Pilgrim1's Posts

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Christianity Etc › Re: Sex: An Enigmatic Subject? by pilgrim1(op): 6:04am On Jan 06, 2008

Purist:
Ahem! Sorry, I just had to resurrect this one.

It's true. The talk of sex and masturbation these days has become alarming. People have lost their sense of shame, our generation no longer blushes at their private proclivities, and the holy has become the mundane.

I wonder if this silence here (until you resurrected the thread) is a beninged acknowledgement that this is a grey subject that we ought to address forthrightly.

Christianity Etc › Re: Black Race And White Race Secret by pilgrim1(f): 5:53am On Jan 06, 2008

Satisfied now? cheesy

Christianity Etc › Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 5:47am On Jan 06, 2008

Hi again @Bobbyaf,

I understand your point and where you're coming from; and there's no reason for me to hold my views as superior to yours or anyone's. I can only present them as coherently as I possibly can manage so that the sense is not lost - and when examined closely in relation to other verses, they should be found to hold true and firm.

The principle of Biblical exegesis is such that a verse cannot just be interpreted solely on its own. It has to be compared with other verses (cf. 1 Cor. 2:13 - "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" wink

as well as not taking a single verse privately to assume an idea (2 Pet. 1:20 - "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation" wink

. These are the two things I often bear in mind when reading and studying the Bible - and that is why I often make the points that people read in my entries the way they appear.

That said, the point in Genesis specifically points to spiritual death rather than merely physical or natural death. A few points to clarify this:

(a) "in the day" does not point to dying physically that very day - for as is clear in the verses examined so far, neither Adam nor Eve died physically that very day!

(b) spiritual death is not something that begins and transits slowly - it happens instantaneously! That is what happened the very moment that their sin brought (spiritual) death to them, and the effect of that spiritual death was seen in their dread of the presence of God (Gen. 3:8 - "Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God" wink

.

(c) the collective testimony of Scripture is that this death (spiritual death) passed upon EVERY single being that ever lived - even over those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression (Romans 5:14).

(d) scripture describes the experience of spiritual death in other terms - especially as evidenced in the life of the natural man (1 Cor. 2:14 - "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" wink

(e) however, the basic principle that speaks of this specific experience in the event in Genesis is well encapsulated in 1 Corinthians 15:22 -- "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". You can see here that being "made alive" is not a matter of being physically alive - for even Christians also die physically. The death that all die in Adam is spiritual death - it does not matter that a man lives the age of Methuselah.

The exceptions to physical death in Scripture are enunciated in Enoch who was taken by God and did not experience physical death; Elijah who went up by a chariot of fire; (and possibly Melchizedek - although this is debatable).

The guiding principle is this:

Muslims wonder how the vicarious death and resurrection of Christ should benefit even those who lived in the OT before He was born in the NT. I have debated this very issue with auwal87 before in another thread - but the answer is simply understood in the verse just cited above: "even so in Christ shall all be made alive". The resurrection is a true event because of JESUS CHRIST and no one else. Second, it is a future event (SHALL be made alive).

It is not only in the NT that this hope of resurrection was expressed - we know that for a fact! Muslims are more comfortable to run to the OT to examine issues (but when they are shown, they are still left clueless). In the OT, however, Job also looked for the hope of the Resurrection in connection with the REDEEMER:

Job 19:25-27

²⁵For I know that my Redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

²⁶And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:

²⁷Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold,
and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Beautiful hope! cheesy

Not only did Job (as far back as in the OT) declare clearly that he had a hope of the Resurrection at the latter day after worms destroy his body; but notice what he called the Redeemer by inspiration - "yet in my flesh shall I see God" - he acknowledges that the Redeemer IS GOD, and his eyes shall see HIM in that day!

What we lost in Adam is given to us in greater glory! Spiritual death came through Adam; and true LIFE has come to us through the Son of God - Jesus Christ Himself, the Prince of life!

