₦airaland Forum

Ihedinobi3:
My point was that Revelation 12:1 said that it was about to use a metaphor. I'm not sure how you missed that.

I don't get it?
What do you think about Revelation 12:1, are you saying it is not metaphorical?

Let me assure you that I don't for a moment believe that you are even possibly right about what you are talking about here.

see, whether you believe it or not I'm not interested.
There are other people who have come into this thread they have seen my point.

So you would be very remiss indeed to think that I could come around to your way of thinking. Your error is very blatant on this platform.

And like i said, you have your opinion, i have mine. I'm not here to convince you of anything, I'm just saying my opinion. If you think you have a superior thought than what i presented then correct me constructively, otherwise forget it.

This is my stand on the thread.
Some scriptures are written figuratively if you do not agree with that, then prove me wrong.
So far you have not.

It doesn't matter that a thousand people have a thousand different interpretations of the same Scriptures. It only matters whether one has the right interpretation:

that is what I'm driving at.
The bible came with a message which would have made this world a better place but today's conventional religion has altered the fundermentals of that message thereby throwing the society into a disarray of moral decadence.
So, my attempt was to draw people's attention back to the original message so that there will be sanity.

20 . . . no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation
2 Peter 1:20 (NKJV)

scriptures are self-explanatory if you put all things together. You can read the bible and understand it like any book, But obviously, we have inherited faulty unrealistic doctrines from perhaps Christian missionaries who brought Christianity into this part of the world centuries back and it is affecting our society today.

shadeyinka:
The good news however is that there would be a recreation of the earth which is not dependent on the sun that wears out due to loss of energy.

Rev 21:23-25: "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there."

who are these kings of the earth that do bring their glory into it, are they part of the new earth or they are kings of this present earth?

Ihedinobi3:
Here it says very obviously that a "sign" appeared in heaven. So this was a metaphor.

you just rightly assumed that the scripture is a metaphor because it says a sign appeared in heaven, not that you were told that it is a metaphor.
So, why don't you do the same to other scriptures with the same structure?

In Matthew 13:33, the Bible clearly says that it was a parable (that is, a device for comparing something to something else) and the Lord said that the Kingdom of Heaven was like something. That is clear enough. I don't see anything like that in the passage about the Day of the Lord.

you see now that Matthew 13:23 was well interpreted. But that is not the same to all parables of Jesus , that's why i say there is need to look at the structure of a statement in order to identity whether it is parable or not.

The writers of the Scriptures were most certainly not mad. They were inspired. But you are obviously not inspired, so your interpretation of their writings needs to be vetted for reliability

certainly!
I do not expect anyone to just take my word instantly. I always adjourn people to go back and cross check what i have said.

. As it is, it sounds rather insane. It doesn't sound at all like you and I read the same Scriptures.

exactly!
Do you realize that different sects of Christianity tend to have their different interpretations of certain scriptures?
That is because of variances in human reasoning

shadeyinka:
It may be some long time to come but if the sun is dying, the present earth as we know it cannot be forever

very true!

MrPresident1:
The Bible is inerrant.

There are people who mis-interprete deliberately and there are those who do so by mistake. You are a deliberate mis-quoter, mis-interpreter, and mis-translator of the Bible. The way of the people who do what you are doing is cursed, both here and in the hereafter.

you can say that again

It's your opinion, but no ground.

Myer:
Even the promise to Noah was that the world will never be destroyed.

God bless you!

That was a promise!
Was God lying in his promise?

Is God a God that will promise one thing and end up doing something else like humans?

I don't think so!

shadeyinka:
I will take you up only on entropy!

Will our sun live forever according to the law of conservation of energy? The sun is always loosing mass and energy: will it not die someday?

Entropy increasing with time means that all known order in existence will tend towards disorder.

you made a point.
That means as the sun is undergoing it nuclear fission it is loosing it mass gradually.

We are learning something new

But that will still take almost forever compared to human time before the total disorder?

MrPresident1:
No, you are very wrong.

