₦airaland Forum

Let it be said and proclaimed loudly: Mohamed committed atrocities!

And for those condoning his evil acts; it’s no VIRTUE to whitewash the disgusting acts of Mohamed.

He claimed to be a prophet and not just a tribal leader. That claim of prophet-hood should carry with it a measure of MORAL expectations. Yet many Moslems and other apologists of Islam become blinded to this when any issue about the appraisal of Mohamed comes up. Even in the 7th century there were standards.

Most Moslems are illiterate as far as the quran is concerned. They therefore rely on what they are told about the religion rather than on what they have studied about it themselves.

TalkIslam:
Salam!

Watch https://www.nairaland.com/3928698/muslim-v-atheist-response-jihadonignorance

See This: https://www.nairaland.com/3659506/quran-says-jesus-superior-mohamed

lfleak:
Aisha was married at the age 9..
That only has made all your note false..

You are supposed to end your sentences with only a full stop.
That made your post wrong.

TalkIslam:
Salam!

Care to watch the video?

The video does not deny any of the claims against Islam. At best what it does is to say: “if it is also in the Bible, then it’s ok for it to be done in Islam. That is hardly any reasonable way of proving a point.

Saying one thing and DOING ANOTHER is a common FEATURE in Islam. The Moslem has to let us know whether he stands with the quran or if he has chosen his own standards to walk with. Deception (Al-Taqiya) is also a norm in Islam, so the Moslem can say one thing and mean or do a completely different thing.

On Marriage to Minor
Even if Islam appears to encourage marriage to girls who have reached puberty, it is clear that Mohamed VIOLATED such. He married a six (6) year old. What moral is in this for a 50 year old? Moslems in response to this will be quick to say: “Allah knows best”. A lame excuse.
It is either that the religion stands for DEFINITE standards or it rests on nothing.
Does the quran have ONE SET OF RULES for Mohamed and then ANOTHER for the rest of Moslems or is it that like Aisha, Mohamed’s wife told him – it always appear that Allah is very ready to satisfy Mohamed’s pleasures.

Have Moslems ever wonder why the Quran is MORE ABOUT Mohamed than even Allah?

On “ETHICS OF WAR”
The quran (and also Islam’s other so-called holy books) should be the ultimate source of KNOWING anything about what Islam stands for; not what any Moslem would like us to accept or believe that Islam stands for.
The question should always be – “What does the quran or the hadith, etc say about this issue and where divergent views are stated in them which ones stand and why?”
JIHAD MOST DEFINITELY includes military warfare to expand Islam.
Moslems believe Islam MUST rule the world. Conquering people through warfare is then seen as a legitimate means of accomplishing this.
Mohamed raided many caravans.
Mohamed raided many tribes.
Mohamed made unprovoked wars against many settlements and cities.
Sura 33:26 shows that men of the Qurayza tribe were killed. There was no separation of young from old, or fighters from non-fighters. In short, no “ETHICS” was applied. In fact, Mohamed wanted to always instil fear in the people he went against and a warning to others he was yet to get to.
Whatever Mohamed did he claimed it was by Allah’s permission – Q. 59:5

It was the booty of raids and wars that Mohamed and Islam used in expanding their reach. For every people Mohamed came against they were FORCED to either accept Islam or face death or subjugation. The “No compulsion in religion”, from the historical account of Mohamed, NEVER existed as a mantra in Islam.

TalkIslam:
Salam!

What do say about this:

Mohamed:
1. Killed captives taken in battle who surrendered – Ibn Ishaq 451
2. Encouraged his men to rape enslaved women – Abu Dawood 2150, Quran 4:24
3. Demanded captured slaves and a fifth of all other loot taken in war – Quran 8:41
4. Was NEVER tortured, but tortured others – Muslim 4131, Ibn Ishaq 436, 595, 734, 764
5. “And fight them until there is no more persecution and religion is only for Allah” – Quran 8:39
6. Blessed the brutal murder of a half-blind man – al-Tabari 1440

Jesus:
1. Never took captives. Never killed anyone.
2. Never encouraged rape. Never enslaved women.
3. “The Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve” - Matthew 20:28
4. Suffered torture, but never tortured anyone.
5. “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” – Matthew 5:44
6. Healed a blind man. – Mark 8:28

And this article:
A Comparison between Jesus and Muhammad
by Matt Slick

Following is a chart that shows some of the strong differences between Jesus and Mohammed. The Muslims revere Mohammed as the greatest of prophets, yet Jesus clearly demonstrated greater authority, teaching, and miracles than Mohammed ever did. Why would anyone want to follow Mohammed over Jesus when Jesus claimed to be divine, performed many miracles, said he alone was the truth, raised people from the dead, and rose from the dead himself; and Mohammed did none of these things. However, Mohammed did have people killed, spread his religion through war, married a very young girl and had relations with her when she was nine years of age, and taught hatred of Jews and Christians.
Jesu/[b] versus [b]Muhammad
Death: Jesus died and rose from the dead. Muhammad died and stayed dead.
Fighting: Jesus never fought. Muhammad fought many many times.
Hearing from God: When Jesus heard from God, he went to the desert When Muhammad heard from God(supposedly through an
to be tempted and began his ministry with boldness. angel),he cowered, was uncertain, and wanted to commit
(Mark 1:14-15). suicide. (Quran 74:1-5)


Identity: Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:24; 58) as well as a man. Muhammad claimed to be a man.
Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth, and the life. (John 14:6).

Instructions Received: From God the Father (John 5:19) Muhammad Allegedly from an angel

Killing: Jesus never killed anyone. Muhammad killed many.

Life: Jesus had the power to take life but never did. He restored it. Muhammad had the power to take it, but he never restored it.
No one ever died in Jesus' presence. Many people died in Muhammad's presence--he killed them.
Marriage: Jesus never married. Muhammad had over 20 wives and even married a nine-year-old
girl.
Ministry: Jesus received his calling from God directly. (Matt. 3:17). Muhammad allegedly received it from an angel (Gabriel).
Jesus received his commission in the daylight. Muhammad received his words in the darkness of a cave.

Ministry Length: Jesus taught for 3 1/2 years. Muhammad taught for more than 20 years.
Miracles: Jesus performed many miracles including healing people, Muhammad's only alleged miracle was the Quran.
calming a storm with a command, and raising people
from the dead.
Prophecy: Jesus fulfilled biblical prophecy about being the Messiah. Muhammad did not fulfill any biblical prophecy except the ones
about false teachers (Matt. 24:24).
Sacrifice: Jesus voluntarily laid his life down for others. Muhammad saved his own life many times and had others killed.
Sin: Jesus never sinned. (1 Pet. 2:22) Muhammad was a sinner. (Quran 40:55; 48:1-2)
Slaves Jesus owned no slaves. Muhammad owned slaves.
Virgin Birth: Jesus was virgin born. Muhammad was not virgin born.
Voice of God: Jesus received and heard the Muhammad did not receive or hear the direct voice of God. It
direct voice of God. (Mark 1:10-11) was an angel instead.