Many blessings.

Christianity Etc › Re: Trinity by pilgrim1(f): 6:38pm On Jan 05, 2008

@olabowale,

olabowale:
@Bobbyaf: : First we are happy to know that Trinity is only an IDEA and not a clearly defined WORD, in the Bible. However, the Qur'an stated the word TRINITY, very clearly and states that it is a lie.

The LIE stated in the Qur'an was actually Muhammad's lies of assuming that the Trinity comprised the Father, the Son and MARY. We have asked this question again and again as to where Muhammad got that fallacy - for the Bible never once assumed that Mary was part of the Trinity.

Christianity Etc › Re: Babs787, Where Did The Qur'an Say So? by pilgrim1(op): 6:36pm On Jan 05, 2008

Dear SysUser,

No worries - the thread is open to guys like you, because whenever you post (as do davidylan and others), we can be sure to read some sense.

Thanks for the links - I am sure they will help me quite some.

Cheers and God bless you plenty. cheesy

Christianity Etc › Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 6:33pm On Jan 05, 2008

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:
If God had meant a spiritual death it would mean that both Adam and Eve could not have been restored. You see the word "shall" connotates certainty, and if it was intended to mean a spiritual death as Pilgrim is sugesting, then both our parents would have died without the possibility of salvation.

Spiritual death does NOT suggest that there would be no possibility of salvation. Two things you should always keep clearly in mind:

(a) If God meant a literal, physical death, they both would have died that very day! The fact that this did not occur that very day points out that we have to seek to understand its context - and from all indication, because the verse is prophetic in character, it is nothing short of a spiritual death.

(b) the condition of man when God sent His Son is such that we were ALL dead in sins - that is what the Bible teaches in Ephesians 2:1 & 5 - "we were dead in sins" even though we were physically alive.

The idea you are espousing clearly did not take these issues into consideration; for if you did examine them carefully, you would not assume that spritual death meant that there was no possibility of a recovery.

1 Cor. 15:22 -- "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Christianity Etc › Re: Black Race And White Race Secret by pilgrim1(f): 6:03pm On Jan 05, 2008

Horus:
No we can kill mental slave like you!! , because a mental slave is worse than the enemy.

I hear. Anymore your race can do?

Christianity Etc › Re: If U Have One Question To Ask God, Wat Will It Be? by pilgrim1(f): 6:02pm On Jan 05, 2008

No worries - welcome anytime.

Christianity Etc › Re: Trinity by pilgrim1(f): 6:01pm On Jan 05, 2008

Lol. . . olabowale, why the hide-and-seek? grin

Okay, I don waka. I will leave the Forum for another LOOOOOOOONG break! By the time I return, hopefully, you will have plenty for us to rub minds on! grin

Cherio!

Christianity Etc › Re: Are Catholics Really Christians? by pilgrim1(f): 5:59pm On Jan 05, 2008

Ganjaseed:
The Roman Catholics are not in any way near Christianity, They are anti Christ that will show up very soon.

Kai! The more we try to temper some amicable atmosphere here, the more we find resolved assertions greeting the effort. undecided

Christianity Etc › Re: Babs787, Where Did The Qur'an Say So? by pilgrim1(op): 5:56pm On Jan 05, 2008

Lol. . . abeg make una help me tell babs787 the thing wey he dey pretend not to understand again. grin

davidylan:
You mean your own game of not being able to produce a simple verse 3 pages after?

Hehehe. . . I no fit laugh finish! grin

theopops:
Babs787, if I were you, I will simply accept that I was wrong and made a mistake and then move on. Even a person with saw dust for brains, know what you are trying to do. . .So just man up and stop lookin and sounding like a retard.

QED. Nothing for me to add! grin

Christianity Etc › Re: If U Have One Question To Ask God, Wat Will It Be? by pilgrim1(f): 5:55pm On Jan 05, 2008

oziomatv:
give me your email the one on profile is outdated

Lol. . . it is not outdated. Perhaps there was something you did not include - like the underscore ( _ ).