End of the world means, end of the reign of satan's rule over this world,

we are saying the same thing

which is the return of Jesus.

if you are referring to the second coming of Jesus well that is not it.
When Jesus Christ came to die for the sins of mankind, he put an end to the rule of Satan, but only to those who believe.
But the return of Jesus?
Jesus has been returning everyday to judge everyone that dies.
It is appointed ones for men to die, after that judgement. This is a spiritual event that happens in the spirit when anyone dies. Revelation 20:12-15

So, when we say end of the world, we are talking about the end of wickedness, lawlessness, evil, cruelty, and inhumanity. The coming of Jesus will end all these

is this what you mean?
Then you are wrong

We still have wickedness, evil, lawlessness around us what are you talking.
Jesus Christ has come these things are still there,
Jesus Christ is still coming the second time these things are still there, no change.

Or have you not read 2 Corinthians?

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

In paradise, in heaven?

1. We are already in heaven, Christ resurrection has ushed us into heaven
2. Evil is everywhere including this heaven that we are already in on this earth.
3. The coming of Jesus has nothing to do with the world and it evil, Jesus even said it, my kingdom is not of this world.

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

the question they asked him was, what shall be the signs of thy coming which he came 2000 years ago to die for the sins of mankind don't you get it?
Please don't allow this thing to scam you o before you start saying the bible was fraudulent

Please go back and read the whole of that Matthew 24 you will see that all the signs he told them happened about the time he was speaking to them.
Infact Jesus ended by saying.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

So, everything happened in that generation.

Please don't be scammed o

MrPresident1:
OP, Paxonel, you have a knack for turning the Bible upside down.

For good of Christianity and me and you who believes in Christ.
Conventional doctrines are contradictory to reality and they are not doing us any good

I am sure you are aware of the curses that follow this behaviour, which will be in effect both here and in the hereafter.

there are no curses!
See, the only thing in this life that is permanent is truth and i will tell you why.

Learn from history,

In those days the church used to believe that the earth was flat is shape, it was a doctrine that was thought and it was a curse to believe anything otherwise. Everyone believed it trying to avoid the the so called curse until Galeleo came up with something different that the earth is spherical in shape, yet it took time for people to believe what Galelio was saying.

Today, virtually everyone have believed that the earth is spherical and not flat, now who has that curse affected for believing otherwise?

Rather the knowledge of that truth Galeleo brought is still improving lives today.

shadeyinka:
The Law of Entropy!

Entropy always increase with time is not a proof that existence will end someday.

2Pet 3:10: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

2Pet 3:12: "Looking for and hastening to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Rev 21:1: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Luk 21:33: "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

we've already discover what the day of the Lord is.
The day of the Lord is the day we all will die someday. That is the day the Lord will return and judge us.
It is appointed ones for men to die, after that judgement.
The day you die, that is the end of your world. After that life continues for those who are still alive.

Then, talking about the new heaven and the new earth, that one is your heart.
God's kingdom is in your heart.

ihedinobi2:
I believe that you are violently wrong about everything that you just said.

The Day of the Lord is very obviously no metaphor (I believe that that is the word you wanted, not "parable" ).

1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”
And His name one.
Zechariah 14:1-9 (NKJV)

There are far more passages like the above than I can even begin to quote here. Why on earth should anyone believe that it is a metaphor? Where does the Bible say that it is a metaphor? It sounds entirely like something you made up all by yourself when you say that.

Certainly, when we die, we face the consequences of our ultimate choice to believe in God's Messiah or to reject Him. But I don't see where in the Bible it says that the day of the Lord is when anybody dies. That seems to be your own invention. I also don't see where it says that we are judged when we die. The Bible seems clear that the Church will be evaluated for her rewards only at the Second Advent (1 John 2:28; Matthew 24:45-51, cf. Matthew 25:14-30), the Millennial believers also evaluated for theirs at the end of the Millennium (Matthew 25:31-40) and all unbelievers judged after this latter (Matthew 25:41-46; Revelation 20:11-15).