Women: Jesus spoke well of women. Muhammad said women were 1/2 as smart as men (Hadith
3:826; 2:541), that the majority in hell will be women (Had.
1:28,301; 2:161; 7:124), and that women could be mortgaged.

There is no comparison between Jesus and Muhammad. Muhammad falls so far short that he cannot be held on any level remotely close to Jesus. Muhammad is clearly inferior to Christ.

Haroun13:
The word does not need "backing up". It means what it means. The meaning of the writeup is that if you decide to twist the meaning of the word, because of your bigotry, then you should face the fact that whatever you twist it to mean, applies to your book.

So do you agree that the Bible you're quoting from is not corrupted?
If yes, then we can begin discussion.
So, answer and let's proceed.

Hymns Teaching God’s Guarantee Of Eternal Security (1)

Hymns that have doctrinal basis in the word of God faithfully teach the mind of God on various issues. Through long centuries hymns have served, not only to encourage and challenge the believer but also to give him comfort and assurance of his position in Christ.
When sung, not just as an emotion experience but with attention to the message in them, hymns can turn out to be a source of spiritual edification for the Christian.

One of the hymns that recognizes that our hope for eternal life depends COMPLETELY on Jesus’ life and work on our behalf, and not on any work on our part that ADDS TO Christ’s work is the hymn “MY HOPE IS BUILT ON NOTHING LESS” or using the original title: “THE SOLID ROCK”. This hymn was written by Edward Mote (1797 – 1874).

The lyrics go as follows:
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.

When darkness veils His lovely face,
I rest on His unchanging grace;
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.

His oath, His covenant, His blood
Support me in the whelming flood;
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my hope and stay.

When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found;
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.

Refrain:
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand,
All other ground is sinking sand.

The first stanza comes out straight and sharp that our hope – our guarantee – of eternal life rests on NOTHING LESS than impeccable life and victorious work of Jesus on our behalf. No matter how SWEET any other ‘frame’ may seem, we dare not trust in it.
The refrain or chorus makes a declaration that every believer ought to make – Christ ALONE is the solid ground; ALL OTHER GROUND is SINKING SAND.

The second and third stanzas tell us that even when things are unclear and perhaps difficult (when our faith is shaken or challenged and we are tested in various ways by pressures of life) Christ’s UNCHANGING words and promises give us the stability we need to remain steady and keep going on.

In the fourth and final stanza we are confronted with the fact that our ultimate standing rests only on our being FOUND IN CHRIST and DRESSED IN HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ALONE.

The straightforward message projected by this hymn is simple: Christ’s righteousness (attained by FAITH ALONE in him) is the only requirement for salvation.

“But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy ……. So that having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life” Titus 3: 4 – 7

OLAADEGBU:
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

If there is no chance of losing one's salvation why the trembling and fearing while working it out until it is completed? Listen to what our Lord and Saviour said when asked about the endtimes:

"And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end shall be saved" (Matthew 24:11-13).

He/she that endures till the end shall be saved. We need God's grace for salvation, we need grace to continue being saved and we need grace to endure to the end.

This is from gotquestions.org:
Question: "What does it mean to work out salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)?"

Answer: In Philippians 2:12-13, Paul writes, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.”

This text is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. What does it mean to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Paul can hardly be encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety. That would contradict his many other exhortations to peace of mind, courage, and confidence in the God who authors our salvation. The Greek word translated "fear" in this context can equally mean "reverence" or "respect." Paul uses the same phrase in (2 Corinthians 7:15) where he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him “with fear and trembling,” that is, with great humility and respect for his position as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in “weakness and fear, and with much trembling” (1 Corinthians 2:3), mindful of the great and awesome nature of the work in which he was engaged.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. "Trembling" can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe.


endures to the end saved
Question: "What does it mean that he who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13)?"

Answer: In Matthew 24:13 Jesus says, “He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (KJV), or, as the NIV has it, “The one who stands firm to the end will be saved.” This verse is part of Jesus’ Olivet Discourse, an explanation to His disciples about things to come.

Jesus told the Twelve that the temple would be destroyed (Matthew 24:2), and, in response, they asked Him, “When will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (verse 3). Their question had two parts and so required two answers. Jesus combined those answers into one long discourse about what was ahead before He returned. Some of those prophecies were fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The remainder has yet to happen.

This specific verse is best understood when read in context. Verses Matthew 24:9–14 says, “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”

From God’s viewpoint outside our timeframe, the “end times” began with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2:16–21, Peter describes this event as “the last days.” From that perspective, it makes sense that Jesus combined events in AD 70 with those yet to come. They are all “the last days.” He then warns that, as persecution increases, many who considered themselves His followers will reveal their true spiritual condition when they turn away from the faith. This had already happened during His ministry (John 6:66) and would escalate until the end. True Christian faith would be tested by deception, false prophets, and the increase of wickedness. Not only will there be some who turn away, but Jesus foretold that “the love of most will grow cold.” The implication is that those who “stand firm to the end” will be the minority (see Matthew 7:14).

We can dissect this passage even further to glean relevant truths. Those who endure to the end and are saved will stand firm through persecution. Matthew 24:9 warns that Jesus’ followers would be “handed over to be persecuted and put to death.” From the time of the apostles until present day, millions of Christians have been persecuted and put to death. We are seeing an escalation of that in more recent days with global terrorism, but martyrdom has always been common in most areas of the world. Verse 9 goes on to state that Christians will “be hated by all nations because of me.” As Islam and atheism increase in nations that once held to Judeo-Christian values, we are seeing a greater fulfillment of this prophecy. Hatred can be expressed in many ways, one of which is the radical secularization of culture and governments that once honored time-tested morality and faith. When a culture actively strips from its history and public life any vestiges of God’s involvement in its success, that nation is displaying hatred toward Jesus.

Those who endure to the end and are saved will stand firm through ridicule and hatred. Matthew 24:10 says that when many turn away from the faith, they will “betray and hate each other.” With the proliferation of internet websites, blogs, and Facebook pages, we are seeing the polarization of opinions leading to angry diatribes and un-Christlike dialogue. Everyone has an opinion about everything, and opinion, it seems, has become a god worth defending through anger. Even among professing “Christians,” the comments and editorializing have taken a decidedly downward turn. Issues not worth dividing over have become hot-button topics that alienate brothers and sisters and, sadly, the unbelieving world. Issues that are worth dividing over have been swept under the rug in the name of “tolerance.” Anyone who does not bow to the god of tolerance becomes an object of ridicule and self-righteous hatred.

