₦airaland Forum

[quote author=EzeUche_ link=topic=604388.msg7724339#msg7724339 date=1297621107]Maybe they were referring Sudan as an North African nation. Remember that this country supposedly has many "Arabs."[/quote]Yeah, that's precisely the problem. Sudan is still a black country, with only a very small amount of non-black Arabs. Even the Arabs there are overwhelmingly black Arabs.

Considering Sudan a North African country when Mali is just as high up north geographically and just as Muslim, is just disingenuous or a blatant falsehood. I've never seen Sudan referred to as North African anywhere else, but maybe I haven't read enough. I stand to be corrected, but until then, I have to conclude that the Ghana claim is just based on error.

Ikengawo:
so why is ethiopia not a part of black africa?

It is. They had independence before Ghana and Sudan of course, but they were not really colonized. They were just occupied. If Ethiopia were a candidate for consideration, the Ghana claim would definitely not have arisen, not even from the Ghanaians themselves.

Ikengawo:
well south africa was independant long before anyone of those two

Don't be deliberately obtuse.  It's clear I meant black controlled Africa. I didn't include Ethiopia too even though it was briefly held by Italy, for the simple reason that I was referring to specific kinds of black African countries, of which Ghana was actually second, not first.

Hmm, apparently the UN classified Sudan as part of North Africa for reasons best known to them and not sub-Saharan Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa


I think the Ghana claim is basically based on a bizarre classification technicality.  My point was that Ghana was second in black Africa, and if not for the strange Sudan classification (because we all know the Sudanese are not North Africans, regardless of whatever rubbish the UN comes up with) by some uninformed body like the UN, that Ghana claim would have died out quickly.

This UN classification is especially silly because Mali, which is classified as West African and also in "sub-Saharan" Africa by everybody, is not lower geographically than Sudan, but is never classified as North African. 

I won't bother about slamming them at ghanaweb.com now though, because they'll just resort to nonsensical technicalities if I do.

fstranger3:
I can't really get hold of the article right now,but this should shed a lil more light.

http://www.tribune.com.ng/index.php/the-hard-fact/6184-why-yoruba-must-ronu-1

Between years 1952 and 1956, there is no historical evidence, implied or recorded, to suggest that the North produced any additional college educated individual. From what I have read over the years, the second college educated graduate was produced post 1956 or just around 1956. This is not in anyway an attempt to chest beat, I am just making this point to counter your argument that Awo believed in Yoruba supremacy. He never did. He was merely stating facts and drawing conclusions from available evidence.

Thanks for the info. Very sad how the Northerners just steered clear of real education like that.



Where did I state that Awolowo believed in Yoruba supremacy?

I admitted that I interpreted his claims about readiness for self-rule wrongly, however, I stated that he had an explicitly Yoruba agenda and claims of cultural superiority. The saga leading up to the creation of the Midwest showed a Yoruba agenda and the claims of perceived cultural superiority are from Awolowo's own words.

Anyway, I can provide a quote not from Awolowo directly, but from people from that era that suggests that Awolowo had a low opinion of Northerners, but not right away (I don't have the book with me).

fstranger3:
Again, there is a difference between moving a motion for self rule Vs. moving a motion for independence. I understand how both can be misconstrued, but here is an article for you to ruminate on:

Lol, ok, if you want to quibble over nothing, fine. Fani-Kayode moved the first motion, but there is certainly no indication that that meant Yorubas were more ready for independence than other southerners, contrary to what you asserted.


Anyway, Enahoro's speech in 1953 calling for independence in 1956 is clearly the first call for a specific date for independence. If it had not been rejected by Northerners, clearly a motion would have been moved. If the person that moved the subsequent motion happened to be an Igbo, ijaw or a Kanuri, would you then claim that the Igbo, Ijaw or the Kanuri were the most ready for self-government? 

Also, you initially said 1956, but now it's 1958? 

I've already read that Fani-Kayode article, and it's just shameless grasping for fragments of glory that were never actually accorded to his father during that man's lifetime. Anybody could have moved that motion after the calming down of tension between Northern and Southern (AG, NCNC, etc.) politicians.

