₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
Of course their imperfect human intellect led them to think they can eradicate poverty among themselves not God's Holy Spirit!

I can understand. That question makes you uncomfortable. It can slide. But show respect to God's word abeg. They didn't want to eradicate poverty for God's sake. I have wondered if youre actually a JW.

HISSCRIBE1995:
I noticed that the jehova witnesses around me usually feel uncomfortable when a christian song is been played but they are quick to dance and sing along to secular (even ungodly ) songs.
They seems not to like hearing a christian sermon but would prefer to listen to sermons from other faith (islam)

Now the question is - why do these people react this way but chose to be more positive to unchristian subject rather than christian subject of which they are already familiar with.
It is also a wonder that these people Choose not to be identified as Christians (please if I'm wrong with this assertions you can correct me)
I think these organizations need to be studied very well to see why they Choose to be the way they are (their doctrines, and differences in scriptures)

If you know anything about this group called jehova witnesses, or had experienced some of their reactions, please share so that the church and general public can know more about them and their beliefs without castigasting anyone.

What you need to know is that many Jehovah's witnesses don't even know what their organization teach. Trust me on this. Few that I have met here on nairaland is one example of this. If you know there teaching so we'll, you will know they don't even know what their Governing Body reach.

Some witnesses don't know the difference between secular christian songs and liturgical songs. There organization condemns liturgical songs, that's what they prohibit. They do not prohibit secular Christian songs like the one sang by Chinwo, Sinach, Frank Edward etc. But even many of their church leaders don't know this. The same way most of them don't know their organization don't prohibit beard. All they need to be careful about is only the lyrics.

Their organization will be happy if they play those gospel song more than the secular non christian pop they play and dance shamelessly.

However, their members are worldly deep within.

MaxInDHouse:
Ọmọ that's the undeniable truth!

God's people has never for once gotten things perfectly but despite their blunders they will continue doing God's will that no other group or organization can do!

So stop deceiving yourself blunders is evidence that we are IMPERFECT humans but ability to fulfil God's promise is evidence that God's Holy Spirit is WORKING with imperfect humans!

I repeat:

However, you agree they didn't flip flop under the spirit leading. Agree?
It's not just application, if God doesn't tell you anything supernatural, and plainly, you are likely to reach wrong conclusions. However, when you have reach that wrong conclusions, it is not the holy spirit that led you to it. Your intellect led you there. Do we agree?

MaxInDHouse:
You're the one mixing things up for yourself.

The Holy Spirit is not responsible for blunders that's the effect of imperfection in humans but how do you know that God's Holy Spirit is working with imperfect humans?
Despite their blunders they will achieve what God promised!

Your avoiding flip flop makes me conclude that you don't believe they flip flopped.

No, how you know whom God is using clearly is by His telling you through vision, dreams or miracles as He pours His spirit. If not, you can think that your work is being done for God when in fact you're working against Him.

Neither Paul nor the Pharisees knew that God had rejected them. Only through supernatural works performed by the apostles could be the prove that God has shifted His attention. Your publication agrees with that.

If God has not told you anything, you may actually be wasting your time thinking you're in His organization.

MaxInDHouse:
The matter is simple:

No servant of God has perfect understanding of what the Holy Spirit is revealing except Jesus Christ, all servants of God even though they were inspired do commit blunders during the application of what God's Holy Spirit inspired them to pen down.

So there's a big difference between inspiration and application when it comes to inspiration God's Holy Spirit delivers the message perfectly to imperfect humans and they pen it down just as they were inspired. The Governing Body weren't inspired so it's only the application they're working on and just like all other imperfect servants of God in the past they also committed blunders but despite their blunders they're the one and only group that has achieved what Jesus promised that we will see as evidence that God is with mankind! John 13:34-35

Remember you're the one calling there mistake blunders. Not me. You should be careful though.

However, you agree they didn't flip flop under the spirit leading. Agree?

It's not just application, if God doesn't tell you anything supernatural, and plainly, you are likely to reach wrong conclusions. However, when you have reach that wrong conclusions, it is not the holy spirit that led you to it. Your intellect led you there. Do we agree?

MaxInDHouse:
The Apostles surely committed blunders!

Jesus taught them that it's not possible to eradicate poverty for now {Mark 14:7} yet that is exactly what they tried to do which led to the death of a Christian couple! Act 5:1-11
So you can't deny that they never committed blunders even though they were baptized with Holy Spirit!