Those who endure to the end and are saved will stand firm through false teaching. Matthew 24:11 goes on to warn of “many false prophets” appearing and deceiving the masses. We tend to imagine a “false prophet” as a flamboyant type, easily spotted and easily rejected. However, if this were true, then many would not be deceived by them. Instead, the false prophets are men and women with outward displays of Christianity, charismatic charm, and a way with words. They weave their heresies with Scripture, just as Satan does (see Luke 4:1–10), so that those who do not know God’s Word thoroughly are taken in by their great-sounding teachings (2 Timothy 4:3–4). We are already seeing this take place with the explosion in recent years of hyper-grace teaching and the prosperity gospel. Millions are being deceived, with Bibles in their laps, because the words of the false prophets are ego-soothing, exciting, and more desirable than Scripture’s focus upon self-sacrifice and surrender.

Those who endure to the end and are saved will stand firm even in the midst of a rampantly sinful culture. Matthew 24:12 says that “because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.” This is a cause-and-effect statement that we are seeing played out before our eyes. As culture redefines reality according to its lusts and depravity, those clinging to scriptural definitions of sin are being quickly outnumbered. As wickedness becomes more popular and socially acceptable, people without a solid biblical worldview are being swept up by its grandiose promises. They are “rethinking” and “reevaluating” the Bible’s relevance in our modern world. The definitions of gender, sexuality, and morality are being challenged, even within some segments of the church, causing those unschooled in truth to collapse beneath the weight of these “new insights.” It is no wonder that the flicker of love that may have been ignited by the Holy Spirit is squelched in favor of a new love and a new god created in the image of the culture.

When Jesus says, “The one who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:13, ESV), He is speaking of those who are truly born again, whose lives are transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit. True followers of Jesus Christ will withstand the onslaught of wickedness, recognize and reject false teaching, and cling fast to the truth of God’s Word. They will overcome this world and be granted reward in the world to come (Revelation 3:21). Those who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22) have His power working in them to enable them to stand firm (Romans 14:4; Jude 1:24–25).

OLAADEGBU:
Is it not clear from these verses that a Christian can lose his faith through unbelief and the deceitfulness of sin and that we see the need to consciously be stedfast till the end for us to receive the final salvation?

When a person believes in Jesus Christ does he receive only a "partial" or "initial" or "temporary" salvation awaiting this "final salvation" you're alluding to here?

OLAADEGBU:
I couldn't have given a better response than the article/devotional posted below:

Since sin is "whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" James 2:10 THEN even ONE SIN disqualifies anyonefrom claiming a sin-free life.

In other words, a person who fails to KEEP one single command of God is GUILTY of sin.

SIN is not just murder, adultery, lying, and obvious sins that people usually look at. SIN is both a nature and exists even in thought - "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt. 5:28.

For example, how many Christians can HONESTLY CLAIM to obey Philippians 2: 3-4 "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others."

Now, if a Christian FAILS to obey Phil. 2: 3-4 will he be eventually saved?

Mightymanna:
Op why do you bother yourself to tell them the truth while they are:
DEAF DUMB AND BLIND THEY WILL NOT RETURN TO THE RIGHT PATH
( holy Quran 2:18)

the message is even more clear in the book deuteronomy( 18:18) where God said he will raise a prophet like moses from among the brothers of the jews which are the arabs and he shall speak what unto them all what I command him.

No one I repeat no will read a single chapter from the holy Quran and still doubt that it is not from the lord of the universe unless he fall on the category of people aforementioned people.

Must you make things just to 'prove' a lie?

Deuteronomy 18:18:

So the "brethren" referred to suddenly JUMPS from Moses' immediate brethren the Israelites to "Arabs .... brethren of Jews"

You guys just must go through so much rigmarole in order to justify what you want to.

Because the Prophet is to be "like unto" Moses you must then cook up similarities to provide reasons for your conceived position.

Let me show you something about Moses:
"Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, who did all those signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel." Deuteronomy 34:10-12

Notice that portion says 'whom the Lord knew face to face'.
Did God relate with Mohamed face to face?

LOOK at these and then tell us if Moses and Mohamed are equals:
(From answeringislam.org)


Muhammad not like Moses

1) Moses performed miraculous signs, Muhammad didn’t: “Why are not (signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?” (Surah 28:48)

2) Moses spoke directly with God, Muhammad didn’t: a) "And to Moses Allah spoke directly" (Surah 4:164). b) "it is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger" (Surah 42:51). c) The Hadith makes clear that Muhammad never saw his Lord. Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, No. 457: Narrated Aisha: “Whoever claimed that (the Prophet) Muhammad saw his Lord, is committing a great fault, for he only saw Gabriel in his genuine shape in which he was created covering the whole horizon.” Also in Bukhari Vol. 6, Book 60, No. 378: “Narrated Masruq: I said to 'Aisha, "O Mother! Did Prophet Muhammad see his Lord?" Aisha said, "What you have said makes my hair stand on end! Know that if somebody tells you one of the following three things, he is a liar: Whoever tells you that Muhammad saw his Lord, is a liar." Then Aisha recited the Verse: 'No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Courteous Well-Acquainted with all things.' (6.103) 'It is not fitting for a human being that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration or from behind a veil.' (42.51) 'Aisha further said, "And whoever tells you that the Prophet knows what is going to happen tomorrow, is a liar." She then recited: 'No soul can know what it will earn tomorrow.' (31.34) She added: "And whoever tell you that he concealed (some of Allah's orders), is a liar." Then she recited: 'O Apostle! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord...' (5.67) 'Aisha added. "But the Prophet saw Gabriel in his true form twice."”

3) Moses never thought he was demon-possessed, Muhammad did. Ibn Ishaq’s “Sirat Rasul Allah,” The Life of Muhammad translated by A. Guillaume, p. 106: (Muhammad Speaking) “Now none of God’s creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed — Never shall the Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest.”

4) Moses never tried to commit suicide, Muhammad did. See point 3 and the History of Tabari [1155], vol. 6, p. 76

5) Moses was clear-minded to the end, but Muhammad became delirious and mentally confused: Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 471: “Narrated 'Aisha: During his sickness, Allah's Apostle was asking repeatedly, "Where am I today? Where will I be tomorrow?" And I was waiting for the day of my turn (impatiently). Then, when my turn came, Allah took his soul away (in my lap) between my chest and arms and he was buried in my house.”

6) Moses never uttered verses from Satan but Muhammad had the Satanic Verses. (History of Tabari [1192-1193], vol. 6, p. 111) “Al-Qasim b. al-Hasan—al-Husayn b. Daud—Hajja—Abu Mashar—Muhammad b. Ka’b al-Qurazi and Muhammad b. Qays: The Messenger of God was sitting in a large gathering of Quraysh, wishing that day that no revelation would come to him from God which would cause them to turn away from him. Then God revealed:

By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived …

and the Messenger of God recited it until he came to:

Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-‘Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?

when Satan cast on his tongue two phrases:

These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is to be desired.