After the contemptuous speeches given by Awolowo and other southern politicians and inflammatory writings in the press against Northerners for holding up independence in 1956, and the crisis that resulted when Akintola went up North to try and convince them to relent and agree to independence in 1957, there was enormous friction. When this friction died down, they eventually reached a compromise date, and Fani-Kayode formally introduced the pre-agreed upon date.

There was no significance to the fact that it was Fani-Kayode that moved it. Enahoro's is more significant for pressing the issue. If he hadn't made it an issue so early, I think these Northerners would have rejected it in 1958, and then delayed until 1965. 

[quote author=Chyz* link=topic=604388.msg7723354#msg7723354 date=1297606626]Yes. It Sudan got its independence in 1956 from both the britiash and egypt. Ghana got theirs 1957.[/quote]That's what I thought. But I'm always hearing this Ghana claim, especially (but not only) from Ghanaians. I wonder if I shouldn't post this same topic on ghanaweb.com, but with a more provocative title.

Damn.

The mind of the German soldier is something that I cannot understand.

I sometimes read and hear the claim that Ghana was the first colonized African country to gain independence.


Is this actually true?

When did Sudan get independence?


Just a simple question.

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=602652.msg7723031#msg7723031 date=1297601255]Well, certainly being dead-last despite being a major oil-producing state is more compelling from a news perspective than under-performing.  Though ultimately it doesn't seem to make much sense to use media coverage of the survey itself to then judge how valid the survey is, right?[/quote]True.

And just as plausible that any systematic errors in fact understate unemployment.

Well I wasn't suggesting error, but fabrication.

From what i understand, one of the better farming states in the nation.

Ok. That would explain it, then. Successful/widespread farming combined with low population would result in that kind of statistic.

An interesting hypothesis. Sorta wonder why "they" would do it in such a way to make the VPs state look terrible, though.

Well, common knowledge amongst southerners or Nigerians in general that Bayelsa was doing terribly in terms of development would make it easier for the public to believe such statistics were valid if Bayelsa was put in that position, while serving the purpose of making the list more balanced (as it is now) between North and South. It might sound conspiracy theory-like, but I'm really just suspicious of all these relatively lower to medium unemployment rates for states with relatively abysmal GDP stats.

"PTF Projects: The Abacha regime created a parallel government through the Petroleum Trust Fund (PTF) headed by Major General Muhammed Buhari. Nothing else typifies the marginalisation of the Yoruba than the lopsidedness of the projects carried out by the PTF. Figures from PTF Situation Reports (Vol. 2 Dec. 98) show that the PTF carried on as if there was no South West.

Of all the roads rehabilitated by he PTF, only 1984.5 kilometres of roads representing 10.84 per cent were carried out in the South West; from where the bulk of the PTF revenue came since the zone consumes over 60 per cent of refined petroleum products. All the Southern States had 4,440.43 kms or 24 per cent of road rehabilitation as against 13,870.47 kms or 76 per cent in the Northern States zone three comprising the North-West States of Jigawa, Kaduna, Kano, Katsina, Kebbi, Sokoto and Zamfara had a lion share of 5020 kms or 27.42 per cent because the Fund’s Chairman, Buhari and the military dictator Sani Abacha were from there; zone four comprising the North-East States of Adamawa, Bauchi, Borno, Gombe, Taraba and Yobe picked 23.48 per cent. This is the zone where Salihijo Ahmed, the late Chief Executive of Afri-Project Consortium APC, the sole consultants that supervised all PTF projects came from."

http://www.nigerianmuse.com/20061228122222zg/nigeria-watch/all-about-the-oputa-panel-hrvic/nigeria-has-persecuted-the-yoruba-submission-of-afenifere-to-the-human-rights-violations/


^^^^^

A not so lovely one, courtesy of Buhari.

fstranger3:
It is the same Cicero who turned an ordinary TV interview about Nigeria progress, with the then screen TV in late 2001, into ethnic bashing, saying; "Nigeria would have reached the promised land if not for the BACKWARD north. 


