₦airaland Forum

Jen33:
Kindly tell us where you were educated so we can discuss who made it possible.

U.S.

Dude spare me your claptrap. Go and research what your country produces. Are you not a Nigerian? Have you no shame to be asking a fellow Nigerian to show you ''proof'' of what and what is produced in your own country? Do a Google and EDUCATE yourself. It's not my job.

I am a Nigerian. Not at all ashamed. Everything that every country produces is not common knowledge. You have to dig for official studies, etc. or just be in the know.

The poster claimed Nigeria did not produce its own refined oil. I told him we did, and mentioned other things Nigeria produces. You need to learn to follow a thread properly.

Does Nigeria refine its own oil? I'm just asking innocently. I'm not an expert on that whole oil sector.

A far higher quality and on a far larger scale than anything we accomplished under British rule.

For more info, visit:

www.google.com

Lol, so could we have been producing quality computers on a significant scale under British rule?

I just asked a few simple questions. If you don' t have the answers, maybe you should take back your assertion.

Jen33:
Show and prove what? The Nigerian govt educated you at public expense. Use that education and do some research.

Uh, it actually didn't.

And you do realize that when someone asserts something with no evidence, the onus is on that person to prove that what they assert is true?

Anyways, what finished products does Nigeria export? And at what quality and/or scale are these chemicals,tires, steel, textiles, buses,cars, and computers being produced and where?

We DO refine oil. We do much more. We produce chemicals, tyres, steel, textiles, buses, cars computers. And we are still moving forward. None of these were possible under the British. ''Economic activity'' under them was confined to building ''groundnut pyramids'' in Kano!

Lol, not my argument, but show n' prove.

I kind of want the capital of Nigeria to be Calabar, but the other half of the country would say that it's too southern.

Calabar is clean compared to Lagos, and not heavily invested with crime.

Then again, Calabar really is an Efik city. Don't know how it could just be hijacked from them like that.

[quote author=EzeUche_ link=topic=599800.msg7686150#msg7686150 date=1297114331]How do you know that he would have gunned down Dr. Michael Okpara? Dr. Okpara was far from corrupt. He was one of the most selfless politicians Nigeria has ever seen. And was much beloved in the entire East.

A man who didn't have a home to his name. Not even in his VILLAGE. And we all know Igbo men take pride in building a home in their village.[/quote]"Ejindu: All right. A lot has been talked and written about the January coup. But how tribalistic was it really in conception and execution?

Nzeogwu: In the North, no. In the South, yes. We were five in number, and initially we knew quite clearly what we wanted to do. We had a short list of people who were either undesirable for the future progress of the country or who by their positions at the time had to be sacrificed for peace and stability. Tribal considerations were completely out of our minds at this stage. But we had a set-back in the execution. Both of us in the North did our best. But the other three who were stationed in the South failed because of incompetence and misguided considerations in the eleventh hour. The most senior among them was in charge of a whole brigade and had all the excuse and opportunity in the world to mobilize his troops anywhere, anyhow and any time. He did it badly. In Lagos, even allowing for one or two genuine mistakes, the job was badly done. The Mid-West was never a big problem. But in the East, our major target, nothing practically was done. He and the others let us down."






Okpara was on the coup plotters hit list. Read the special branch report.


Being beloved in the entire East isn't worth sh1t to a "nationalistic" coup. Balewa and Ahmadu Bello were beloved in the entire North and they were slaughtered like cows. And corruption is not the only reason to eliminate someone if you're a coup plotter. If I recall what I read correctly, the NCNC, under Michael Okpara, stood by the verdict against Awolowo + Enahoro when they were accused of trying to overthrow the government, despite the fact that Awolowo was denied the desired counsel during his trial. Whether Awolowo actually wanted to overthrow the government or just set up a paramilitary wing of the AG is irrelevant since he was viewed as being jailed on trumped up charges and was jailed through an unfair trial.

The coup plotters claimed the reason they didn't kill Okpara was because of the presence of the visiting Archbishop of Cyprus, which shows that those that were in charge of killing Okpara didn't have any guts as they could easily have dragged him away and eliminated him regardless. The coup members in the West and North had no qualms about gunning down people in front of innocent bystanders.

Point is, Nzeogwu would have eliminated people in the East, beloved or not, and Okpara was one of the top people on the chopping block.

This Ikengawo just gets more and more ridiculous each day. Go and read some books boy and stop spewing nonsense over the internet.

The agricultural and industrial revolution.

[quote author=EzeUche_ link=topic=599800.msg7685954#msg7685954 date=1297112071]The violent riots that occurred throughout the Western region. I can understand the riots in the North, but in the Western region, they were totally uncalled for.[/quote]What riots were these? I only know of a few attacks in Lagos.

[quote author=EzeUche_ link=topic=599800.msg7685905#msg7685905 date=1297111673]The revolution was messy, because it was thwarted. Nzeogwu didn't succeed, because of the blunders of some of his compatriots. I believe more heads would have rolled if he was allowed to fully implement his revolution.

I really wish Nzeogwu succeeded. Such a brave man. Truly my hero![/quote]Nzeogwu was a sidekick, like Ademoyega. It was not his revolution.

Anyhow, if he had had his way, he would have gunned down Michael Okpara that you're always praising on here, without a second thought. So much for heroism.

Dede1:
Was Lt Col David Ejoor governor of what state?

I'm not getting this. You're claiming military governors serving under Ironsi is proof that he didn't decrease government of regions mostly by the regions? I'm not sure I buy this argument. If the components of the regions don't have the power to form their own administrations, how are they regional governments? Aren't they just geographical areas with a head who reports to the real government (the federal government) at the center?

And you thought that coal money was not also spent on eastern region?

No. I was saying that the regions had control over a good deal of their resources. The East is included in this.

Did you ever think that war of attrition would have been precipitated on eastern region if crude oil was not struck in the region?

It depends. Gowon would have just pursued it just because he actually believed in one Nigeria, but he might have been overthrown by people like Murtala, Danjuma, etc. if they couldn't get enough support against the East from outside sources to pursue that war of attrition.

Please read the “The Five Majors” by Ben Gbulie and “Why We Struck” by Ademoyaega you will certainly left existence of nefarious nepotism orchestrated by the northern region traditional leaders.

Already read, but I can't recall what matches up specifically with what you said concerning the LGA's and nepotism.

[quote author=EzeUche_ link=topic=599800.msg7685439#msg7685439 date=1297106900]The fact remains that Ahmadu Bello should not have been killed.

All the other politicians were expendable. Okotie-Eboh, Akintola, Balewa etc were all expendable, but Ahmadu Bello was a prize and they should have kept him alive, because he would have proved useful as a bargaining chip.

I will repeat. You do not kill the #2 man for the Sokoto Caliphate. Someone who could have been the Sultan of Sokoto. A direct descendant of Uthman Dan Fodio.

His death spelled the end for the Igbo in the Northern region. Akintola was just a stooge for Balewa.

What I don't understand is why the West reacted in such a manner. Awolowo was freed so why the wahala? Opportunistic?[/quote]How was Balewa expendable? Do you know anything about the man, to be comparing him to Okotie-Eboh? Furthermore, does this even make any sense? If Balewa was not killed, Ironsi wouldn't have dared to make his administration pass any radical changes and there probably might not have been an Ironsi administration for more than a few weeks as Balewa would have immediately called for British help. Since there would have been no radical changes made (as Ironsi did) there would probably have been no July 1966 counter coup.