He uttered them and went on to complete the surah. When he prostrated himself at the end of the surah, the whole company prostrated themselves with him. Al-Walid b. al-Mughirah raised some dust to his forehead and bowed over that, since he was a very old man and could not prostrate himself. They were satisfied with what Muhammad had uttered and said, “We recognize that it is God who gives life and death, who creates and who provides sustenance, but if these gods of ours intercede for us with him, and if you give them a share, we are with you.”

That evening Gabriel came to him and reviewed the surah with him, and when he reached the two phrases which Satan had cast upon his tongue he said, “I did not bring you these two.” Then the Messenger of God said, “I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.” Then God revealed to him:

‘And they indeed strove hard to beguile you away from what we have revealed to you, that you should invent other than it against us…’” (Surah 17:73)

7) Muhammad admitted speaking presumptuously in the name of Allah, Al-at, Al-Uzza, and Manat, failing to meet the criteria given in Deut. 18:20: “But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.”

Moses was never bewitched, but Muhammad was (Al-Bukhari, vol. VII, no. 658). "Narrated Aisha: A man called Labid bin al-A’sam from the tribe of Bani Zaraiq worked magic on Allah’s Apostle until Allah’s Apostle started imagining that the had done a thing that he had not really done. One day or one night he was with us, he invoked Allah and invoked for a long period, and then said, ‘O Aisha! Do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I have asked him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other replied, ‘He is under the effect of magic.’ The first one asked, ‘Who has worked the magic on him?’ The other replied, ‘Labid bin Al-Asam’ …" (see also no. 660)

9) Moses believed he was a prophet before his wife did, Muhammad’s wife was the first to believe he was a prophet. The History of Tabari [1151], translated by W. Montgomery Watt, vol. 6, p. 72: “When I came to Khadijah, I sat down with my thigh next to hers, and she said to me, “Abu al-Qasim, where have you been? I sent messengers to look for you all the way to Mecca and back.” I said to her, “I am either a poet or a madman,” but she answered, “May God save you from that, Abu al-Qasim! God would not do that to you, considering what I know of your thruthfulness, your great trustworthiness, your good character, and your good treatment of your kinfolk. It is not that, cousin. Perhaps you did see something.” “Yes,” I said, and then told her what I had seen. “Rejoice, cousin, and stand firm,” she said. “By Him is whose hand is Khadijah’s soul, I hope that you may be the prophet of this community.”

10) God persuaded Moses that he was a prophet by miraculous signs of a burning bush that was not consumed (Exodus 3:2) and other miraculous signs (Exodus 4), Muhammad was persuaded by his wife Khadija taking off her clothes. Ibn Ishaq’s "Sirat Rasul Allah", The Life of Muhammad, translated by A. Guillaume, p. 107: “Isma'il b. Abu Hakim, a freedman of the family of al-Zubayr, told me on Khadija's authority that she said to the apostle of God, 'O son of my uncle, are you able to tell me about your visitant, when he comes to you ?' He replied that he could, and she asked him to tell her when he came. So when Gabriel came to him, as he was wont, the apostle said to Khadija, 'This is Gabriel who has just come to me.' 'Get up, O son of my uncle,' she said, 'and sit by my left thigh'. The apostle did so, and she said, 'Can you see him?' 'Yes,' he said. She said, 'Then turn round and sit on my right thigh.' He did so, and she said, 'Can you see him?' When he said that he could she asked him to move and sit in her lap. When he had done this she again asked if he could see him, and when he said yes, she dis­closed her form and cast aside her veil while the apostle was sitting in her lap. Then she said, 'Can you see him?' And he replied, 'No.' She said, 'O son of my uncle, rejoice and be of good heart, by God he is an angel and not a satan.'”

11) Muhammad said he was different from all other prophets, that would include Moses: Bukhari Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind."

12) Muhammad’s god is not like Moses’ God: Allah is called the greatest of all deceivers (Surah 3:54) Makareen, translated plotter or schemer, means deceivers, double crossers. Moses’ God does not lie or go back on his word. "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19) For more on this, see Allah: Truthful or Deceiver? In our next passage we find that, unlike YHWH, Allah doesn’t make good on all that he has spoken but abrogates much of it.

13) Moses didn’t abrogate his own revelations, Muhammad did. Surah 2:106 (Pickthall) “Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?”

We could list many other things such as Moses never married the wife of his adopted son, Moses was a Jew, Moses was literate (Mark 12:19, John 5:46) Muhammad was not, the manner of Moses’ revelations were quite different from that of Muhammad, etc. Yet there is something more fundamental:


Muslims need to prove that Muhammad was a prophet

Before discussing whether Muhammad was “the prophet like unto Moses” mentioned in Deuteronomy, Muslims must first prove that Muhammad was a prophet. Statements in the Quran, Hadith, and Sirat make it very difficult for Christians to believe Muhammad was a prophet. Muhammad & Allah said the sun set in a muddy pool (Surah 18:86; cf. this article); Samaritans built the golden calf at the time of Moses (Surah 20:85-95), (the Samaritans didn’t exist until after the Assyrian captivity many hundreds of years after Moses). Muhammad & Allah were ignorant of the Christian religion, claiming we worship the father the mother and the son (Surah 5:73-75,116; cf. this article), and ignorant of the Jews religion, claiming they believed Ezra was the son of God (Surah 9:30) Worse yet, Muhammad failed the Quran’s own test.

OLAADEGBU:
I will address this when convenient. Thanks for making your point.

Looking forward to your response.

Haroun13:
What trial are you looking for. The man committed treason. Mind you, that was 7th century Arabia, so, don't come here to paint black, what you do not understand, a situation in the 7th century, by using your opinions from the 21st century. Please, be reasonable.

And it was indeed clear to everyone.

You are talking about a legal process? I'm talking about 7th century Arabia, and you are looking for a building with a blindfolded person holding a scale and a sword in front, and a man wearing a wig, and black robe, holding perhaps a gavel, and sitting behind a cabinet, with a witness box, and lawyers of the defendant and the state. Please come out of your delusion.

7th century AD Arabia was well developed in many areas. It was not as backward as many of you are made to believe or you want to have us think. They may not have had the 21st century technology but they were certainly CIVILIZED in many fronts.