I have not read path to Nigerian Freedom. I only read "Awo On The Nigerian Civil War" and that was ages ago. I think Awo was being misunderstood a lil bit. In the above quote, he was only stating the obvious with regards to the different ethnic groups and their attitude towards western culture and education. If you remember, The first motion for independence was moved by the Yorubas in 1956, and at that time, it wasn't granted because the Hausas, and to some extent the Ibos weren't ready. And, their non-readiness was a reflection, to some extent, of their educational sophistication and exposure. It would be recalled that as at 1956, the North only had 1 college educated individual and the Ibos didnt have as much educated people as Yorubas. As a matter of fact, in NCNC then, the major intellectual thrust of the party was the Yorubas within the party structure, with the exception of few Igbos like Philip Emordi, the Yorubas ruled around independence. Awos quote above was based on the fact on ground, and any mis-interpretation of that quote to mean Yoruba supremacy is definitely not true and reeks of mischief from  people eager to give Awolowo a bad rep.

Wow@ Bola Ige's comments. Truly age does not always confer wisdom.


1. I believe the first motion for independence was by Enahoro in 1953, apparently. And Enahoro is not Yoruba.
2. On what basis could it be said that the Igbos were not ready?
3. The North had 1 college educated individual by 1956?! I know they had few, but provide a source for a claim of only one.
4. The Igbos had more or less caught up to the Yorubas by the 1950s, I think. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I have.
5. "The major intellectual thrust of the NCNC, with few exceptions, was by Yorubas"? My examination of Nigerian history did not give me that impression. Maybe you know something I don't.
6. I think he implied Yoruba cultural superiority to specific groups. Maybe you see something different in that statement.
7. I can see how he would think greater Westernization could be tied to a greater readiness for self-rule, so I may have misinterpreted it.

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=602652.msg7722868#msg7722868 date=1297598418]Hard to say without seeing the methodology used. And even then, this is an area of statistics I've not studied at all. So I'd need to spent some time understanding the field a bit.

However, assuming that their methodology is valid, then the overall conclusion (that Bayelsa is under-performing as far as employment goes) seems reasonable.

Assuming that the methodology is good, seems unlikely that there is enough error/systematic bias to make a state with a great employment rate actually measure out amongst the worst. Unless someone in that department is purposefully fcking around with the stats to make Bayelsa look bad. . . something that seems a bit implausible.[/quote]Ok, but this doesn't seem to be about whether Bayelsa is under-performing to a great extent, but that they are apparently the most under-performing. Why aren't the apparent unemployment rates of Akwa-Ibom and Rivers attracting the same condemnation, press, and commentary when they are apparently troubled states as well? Where are their ACN political announcements?

I'm also skeptical of how they found out that Bauchi, Katsina, etc., just so happened to be slightly (1%) better than Bayelsa.

Also, it seems entirely plausible that a state that may actually have an awful unemployment rate was given a great unemployment rate in those statistics.

Nassarawa state has one of the lowest GDP's and GDP per capita from available data but somehow has one of the highest employment rates? What's going on there? What are they employing them to do there?

I know there's a lot of activity in Jos/Plateau, but what's in Nassarawa, exactly? If someone can tell me what's going on there that they've got it so good, I will take back all that I said.

Also, what's going on in Kebbi?

I think they got the real data, and then jumbled a few states about a little bit in a random manner, to downplay a north-south divide.

Is Kwara state really the ideal state for this whole farming/food production scheme? Is there any reason serious attempts are not being made by most other states to move into mechanized farming and agriculture on a large scale?


Just asking, I don't know too much about the state.



On a completely unrelated note, Jigga in Kwara:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-27020.0.html

http://bellanaija..com/2006/10/jay-z-in-kwara.html

http://www.clickafrique.com/Magazine/ST012/CP0000000264.aspx

edit - found better pictures


www.nairaland.com/attachments/22832_DSC00226_jpge579c1d560c231c1f4af3f7b37fd65e8

www.nairaland.com/attachments/22835_DSC00233_jpgde15b14a54e64c79dcd0f7c1766a9818

snakova:
No blood 4 oil. All dese jerk offs tinkin dey kno som'in. Oil is found after geophysical n seismic exploration n makin a LUCKY dig. 4 a geophysicist 2 make dat claim, it shd b afta studyin d data. Due 2 d cost involvd in digging, u nd 2 hope 1 of your earliest trap digs produces a well or else u'd av despairin explorers on your hand. Or mayb dey r just holdin out 4 dat n.delta oil 2 drain. I blieve oil wud b found so dat al dose c suckers frm d south go suck it. Jerks

WTF is this nonsense? Clearly, the English language eludes you.