Also, I think that your claim that death comes without warning is easily proven false. Those who are about to be executed know that they are going to die. Many who are about to be murdered know that they are going to die. There are more than enough suicides to show that you are quite wrong too. The day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night, yes, but Paul goes on to say that this is for unbelievers who don't know or care what God says and believers who are being careless about their watch:

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-6 (NKJV)

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
Matthew 24:32-33 (NKJV)

It seems to me then that you are the one who needs to know that this is no metaphor at all and that the Bible really means what it says. Your interpretation is false in a very dangerous way.

As for the Kingdom of God being within, this is what the passage you are quoting says:

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
Luke 17:20-21 (NIV)

That is, the Kingdom of God is already in the world, not that it is within anybody. The Kingdom of God is in the world because believers in Jesus Christ are in the world and they are citizens of that kingdom (Philippians 3:20). This does not mean that there is no Heaven. I can't even understand how anyone could think it means that. Nobody thinks that there is no nation called the United States of America just because there is an embassy in Abuja called the United States Embassy/Consulate. That would be absurd. It would be just as absurd to claim that there is no nation called Canada just because Canadians are sprinkled all over Africa, for another example. Likewise, there is no reason to say that there is no Heaven just because there are Christians in the world. In fact, the Bible says this:

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.
Hebrews 9:11 (NIV)

do you believe that everything written in the bible were written literally? (in clear language for people to understand)

Take a look at this one

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Did Jesus give interpretation to this parable?
Can you then interprete it and know what it means since Jesus didn't give it interpretation thereof?

The same thing applies to some scriptures you read. They were not given outright interpretation but they expected the reader to read and understand.

Look, the writers of the bible are not mad.
No sensible person talk mysteries in a real world, any phrase you come across in the bible that sound mysterious to you have interior meaning, go for the meaning.
If you fail to go for the meaning it's your fault, not the writers fault

Look at this one.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Let's assume heaven was in the mysteries beyond the clouds how then will the king of the earth bring their glory to it?
They will climb ladder up to heaven?

Does that make sense to you?

Revelation 21:24 is a figurative language or parable and if you want to see the sense in it, then you should look at it that both the kings of earth and the kingdom of God where they bring their glory and honor, are all on this earth since they cannot climb ladder to the clouds

Well, you can choose to believe whatever you want to believe it's a free world
But understand one thing : If you have never read the bible from Genesis to Revelation such that every scripture you come across point to one thing which is the final conclusion of the whole bible you read, then you have not started reading.

shadeyinka:
Very wrong.
Even science agree that this world must end sometimes in the future.

every scientific conclusions have their references, come up with one reference in science to butress your point.
For Christians, the bible is our reference. You don't conclude without having an accurate backup of scripture

Dtruthspeaker:
You have not finished your thinking for that seed planted has to grow, which it did.

But let us consider the outcomes.

If the seed does not grow, then we could blame the farmland.

If the land is fertilzed and the seed does not grow, then we would blame the seed. And if the seed is at fault, the seed shall be uprooted and thrown into the fire because it is useless to everyone.

Now, if the seed grows, then it is supposed to bear Fruits/seeds.

If it does not bear fruits, the tree shall be cut down and thrown into the fire again (as firewood).

If it bears fruits, the fruits shall be plucked and fertilzers shall be applied on the tree so that it shall produce again.

So, say the Truth, is man producing good seeds that he should live?

is man producing good seeds that he should live?
The answer is no!

But has God give up on man?
The answer is no!

Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Matthew13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

So, God has not give up on man. Infact, he has already separated those who are bearing fruit from those who are not.

Regardless of your answer, you and I are not Determining whether this world shall be Terminated or Not!

we do not have power to determine that, everything is well spelt in the scriptures

But He Who Has Power To Do So, has Already Said That He Shall Do So!

if it so, it should reflect in the bible that he has said so, otherwise you are the one saying it.

ihedinobi2:
Here's what I read in the Bible:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

let me put it straight that this statement is like a parable(figurative language) and here is the meaning :
The day of the Lord represent the day of death for everyone which is the second coming of Christ.
Everyone have their different day when they will die therefore the day of Lord is different for everyone so it's not like there is a particular day set aside as the day of the Lord.
When anyone dies, that is the day Jesus returns or comes to judge that person. Hebrews 6:27
After that, life continues for those who didn't die,Therefore there is no end.