Here are excerpts from a study by the University of Oxford - http://krc.orient.ox.ac.uk/aalc/index.php/en/
on Arabia of those days:
“The numerous and diverse cultures which developed in ancient Arabia are monuments to human ingenuity and creativity within challenging natural environments. The ancient Arabs had extensive contacts not only with their Near Eastern neighbours, Iran, Mesopotamia, the Levant, Egypt and the peoples of the Mediterranean, but also with Africa and India. From a very early period, Arabs are reported as living in many parts of the Middle East and they were famous merchants. They were particularly associated with frankincense and myrrh which grew in southern Arabia, and other aromatics which they imported from Africa, India and beyond, and sold on to neighbouring peoples. This commerce in what were some of the most valuable commodities in the ancient world, together with their strategic geographical position in the Middle East meant that the Arabs were deeply involved in the life of the region and, from at least the 6th century BC, attracted the interest of the Greeks and later of Rome.
Literacy was widespread throughout ancient Arabia from at least the early 1st millennium BC, and vast numbers of inscriptions in a variety of languages and scripts have been discovered there, with more coming to light every year. Arabia was unique in the ancient world in having its own branch of the alphabet (the South Semitic script family), varieties of which were used from the far north of the Peninsula to the south. It survives in the script used for Ge'ez, Amharic, etc. in Ethiopia.”


It doesn’t take “a building with a blindfolded person holding a scale and a sword in front, and a man wearing a wig, and black robe, holding perhaps a gavel, and sitting behind a cabinet, with a witness box, and lawyers of the defendant and the state” to have some jurisprudence.

Jurisprudence existed in Rome and with other peoples well before even the 1st century AD.

The region had a highly organized system of trade and commerce. Do you think they ran such without clearly defined rules?

Very minute details of Mohamed’s life were recorded. Who do think wrote these details – dummies?

And you think that when it comes to the administration of justice they are suddenly backward into the Stone Age?

There was a fairly well organized system of doing things. If Mohamed NEVER followed them it was not because 7th century Arabia was that PRIMITIVE. It was because Mohamed chose to resort to Neolithic way of handling things.

That ISIS chose barbaric means and ways to operate the way they do does not mean 21st century Arabia is
undeveloped; does it?

To choose to using JUNGLE JUSTICE speaks volume about the kind of person Mohamed was! Unfortunately, even though IT MAY be embarrassing to SOME Moslems (certainly not majority), the history of Mohamed cannot be told WITHOUT the mention of HIS violence, deceit and self-aggrandizement.

That's like saying that during a war, a man can leave his state, and go to another state, and incite them to fight against his state. And when he is found out, he is given an award of excellence by his state which he just betrayed. Congrats.

What WAR are you really talking about? Tell us. Who was fighting who? Give us the real setting so that we can appreciate things better.

First, I did not mean that Jesus (peace be upon him) is no longer a prophet of God, but rather, what I meant is that even if you were following his true teachings, if you do not follow the last prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him), you are wasting your time. And I went on to say that you are not even following his true teaching.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is in the heavens, just like Moses, Abraham, and other prophets of God, as we know, from the narration of the night journey of the prophet.
Also, Jesus (peace be upon him) is going to come, live and die as we understand from Qur'an 19:33 and 3:185.
Concerning judgement, it is unlikely that the messengers of God will be judged, but I do not have sufficient references to back this claim yet.

So if I follow the TRUE TEACHINGS of Jesus but not Mohamed, I'm wasting my time? According to you Moslems wasn’t Jesus supposed to be a Moslem who proclaimed Islam? In that case, wouldn’t his TRUE TEACHINGS not be the same as Mohamed’s?
Now, are you beginning to SEE that your TRUE worship is ACTUALLY IDOLATROUS? You worship BOTH Allah and Mohamed. Not one God as you claim. That is why you DAILY give reverence to Mohamed. DAILY!! Indeed like I’ve pointed out earlier, Islam and the quran are more about your SECOND OBJECT OF WORSHIP – Mohamed – than it is about Allah himself.

Of course. The cowardice of man knows no bounds. That you believe that someone that wasn't there when you where stealing, or watching inappropriate things paid for your sins. What a delusion. Besides, that means if I accept that Jesus has died for my sins, then I can do anything I like, whether right or wrong, because someone already paid for it. Kudos. What a good way to deceive yourself.

I think DELUSION is when a person thinks he can stack up enough good deeds to qualify for God’s approval. How many good deeds does it take to make it to Paradise – 5 pillars for how many times and how many years? Is it to just fulfil the RITUALS no matter how else you live your life – lying, deceiving, etc or how bad you think towards others? DELUSION is when in the face of the quran’s uncertain assurance of Paradise you still grab on to that straw.

Jesus was UNIQUE and lived an exemplary life. Those are FACTS. He was the ONLY one that lived a life that pleased God by ALL standards. By going to the Cross he showed that he was willing to die as a substitute for everyone else. God accepted his sacrifice of himself. Doesn’t it make sense then that anyone who comes to God through him will be saved?

Jesus said: “I am the way, and the TRUTH, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me” John 14:6
He still is the way, the truth and the life.

Haroun13:
........
I have no issue with the killing of Kab bin Al ashraf. His was a matter of treason. His people agreed to a pact/treaty with the Muslims, of which he was a member. And one of the stipulations of the treaty was that no person involved was to aid the enemies of either parties. But Kab bin Al ashraf went against that by inciting the pagan Arabs to war against the Muslims and not just that, but also slandering the women with his poetry.
..........
Please tell me where in the world treason against the state has been rewarded. The punishment for treason is death.
...........
It was necessary for it to be done that way, considering the fact that the banu qaynuqa already displayed their treachery, Kab's people would have resorted to violence, and innocent lives would have been lost, even if it was clear to them that their kinsman had committed treason. In order to avoid such blood shed, it had to be done that way.

This part is clear. Kab committed treason.

It was necessary to prevent loss of innocent lives like I explained above.

You need to be open minded to see that this was the best way to go about it. Now just imagine the ruckus it would have caused, if they had made it an open affair. Mind you, the banu Nadir later declared war against the Muslims, breaking the pact. Now imagine what they would have done, knowing their kinsman was to be executed, even if it was for treason.

Under no circumstances did Jesus (peace be upon him) and those who followed him enter a pact with, say the Pharisees for example, and was betrayed by one of them. The circumstances are incomparable.

You are trying to twist things here. Where did I say lying is a norm. In fact, I said that lying is indeed a sin, and a major one. But thankfully, God has made life easy for everyone, and as such in matters of life and death, it could be permissible, if it would save the life of the person in danger, provided other innocent people are not endangered in the process. I gave you the example of the story of a woman and her husband, whose home was invaded by robbers. You can point out what is wrong from that story.

Let’s not lose sight of this:
The man was said in the Hadith to “hurt Allah and his Prophet”. When did slander of a prophet become treason? If a head of a government is slandered, how does that become an offense against the state? However in order for you Moslems to explain away your Prophet’s decadence you resort to REINTERPRETING words and stories to polish his image.