Concerning Ahmadu Bello, it's okay to keep alive a feudal lord trying to turn Northern Nigeria into the fiefdom of the Sokoto Caliphate over the protests of the Tiv and using the military as his errand boys but okay to murder Okotie-Eboh for bribing unknown and unsubstantiated persons or using government policy to benefit his factory? There's no way anyone that would murder all sorts of less villainous seeming soldiers and politicians would not kill Ahmadu Bello. And for the record, not even a single one of them should have been murdered. Not even Akintola, who was directly responsible for the loss of so many lives in the Western region and it's even more ridiculous to try to justify murders by saying who was or wasn't "expendable."

Dede1:
@PhysicsMHD and Co

Please let be known that Ironsi did not Abolish Regional Governments in Nigeria. There has never been a time federalism flourished in Nigeria. During the so-called first republic, the armed forces and police were controlled by the central government, the most resources of the regions were controlled by federal government and all the air and sea ports are controlled by the government at the center. I guess some folks have serious reading to perform.

There were four regions in federation under Ironsi regime and operated as when under Tafawa. The major difference was the military governors replaced the regional premiers.

Gowon abolished the regions and introduced 12 states in 1967.

The unification decree actual has little or nothing with the system of government. It unified the civil service and vacated the authority of Emirs as found in Local Govt. Authority. The instances of this action terrified the northerners who had benefited from the nepotism perpetrated by machinations of Local Govt. Authority. Most of the beneficiaries of the mentioned nepotism were the coup plotters of July 29, 1966 who wore the uniform of Nigerian army officer which they are not qualified to wash. They really thought that unification of civil service code was a tactical approach to kick them out of the army.

1. Then who did abolish the regions? Why do I have the feeling that this is just semantics? This wouldn't be the first time.  

2. What was the post-1960 Western region doing spending so much of that cocoa money only on the Western region if some super-powerful federal government was actually controlling each region's resources? To the best of my knowledge, they were not stopped in spending it only on themselves. Same with groundnut for the North.

3. A decree with abolishes regional governments has nothing to do with system of government? Please explain.

4. Can you provide any evidence concerning these Emirs exploiting LGA's for nepotistic acts and what relation this could have to the motivations of the July counter-coup plotters?


5. How was the civil service divided in such a way that the Emirs and/or Northern soldiers were separate and able to exploit the system for corrupt or nepotistic practices that they would be unable to practice when the civil service of all the regions were united? If a Northern civilian government came to power at the center after Ironsi's change of civil service and LGA's, what would stop that Northern led federal government from not only re-instituting nepotism, but possibly applying it over a wider spread than just the north - for example,  appointing some unqualified Northern relative of an Emir or Fulani nobility as some commissioner or official in Lagos, Port Harcourt, Benin, Enugu etc.?

Isn't it obvious that the only way that could possibly be stopped  would be if a regional government in the West, East, and Midwest had some degree of independent authority and prevented this northern civilian government from doing so? But when you eliminate all authority independent of the center, no major group can be stopped from doing so - "Hausa=Fulanis." Yorubas, and of course, Igbos. Perhaps you can now see what the Northerners saw. Nobody thought too highly of Ironsi after his governance - not Ojukwu (read Emeka, where he lets Forsyth just portray Ironsi as a dummy), not Nwobosi, not Ademoyega, and Victor Banjo thought Ironsi's actions proved he was so stupid he needed to be eliminated  (and Banjo attempted to do it himself but was caught) without any concerns about LGA's or nepotism.

Great man. R.I.P.





Sir Abel Guobadia, OFR (Officer of the Federal Republic), born June 28, 1932 in Benin City, Nigeria is an Educationist, Administrator, Diplomat and retired public servant.[1]


Education

Abel Guobadia attended C.M.S. Primary Schools in Benin City (1939 -1945); Government College, Ibadan (1946 - 1951); University College Ibadan (1952 - 1957). In 1962, he won a scholarship for graduate studies in the United States and was awarded the Ph. D in Solid State Physics from the University of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA in 1966.[1]
[edit] Career

Prior to enroling for his Ph. D, Abel Guobadia began his career as a Physics teacher at Osogbo Grammar School (1957); Ilesha Grammar School (1958); Government College Ughelli (1958 - 1959); Edo College, Benin City (1960); Government College Ibadan (1960 - 1961) and the University of Nigeria, Nsukka (1961 - 1962). From 1966 - 1971, Dr. Guobadia was a Senior Lecturer and Head of Department of Physics at the University of Lagos, Nigeria.[1]

Guobadia worked at Nigeria's National Universities Commission throughout most of the 1970s and early 1980s and rose to the position of Director of Academic Planning and subsequently, Executive Secretary of the Commission. In 1983, Dr. Guobadia helped the University of Benin, Benin City establish a Consultancy Services Unit and became the pioneer Director of the Unit.[1]

In January 1984, Guobadia was appointed Commissioner of Education for the defunct Bendel State of Nigeria under the military administration of then Brigadier Jeremiah Useni. Later in 1986, the Colonel John Mark Inienger military administration appointed him the Bendel State Commissioner of Finance and Economic Planning.[citation needed] In 1987, President Ibrahim Babangida appointed Abel Guobadia Nigeria's first resident Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary to the Republic of Korea.[2] Upon retirement, Abel Guobadia floated a private educational consulting firm, Advanced Educational Services Limited, that was responsible for developing academic programs for several universities in Nigeria. Abel Guobadia and Professor T. M. Yesufu played an influential role in the establishment of the Igbinedion University, Okada in Edo State, Nigeria.[citation needed]

In 2000, the government of President Olusegun Obasanjo appointed Guobadia Nigeria's Chief Electoral Officer. Dr. Guobadia was confirmed as the Chairman of Nigeria's Independent National Electoral Commission by the Nigerian Senate in May 2000.[3] Guobada retired from this position in May 2005 becoming the first, and so far, only Chairman of the Electoral Commission since Nigeria's independence in 1960, to complete his tenure.

Abel Guobadia has served as Chairman and/or member of many boards including that of the New Nigeria Bank, West African Examinations Council and the Nigerian Standards Organization. He has served in several capacities on Governing Councils of several Universities in Nigeria. Guobadia was former Pro-Chancellor and Chairman of Council of the Edo State University, Ekpoma. Abel Guobadia was the President of the Science Teachers Association of Nigeria (STAN) from 1971 to 1976 and remains an honorary life fellow of STAN. He is a Special Member of the Senate of the University of Benin, Benin City.[citation needed]

In seeking to advance the development of his cosmopolitan Edo community in mid-western Nigeria, Guobadia worked as the Secretary of the Benin Forum and Chairman of the Edo Forum respectively from 1992 to 2000. Currently, Abel Guobadia serves as Chairman, Board of Trustees of a prominent non-governmental organisation, Women's Health and Action Research Centre (WHARC) located in Benin City, Nigeria.[4]

Mobinga:
Northerners

Don't know about that.


If he had made his administration just a caretaker administration, he probably wouldn't have been killed.

daamerican: Wow, I can't believe what I'm seeing. There is more hate on this website than stormfront (which is the white nationalist web site) Tisk, Tisk Nigeria.

Bet you would know all about that, given your hateful tendencies.

How is PDP comparable to republicans?

How is ACN comparable to republicans? (I thought that what little political ideology ACN has is left leaning, anyways)

What socialist views does Buhari have?




@ topic, Bakare seems like someone with integrity, interesting.

Who's the devil?

Mobinga:
So close to the devil. Thats why he was brutally killed.

Who?

Wow, great videos Max. Thanks for posting these.