This Kanti-Bello fella is comically ugly.

That woman on the facebook link you have there.

fstranger3:
Can you provide a link or a quote because I really doubt that. It was Bola Ige to my knowledge who said something to that effect. In fact, I watched him on TV made those careless utterances. But Awo, never seen a link or quote from him directly. I'd appreciate it if you could provide evidence.

What's up with your signature? Is she okay with that and did she tell you that was her, or did you just attempt to stalk her down on facebook?

fstranger3:
Can you provide a link or a quote because I really doubt that. It was Bola Ige to my knowledge who said something to that effect. In fact, I watched him on TV made those careless utterances. But Awo, never seen a link or quote from him directly. I'd appreciate it if you could provide evidence.

This is the quote that is usually mentioned:

“In embracing western culture, the Yoruba take the lead, and have benefited immensely as a result. The Efiks, the Ijaws, the Ibibios and Ibos come next. The last four named are particularly ambitious, and are doing all they can to overtake the Yorubas. The Hausas and Fulanis on the other hand are extremely conservative, and take reluctantly to Western civilization….and if the race is to be swift, in spite of their lower cultural background, the Ibos or the Ibibios would certainly qualify for self-government, long before the Hausas” (Awolowo, O. Path to Nigerian Freedom London 1947 p. 49)


I haven't yet read that book (Path to Nigerian Freedom), though I've come across enough interesting quotes from it to want to read it. Unless someone who has read the book, can say authoritatively that this commonly referenced quote isn't in there, I would have to take it as authentic.

This isn't some sort of hugely bigoted statement, but it makes claims about cultural superiority and ability to carry out self-governance on an ethnic basis, and clearly places the Yorubas above other ethnic groups.

It could be argued that the Igbos and Ibibios had developed "higher" culture  in some aspects than the Yorubas or Hausas, and it could easily be argued that the Hausas could immediately qualify for self-government on the basis of the uninterrupted feudal self-governance and strict religious laws that they had practiced for hundreds of years.


What did Bola Ige say about Northerners?

fstranger3:
^^^

I really reject the assertion the Awolowo had an ethnic agenda. I have studied him and cant find any instance where he espoused the supremacy of the Yorubas over others. He always wanted one Nigeria

In fairness, he once said that he could not be a great Nigerian without first of all be known as a great Yoruba man" which I interpret as, for him to aspire to the presidency of Nigeria, he has to be able to point to something tangible that he has done for his people. And, the notion that he was Yoruba first and everyone else second is very ridiculous and baseless. As the premier of the West, whose welfare  and concerns was he supposed to pander to?

1. Awolowo pretty much called the Northerners backward relative to the Yorubas. I'm not going to get into a discussion about the merit of that statement, but it seems like a pretty straightforward declaration of superiority, within the context it was made.
2. Awolowo's ethnic agenda contributed largely to the AG losing the Midwest, in my opinion.
3. It's true to some extent that to be a great Nigerian on the national level, one should first deliver on the local level. I can certainly agree with that. While I could easily imagine a politician who could deliver on the national level without having previously done anything for his ethnic group, in real life, if one does not even show concern, affection, or have developmental goals for one's ethnic group, it's unlikely that one would suddenly and spontaneously show such traits towards all the different African groups in the country upon being elected.

[quote author=eku_bear link=topic=602652.msg7712492#msg7712492 date=1297437754]Kobo, it is more like 18 times per capita, if we use 3 million. $15.70 for Bayelsa per person, 88 cents for Lagos.

Employment figures as of March 2009:
https://i54.tinypic.com/211rzew.png
http://www.nigerianstat.gov.ng/ext/latest_release/LabourForcestat.pdf

38%+ of Bayelsans unemployed, compared to the national average of 19.7%.

Wow.[/quote]What's going on in Nassarawa, Kwara, Niger, Kaduna, Kebbi, and Zamfara? Who's employing who, and for what?

Is unemployment in Akwa Ibom really comparable to that in Bauchi?