Let me simplify issues.
If like it is claimed in that article there was a “promulgated law” – now, we are not even sure whether it was a LAW or pact/treaty; you may need to clarify because the two are not quite the same – why was a proper SETTING not constituted to examine the matter or try the alleged offender? IF an agreement was drawn up or a law put in place what were the terms and conditions - it MUST be clear to ALL the parties involved; shouldn't it? Or was a one-sided law or agreement that only Mohamed had all the details and power to execute?

Why a kangaroo court?

Why was judgement and punishment given outside a proper legal process?

These all the more confirm my position that Mohamed had NO MORALITY.

And btw, this is ONLY one out of many other occasions that people were murdered with Mohamed’s approval or on his instigation. This (extra judicial killing) was done REPEATEDLY even when the circumstances varied.

If Mohamed ran an OPEN government or system why then resort to SECRECY? If everybody KNOWS the LAW or agreement and someone has been seen to have violated it, why would it difficult to have A FAIR HEARING to PROVE to everyone that such a person has broken the law or agreement and is liable to the PRESCRIBED(?) punishment?

This man in question ONLY used poetry. He did not carry arms. Yet this was enough for him to be SECRETLY executed.

So, again I ask: Since the man allegedly violated a law or agreement which, I suppose, was PUBLICLY KNOWN why the resort to a Kangaroo Court to try an offender? Do you want us to now believe that those who were BRILLIANT ENOUGH to draw up Laws and Agreements suddenly LOSE ALL CIVILITY when it comes to executing such rules and regulations?

Surely the Arabian world of the 7th century must have been better organized than that!

The time of the prophethood of Jesus (peace be upon him) ended 1400 years ago. Jesus (peace be upon him) cannot save you now, even if you were following his true teachings [except you follow him, and the last and final prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him)]. But you are not even following his teachings to begin with.

Can you prove that Jesus’ prophethood ended? It still continues till today since he is still alive. He is only one who can be DEFINITELY said to be with God not awaiting any judgement – Q. 4:158 and referred to as SAVIOUR (Messiah) even in the quran.
His saving work does not depend on following any set of teaching. His saving work is in what he did on the cross. His offer still stands today:
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavily burdened [by religious rituals that provide no peace], and I will give you rest [refreshing your souls with salvation]. Matt. 11:28.

OLAADEGBU:
That's a risky position to take. Let's see what the Scriptures say:

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (Revelation 3:11).

Quick fire questions:

1. Who said this (Jesus/Father/Angel)?
2. To whom (Saints/Sinners)?
3. When was this said (To OT/NT Saints)?
4. What were they to hold fast?
5. Was it possible to lose their crown?

It was possible for them to lose their "CROWNS"
The question then is 'What does the CROWN stand for?

Haroun13
You are allowing your bias towards Islam to cloud your judgement. Like the example I gave, a fasting person, breaking his fast before dusk is a grave sin, but if for example, that person has, say an accident, and after treatment, he is asked by the doctor to eat, he should eat, and break the fast, because it's a matter of life and death. So also, in a situation of life and death, lying can be permitted.
For example, the story a of woman and her husband, whose house was raided by robbers. The woman was brave but unarmed. The man on the other hand had a machete, but was shivering because he was scared. When the woman saw the situation, she told the robbers that when her husband starts shivering like that, he is ready to kill, even though that wasn't true. But she said that to the robbers, and as a result, they left.

Well, I have not seen any war where one side tells the other side their true plans and tactics, that would be plain stupid.

If you have a problem with the verse, put it forward.

Baseless.

Mohamed, in hadith Sahih Bukhari is stated to have said: “If I take an oath and later find something else better, I do what is better and break my oath”.
This is Islam’s ‘exemplary’ prophet saying he can go back on a promise he made.

https://www.bismikaallahuma.org/islam/what-about-the-killing-of-kaab-bin-al-ashraf/
Visit that site concerning the killing of Kaab bin al ashraf.
Salaam

Now on the same hadith (Bukhari) 5:59:369 which I quoted:
“Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?’ Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, ‘O Allah’s Apostle would you like that I kill him?’ The Prophet said “Yes”, Muhammad bin Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). The Prophet said, “You may say it”.

Look at what a comment on the SITE you referred me to said: “By slandering the Prophet, … and by showing sympathy for the enemies of the Muslims (lamenting their dead and inciting them against the Muslims) …. His blood could be shed with IMPUNITY. (Emphasis mine).
The article goes on to say: “The exigencies of the State required that WHATEVER SHOULD BE DONE should be done swiftly and noiselessly upon those whom public opinion had arraigned and condemned”. (Emphasis mine).

There are many things to say against that article, but in order not to complicate the trend here suffice it to say that taking the CONCLUSION of the article ALONE is enough to put a nail to its coffin. How can a person say there is INFRINGEMENT of “the PROMULGATED LAW” and then claim that a SECRET EXECUTION was justified in administering judgement? What is “public opinion” doing arraigning and condemning IF a “promulgated Law” exists? Where they in a BANANA REPUBLIC? And then to add a DISCLAIMER he ends as many of you have learnt to do – “And only God knows best!”

This is obviously an attempt to make the VICTIM the VILLAIN in order to COVER UP the Prophet of Islam. Unfortunately it does not add up to any objective scrutiny.

This is a ‘Prophet’ calling for the DEATH of someone who offended him, then approving that LIE be told in order to achieve such a despicable thing.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCE did Jesus engage in nor prescribe any such thing as these!

If lying can be made permissible then the human being can ALWAYS find a REASON to make the lie fall under what is permissible. When that happens the lying becomes norm rather than an exception.

The summary is this: Mohamed had no MORALITY. The end justified the means for him. Clearly LYING was one of those means for him as Islamic literature unmistakably show.

Only a change of heart which only Jesus Christ can bring about can truly change a person to be what God wants him to be. That is why he said: “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavily burdened [by religious rituals that provide no peace], and I will give you rest [refreshing your souls with salvation]. Matt. 11:28.

Haroun13:
I hope you are posting for knowledge.
Lying is a sin, and a major one, no doubt. But Allah, (Glorified and Exalted) is He has created us, and knows us better than we know ourselves, and has made life easy for us. In a matter of life and death, something which is normally prohibited could be made permissible.
For example, when fasting, deliberately eating food during the fasting hours is a grave sin. But if it becomes a matter of life and death, then one can eat, and it is no sin on him.

If lying is prohibited BUT could be made permissible what are we to make of it? That there is really no standard of MORALITY in Islam?

Mohamed raided caravans all over the Arabian Peninsula. In virtually every one, Moslems were the aggressors, pushing to accomplish the big objective of taking over the economic and political power in the region.

In the çourse of the battle of the Trenches Mohamed plotted deceit.