Some questions, though.

1. Why, in your view, did Ironsi abolish the regions and centralize all government?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-595963.0.html

2. Was the Sardauna or NNDP in fact planning to crush opposition in the West militarily and was the officer that was murdered in the hotel referenced in the first video Largema? Was he sent with troops to crush protesters or was that a rumor?

3. Was Festus Okotie-Eboh as corrupt as he is made out to be (as in that first video, where they said he raised taxes on imports of shoes to help his own shoe business)? I read elsewhere that he was one of the richest men in Nigeria (worth 800,000 pounds) before government, i.e. that he made his fortune legitimately, but I don't know how true that is either.

4. In that second video, how do they know the people aren't celebrating only that Awolowo and Enahoro were released rather than the coup?

5. Where is the footage of Nzeogwu?

Is there supposed to be sound on the 2nd and 3rd videos?

[quote author=tpiah* link=topic=597345.msg7659472#msg7659472 date=1296735404]it's amazing how few intelligent humans there are like you on nl.

what we usually see are a bunch of daft misfits who got dashed a visa somewhere, and they somehow think receiving a visa automatically confers intelligence and common sense.

thanks for your explanation.

yorubas say abo oro la nso fomoluwabi.

i knew there were people of ghanaian origin in ivory coast, and i suspect the sabre rattler is one of them, hence it's rather hypocritical of him to start threatening immigrants.[/quote]Akan people have been in the area which became the colony and then country called Ivory coast for hundreds of years. They are not immigrants. That saber rattler is unlikely to be an immigrant.

[quote author=Sagamammoth, the fat public library philosopher]You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

You don't know the practice of Yan daudu is based on spiritual beliefs? It is like an occult based on tradition and done in a secretive way.

" These ‘yan daudu sell various foods at ceremonies, mainly luxury foods such as fried chicken, and serve as pimps for love-peddlers. Women who attend Hausa Bori rituals are deemed to be love-peddlers. Renée Pittin (1983) lists three activities for ‘yan daudu: procuring, cooking, and prostitution. She argues that there is a close tie between love-peddlers and ‘yan daudu. Moreover, in combining male and female roles, the ‘yan daudu mediate between men and women, occupying an ambiguous category. Living among the love-peddlers further provides a disguise for men seeking homosexual activity. Protection and discretion are provided through this arrangement. The Bori cult provides a niche for marginal people of all kinds, not simply women or homosexuals. Butchers, night-soil workers, musicians, and poor farmers are welcome there. Mentally disturbed people of all classes similarly seek refuge among the Bori devotees."

http://www.jmmsweb.org/issues/volume1/number1/pp45-54

People are superstitious, does not necessarily mean it is seen as ideal or accepted as normal. Does the fact some cultures in Southern Africa believe people can heal themselves by having se.x with a virgin child mean paedophilia is or should be accepted? Or the fact that people use humans for rituals based on superstition mean it is accpetable?[/quote]I’m dying of laughter here. How hard would it have been to think about your very own post? What is spiritual about gay men joining a mostly female possession cult and cooking and selling chicken and acting as pimps or love-peddlers? The yan dauda is distinct from the shamans of the yan bori. The yan dauda is not a spiritual role:


“Fremont Besmer (1983) discussed in greater detail a possession “cult” among the
(generally Islamic and urban) Hausa that is strikingly similar to New World possession
cults among those of West Africa descent, and is ”generally regarded as the displaced
religious tradition of the pre-Islamic Hausa.”.
32
As in Haitian voudou(n),
33
the
metaphor for those possessed by spirits is horses ridden” by the spirit. Homosexual
transvestites in the Hausa bori cult are called ‘Yan Daudu, son of Daudu. Daudu is a
praise name for any Galadima (a ranked title), but specifically refers to the bori spirit
Dan Galadima (literally, son of Galadima; the Prince),who is] said to be ” a handsome
young man, popular with women, a spendthrift, and a gambler” (Besmer 1983:30n4).
Joseph Greenberg (1941:56) noted that ”the group of Hausa spirits known as ‘Yan
Dawa, ‘children of the forest’ have their counterpart in the Dahomey aziza, the
Bambara (of Mali) kokolo,
34
and the Yoruba divinity Arnoi.” According to Besmer
(1983:18) ’Yan Daudu are not possessed by Dan Galadima, and are not possessed by
other spirits when he is present. Instead, they make and sell ”luxury snacks” -- i.e.,
more expensive, more prestigious food such as fried chicken,” (Pittin 1983:297).
35
‘Yan Daudu also operate as intermediaries between (female) love-peddlers and prospective
clients.
In his ethnography of Hausa possession religion, Fremont Besmer (1983:18) wrote:
”Women provide the bulk of membership for the cult and are stereotyped as
love-peddlers” (also see Smith 1954:64, Hill 1967:233). Pittin reported
The economic enterprises of the ‘Yan Daudu are centered on three related activities: procuring,
cooking, and prostitution. Procuring, the mobilisation of women for illicit sexual purposes,
clearly demands close ties between the procurer and the women. The ’dan daudu [sing.], in
his combination of male and female roles, can and does mediate between men and women in
this context. (1983:296)


Anyhow, when did I make the claim that toleration of gay behavior was based not on superstition or was based on rationality? More diversionary arguments.

Sagameasle: You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

Whatever tolerance Africans have most likely was ritualistic, that was why I said it was cultural. They overlooked it mainly based on superstition, not accepted it as some form of social parity of being normal.

Hilarious. The very first example of tolerance I posted was not ritualistic but just their way of life. Anyways, read on and try not to sh1t yourself too hard:

“David Greenberg (1988:87) reported interviewing Eva Meyerowitz
about her observations among Ashanti and other Akan peoples in what was the British
Gold Coast colonybetween the 1920s and 1940s:
At that time men who dressed as women and engaged in homosexual relations with other men
were not stigmatized, but accepted. There were good reasons for Akan men to become women,
she commented -- the status of women among the matrilineal Akan was exceptionally high. The
situation may have changed later, she thought, as a result of missionary activity.
47
Hutchinson (1861:129-30) mentioned male slaves, who were treated as lovers, wore
pearl necklaces with gold pendants. They were killed when their Ashanti masters died.”



“In an earlier report on another Kongo people, the Bangala, Weeks (1909: 448-9)
reported that mutual self-service was common and that sodomy was“very common,
and is regarded with little or no shame. It generally takes place when men are visiting
strange towns or during the time they are fishing at camps away from their women.”
Herman Soyaux (1879, vol. 2:59) also attributed boy-love to the lengthy business trips
made by Bangala men, unaccompanied by their wives. As Karsch-Haack (1911) noted,
this explanation begs the question of why the Bangala travelers do not strike up
acquaintances with women as well as with boy, and inferred that although many
Mabara make good business profits from their marriages, their real passion is for boys.
Although pressing considerably beyond the circumscribed ethnographic record and eager
to find such alternative valuations, Karsch-Haack’s inference is not without plausibility.
From north of the Congo River, Karsch-Haack also elicited from Günther Tessman
the assertion that the Loanga were known to other groups as major poisoners and
pederasts. Tessman had observed male favorites being free of burdens when even the
chief carried loads.”