The day of the Lord comes like a thief that comes in the night without warning, that means death comes without warning.
Infact, the day we will die we will not be aware of what hit us.
That day, heaven and earth will pass away : that means we will not sense this clouds or heavens anymore, it will be as if the element of the clouds has melted or burnt with fervent heat (according to that scripture).
But in the real sense, there is no heat, no fire, it will just be end of life for the individual, that's all.
So, understand that it's a parable and it is not in anyway referring to end of the world if you read it with the proper interpretation.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:10-13 (NKJV)

yes! there is a promise of new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells, but that new heavens and new earth is an abstract entity(not what we perceive or observed with our five senses like a real world). This abstract entity called the kingdom of God dwells in us.(all believers)
Luke 17:20-21
So, there is nothing like another world called heaven.
Heaven is already here with us.
We represent the kingdom of God here on this earth where there is righteousness.
And what is that righteousness?
It is righteousness of God through Christ.
Not by our works
Not that we were good in the first place.
It's a gift,
So heaven is a gift.

CodeTemplar:
there was a first day and there shall be a last day.

the argument does not follow.
Even if there is going to be a last day it's something no one today can determine, just like no one today can determine the first day.

Kobojunkie:
The field in question does not refer to an actual place on the map. If you read through the parables about the kingdom carefully, you will note that the Kingdom only refers to a portion of the whole, and not a place on the whole or the whole itself. Imagine the world a map of so large area covered with different fields, the Kingdom of God is just one of those fields.
Not even close! Even when He tells the parable of the wedding Banquet, again Jesus Christ tell story of a single kingdom where it is possible there are many, many other kingdoms.

I am afraid you have it all wrong there. Jesus Christ did not come that the world may have what is called Christianity today. Plus, Christianity, as we have it in today's world, is a complete departure from the descriptions of Jesus Christ's Kingdom parables.

i rest my case!
But please don't quote me again for irrelevant talk

Kobojunkie:
The house of Jacob does not represent the entire world though.
Matthew 13 does not refer, in anyway to the entire world. A field represents a minute area compared to the world that it can never then be said to represent the entire world. The Kingdom of God as described in all of Matthew 13, does not in anyway represent the entire world, only a near tiny/small portion of it, maybe but never the whole world.
LOL.... sensible reader my foot! It is insensible to assume that Jesus Christ, when telling His many parables, did not know the difference between the WORLD and a FIELD. He really did mean a field, and when compared to the world, it is safe to conclude that the field compared to God's Kingdom in all of the parables, does not cover the entire world in anyway shape or form.

you fail to point out what that minute area is and where it is located, therefore your argument isn't complete and you are wrong

Otherwise this whole thing is for the entire world.

John 3:16 For God so love the world...

Today after 2000 years of his resurrection, we have Christianity spread everywhere in almost the entire world and your belief that it is not for the entire world couldn't do anything to stop this spread.

The belief of end of the world comes from colonial mentality. The truth is, the moment you die that's the end of your world, life continues after that. There is no place in the bible that suggest that this world will have a dramatic end . But rather,

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

What is the field represent in this parable?
The field represent this world. Matthew 13:38

So, this world will never end.
A sensible reader will put these words together and think, and understand.

When any pastor today come to tell you that this world will have a dramatic end, he is not talking from the spirit of God, he is only assuming things away from scriptures.

paulsoniv:
These days we see and listen to hip hop and rap music with Christian content.
What's your take on that.

its a welcomed development

Kobojunkie:
I am confused. He was neither a prophet of the old covenant nor of the new covenant. How did you arrive at this claim?

John was a Nazarite, according to the Old Covenant (not the New) and he lived as one till the time of His death. He lived according to the Old Covenant, even after His encounter with Jesus Christ. He was a messenger from among the people, sent to deliver God's message to the people as described in the book of Malachi. There is no record of John ever becoming a follower of Jesus Christ till His death. So, how did you manage to put him in-between the two covenants?