The email: p_romanio@yahoo.com

_{I'm in the office just now, but will try and see if I can respond to emails.}

Cheers. wink

Christianity Etc › Re: Black Race And White Race Secret by pilgrim1(f): 5:53pm On Jan 05, 2008

I hear. Is that all your race can do?

Christianity Etc › Re: Trinity by pilgrim1(f): 5:51pm On Jan 05, 2008

@olabowale,

olabowale:
Some people are tickled pink because of the what luv2talk wrote: I can not find the thread where in he misspoke/miswritten, that Jesus died for truth.

Lol. . . you cannot find the thread where he made that bloviate - because you chose to conveniently misapply yourself to the wrong thread searching for your missing clues. grin

Go to the following thread and see where the saga was stated:

~ (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-101418.0.html#msg1782433)

~ (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-101418.0.html#msg1822240)

~ (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-101418.0.html#msg1822996)

olabowale:
I guess that he was for sure going to write that Jesus will die for truth when he returns. Or if his intention was about prior to Jesus being raised up, i am very sure that he intended to write that Jesus did not die but stood for truth.

Your cover-up still does not make any sense here. Unless you have more seasoned excuses, let this onw blow as the chaff they were intended to be. grin

olabowale:
As a Muslim, he would not find any other thing about the life and death of Jesus and his mission more than I have written above. If anyone will care to check the Qur'an, even the translation, and the hadith, and the story of the prophets, there is no single indication that Jesus has died and that his mission was different from any prior prophet's mission and the mission of the only prophet that came after him.

We've checked and exposed the FACT that there is no correlation between Jesus Christ and Muhammad. Any more excuses?

olabowale:
However if luv2talk is not a Muslim, he can say whatever he wants about whatever.

Very quick to push other Muslims out of your 72 sick ummah, abi? grin

olabowale:
But Islam has its material sources from the Book of Ar Rahman, the Qur'an and Hadith/sunnah from Muhammad (as) the chief servant/slave of Allah the Ar Rahman. There is no point having any opinion different from Allah and His Messenger. All we have to say is that we hear and we obey. And ask for forgiveness.

Yeah. . . no need to even employ your brains and consciences in understanding what you read in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Well done - no wonder we keep our fingers crossed for Muslim intelligence and scholarship. grin

Christianity Etc › Re: If U Have One Question To Ask God, Wat Will It Be? by pilgrim1(f): 5:09pm On Jan 05, 2008

oziomatv:
_{How can I contact you? are you online?}

Sorry, I didn't mean to log off like that (I was just getting ready for my second job actually).

If you go to my profile, you'll see my contact details (email).

Cheers - and looking forward to be of whatever help I can be. cheesy

Christianity Etc › Re: If U Have One Question To Ask God, Wat Will It Be? by pilgrim1(f): 4:49pm On Jan 05, 2008

oziomatv:
then who should I lay the blames?

This is one of the reasons why I discourage the blame-game syndrome:

(https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-93545.0.html#msg1704919)

Christianity Etc › Re: Black Race And White Race Secret by pilgrim1(f): 4:47pm On Jan 05, 2008

Precisely what I have been saying about those who keep themselves busy in the blame-game.

Christianity Etc › Re: If U Have One Question To Ask God, Wat Will It Be? by pilgrim1(f): 4:45pm On Jan 05, 2008

oziomatv:
_{How do you intend to do that?}

_{Perhaps, if we rub minds together, we might find there are more opportunities to be harnessed than we realize.

Ever thought to connect with challenging opportunities to school, work and take advantage of whatever might be helpful to develop one's potential. For instance, I won a scholarship (which I haven't used) to go study Petroleum Engineering in the USA - that opportunity came by a friend simply sending me the application details. Unfortunately, I did not make the grade in Engineering Maths to take on the programme. However, I am not discouraged - and the opportunity is still open!