“As mentioned earlier (Driberg 1923:210) passed on Lango assertions that
homosexual conduct was very common among neighboring groups, specifically the Iteso
and Karamojan. Similarly, further south (in southwestern Uganda) Mushanga
(1973:181) reported that Nkole informants told him that the Bahima (but not any
Nkole) practice homosexuality.
In the old kingdom of Rwanda, Maquet (1961: 77- reported that male homosexuality
was common among Hutu and Tutsi youth, especially among young Tutsi
being trained at court, i.e., they were made sexually available to guests at court. Johnson
(1986:29) wrote
Mutabaruka, a 19-year-old [Tutsi] college student told me that, traditionally, in his tribe there
was an extended period during which boys lived apart from the rest of the village while they are
training to be warriors, during which very emotional, and often sexual, relationships were struck
up,  “Sometimes these relationships lasted beyond adolescence into adulthood,” he told me.
Watusi still have a reputation for bisexuality in the cities of East Africa.”

Sagachimp: You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

If you do not have an idea of governments work, shut up!

What you see in public is not the ALL. There will be alot of activities and phone calls behind the scene. Mooooron!!! Haven't you been reading some of the wikileaks?

Dumbo, you think it is everything that is done in diplomatic circles that is revealed? Was it what the Palestinian negotiators were actually negotiating with Isreal that was disclosed in public statements? You think all the details of corruption they have against the likes of Atiku, Odili etc will not be used against them to ensure the West get what they want from time to time? Reeetard!

ROFL. Israel (Isreal? Why do so many people think it's spelled Isreal? Dyslexic?), Palestine, Wikileaks, Peter Odili, etc, have come into the picture now!

The tin foil hats are on and functioning I see! Who said anything about Western diplomats never holding private meetings with African leaders? I said the tripe about Western governments stopping criminalization of homosexual activities during clandestine meetings is laughable when there is so much open pressure and open condemnation (such as that which tilted Uganda toward dropping their death penalty clause) and I mocked the idea of an unseen gay cabal/gay mafia  being mainly responsible for trying to foist toleration of gayness down Africans' throats!

But now it's Western diplomats trying to force tolerance down African leaders throats during private meetings!  Nice one there Sagaminstrel. Get it through your head that there is so much open Western pressure (such as the E.U. bill to cut aid to Uganda) and condemnation on African countries to desist from further anti-gay laws when they try to pass them that asserting that clandestine, secret meetings are actually responsible  for stopping criminalization of various homosexual activities remains a laughable  tin foil hat conspiracy from a brainless  London sewer rat, 

I bet Sagamacaque will  now state that during all these secret meetings between pro-gay U.S., E.U., etc. diplomats and Ugandan politicians to stop the bill making people of the same sex who get married liable to receive the death penalty in Uganda, the Western diplomats would somehow go there only to argue that the death penalty should be removed from the bill, but not “clandestinely stop” the modified bill which gave life in jail for same sex marriage, which is still on the table and could be passed any day and not get the country to overturn the jail terms for non-marriage homosexual activity. So much for secret pro-gay diplomats storming Africa and stopping anti-homosexuality laws.


Sagamite, preventing the gay terrorists from invading his brain with pro-gay radio waves.

You are a moooron! What is primitive about intellectual bashing?”

Sagamite, your whole approach is neanderthal-like.  You give the impression of a caveman pounding  on his keyboard in fury in every discussion.  Tone it down, and discuss issues in a more civil fashion and you won't earn so much contempt from others.

Katsumoto:
Of course in the court of Law we must always really on the suspect to confess to his crime before he can be found guilty. We ignore all the evidence, statistical, analogical, and circumstantial.

You are quite right with the following
1. Only the non-Igbo members of government were corrupt. The Igbo members were saints
2. Ifeajuna went to have tea with Okpara after killing Balewa
3. Only Igbo officers were over-looked for promotion after 1962 in favour of the quota system. No Yoruba officers were overlooked. 
4. The election which brought Zik into the government with Balewa and which resulted in juicy appointments for Ndigbo was not rigged, it was only the election which resulted in less appointments for Ndigbo that was rigged
5. Secession which could have led to war was obviously easier than organising a coup. Of course we all know that the secession bid which followed in 67 was actually easier then the failed coup.
6. No one claimed Ifeajuna was Zik's cousin. Not even Ajuluchukwu who was Zik's right hand man said it. He only mentioned it in his dream
7. The Igbo republican nature was superior to the cultures in the North and as such a bloodbath of personnel from the North and West was the way to bring them in line since their cultures permitted them to be subservient to more senior members of their societies. But of course, British trained soldiers did not have the training to be sensitive to others whose ways were different from theirs.
8. The July 66 coup was also not ethnically motivated. It was pure coincidence that Murtala and co targeted those that they did.


I hope my sarcasm did not fly over anyone's head.


BTW, Your posts are rather too long and convoluted. Responding to them can be laborious and ignoring them may seem like one as acquiesced to your argument. Please keep them brief and to the point. This post is in response to the long one you posted above.

I am not going to go back and forth; we just have to agree to disagree, so I may not reply to another long post. 

1. Didn't say that. Said they were low-priority which they would have to be from the political perspective of the coupists. How can you read the alleged grievances of the coup plotters and possibly think the Igbo politicians were not low priority?
2. Who knows what he did? I really want to see evidence of what he did there that implicates Okpara, when nobody ever implicated Okpara when it would have been so easy to if you were on the opposing side politically or ethnically (a Northerner). Is this information about Ifeajuna visiting Okpara only recently released (after Okpara's death)? Just a question.
3. Two-thirds of officer positions were going to Easterners without quota. I think we both know which ethnic group the majority of these Easterners belonged to. Upon the defiance of quota by Ironsi, the majority of promotions were going to Easterners who every objective commentator admits were highly qualified.
4. When the population figures (census) were rigged, both AG and the East protested (see Nwankwo and Ifejika's book). These population figures gave the North the advantage that ensured that they beat the AG. The NCNC had a wider appeal than the AG, from the 50s to that first election, so the NCNC outdid the AG. When the election that brought Zik and Balewa into government occurred, I don't recall Awolowo or anybody else protesting and claiming rigging, but I would gladly take correction on this.
5. I said that a thinly stretched squadron of soldiers is a difficult way to go about a successful takeover of the country, and lo and behold, they failed. Apparently these unnamed (only insinuated) Igbo masterminds are so clever as to be able to think up the coup but not smart enough to realize that they need a reasonable force to succeed in a coup. Please do not compare a secession bid made under duress while the military is fully in the hands of the North and with the whole country trying to keep the seceding element in the country to a few intellectuals trying to formally withdraw from the Nigerian state through peaceful means while Igbos are at some top positions in the military and politics and not under the threat of being overrun by a more militarily powerful neighbor. I never said secession would be so easy, but yes, easier than taking over a country for any significant amount of time without numerical superiority, powerful allies within the country and an adequate initial force.
6. I already asked for  the source of this claim and you gave me a link to Omoigui. If it was Ajuluchukwu that said it, you only had to provide the link (or a short part of the quote if from a book) or at least name who made the claim. I accept that he was his cousin now, but that doesn't significantly change anything because the tip itself remains an unproved allegation from a phantom source. We already know Ifeajuna was "sentimental" but the idea that Zik would knowingly sneak away and let his colleagues all get murdered while he left the country is a sufficiently weighty accusation that needs some actual evidence.
7. I am actually not some sort of proponent of the "Igbo republican nature was superior to others" argument nor a supporter of that view and I know you are purposely trivializing the  reasonable observation I made with regard to the excess of political soldiers among the Igbos and the poverty of such among other groups, but please don't turn my views into what they are not. I don't support the coup, and was quite surprised by the fact that so many Nigerians view these guys as heroes. I think it's wishful thinking. When I read in that Omoigui article how Balewa was leaning towards releasing Awolowo from prison and seeking a peaceful resolution of the Western crisis without excessive force, it only strengthened my belief in the coup as being the root of many of Nigeria's later problems.
8. Didn't say that. I've never stated anywhere that the July 1966 counter coup was not ethnically motivated.