I wanted to explain further and i discover that there is no point
Let's leave it there

Kobojunkie:
Again, John the Baptist was prophet under the Old Covenant, and not the New Covenant. He lived and died according to God's Old's covenant.

no!
He was neither a prophet of the old covenant nor that of the new covenant. He was somewhere inbetween.
He was an intermiate prophet between the old covenant and the new covenant who was sent to the Jews to bear witness of Christ in order to pave way for the new covenant. John 1:8.
He was never for the old covenant, rather the old covenant and it prophets(the scribes and Pharisees) were expected to believe him and not the other way round. Matthew 21:25.
Even John the Baptist followers were later baptized by Paul into Christianity after his death. Act 19:3-5

If Paul had not baptized them into Christianity today, we will still have another religion known as the religion of John the Baptist which would have been different from Judaism and Christianity.

Kobojunkie:
None! I mean how do you decide for sure if one of God's own Covenant is truly greater than another God's own Covenants?

are you for real?
It seems you were converted recently from another religion into Christianity

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Since God is Truth, then both His Covenants are Truth. So, what exactly do we compare both on, or by?

This is the comparison.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

So, the last covenant is greater, greater in the sense that he brought eternal life which the other covenants lack John 3:16

Um, according to the Bible, Moses was the prophet through whom God delivered His Old Covenant to His people, Israel.

No!
Moses delivered the law, not the old covenant.
The old covenant came through Abraham. Genesis 17:1.
That was why the children of israel repeatedly told Jesus that Abraham as their father, not Moses. John 8:39

I don't believe He founded the Old Covenant, and neither do I believe Abraham founded anything of the sort.

now that you have heard it from me, it's your choice to believe it or deliberately discard it

God founded the Old covenant since He, God, made the promise to Abraham, not the other way around. And it was also He, God, who picked Moses to be the prophet through whom He would deliver His Covenant to the people of Israel.

In that case, God founded all religions too. The question is, on whom was the religion founded, that is the distinguishing factor, the most important figure.
Jesus says I'm the way the truth and the life.
That means Muhammad and his Islam can never be the way or the truth
Abraham and his Judaism can never be the way or the truth
Hinduism, Budhaism or any other religion and their founders can never be the way.

Abraham was not a prophet of Judaism. Abraham knew nothing of the details of what was to come. He simply knew of God making him a promise to give the land to his descendants.

is that so?
Just like that.

Abraham was a mere man who pleased God so, that God decided to use Him as root in both agreements. God first made the promise to Abraham, a promise He reiterated to Isaac, and then Jacob, and so on.

Is Jesus Christ not also descended from the same line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
I need to be honest here as I fail to see where you are going with the discussion at this point. What I said of both covenants both running concurrently to this point in time has not changed and will never change, according to God Himself.

you should understand every covenant come with a purpose God don't initiate a covenant with a man without any reason.
When the purpose of one covenant is achieved God terminate it and pave way for a new covenant so that his new plan will be materialize.

P.S. Unless you believe the God of the Bible to be a celestial schitzophrenic of sorts, you would know that He could not have founded Islam.

you are right!
Afterall, Jesus covenant where we belong is the last for now.
But that doesn't mean God is against Islam.
Any religion that promote the law God will stand by it.

Kobojunkie:
I think you need to be careful the way you go about looking to inserting additional meaning where it does not exist. The verse in Matthew 3 vs 1o you quoted where the words of John the Baptist, and he was a follower of the Old Covenant, not Jesus Christ, the new Covenant. John was in no way referring to the Old Covenant. John the Baptist never discouraged people from following the Old Covenant, not even after his encounter with Jesus Christ.