That is just an example. There are whole lots of other ways that people can GENUINELY connect to be of more help than mere talk - and that is what I want to offer.}

Christianity Etc › Re: Is It True Dat D Holy Bible Isnt Complete by pilgrim1(f): 4:40pm On Jan 05, 2008

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=103476.msg1822998#msg1822998 date=1199544644]Drop your Muslim hypocrisy and then you will find me a pleasant discussant.[/quote]

Christianity Etc › Re: Babs787, Where Did The Qur'an Say So? by pilgrim1(op): 4:40pm On Jan 05, 2008

@babs787,

It's already grown out of use. Find another excuse to buy time.

The first page is not your death warrant. Click it anytime your shakara wanes off.

Christianity Etc › Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 4:38pm On Jan 05, 2008

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrim.1

Can I have some of the ways please?

I had enunciated two types of death for you already: spiritual death and physical death - with references - in my initial rejoinder. The reason why you may be asking this question this lately is because you never paid attention to them - otherwise there would be absolutely no need for this.

babs787:
You think so. The verse is a very straight forward one that doesnt need any twisting which you have been doing

There's no twisting - that was why I spoke of CONTEXT. It is because you deliberately want to tear it out of its context, that is why you cannot endure what was posted in my rejoinder - NOR have YOU offered any alternative exegesis for the verse.

The only thing you have done so far is what every lazy person can do without effort - DENY them!

babs787:
Haba, that is a blatant lie my dear.

I haven't seen where you offered anything as alternative for the truth thereto.

babs787:
Now read this again:

for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.

Two things can be got here

1. The day you eat the fruit
2. That day you shall die

Now are you trying to say He was referrig to spiritual death. You accused someone of lifting out of context but you have been doing what you accused others of. God made it known to us that the very day they eat the fruit, they will die and you are here trying to twist it, givng it another meaning. Do you mean that the day they eat the fruit, the day they will die a spiritual death?

Thy very day they ate of that fruit in DISOBEDIENCE to God, they experienced spiritual death. Go and find out before assuming your denials where you have had nothing alternative fopr those verses.

babs787:
What was the day referring to considering the other part of the statement that says 'the day you eat the fruit'

The day does not necessary mean that it was a mere physical death that was meant. Satan who came to them also knew that the whole import of God's admonition to them was a spiritual matter - he knew God was not speaking in terms of physical or natural death and living. They were already LIVING whene Satan came to slicker them with a false promise that they would not surely DIE. They were already seeing with their EYES before Satan told them that their eyes would be OPENED (Genesis 3:4 & 5).

Did you also ponder about those verses and wonder that Satan was speaking not in physical or natural terms - when as a matter of FACT, they were already LIVING with OPENED EYES?

This is why I asked you to look carefully at the context - and all will become clear to you - instead of seeking to deliberately argue away from the gist of the verses and read your own pretexts into them! grin

babs787:
Good to hear you say you are waiting for my rebuttal. Let me remind you that when we are through with this, we will go and debate the previously raised questions

I have never been shy of bleaching you guys - and I will always do so as long as you bring your islamic hypocrisy to bear.

babs787:
You are the one trying to force what is not into that verse which happened to be glaring.

No wahala - that is why I have offered you the simple challenge of clearly going one step fuurther and stop behaving like a lazy student. You cliamed to know the bible very well, abi? Seriously gufted people with knowledge do not sit down and DENY issues. . . that is the easiest thing anybody can do.