Sorry about the post length previously, but some situations are sufficiently complex that they cannot be properly discussed only with neat little numbered lists.

daamerican:
Define and enlightened about africa? I'm not the one typing Latin characters in a foreign language because my ancestors where too lazy to come up with their own writing system(s).

When Africans start tolerating homosexuals en masse or having widespread good governance or being socially "enlightened", will that mean that suddenly our ancestors did come up with their own writing system(s)? What relevance does this have to your initial comments? Dullard.

And what does this have to do with your hatred of Africans due to Africans' intolerance of homosexuality, among other things? That was the lack of refinement I was talking about. The "they're all this or that awful way" mentality when applied to some group.  It's one of the very roots of homophobia. I called you unrefined and unenlightened because you're basically a hypocrite and a bigot.

There are many reasons I talk poo about Africa it's mainly because I want/ expect better for you all. But that's a different story.

It's a non-existent story and a moronic fairytale. I can spot hatred and contempt a mile away. Keep your  sh1t talking to yourself.

1.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Uganda "According to the Pew Global Attitudes Project poll in 2007, 96% of Ugandans said that homosexuality should be rejected by society, making it one of the highest rejection of homosexuality in the 45 countries surveye"

And? Africa is 60 - 80 years behind the developed world. Statistics like that are not an inherently Ugandan thing. They're comparable to a 1930s or 1950s Western opinions. Some people are trying to progress, but instead of any genuine advice or appeals for change you come to talk trash and degrade them. It's not helping when loony Western evangelicals come and reinforce their prejudices.

2.Aid to egypt should/will be cut if their new government is hostile to Israel, the simple fact that you ALL rely on aid from whites is a joke in the first place. Sure America and Europe have some differences but I hardly doubt any western country would support this act of genocide.

I actually agree with you on the aid, thing. That alone tells the scale of failure in many (but not all) African countries.

You completely evaded my question because it reveals how little thought you put into your assertion that every African country would just modify its laws for aid to fit the West's when the West can't agree on whether gays should get married, whether criminals should be put to death, how drug possession or selling should be penalized, etc.

3. No THIS  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euXQbZDwV0w is the reason gays are hated in uganda. General misunderstanding, and generalization.  Anti gay activist in America still know the difference between not accepting someones life style, and letting them live their lives. (once again you can all learn something from whites.)

Anti-gay activists? So they get to be called activists if they are western but what are they called if they're African legislators? Just be quiet.

"In many parts of the world, including much of the European Union and United States, acts of violence are legally classified as hate crimes, which entail harsher sentences if convicted. In some countries, this form of legislation extends to verbal abuse as well as physical violence.

Violent hate crimes against LGBT people tend to be especially brutal, even compared to other hate crimes: "an intense rage is present in nearly all homicide cases involving gay male victims". It is rare for a victim to just be shot; he is more likely to be stabbed multiple times, mutilated, and strangled. "They frequently involved torture, cutting, mutilation,  showing the absolute intent to rub out the human being because of his (sexual) preference".[25] In a particularly brutal case in the United States, on March 14, 2007, in Wahneta, Florida, 25-year-old Ryan Keith Skipper was found dead from 20 stab wounds and a slit throat. His body had been dumped on a dark, rural road less than 2 miles from his home. His two alleged attackers, William David Brown, Jr., 20, and Joseph Eli Bearden, 21, were indicted for robbery and first-degree murder. Highlighting their malice and contempt for the victim, the accused killers allegedly drove around in Skipper's blood-soaked car and bragged of killing him. According to a sheriff's department affidavit, one of the men stated that Skipper was targeted because "he was a gay."[26]

In Canada in 2008, police-reported data found that approximately 10% of all hate crimes in the country were motivated by sexual orientation. Of these, 56% were of a violent nature. In comparison, 38% of all racially motivated offenses were of a violent nature.[26]

In the same year in the United States, according to FBI data, though 4,704 crimes were committed due to racial bias and 1,617 were committed due to sexual orientation, only one murder and one forcible violation were committed due to racial bias, whereas five murders and six despoils were committed based on sexual orientation.[27] In Northern Ireland in 2008, 160 homophobic incidents and 7 transphobic incidents were reported. Of those incidents, 68.4% were violent crimes; significantly higher than for any other bias category. By contrast, 37.4% of racially motivated crimes were of a violent nature.[26]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people#cite_note-FBI_Table_4-26


Show me one study by the UN, or Pew research center or any other think tank, or any NGO study or any scholarly study which shows many gays (hundreds or thousands or more) having crimes committed against them in any one sub-Saharan country in Africa in a year. I'll give you a week.


This is what your western anti-gay activists are responsible for:

"Data concerning young homosexuals is somewhat unreliable. It appears that about one in three teen aged suicides is by a gay or lesbian. Since homosexuals represent only about 5% of the population, gays and lesbians are greatly over-represented."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#cite_note-115


Apparently we can learn how to assault and murder gays in different brutal ways and learn how to increase our teenage suicide rate.

I'm also glad you didn't bother to deny being a racist. A LOT of racists hate gays, yet you didn't see the hypocrisy in being a racist and yet being pissed off about discrimination towards gays.

Pipe down about what you don't know you fool. I can't imagine how somebody is dumb enough to come lecture Africans about their unjust hate for gay Africans when you loathe and hate Africans to begin with. Does that even make any sense? Don't reproduce. Your type is a blight on humanity.





@ topic

if this hasn't already been posted, an update:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12348950

What Hausa thread did I get agitated over?

I'm seriously confused.

fstranger1:
Mehn, it sure looks as though you dont take hostages. You kill everything in your path.

Good

Good

Good!!!

Pls, I need a quick advice from you: I am applying to college next year and I want to attend a solid school. I have applied to mostly American schools, but my parent want me to apply to some top notch UK schools, but I am not sure which one to apply to, which of the top schools in UK would you advise I apply to?    


I have been hearing about a school called person Bristol University, mostly on this thread, would you advise me to apply to person Bristol? What can I expect from a school like Bristol university? In your opinion, based on what you have seen and heard, how would you compare Bristol University with American schools? Side by side with American schools, does Bristol produce well rounded graduates? I am asking all these questions because I want to come out of any college I eventually settle for well rounded with very rich vocabulary, besides words like cretin, person, and mo-ron

LMAO.

If you can't get into Bristol,  settle for Cornell. Somebody said it's at least on the same tier as Bristol so you should get a similar quality academic experience, similar quality environment, similar quality research opportunities, etc.

daamerican:
This is in response to katsumoto.
1. Killed by a his gay lover? That's the same BS cops use to say to gays in this country before we got our civil rights.
This man was killed due to intolerance and hate, you are in denial if you think otherwise. And actions of a few? Majority of the people in Uganduhhhhhh are very homophobic and violent towards gays this isn't just one or two isolated incidents.  

2. Yes.

3. Oh, there are many senseless murders in the west but we actually try to catch murders when they kill people.
I wonder how many war criminals are running around your continent at the moment.

4. can someone tell me how to quote on this board, this is getting annoying.



And to the other guy who quotes me it's ok for you guys not to car if he died.
After all no one cares when theres a genocide or civil war in your poorly lead countries.
Your cities and culture will never develop with thinking like that.
Hey lets face it you guys will never make a world class city or society.