John never insinuated God was attempting to turn back on His word, or Change His mind. The Old Covenant is the same covenant that bore the Fruit called Jesus Christ. Was He not a good fruit hence? When Jesus Christ lived, even He lived His life in obedience to the Old Covenant, so how can the Old Covenant that God Himself, in His wisdom, set up, be considered a bad tree?
Again, I suggest caution as you look at these things. John the Baptist was speaking to the Pharisees, so it makes sense to assume that they were the trees He was referring to since Trees don't live forever, but Covenants are forever.

Where is the place of Abraham? I don't understand your question. Abraham was not even a prophet of God but a man who came to God, eventually becoming God's friend. So, why ask where his place is?

Jesus Christ is the Word out of God's own Mouth(Truth) who was made flesh and given t us to not only teach us but show us exactly what it is that God wants us to do in obedience of Him in other for us to quality as Sons of God. Why compare Him to anyone like Abraham or Mohammed to begin with?

Jesus Christ is God's human avatar...the embodiment of God's new Covenant, the eternal life promised to all those who accept Him, and the Only way to God. Why compare the promise that the New Covenant brings to the Old covenant promise which, as you should have read are two completely different promises and for two completely different sets of people.
Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Old Covenant on behalf of those who would choose to leave it and follow Him. Obviously, they could not simply walk out on the covenant without being damned by their acts, that is why Jesus Christ came and lived as He did to buy them from the Old Covenent so they could walk into the New Covenant without consequence.

We, the gentiles however, were never bound to the Old Covenant so we were and still are free to engage the New Covenant without consequence. Only consequence comes when we attempt to leave the New Covenant that we have chosen.
Shadow of what? Not according to God Himself and certainly not according to Jesus Christ, who even while He lived, encouraged people to continue to obey the Law, and live according to the ways that God had instructed them.

the law Jesus stood for, has nothing to do with what we are saying.
The law is for everyone whether you practice Judaism, you are a Muslim or a Christian.

Simple questions and answers:

1. Between the old covenant and the new covenant which is greater?
2. On whom was the old covenant or Judaism founded when God said i will make you the father of many nations, is it not Abraham? Abraham therefore is the prophet of Judaism(Abraham may not necessarily prophesy to be a prophet as the founder of any religion in those days used to be regarded by the people as the prophet of that religion)
3. On whom was the new covenant found, is it not Jesus Christ? Therefore Jesus Christ is the prophet of Christianity.
4. On whom was Islam found, is it not prophet Muhammad? Therefore Muhammad is the prophet of Islam

You should understand that this is what I'm driving at

Kobojunkie:
God associated with Judaism only at the time it lasted? Again, that is not true!

Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

literally, the trees in this parable refers to covenants in the past between God and man which includes that between God and Abraham.
As God was about to set up a new covenant through Christ, all these other covenants which includes that of Abraham were cut down making them null and void.
So choose one!
Do you belong to Christ or you belong to Abraham?

The Jews challenged Jesus
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? ...
But Jesus responded
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

So, Jesus is the way the truth and the life, not Abraham or Muhammed or any other prophet

The promise God made to Abraham is still in effect to this day

and that promise has been fulfilled in Christ, where is then the place of Abraham?

meaning what you refer to as Judaism, and I like to call the Old Covenant is still in full operation to this day, and will be forever because that is the deal God made.

that wasn't real.
Infact, it was the shadow of things to come.
And the thing to come was the new covenant through Christ. Hebrews 10:1

When I used the word sanction, I meant to apply it's other meaning

ok

I beg to differ!! If "Saving them all" was the point of what Jesus Christ came for, then yes, He would have at least made sure they had the same chance, but He, Jesus Christ, did not give them all the same chance that He did His disciples. One might ask what the end result of that would have been? It means the Pharisees who did not believe in Jesus Christ, did not receive eternal life and so perished/ceased to exist once they died like the rest of the unbelievers out there continue to.

exactly!
But there was equal chance for everyone to decide and the Pharisees had decided not to believe, there was nothing anyone could do.

Kobojunkie:
But the same Judaism you claim they were "saved" from

read my lips, i did not say they were saved from Judaism, I say God associated with Judaism only at the time it lasted because of the covenant he had with Abraham.

is still sanctioned by God even to this day and forever will be. So how can one claim that Jesus Christ came to save them from Judaism?

the word sanction is not the right one to use as God is not sanctioning anyone for deciding to practice the religion of his choice.
Everyone have the right to choose whatever religion, it's a free world.