A recent convert to Islam, Nuaym, of the Ghatafan tribe, offered to be part of the deception plan. Muhammad set out on a plan, using Nuaym’s affiliations with the Quraysh and the Jews:

The apostle said: 'You are only one man among us, so go and awake distrust among the enemy to draw them
off us if you can, for war is deceit.' Thereupon Nutaym went off to B. Quray?

Sura 33:25-27:

25 Allah turned back the unbelievers [Meccans and their allies] in a state of rage, having not won any good, and Allah spared the believers battle [q-t-l]. Allah is, indeed, Strong and Mighty. 26 And He brought those of the People of the Book [Qurayza] who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts, some of them you slew [q-t-l] and some you took captive. 27 And he bequeathed to you their lands, their homes and their possessions, together with land you have never trodden. Allah has power over everything.

Eventually the Jews accepted to sign some form of agreement. But Mohamed reneged on this and ended up murdering the hundreds of Jews including young boys.

For example, in Hadith (Bukhari) 5:59.369, Moslems can lie and pretend in some situations:
"Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."

There is the answer as to whether Muslims can lie and do much more.

OLAADEGBU:
Don't be so sure.

1. Salvation is not what a person works for.
Salvation is a GIFT from God.

2. For the Christian to lose his salvation then he has to be:
Un-born again
Un-redeemed
Un-justified
Separated from the love of God
God's seal of guarantee removed
God's FREE GIFT withdrawn
Un-etc, etc.

3. If a sin- free life is NECESSARY for salvation, AND that can only be known when a person lives "sin-free" at the point of death, then NOBODY can truly say he is "SAVED" yet and perhaps not really until in eternity.

4. Since sin is "whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" James 2:10 THEN even ONE SIN disqualifies anyone from claiming a sin-free life.

5. In other words, a person who fails to KEEP one single command of God is GUILTY of sin.

6. SIN is not just murder, adultery, lying, and obvious sins that people usually look at. SIN is both a nature and exists even in thought - "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matt. 5:28.

7. For example, how many Christians can HONESTLY CLAIM to obey Philippians 2: 3-4 "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others."

8. How many Christians "value others above" themselves?
How many Christians look to "the interests of the others"?
How many can SINCERELY answer in the affirmative to these two questions? And these are God's instructions for the Christian.

9. So ANY CHRISTIAN who thinks he qualifies for eternity with God because he lived a sin-free life must be PERFECT!

10. Salvation is therefore either a GIFT through and through or else impossible for man to work for.

lfleak:
do you accept the Old testament?
Yes or No

Is Mohamed's biography there?
That may interest me.
So, tell me.

lfleak:
basic English is even a huge problem to you... Face the catch22 broyo..

Empiree & yourself should note this:


If you would rather go with Mohamed - who without cause ruthlessly attacked and plundered others, took men, women, and children as slaves, giving the female slaves to his soldiers as their property and his soldiers using the slaves for their sexual pleasure; slave women who were allowed to be raped because they were seen as mere property - Than the Prince of PEACE - Jesus Christ, the choice is yours. But THE DIFFERENCE IS CLEAR!

Here is one who was morally bankrupt (unless you can PROVE this wrong ) and the other - Jesus Christ - who was "holy, blameless, unstained [by sin], separated from sinners and exalted higher than the heavens;" (Hebrews 7:26).

One was NOT SURE where he and his followers would end up. The other is the author and provider of eternal life and CONFIDENTLY DECLARED so.

The CONTRAST is unmistakable to common sense; even by Islamic evidence alone.

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matt. 11:28

When in the face of GLARING EVIDENCE a man decides to turn the other way, he can only be allowed to face the consequences of his decision.

Free thinking is, not just restricted, but shut off in Islam. Empiree, Ifleak and their like, consciously or unconsciously, have to fight against common sense when faced with issues they've been CONDITIONED to passively accept without any question.

They need to come to the realization that Jesus, The UNIQUE ONE whom the quran itself says is the MESSIAH (the Christ, the Saviour) and who ALONE according to the quran was given the power to raise the dead, is their ONLY hope for eternity with God.

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12

lfleak:
With these, true2god + plainbibletruth couldn't escape my catch22.
If only you can even try...

It clear that it's you and your partner who are CAUGHT in your 2+2 = 5 prayer tangle

Bottom line: Islam needs to call a CONFERENCE, agree on what to harmonize in its holy books and come up with a new and more widely acceptable Islam.

Otherwise Islam will SELF-DESTRUCT!.

lfleak:
your own case is even worse that true2god...
now open your mind and listen for the very last time...

1. Yes, the Qur'an is fully detailed. The Quran doesn't depend on other books rather, other books depends on the Qur'an. Other books serve as SUPPLIMENTARY ( according to google.com and dictonary.com means to enhancing something.)

2. As illustrated above, it's present in Qur'an, not by deduction but by common sense.

While you and your mate go online to search for SUPPOSED flaws in the Quran and Islam, all the flaws have been flawed, so I will advice you to continue bringing them to open your mind.

Mind you, you might want to help your brother true2god to lift the Catch22 trap he entered since morning...

You need to calm down. These issues have eternal consequences so don't make them play issues.

Let's look at your comments.
Supplement means:
something that is added to something else in order to make it complete

Enhance:
to increase or improve (something)

Summary : The other books add to the quran to make it complete and better improved for comprehension. Therefore the quran's claim to be CLEAR ARABIC, FULLY DETAILED and CLARIFFICATION FOR ALL THINGS is false.

You even alluded to this when you wrote:

"However, you can't expect it to contain step by step description (if that is the case, it will be taller than 6ft in size) because it covers almost everything. That is where the MESSENGER comes in."

2. Neither the number 5 nor a listing in words of five times of prayer is found in the quran. We have proven that. You had to look for the 5 prayers by combining two verses to try to add up your figures without success. Your partner was not too helpful either.

Summary : Many practices in Islam are based on traditions rather any clear quranic injunctions.

lfleak:
If am to make things simply, I will have to axe your skull, then communicate with your brain directly....

You only need to answer the questions in “simple readable sentences”. Those words in quotes are your words.

Why resort to Jihadist tactic?

1. DOES Islam DEPEND on the quran AND on other books even when the quran says it has given EVERYTHING IN DETAILS?

2. Praying 5 times a day is NOT SPECIFICALLY stated in the quran but have to be arrived at by deduction. Right?

Empiree:
Exit if you have nothing to say. His question is answered

The question was - show from the quran where it says 5 times a day prayers.

What did you guys do - 1 + 1 divided by plus minus square root of multiplied by, .... bla bla bla

Remember the quran is supposed to be VERY PLAIN or CLEAR so, why the complications?

lfleak:
Good! you both switched to learning mode.