Do you really believe these statistics? Or are you just joining in on the "sh1t on Bayelsa" parade? Answer honestly, please.

Beaf:
What a donkey!
Hehe! I'm not from Bayelsa, so you are the FOOL here! And regardless of how you look at it, my state is better than your dump. Thank God!

You claimed to be from the SS and instead you have been shown to be a crusty arsed parasite whose state produces fvkall, yet you can open your parasitic mouth to lash those that feed you and who you have perpertrated human rights abuses against for half a century.

Dude, whats the name of your fvking parasitic state na?
Is it too hard to tell us? Lets know whether you add value to Nigeria or if your states "other source of income" is from the export of your women to Italy (underage and overage, young and old, unmarried and married).

Dunce.

So, in order to defend Bayelsans, you insult other groups? You just sound desperate and emotional here.

1. How exactly is Delta better than Edo? I would actually like to know. I can't claim to know as much about Delta state as you or many others on here, but I don't really see it, so enlighten me.

2. From which states do people who have "perpetrated human rights abuses against Bayelsans for half a century" hail from? Name the specific states.

3. The prostitution situation in Edo state is sad and reprehensible, but the last time I checked, prostitution was actually work, even if illegal and dangerous to one's health and that of society. Not to say that Edo state's greater development than Bayelsa derives from prostitution, because it actually doesn't, contrary to what you might think, but Bayelsa's unemployment figures, if actually true, should clearly also be a source of shame and embarrassment for the Bayelsans.

4. As far as adding value to Nigeria, how do you define that? I thought there was a general agreement on this forum that oil was, in so many aspects, a curse to Nigeria ("Dutch disease", so don't use oil as an example of "value".  How then does Bayelsa add more "value" to Nigeria than where 10cirenoh is from? Are they employing more Nigerians there? I don't see it, really, but if 10cirenoh is indeed from Edo state, his state, even if landlocked, would probably develop faster independent of Nigeria, than Bayelsa is developing now in Nigeria, so you should leave the "parasite" argument out of it. Also, no Edo state people are really forcing Bayelsa to be in Nigeria.

Dede1:
The assertion that Zik’s speeches of the era as evidenced were conveyed through ethnic mannerisms and loaded with sectional agenda is misguided attempt to give dog a bad name. When the speeches were made, there was no country known as Republic of Nigeria and the inhabitants of the protectorates were strictly indentified through the ethnic strips or provisional proximity.

In the speeches, Zik kept referring to Igbo, eastern region of Nigeria and Cameroons. I guess the geographical areas such as Nigeria and Cameroon had been identified as colonial administrative entities not officially know as independent sovereign nations.

It was proper to identify the people through their ethnical shades. The speeches from Yoruba, Hausa, Kanuri and Fulani politicians were more caustic and ethnically biased in nature than the Zik’s speeches. If you had opportunity to listen to juju musicians in cohort with politicians of the era, you probably would have no choice but to embrace Zik’s eloquent and rhetoric skills.

I think that once again, you are deliberately resorting to semantics to try to deny the point I was making, as you did with the Ejoor question. This is a misguided attempt to muddle things.

1. I did not make some sort of claim that the "Republic of Nigeria" existed in 1949. I am well aware of the simple fact that the existence of the colony of Nigeria and the Cameroons means that Zik could not have referred to only Nigerians rather than ethnic groups, without promoting a kind of division which he was supposed to have been against as an NCNC politician.

2. I did not state that Zik should have somehow not referred specifically to the Igbo, when his very purpose was to address issues concerning them and their place in Nigeria and Africa.

3. I did not say that he should have negated his commitment to his ethnic group or completely ceased from making a few pro-Igbo comments.

4. My perception of an ethnic agenda in Zik's words, lies in the actual words themselves. Zik's words decrying victimization of Igbos could easily be justified, given some of the events of that time, such as the pogrom, and many other events I might not know about as I was not around. I was not taking issue with those words. My point of contention is that enormous ethnic nationalism, if it is to be wedded with political, non-ethnic nationalism, is appropriate not for a national, uniting, pan-African figure who can appropriately represent all African groups in a region regardless of ethnicity, but for a sectional/ethnic leader. That should be pretty easy to understand.