Hmmmmm. . . .I'm not Katsumoto, but this caught my eye.

1. Sure, I could believe this. But prove it (with regards to what cops used to say to gays in America). Also, the man who lived with David Kato is on the run, so it's not clear cut that "his gay lover killed him" is complete BS.

2. Why not suspend aid to Egypt and Pakistan first? It's entirely plausible that they have more laws that conflict with Western ideals than Uganda. I also wonder which set of Western laws would be used. The U.S. practices the death penalty. Some apparently more refined groups of Westerners across the pond think that that is barbarity. Which one should they go with? Which one should Uganda modify their laws to get aid from? The ones that are actually "morally right" or the ones that dole out the most cash? Answer honestly.

3. There is an investigation underway, actually. If you had bothered to read the link in the very first post of this thread the police arrested one suspect and are on the lookout for another who's on the run. And to the best of my knowledge the attempted "death penalty for the gays" bill in Uganda was ignited by an anti-gay Western evangelical group who said gays threatened to destroy the African family. (http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/09/0083101). I wonder if the pot (West) and kettle (others) are not both black, or if you just like to talk sh1t to people in third world countries.

4. There is an "insert quote" button near the top right of every previous poster's response.


Hmmm. . .reminds of a statement from way back. . .

davidylan: No one is hostile to or prejudiced against gays. Infact many gays who are white ARE DISCRIMINATORY to blacks. "driving/shopping while black" is still a huge problem in the US . . . there is no such thing for gays. Infact its politically correct to be overly fawning of gays.

So what exactly does the term homophobia mean?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-279591.544.html#msg3991676

bawomolo: lol@davidylan singling out the white homosexual community.  

fear isn't a good thing

davidylan: not singling out but making a valid point. A lot of white gays who whinge about homophobia are racist to blacks. That is a fact.

So which is the real "phobia"? Who is discriminating against gays? Blacks are far less likely to get high-profile jobs than openly gay whites. FACT!

The bold has been my experience too. Got into a pretty ugly "discussion" (shouting match) with some gay white guy and a few of his friends my second semester of college. Got into an even more heated altercation with some gay RA my floor had my junior year of college. Guy was so blatantly racist I nearly slapped the sh1t out of that guy, but had to restrain myself and just wore him down debating his moronic views.

And yet I've learned to look past those people and not use that incident to define how I view all gays.

It's unfortunate that "daamerican" is so much less refined and enlightened than myself with regard to his views on Africans.

Katsumoto:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

LWKMD

You can keep conjecturing; I will keep relating to the facts.

Well the truth is that you are conjecturing.

Almost every single one of your facts are stated with an accompanying implicit conjecture about their significance, otherwise you would not bother to group these incidents together in the way you did. It's just strategic insinuation.

Without these implicit conjectures, that list does not have the import or implications of an Igbo coup.

Sagamite:
You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

You mean some gays will be known and living as a couple pre-1990 and it was TOLERATED in NIGERIA?

You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

Because there was no "gay police" that means it was ignored or no one would be jailed if found to be openly gay? Stewpid argument!!! So was a "gay police" force then set up after 1990?

I mocked the idea of gay police since you were the one that claimed that any gay would be jailed even without anti-homosexuality laws being in existence. How would they be jailed dumbass?  You can’t even grasp sarcasm and you’re interpreting mockery literally. The existence of tolerated gay Hausas has already been established so now show evidence of even one Nigerian being fined or jailed for gayness prior to the 90s and 2000s and I’ll believe your conjecture that “we had established it was wrong and disgusting” and your further claim that any known homosexuals would have been jailed (by WHO?)  even without any prohibitive laws being in the penal code.

Now:
“I accept that there is no Yoruba role in which homosexuality is an expected
feature.
44
It seems to me that Yoruba (Christian and “traditional”) “natural sex” is
contrasted to the corruption of Islamicized Hausa in the same way highland (mostly
Christian) Kenyans Kikuyu view their sexuality as evidence of their moral superiority
to coastal (Islamicized) perceived acceptance of transvestitic homosexuality, and that
this difference has over time increasingly become a “marker” in ethnic-religious conflict
in colonial and post-colonial multiethnic states (in invidious contrast to English as well
as against Muslim rivals). While contrasting most Hausas’ ready acknowledgment that
homosexuality (including gossip about the involvement of “big men”) exists in
Hausaland with many Yorubas’ denial that there is any Yoruba conception or practice,
Rudolf Gaudio
categorically reject[s] the idea that there is no homosexual self-identity in contemporary Yoruba
communities. I met at least two Yoruba self-identified ‘gay’ men in Kano, neither of whom
had ever lived abroad, who told me about the many other ‘gays’ they knew in such cities as
Ilorin, Ibadan, and, of course, Lagos where there is a ‘Gentleman’s Alliance’ with pan-Southern
menbership. My Kano Yoruba contacts told me that GA members have private parties at each
other’s homes, and that there is a division of Yoruba gay male social circles into ‘kings’ and
‘queens. . . When I asked one of these Yoruba ‘queens’ whether there was any Yoruba
equivalent to the Hausa ’yan daudu, he said that no, Yoruba queens had more ‘respect’ than the
’yan daudu, insofar as Yoruba queens keep their outrageous, feminine behaviors a secret from
other people. (personal communication, 13 March 1997)
45”

http://semgai.free.fr/doc_et_pdf/africa_A4.pdf


It should be obvious from the quote above that gayness is not really in Yoruba culture (despite the existence of a few contemporary (recent) gays) and that the few Yoruba gays that there are are in the closet but it should equally be clear that many Hausa gays are KNOWN. There is or was even a gay community in Kano. Where are all the pre-Sharia arrests Sagamite? These are Hausa men who were calling other men their boyfriends (couples) and nobody was doing anything about it. Where are all the jailed Hausas? Are they not Nigerians?

And from what I read, even after the anti-homosexuality law was formally codified, there was a gay party (in the sense of a celebration, not a political party) in Kano in 1994, centered around one gay who went by the nickname of Madhuri (from a Bollywood film, a female Indian name) and his lover. Members of the Muslim Brotherhood tried to “intervene”, but the police – yes, that’s right, the official enforcers of the law – intervened and protected the gay men from the mob and did NOT jail the gays.


You’re claiming that the onus is on me to provide proof that no gay would be jailed in earlier times when the onus is actually on you to prove or provide evidence that gays were jailed prior to recent decades since you are the one making the assertion (that no one could have been openly gay and not jailed, regardless of the existence or non-existence of prohibitive laws), not me.

You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

What has the rubbish you put up got to do with Nigeria? So because something is done, maybe as a culture, amongst a tribe somewhere in Africa, that means all Africans or even all people of that host country of that tribe tolerate it?

Why were you so daft to address such shyt to me?

Sagamoron, you specifically said “we had established that it was wrong” in a discussion in which the West was supposedly trying to shove gay tolerance down the throats of Africa and others. Please desist from implying that I said all Africans or all Africans in any one country tolerate homosexuality. I am well aware of the existence of pre-colonial laws against homosexuality in parts of Africa and I specifically said that in pre-colonial Africa there was either a) tolerance b) obliviousness or c) laws against homosexuality. You were actually the one that made the blanket grouping and assumption in both comments when you claimed that Africa was having gay tolerance shoved down their throats by the West when we (and not just one specific ethnic group) had already established that it was wrong and disgusting. My point is that “we” might only be you and your immediate neighbors in your city/region or your culture or me and my immediate neighbors, but I see why you would deliberately try to distort my position to help your weak argument.