It is revealing how you insult Jesus apostles because you want to protect human organization. Your interpretation of that was wrong. Even if it was true, it's not a spirit led flip flop. Try again.

MaxInDHouse:
Walahi talahi you're not a Bible student you only read the Bible!

Now let's go back to what Jesus said himself.

@ Matthew 16:16 Jesus said it's God's Holy Spirit that revealed something to Peter right?
Few minutes later that same day Jesus said what Peter said again was according to flesh in fact to show that the next thing that's coming from the same Peter is worse Jesus called Peter "Satan" {Matthew 16:23} So it's very possible for God's Holy Spirit to speak through a person and Satan to confuse the same person with human reasoning but did Jesus changed his mind regarding Peter being the ROCK upon which the congregation will be built? Matthew 16:18
NO!

Well did Peter or Jesus say the holy spirit told Peter to rebuke Jesus? Was it the spirit's leading? Or did Jesus later say, "oh sorry Peter you know it was not Satan that made you rebuke me, that act was in fact the truth from my Father"?

Are you saying that Satan revealed some so called truth to Russell?

MaxInDHouse:
Obviously you don't know the meaning of the word "FALSE"
Ordained minister under Christ have a duty:
To ORGANIZE Jesus' sheep so that they go on preaching zealously and industriously teaching in all their neighbourhood {Matthew 28:19-20} with that the result is that among all adherents of their TEACHINGS there must be no division {1Corinthians 1:10; Ephesians 4:3} and LOVE will permeate their gathering so that all those adhering to their teachings will no longer think of lifting weapons against anyone again as disciples of the Prince of Peace! Act 1:8

Did the GOVERNING BODY of Jehovah's Witnesses meet up with this assignment?

If they do whatever errors they made while doing it is irrelevant because errors only shows that they are imperfect humans just like the first century Jewish Apostles!

Changing the topic is a craft taught to Jehovah's witnesses. And you seem to have learned that well. Kudoz, but you ain't escaping this one.

Let me post again:

You have not mentioned any flipflop by the apostles, neither have you shown them accusing the holy spirit for any wrong understanding like you guys do. Let me show you how your Founder Russell saw flipflop. He says: "If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now;… But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. "New Light" never extinguishes older "light" but adds to it…" Zion's Watch Tower 1881 Feb pp.3,188

So your leader, whom you say God used above other church leaders says that the situation that your religion now found itself aka flipflop is an evidence of human followership. That for God, never can there be flipflop. I concur with your leader.

Do you agree with him?

Does the apostles have flipflop? Can you give examples.

MaxInDHouse:
Perhaps you have forgotten that the Holy Spirit was sent to continue the work Jesus did among imperfect humans:

"And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever" John 14:16

Jesus is the PERFECT helper guiding IMPERFECT humans to do God's will so the Holy Spirit has come to replace him therefore don't think their understanding became perfect after the Holy Spirit came:

"For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially" 1Corinthians 13:9

Do you want to tell me that Apostle Paul don't know what he was saying in the above or the Holy Spirit has not come to teach them?

it will only continue to guide them into all truth just as Jesus was CORRECTING them anytime they needed it. John 14:26-27

So what will be the EVIDENCE that God's Holy Spirit is working with them?
They will be able to continue doing God's will despite their imperfection and errors because God's Holy Spirit is there with them guiding them always! Act 1:8 compare to Proverbs 24:16

That's why i keep asking you to present the group that's performing better than Jehovah's Witnesses if truly you know the WORK of God's Holy Spirit!

You don't get the point, do you? If the holy spirit reveals a truth to you, it is truth, it can't change or be extinguished by another truth from the same spirit. Common bro. Can you listen to yourself? Like seriously? Flip-flop from the holy spirit? Stop the blasphemy my dear. Your understanding is human, don't accuse the holy spirit.

I have also stated that when the apostles misunderstood a point either by Jesus or what the bible says, they don't go one blaming the holy spirit for that, it was not spirit leading them. It was there own human understanding that didn't get the point. However, whenever the spirit lead them to a truth eg concerning uncircumcised gentiles, that truth never change. It is constant. That's what we call spirit lead truth. Your leader Russell agrees with that.

Yours is not. It is pure human understanding.