5. I did not state that ethnic speeches were not given by other politicians of that era. In fact, I even said that Awolowo's comments about the Yorubas, Igbos, Hausa-Fulani's etc, were chauvinist. He praised the Yorubas, gave grudging praise to the Igbos, calling them culturally inferior while also acknowledging their educational progress, praised the Ibibios' educational progress, and slammed the Hausa-Fulanis. What I asked for were speeches which went to such lengths of ethnic glorification. If you have evidence of "juju musicians in cohort with politicians of that era" engaging in such ethnic glorification, provide, names, dates, and summaries of what they were claiming for their ethnic groups.

Dede1:
You are free to throw your respect to the dogs but the human in Awo had no relevance to the personage of Zik

Zik might have been speaking directly to Igbo State Union in 1949 and 50, but the focal point of his message was directed to all inhabitants of the protectorates to stand up against British colonial rule.

I have challenged the poster of Zik’s speeches on this forum to also post the speeches made by politicians such Awo or Bello during the Nigeria’s pre-independence era. Anyway, I doubt if speeches made by Awo or Bello would be significantly weighty to make rounds on the Internet.   

I actually don't have to post an Ahmadu Bello or Awolowo speech. My point was that some of the other leaders did not display ethnic nationalism to such an extent, not that those leaders were fair and unbiased. Balewa and Ahmadu Bello ("I bring a message from the Sardauna" etc. ) who made anti-Southern and anti-Igbo statements in 1947 or 1948, are certainly not my idea of unbiased, fair, national leaders. They are only Northern leaders. However, even these "North first, then the rest of Nigeria" types did not, to the best of my knowledge, engage in a glorification of the Fulani, or the Hausa-Fulani, but instead seemed to engage in a glorification/praise of their region, the entire North, over the South. This is also  sub-standard for the political leaders of one united future country, but definitely a cut above a leader who would praise and glorify the Fulani at length and with enormous emphasis despite apparently being a national leader.

I'm not under the impression that Awolowo did not have an ethnic agenda because he clearly did, and did not hide it, but if you must have an example of an Awolowo speech where he avoided the pitfall of Yoruba glorification:

Awolowo: I would like to say that this, in my humble opinion, is the first time in the annals of Nigeria that a political party is reared on a really scientific basis.  For if all the leading members in the Action Group have more or less identical conceptions as to the principles which shall guide their activities, and jointly evolve common methods of applying those principles, it is my firm conviction that the organization will be successful and lasting.



Only we must make sure about two things, namely:  that our principles are just, and that our methods are practical.  For nothing defeats their own ends so easily as unjust principles and impractical methods of approach.



With these few remarks, I believe that I have succeeded in portraying to you the rock-sure foundation on which the Action Group is erected.  We are here in this historic Conference to reinforce and to add to the superstructure already built, by the pledge of the leaders inhabiting the two Zones (YORUBA AND MIDWESTERN or WESTERN AND EASTERN) of the Western Region.



It is true we speak different languages;  but it does not require any laborious research to discover that, broadly speaking, we originated from common stock; and that in any event our political and cultural associations have been of such long standing as to make us look upon one another as close relations.  And above all, we are Nigerians whom both Nature and Constitution have joined together.  It is within our power to remain together.



In the first release of the Action Group it  has been made abundantly clear both in item (5) of the aims and objectives and in the body of the release that it is not the intention of the Action Group to embark on Regional politics exclusively.  It is sheer necessity that has compelled us to decide to get together to put our own house in order.



As an earnest of our good faith, the subjects on which policy papers have been prepared are not confined to Regional subjects but cover Central subjects as well.

http://www.dawodu.com/awolowo10.htm

http://www.google.com/search?q=Voice+of+Reason%3A++Selected+Speeches+of+Chief+Obafemi+Awolowo&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbs=bks:1&q=+Selected+Speeches+of+Chief+Obafemi+Awolowo&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=82a567adc72d263b


Obviously one can find nationalistic, non-ethnic speeches by Zik too, but that was not really the point. Can one find ethnic glorification speeches like Zik's among the other pre-independence leaders? Macaulay? Enahoro? Akintola? etc. I can't even find any from Awolowo, a known ethnic chauvinist. If you can find some, please post them. Like I said, I could change my opinion.