Take one step further and prove your mettle by exegeting those verses.

babs787:
these are the verses again:

Go to that book of Genesis and you would see that they never had any problem nor God telling or commanind them as in the above statement prior to the eating of the fruit. They moved freely, they didnt face any hardship but had to go through the above after eating the fruit. It was the eating of the fruit that made God to tell her as in the above verse. Now, please do you think God would have told her that if she has not eaten that fruit? God told her that as the punishment for eating the fruit

Are you not saying the same thing that you have not been able to prove up until now? he "punishment" was NOT a curse! Since you pretend to know so much and have been the one reading "CURSE" upon Eve - [lease quote the verse where it says God CURSED Eve! Period.

babs787:
Also he made this statement to Adam after eating the fruit. You should know that Adam lived in that Garden peacefully and confortably before the issung of eating the fruit came up but God had to tell him that being the punishment for eating the fruit.

Did that suggest that God placed any CURSES upon Adam? I ahve demonstrated that the curse was not upon Adam, but upon the ground for his sake. If you find a verse where God cursed Adama and Eve, please simply save the cacophony and quote the verse directly. Thank you.

babs787:
What does that look like my dear? Did God place any hardship on her before eating that fruit?

Does islam teach that every hardship is the same thing as a CURSE?

babs787:
No I am not smart but still learning.

Sorry, you don't seem to have been able to demonstrate your pretended scholarship.

babs787:
Now, did God place any hardship on them before they ate the fruit? Is that statement not supposed to be punishment for her sin?

Punishment for sin - yep. CURSE upon Eve - a big NO!

If you find the CURSE upon Eve, please stop the argument and simply post it directly.

babs787:
Stop twisting the word of God (inspired word of God ). You know the truth that made that statement after eating the fruit which he commanded them not to and you are very aware that God never told them what he did in those verses. The eating of the fruit brought about that and it served as a punishment for eating the fruit. Deny the fact again.

Don't take a heart-attack on this simple thing. I never twisted the word of God; and all this while, the CURSE you are disingenously reading into the text upon Eve is what I have challenged you to simply post. Is that too hard for you as well? grin

babs787:
Ok, good. God made that statement because of the sin they committed. God did not give that command when they havent eaten that fruit but had to that after eating the fruit. Please does that not look like a punishment for the sin committed by them?

You're beginning to sound like abroken record just to prove that you have no case.

God did not curse Eve - and even though you want to force that pretext into the context, please be informed that even Islam does not teach that illiterate idea.

Drop your pretext, and you will no longer be chasing your confusion.

babs787:
You should prepare to answer the questions on Jesus being sent to the whole world

has this issue already worn you out that you can't wait to finish it off nicely? grin

Please save the hypocrisy and let us know that you're only saving face.

Christianity Etc › Re: Are There Any Former Muslims In Here? by pilgrim1(f): 4:13pm On Jan 05, 2008

@olabowale,

olabowale:
First Aisha did not write the Hadith that wakes you up like a shot of starbuck coffee. It was not written during her time. It was passed down, in a chain of narration. It is unlike the Qur'an, which is required for everyone to know a good deal of.

Nobody asked you whether Aisha wrote down the Hadith by herself. Whoever wrote it certainly knew that Aisha could not have deliberately been misleading them. Even the qur'an was written by the pen and ink of men. Period.

The question is a straightforward, no-nonsense one:

WAS Aisha lying in testifying in her own words (as recorded in the hadiths) that she was only a girl when Muhammad married and took her to bed?

Christianity Etc › Re: If U Have One Question To Ask God, Wat Will It Be? by pilgrim1(f): 4:10pm On Jan 05, 2008

@oziomatv,

I understand why you have these concerns (or, at least, I understand in part).

The first thing here that I would advise is to drop the blame game. There's no one to lay the blames upon, and we truly can do something about our present plight if only we take the time to apply ourselves intelligently to the issues that we desire to accomplish.

Second, while others are losing their heads over endless arguments that take us nowhere, we can do better by quietly studying to develop ourselves and pool our resources to maximize our potentials. Is education the key that unlocks great possibilities for so many of us? Then why not use it, instead of complaining?

Third, learn from role models - of whatever race. There are so many role models in the black community who have literarily gone through such grinding situations in life with very little resources. Today, they are standing as giants in their chosen endeavours - and there really are no excuses if we cannot aspire to rise to the challenges that confront us today.

