILT NOTHING

Msauza:
Stop misleading people with your propaganda.

All SA based defence industries which have partly or dominating shares of European partnership have all started as South African companies. Later as times go on, large European defence cooperates started showing interests in those companies and ended up either buying 51% or 60% shares of such companies. Examples of such partnership will follow.

Augubug does not understand what globalization is.

He does not understand that we have products that Europeans know will make them money.

He does not understand that they want to make money selling them.

augubug

you should probably go defend yourself in the other forum

your got ra.ped

agaugust:
No single citation.....into the garbage bin it goes.....you posted rubbish
.

1. Paramount group sale to Nigerian customer
http://www.paramountgroup.biz/en/home/21-news-home/643-phakisa-floats-hope-for-shipyards-bdlive.html

2. Which of their ATGMs is as advanced as ours?

3. Picture

4. Cobra HMD is mainly a product of Carl Zeiss South Africa (formerly a Denel Division)
http://www.southafrica.info/business/investing/denel-150307.htm#.VkdXTfkrLcc

5. Korean contract is in final stage
http://www.janes.com/article/50940/denel-south-korea-in-talks-to-integrate-al-tariq-bomb-kit-on-fa-50s

agaugust:
[size=13pt] [s]Since all you South Africans are too dull to interpret your own country's business law, we Nigerians did it for you yesterday.

South African over-hyped, so called 'advanced defense industry' is 90% European owned companies exporting technical manpower, hardware, software, spare parts, factory production machinery, engineers, technicians, etc massively into South Africa into companies that have been formed as South African based foreign branches, which South African BEE law compels to sell shares to black Southie block-headed dullards and change the company names to include South Africa's name.

The ANC Southie law forces this share sales as a condition for government patronage and contracts, otherwise SANDF will NOT buy anything from those European companies and their businesses will collapse and die.

That law allows the Europeans to control the technology and manufacturing, while South Africa's incompetent BEE managers and directors control administration with their shareholdings.

http://www.uhy.com/wp-content/uploads/Doing-Business-in-South-Africa.pdf

European owners in the head offices of the parent companies in Europe still have the power to pull out of South Africa if they wish, then the so called defence industry of South Africa will collpase and be reduced to mere MRAP manufacturing majorly.

In accounting and finance, it is what we call foreign subsidiary with majority or minority shareholding interest.

Now Exposed : South African defence industry is 90% European companies foreign branches ! [/s] [/size]

https://d386vep05x5edh.cloudfront.net/product_images/1156/1156899_500px_jpg/thales_s_a_france_company_reports.jpg
https://www.adsadvance.co.uk/media/images/2013/Thales%20125th%20UK%20PM%20lasgow%204%20April%202013.jpg

.

[size=15pt]It does not say that anywhere in the link you have posted

Yet again you are trying (pathetically) to make excuses for why YOUR country has a FAILURE of a defence industry

You are basically saying:
1. European companies open branches in South Africa at huge cost
2. Sell most of their shares to South Africans at a huge loss (even though the law doesnt say they must)
3. Import technicians and technology at great cost
4. So they can export products overseas?

Does this sound like a good buisness model to you? Why did they not stay in Europe?[/size]