You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

You mean the likes of Obama and other Western countries would not secretly have put pressure on an African government to not put those laws up? They will not have threatened with aid, loss of international support for international benefits like seat on UN security council or political appointments, or exposing or seizing of loot of public officials that do not stop it?

You think the West did not get involved when the gays in Malawi were jailed and Ban Ki Moon was there the next day and obtained a pardon from the President in 24 hours?

You are a Moooron!

Comprehension problems, Saga ape?

This is laughable.  I made no such claim about pressure not being applied. I mocked the idea of a Western “gay mafia” storming Africa and being responsible for “clandestinely stopping and sweeping under the carpet” the criminalization of homosexuality in Nigeria/Africa . Nothing was secretly done. The U.S.  and other members of the international community openly came out and put pressure (the U.S. State Department came out openly to criticize the bill, for example) when Nigeria first put forward the idea of passing the same sex marriage ban. They also put pressure when Uganda criminalized same sex marriage (after already successfully banning homosexuality).   I can’t believe you’re so daft as to think some covert “gay mafia” acting clandestinely are responsible for anything.  The U.S. and other Western countries have OPENLY put pressure on African countries, such as when they threatened loss of aid OPENLY to Uganda when Uganda tried to pass a stronger law which could possibly result in homosexuals receiving the death penalty.

You can’t even grasp that I was mocking your paranoia and fear and how it was making you go to irrational lengths by imagining secret pro gay cabals working in the shadows. Sagamidget is probably in his musty London apartment writing pamphlets warning society about the Gay Knights Templar and their quest for the Homosexual Grail. Fu-cking tin foil hat  wearing, conspiratorial, sewer rat.

You are a person!!!

You are what

You are a person!!!

Say: "Yes sir!!!"

Cretin!!!

Thank God, you know your SAT scores does not validate you intellect. You would have got serious bashing. Fooooooooooool!

The part in bold sounds particularly goon-like so I decided to highlight for no other reason than to let other readers of this thread see the kind of creature I have been dealing with. Contrast Sagamite's true, angry, animal like display seen here with the forced pedantry he exhibited earlier with his "exemplar in the arcane art of ratiocinating" babble. What happened to the excelling in the "art of ratiocinating," now you just want to bash? How primitive.

Also, Sagarangutan, you’re the one who injected into this discussion the insinuation that my SAT score and (your guess of) my admission to Cornell were connected with my ability to reason. 

Adieu Sagababoon.

Adieu.

Katsumoto:
You are actually proving my point; was that not sufficient motive to label it an ethnically motivated coup? Igbo officers were passed over for promotion to support the quota system. Were Yoruba officers like Obasanjo, Adekunle, and Rotimi not passed over for promotion as well?

I am actually not proving your point here.

Stop and think harder about it.

A simple hypothetical should illustrate my point:

You are 1 of 14 athletes in segregated late 1950s South Carolina and you and your fellow athletes want to compete in the national (U.S.), state-wide competition at your level (high school, college, professional, etc.) and 11 out of 14 are the best in the sport but the state government says it will only fund/sponsor a team which adheres to a racial quota where 6 out of the 12 positions are reserved for people of a different race from your own, regardless of their athletic ability.

(a) Now if these 14 athletes took illegal, violent, and barbaric steps to see that merit was adhered to would you say that they had a black power/latino power/asian power/native american power etc. racial agenda?

(b) Now what if the 14 athletes dressed up in fancy suits, filed eloquent formal complaints, filed lawsuits, peacefully protested and took other civil approaches to see that the racial quota that had been declared without consent or voting was overturned and a merit system was adhered to? Would you still claim they had a racial empowerment agenda? Or would you admit that they were arguing for what is right?

Absolutely nothing has changed between (a) and (b) except for the method. Do not side step the parallels between (b) and modern and recent attempts to correct improper practices and laws by ordinary people. It would be difficult or impossible to ascribe a racial/ethnic empowerment agenda to any and every group which is or almost is racially or ethnically homogeneous and which uses method (b) if the actual complaint has legitimacy. There is no fundamental difference between (a) and (b) except the approach, yet an ethnic agenda is being assigned to a group that used method (a) merely by arguing that the overwhelming majority Igbo makeup of the coupists definitively suggests an ethnic agenda, when one could not just assert that this is self-evident for all cases in which a group which takes either method (a) or (b) in a similar situation is composed overwhelmingly of one ethnic group.

Do note that there are only a few areas where a quota system can be justified, such as to make up  for past discrimination with the hope of achieving equality, but can anyone name any past discrimination with regard to the 1950s - 1962 Nigerian military or the officer promotions therein?

With regard to Adekunle, Rotimi, etc., the Westerners and Midwesterners were not in the same position. Scroll down to page 100 of that google books link I posted in my previous post. You can clearly see where it states that prior to the 1962 quota system, two-thirds of officer positions had been going to Easterners. The author of that book is certainly not an Easterner.

1. The PM, Premiers of the West and North Regions, senior military officers from the West and North as well as others making a total of 27 people who died that night; only one was Igbo. Are you suggesting that the make-up of the plotters(predominantly Igbo) and the make-up of the victims (predominantly non-Igbo) was a mere coincidence?

Not at all a coincidence. Having a disproportionately higher number of military radicals and/or politicized soldiers (I think this is basically self-evident and I don't think it is at all a conjecture, but if you want, label it as such) in one ethnic group can give the false impression of a conspiratorial group. However having a higher proportion of political soldiers is not an amazing or unbelievable phenomenon when one also considers that there were also higher numbers of officer quality/material soldiers among Igbos with no fundamental explanation for that phenomenon besides culture. If you grow up in a culture where each man is his own sovereign and you bow to no one (not a detailed or precise representation of all Igbo societies, but a rough sketch) outside your own family isn't it plainly obvious that you'll have different political inclinations and responses to crises than someone from a culture where you pay obeisance to at least 8 different title holders and then to a king and never dare to go against their word?

Regardless of whether that is the case, if you want to go into the details, they have all been fleshed out before, but it wouldn't hurt to rehash what you already know.

a) All of those killed were seen as corrupt or morally compromised in some way, including Balewa, from a certain political (not ethnic, some AG Yorubas could have seen him the same way) perspective

b) The killings of the relatives of the targets or those that did not resist arrest were a result of the brutality of the coup (such as killing Akintola's nephew just for coming out of the house) and not merely for ethnic reasons.

c) The fact that the coup was already foiled by the time the "competent" or "honest" members (not Ifeajuna, for example) of the coup would have been able to kill the few lower priority Igbo targets that they had remaining out of their total hit list.

2. There was a constitutional crisis in Jan 1965 in which Zik refused to swear-in Balewa; Zik called in the service chiefs and he was politely told the limit of his powers by Sir Adetokunbo Ademola (Chief Justice) and the service chiefs. Admiral Wey told him that they reported to the PM. After realising the extent of his powers, Zik swore Balewa in. This was exactly one year before the coup.