Against the collective complaints of corruption in our community, we can quietly achieve greater goals. It is not in complaining that chanpions are born or made. . . it is rather in the strength of an unmoveable mind towards one's goals that the stars shine the brightest!

Cheers! wink

_{PS. Rather than all the talk and no action, I am willing to be of any practical help where you may need me to apply myself.}

Christianity Etc › Re: Pilgrim. 1: Is The Bible 100% Inspired Word Of God? by pilgrim1(f): 3:59pm On Jan 05, 2008

babs787:
@pilgrim

My response:

Same thing you will keep reading from me until you drop your Muslim hypocrisy:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=102474.msg1822728#msg1822728 date=1199539044]As soon as you give up the hypocrisy of deminading answers from other when you NEVER seek to genuinely answer simple questions.[/quote]

Christianity Etc › Re: Babs787, Where Did The Qur'an Say So? by pilgrim1(op): 3:58pm On Jan 05, 2008

@babs787,

babs787:
@pilgrim

No I didnt bother because I know that my professor, pilgrim.1 :Dwill re-supply the meaning and when you do, we will know if Quran came to confirm and correct the Bible based on verses from both books

Lol. . . the one reason why you did not bother is because that gimmick proved a failure! grin

It is not today I got to know you Muslims and the ad hominen tactics of trying to defelct the core concern of a thread by trying to make irrelevant excuses.

Whenever you wak up from your games, the first page will still be there. Go there and visit your death-wish as much as you can bear.

When you have satisfied yourself, then again my question is simple and straightforward:

WHERE did the Qur'an say in any verse that it came to correct the Biblical scriptures?

If the Qur'an never made such a claim, WHY have you and your folks been lying for 'Allah' and trying to force words into his mouth so shamelessly?

Islam › Re: Islamic Veil by pilgrim1(f): 3:54pm On Jan 05, 2008

olabowale:
@Defidixone: If I have not opened myself up to good knowledge, beyond the 4 walls of the classrooms, I would not be the person I am today. Thanks to my Creator, for the limited knowledge that He gave me, already. I will still pray to Him for more knowledge and wisdom.

Please do so - pray for more knowledge and let us see how much you fare. We are fed up to the back teeth with Muslims glaoting about their 'scientific' knowledge and yet not being able to do simple Islamic arithmetics to arrive at 6 cardinal points! grin

Christianity Etc › Re: Trinity by pilgrim1(f): 3:51pm On Jan 05, 2008

babs787:
@dafidixone

Can you help me beg your sister, pilgrim.1 to respond to my question?

No one needs to do any begging here. My response remains the same until you drop your hypocrisy:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=103159.msg1822868#msg1822868 date=1199541516]@babs787,

When you learn to drop your hypocrisy, you will face up to intelligence that Muslims only wish for. Trying to play games and expecting me to keep chasing your Islamic ducking every now and then is not going to glorify Islam.

You drop your hypocrisy, then we can enter into a discourse.[/quote]

Christianity Etc › Re: Is It True Dat D Holy Bible Isnt Complete by pilgrim1(f): 3:50pm On Jan 05, 2008

babs787:
2Pilgrim.1

Is the bible complete or not?

Drop your Muslim hypocrisy and then you will find me a pleasant discussant.

Christianity Etc › Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 3:49pm On Jan 05, 2008

@auwal87,

auwal87:
*Poster

NO! Jesus did Not Died for the Sins of Mankind, He is still Alive, and will come down to Earth one day, He got a big Favour from God, He is the only Human Being that was raised up to Heaven including his own Body, Not like us, Body is left on Earth, and Soul is raised to Heaven, So Jesus is still Alive, God knows better than we do,

So, whatever happened to your earlier assertion that Jesus died for truth? WHY are Muslims so confused that they are suddenly crawling out of their holes to contradict their own statements? grin

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