1. Yea, the QURAN already addressed ALL the points you will need to be on the right path. BUT the PRACTISE was done by the prophet... A chemist somewhere has written a textbook on everything about Chemical reaction, then you won't understand unless being explained and practised in real life to you. same applies.

2. Like I said earlier above; It is the messenger that will teach and demonstrate HOW TO, WHEN TO, WHERE TO WHY TO WHO TO I have already touched out the 5 compulsory prayers above. If you expect me to show you where it is written like "O muslims, pray 5 times a day" then you are wrong.

1. So you admit that Islam DEPENDS not only on the quran BUT on other books even when the quran says it has given EVERYTHING IN DETAILS. Right?

2. See your post:

"SO (GIVE) GLORY TO ALLAH, WHEN YE REACH EVENTIDE AND WHEN YE RISE IN THE MORNING;" 18 "YEA,TO HIM BE PRAISE, IN THE HEAVENS AND ON EARTH; AND IN THE LATE AFTERNOON AND WHEN THE DAY BEGINS TO DECLINE."

Nothing here states 5 times a day prayers. "EVENTIDE", "LATE AFTERNOON" and "WHEN THE DAY BEGINS TO DECLINE" mean the same thing. Unless you can prove otherwise.

Your friend tried to put some figures together to arrive at 5.

It appears the quran DOES NOT ACTUALLY say 5 and so it has to take some RIGMAROLE to confirm Islam's established position.

Can you make things simpler?

Empiree:
In addition to the above, the sentence أقِمِ الصلاة = establish prayer (singular form) was quoted 5 times in the Quran. The sentence أقيموا الصلاة= establish prayer (plural form) was quoted 12 times in the Quran.

As we know 12+5=17 which is the sum of the raka'at of our daily fard prayers!

The Verse 1 from above is written in the moshaf as follows حَفِظُوا عَلَى الصَّلَوَتِ وَالصَّلَوةِ الْوُسْطَى وَقُومُوا لِلَّهِ قَنِتِينَ.

If we count the number of Arabic letters at the right and left from the expression وَالصَّلَوةِ الْوُسْطَى = and the middle prayer.

We find it to be the exact middle of the Verse and each part at the left and right has 14 Arabic letters and if we ignore the independence of the letter "وَ" before "قُومُوا لِلَّهِ قَنِتِينَ" (and this makes this count a bit weak in my opinion) we could say that each part left right and middle of this Verse consists of 3 words and again 3+14=17.


Now, since you claimed you follow Jesus, kindly show us HOW TO PRAY in Christianity as "legislated" by Jesus?

Whao!

So you have to go through all these arithmetic to arrive at 5 times a day prayers?

Please congratulate yourself!

lfleak:
spot on!

Your posts:

hadith are written by people who lived several years after the prophet, they couple their story based on Hearsay... Hearsay stories will always have 2 form, it will contain the truth and the false... The Quran is the tool which will separate the truth from the false..

to teach me Islam, you will have to go back to primary scholl to learn simple sentence, you are even finding it hard to string words together to form a legif readable sentence..
Adultery, Drinking alcohol, going to hajj, praying are all mentioned in the Quran... But the PRACTISE( how to do it, where to do it, when to do it why to do it) were done by the prophet to show how to implement them and so recorded in the hadith... If the sharia doesn't comply with the Quran, it is INVALID...

I have just 2 issues I need you to clarify:
Please explain them in “simple readable sentences” so that those of us who are not as well read as you are can comprehend easily.
1. If the quran says in 6:114: "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters."

And in 6:38 had said:"We did not leave anything out of this book"

Then in 16:89 it says this:"And [mention] the Day when We will resurrect among every nation a witness over them from themselves. And We will bring you, [O Muhammad], as a witness over your nation. And We have sent down to you the Book as clarification for all things and as guidance and mercy and good tidings for the Muslims."

Additionally in 18:54 that:"....He has revealed to you this book fully detailed"

Why does Islam need ANOTHER SET OF BOOKS for “PRACTISE of the laws” as you claim in one of your above pasted posts when the quran says in 6:114 – "....the Book explained in detail" and that “We DID NOT leave anything out of this book” (6:38) and also that “EXPLANATIONS” have been provided for “EVERYTHING” in “this book” i.e. the quran?
When 6:114 says it has revealed things “FULLY DETAILED” why do you need another book to give ADDITIONAL details as to the “PRACTISE”?
Is it that the quran is then not FULLY DETAILED and does not give ”EXPLANATIONS” for “EVERYTHING” ? And if so, is the quran’s claim not wrong if Moslems have to resort to the hadith and other sources at all for whatever clarification?

2. Is your praying 5 times a day SPECIFICALLY instructed in the quran? If so, where is that number of times of prayers (i.e. 5) commanded in the quran?

I await your response.

lfleak:
hadith are written by people who lived several years after the prophet, they couple their story based on Hearsay... Hearsay stories will always have 2 form, it will contain the truth and the false... The Quran is the tool which will separate the truth from the false..

So you're saying that you will rather go with the quran than the hadith, right?

true2god:
So you hadith is so boring to you.

You got it!

There are so many questions about their holy books which they CANNOT answer truthfully.

lfleak:
its all up there, again I ask you.. This your last line, to whom was the statement addressed to?

Don’t confuse yourself.
See some of my previous posts:

Because Muslims are unable to explain the contradictions in the quran and are blinded to the degenerate life of mohammed they resort to looking for how to discredit the Bible.

What the Muslim is actually saying is something like this: "If your Holy Book and Prophets are as corrupt as ours, then it's ok for ours to have the lapses you claim"
You must agree that is warped thinking!

It is most likely that Muslims are willing to accept these SHORTCOMINGS because they do not place much demand on them and also because those lapses suit their lifestyles.

"Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs"
- Jonah 2:8

Majority of Muslims live in DENIAL.
Even when they are CLEARLY shown how bankrupt mohammed was morally or even in integrity they choose to turn the other way.
Show them the contradictions in the pieced-together Quran and the next thing they do is lamely attempt to discredit the Bible.
They are either AFRAID of scrutinizing their "holy" book/books or they are ashamed that admitting to the weaknesses of their prophet and books will make them look foolish.

It's truly amazing how millions live in self-deception and even in the face of clear evidence refuse to accept the truth.

"Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs"
- Jonah 2:8

You’ve not been able to put forward any reasonable thing about your prophet.
What does that show you?

lfleak:
Truth? Where is it..? You are even yet to refute any of my own point ..

Your last line, to whom was that statement for?

Refute! Refute! Refute!

Yet to refute what? Nonsense?

Did you even attempt to respond to my very first post on this thread, not to talk of refuting it? You have not!

Yet here you are talking about refuting.

For your information, there are silent readers who are being guided aright.

You may want to refute this also!

So, for starters, what is your refutation of my posts, starting with my first post?


"Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 14: 6