I believe I somewhat understand the insinuation that is being made here but correct me if I'm wrong. In the book Biafra: the Making of A Nation, the authors (Nwankwo and Ifejika), writing very much from that era and from an Igbo perspective, strangely present Balewa's response of "No" to the question of whether he would concede leadership of government to Zik as though there was actually something wrong or inappropriate or power hungry about Balewa's response to that strange question. So if the authors of that book, who were well educated, were biased enough to think that there was anything unjust or wrong or out of place in Balewa not conceding to Zik when Balewa had no obligation to do so if he felt he were indeed the (properly) elected prime minister, it's not hard to imagine that less intelligent and less educated individuals could distort this sort of biased sentiment into a much simpler "get rid of Balewa" idea, but once again I see politics, rather than ethnicity in this. In that simplistic "eliminate and replace Balewa with Zik if he doesn't concede power" idea it's not so much about having an Igbo replace Balewa because of the rigging. Rather, it's about having "Dr" Nnamdi Azikiwe, Zik of Africa, replace Balewa. There is a difference.

Whether or not there was a "replace Balewa with Zik idea" in the air among the coupists, I have to say that with regard to your unstated, implicit conjecture about the significance of this event with regard to the January 1966 coup, I don't see how realizing that Zik had such limited powers would spur Zik or his Igbo supporters in the military to conspire to brutally murder the obstacles to his power (Balewa and co.) and think Zik or somebody more appealing to Igbos could somehow replace him while everybody else sat and watched quietly.

If this is not what you are saying then I should point out that the fact that the military was forced to stand by while a possibly rigged in government was ushered in with the army subservient to this government, while Zik's attempt to call for fresh, more valid elections instead of swearing in Balewa was ignored, is a purely political motivation for trying to get Balewa removed, not an ethnic empowerment motivation. If the consequence of Balewa's elimination and removal would be the empowerment of Zik, then that still does not demonstrate that the motivation for getting rid of Balewa was to empower Igbos. If the argument is that if the NPC and NNDP alliance had not existed (considering point # 3 that you raised) then they would not have attempted to eliminate Balewa and/or more greatly empower Zik, then I would have to point out that that is actually a conjecture or "what if".

If you're actually insinuating that Zik was some co-conspirator (which I don't believe that you even believe) then I would have to point out that this man ceded power twice - once in choosing not to govern an independent Eastern Nigeria in 1957, and again in choosing not to form a coalition with AG in which he was the one actually doing the governing. Then of course, there is Zik's historical romance with the north in order to "unite the country"  to consider. This blind enthrallment with the north even lead him to reach out to the north again in 1979. If he had a problem with the North in 1964/1965, and was chiefly interested in Igbo advancement/power, how do we explain his overtures to the north in 1979?

3. The union of NPC and Akintola's NNDP meant that more posts and appointments went to Yoruba sons at the expense of Ndigbo after the 1964 elections

In John de St. Jorre's book on the civil war it mentions that he interviewed certain Igbo intellectuals who admitted that they had already thought about Eastern secession before the 1966 crisis and before Ojukwu even came on the scene and a few had even drafted up proposals and that a very large contributing factor to this was the extremely heated tussle over the replacement of Igbo vice chancellors with non-Igbo vice chancellors in universities in the Western region.

I only mention this "random" fact in the same way you've mentioned your other facts to make a counter-insinuation to the insinuation and implicit conjecture about the motivations of the coup that underlie your posting of this fact. It might not be obvious to others so I should probably just state my counter explicitly: Isn't it glaringly obvious that if the Igbo political and military elite had an issue with the shift of power away from Igbos due to the political realignment that it would actually have been far more in line with their interests and more easily attainable and less risky to pursue secession rather than attempt a military takeover of the country using a thinly stretched squad of primarily Igbo soldiers and then attempt to sustain that takeover?

4. Zik was tipped off by his alleged cousin Ifeajuna, the real leader of the coup. Zik was in fact cooling off in the West indies while his colleagues were being slaughtered.

This is not actually a fact and not even a theory, until you can provide convincing evidence of the Ifeajuna -> Zik tip. (Not Emmanuel Nwobosi, unless he can provide any proof for his allegation. Nwobosi was not even in the same "sub-group" of coup plotters as Ifeajuna, by his own admission, so how would he know?). I also want to know who claimed Ifeajuna and Zik were cousins, I haven't been able to find the source (not Omoigui, but the source) of that claim.

5. After murdering Balewa and organising the murder of others, Ifeajuna ran to the East and the first place he went to was to Enugu to parley with Okpara (premier of the East, an Igbo man). I have been waiting for someone to explain this; perhaps you can. Please do not sidestep this point.

We can actually only conjecture about why Ifeajuna went to Okpara since both are not alive. You seem to be conjecturing about motivations or the significance of "parleying" with Okpara here without solid evidence. I can't recall Michael Okpara being held in any prison like Ademoyega and Ifeajuna after the first coup. I can't recall Okpara being detained or interrogated about the 1966 coup after the fall of Biafra or any other time afterward. I can't recall Michael Okpara being identified by the special branch report as being a possible suspect, coup ally, or mastermind. Perhaps you can explain this? If they wanted to pin somebody for being a key mastermind of a coup that was in line with UPGA interests, why not one of the most key people in UPGA? Yet nobody did. Not the coupists that confessed, not the federal government before or after the civil war. Nobody suggested any wrongdoing on his part, yet it would have been so easy to do so.

I also wonder why you don't mention that Fajuyi (military governor the West, Yoruba man) is known to have helped the coupists. What motivation would you read into that? A Yoruba + Igbo coup? Or would you here admit that even if Okpara was somehow involved (and there is still no evidence), it still could easily be a politically motivated coup, rather than an ethnically motivated coup?

I can take a crack at explaining it but you'll say it's all conjecture. Nevertheless, I think my view is reasonable enough.

Michael Okpara was UPGA. The coup was definitely in line with UPGA's interests, though there is no evidence that it was sponsored by UPGA. Ifeajuna went to Okpara for protection and/or advice now that he was a dead man after the coup had failed, thinking he would find a sympathizer in the man. Now was Okpara (doctor/politician) supposed to somehow arrest Ifeajuna (soldier) while Ifeajuna was there? Ifeajuna then left upon failing to get any protection or guarantees for his safety. It's that simple to me.

And once again, what you posted doesn't even prove or demonstrate an association or intent without an insinuation or conjecture ("parleying" with an ally, for instance) applied to it.

I have given you fact-supported motive as well as facts which support my position. Please don't come back with conjecture; I am not interested in what-ifs, supposing, if they wanted to, etc statements. If you can supply any new facts, I may be willing to change my position.


Something else that a lot of people miss. The coup had two very different objectives. The first objective as epitomised by Nzeogwu and Ademoyega was a noble one but this two (Nzeogwu and Ademoyega) were only recruited approximately 3 months to the coup. The second objective was an ethnic one and was camouflaged by the first objective. People naively or disingenuously use the first noble objective to excuse the brutal manner of the assassinations which betrays the second objective. Even Nzeogwu and Captain Nwobosisi acknowledge that there was an ethnic undertone with the execution of the coup in Lagos.

Nzeogwu's words are not to the effect that it was an Igbo coup but more in line with stating that those who bungled the coup in the south were sentimental and didn't have the ruthlessness to see their responsibilities through. Nzeogwu got into a heated argument with somebody who pointed out the ethnic pattern of the killings while the coup was still going on. He would not then go and state for no reason that it was a partially ethnically motivated coup later when he had blatantly said otherwise around the time of doing the actual killing.

Please tell me what Emmanuel Nwobosi said that could be interpreted as acknowledging that there was an ethnic undertone. I was under the impression that he said that Ifeajuna failed the other coupists.

lol@ comparing kidnapping in Abia to violence in jos


The 2001, 2008 and 2010 conflicts in Jos have resulted in the deaths of more than 1500 Nigerians and hundreds more have been injured and somebody is saying that is less violent than small recurrent kidnapping sprees.