But John 3:36 says He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

That isn't sanction, it's only telling you that the unbeliever will not have life after his death.
And while he is yet alive no one is sanctioning him for believing in order religion

And Why did He only save a handful, about 11, according to Him, if He was really intent on "saving them from Judaism"?

you mean he should have only one disciple saved if he had intended to save them from Judaism?
I'm not getting you

Heck, one could even say that Jesus Christ 'discouraged' many more from converting to follow Him than He did encourage them to convert and follow Him. I mean how do you win hearts when rather than speaking in plain text to them to convince them of your truth, you choose to speak in parables to them so they would not understand you clearly and hence turn to follow you? That is what Jesus Christ did. If His plan was indeed to get the Jews to turn to Him, He did a lot to sabotage there conversation in many ways.

like i said, to follow Jesus Christ and become his disciple was a matter of self-will. He didn't force anyone to be his disciple, rather he spoke the truth and they were convinced to become his disciple.
Now, there were the Pharisees among the Jews. Unlike the disciples, the Pharisees never had the self-will to believe Jesus even if he had spoken to them in clear terms order than parables.
Parables or no parables they will never believe, so what is the need using plan terms?

You Christians you don't think at all, i nor know where una put una brain

Kobojunkie:
What? Jesus Christ came down to preach to the Jews to save them from Judaism? What? The same Jesus Christ who admitted just before the end that He did not lose any of the ones God in fact gave Him, except for Judas, came to preach to all the Jews to save them? Are you sure of what you are saying? Or are you simply repeating what you have been told without doing your own due diligence in verifying the stories you were told?

you want to know whether I'm sure, thats your hope that I'm wrong

These are the things you should consider :
1. Before Jesus came, all these disciples you are talking about were all Jews, that means their original religion was Judaism, that was their faith.
2. When Jesus came he told them, have faith in me : meaning, their faith changed the moment they believed. These same disciples were the first apostles of Christianity later after Jesus had ascended, that was the origin of Christianity.

So, we are saved by our faith and that faith is Christianity

Kobojunkie:
You tell me... what God was the OP pretending to speak on behalf of?

he wasn't pretending anything.
He was speaking on behalf of Jesus Christ the founder of the new covenant where all Christians belong, not the old covenant where there was Malachi.

You have to understand that God is the God of time and time changes.
There was time for the old covenant where tithing was the case, God stood by tithing then.
Now is the time for salvation, circumcision, tithing or whatever Jewish law availeth no longer, you have to understand that

Kobojunkie:
Salvation according to whom though? Jesus Christ came and preached to those who already claimed to know of God, and not to those who did not believe at all in God. So, where does your idea of Salvation come from?

you are not getting it!
Jesus Christ came to preach to the Jews who practiced Judaism so that they will join Christianity and be saved.
Salvation is through faith

Kobojunkie:
What is sad is you probably believe your opinion weighs heavier than the very word out of God's own mouth.

which God mouth?

englishmart:
Whenever the issue of tithing surfaces, several people get to agree or disagree; there's usually some heated arguments. I don't want to make make this post tedious, let me go straight.

The Bible says in Malachi that a tithe defaulter actually robs God. How can one rob the source of wealth itself?
This is like a case of a Dad, gifting his son 20k and still call him a thief if he doesn't return 2k later. Why not remove the 2k yourself, since you're the one the money is going back to, and give me 18k, so I won't be guilty of robbery?

good thought

lonikit:
I think alter call has no relationship with salvation. salvation is something that happens in the heart and raising of hands and moving out to the alter during a crusade has nothing to do with it. in fact, it discourages some people because they are used to alter call and yet, no evidence of salvation in their lives. I also think there is no injunction to that in the bible so, why indoctrinating it.

there is also no injunction in the bible to call a Christian to the alter for salvation.
Muslims should be called not Christians who are already saved