MaxInDHouse:
@ Sand2022
Hatred may blur the sense of judgement but it is wise to be open-minded in delicate cases like this! 1Thessalonians 5:21 compare to Act 17:11


What we found written in the Bible today were INSPIRED through God's Holy Spirit so it's not possible to find errors in what was inspired but regarding how the first century practiced Christianity YES they committed lots of blunders in understanding and applications {Act 15:1-5} but God's Holy Spirit was there to correct them that's why each time something goes wrong in the way they applied what they knew the Apostles comes together to pray over the matter so that God's Holy Spirit can direct them! Act 15:28-29

The GOVERNING BODY today weren't inspired like them so the same errors that happened in the first century due to imperfection cannot be avoided but one thing is sure:

God's people are doing His will today globally as One big and happy family of peace loving worshipers! Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3

You have not mentioned any flipflop by the apostles, neither have you shown them accusing the holy spirit for any wrong understanding like you guys do. Let me show you how your Founder Russell saw flipflop. He says:

"If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now;… But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. "New Light" never extinguishes older "light" but adds to it…" Zion's Watch Tower 1881 Feb pp.3,188

So your leader, whom you say God used above other church leaders says that the situation that your religion now found itself aka flipflop is an evidence of human followership. That for God, never can there be flipflop.

I concur with your leader. Unfortunately, you now call the so called God ordained leader a false teacher.

Emusan:
I mean KJV didn't used ONLY TEXTUS RECEPTUS but Vulgate where the comma appears.

The main text for KJV translation is Textus Receptus, Vulgate was secondary. Whether it was found in the vulgate available for KJV translators is open the to question since not all latin versions had the comma.

At what point does it added to the MAIN TEXT?

Before 5th century or after 5th century?

For latin it should be in the 5th century. But for Greek it's around 15th century.


[quote]The original was written in Greek no doubt about it but what we have today are COPIES of the original. So something can happen along the transcription.



Just as the Greek manuscripts we have today are COPIES of the original.



If we wonder about how! We can only ask questions.

So the question is, what if it was removed intentionally or by omission?

What if it wasn't in the original at all?

I think the majority of scholars, Trinitarians inclusive agree that the comma is spurious. Tomorrow more studies could reveal to the contrary. So let's stick to the best evidence for now.

Like I said earlier, an Umluats (double dot) was discovered in 1 John 5:7-8 in one of the oldest Greek manuscripts Codex Vaticanus those who discovered it acknowledged the dots but tried to explained of its non important away.

But the truth is the Umluats are there and the only thing missing with the Umluats is the comma.



I didn't.



In 1995 Philip B. Payne discovered “umlauts” (double dots) in the margins of various places in Codex Vaticanus. He and many scholars agree that these umlauts indicate lines where a textual variant was known to the scribe.

Interestingly, an umlaut appears next to the phrase “τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες” in Vaticanus. Payne briefly discusses and seemingly dismisses the significance of the umlaut in 1 John 5:7 (p. 112, footnote 34), but without a doubt the umlaut is there.

Check the attached below screenshot

There is umlaut there, Payne acknowledged it was there, but he stated that the Johannine comma was not found there. Where was the umlaut found? Close to the "the" in "there are three witness bearers". This umlaut was not added in the fourth century, but around 10th century by a scribe who saw difference between the Vatican 1209 and other manuscripts in Latin. There had been redaction to the Vatican manuscript over the years.

Janosky:

Please look for the meaning of divinity and educate yourself.

Divinity= a god, godlike.Screenshots evidence.
John 1:1 the word Jesus was a god.

Case closed.

You don't need to go far to understand what Russell meant. The word "divinity" in his article of faith has "" in capital.

Secondly, notice the "he" after that. The "h" is also in capital.

Janosky:
Is Charles Russell infallible?

John 17:7, what did Jesus have that he did not receive?

Jesus breathed holy spirit (given by his God) into the disciples, John 20:22.
Jesus Christ did not breath a person into the disciples.
Oga, are you learning something?

Your founder claimed that other christians were rejected because of false teaching, on what basis was Russell then chosen?

If he is fallible, why act and attack other doctrines as if he is not fallible? You see the situation it has left him. He has become a false teacher he accuses others of.

Jehovah God will continue to REFORM, Readjust his Servants, 2 Corinthians 13:9,11.
Jehovah readjusted prophet Samuel,1Sam3:20 & 1 Samuel 16:6.

Jehovah used Paul to readjust Corinthian brethrens, 1 Corinthians 15:12. 2 Cor13:9,11.

Jehovah is not reforming your doctrines, that's the mistake you guys make. You are searching to understand the bible like other scholars do. Remove Jehovah from that so that you don't blaspheme. Flip flops that exist in your doctrines is just the evidence that Jehovah is not involved at all. Using your intellect to want to understand a scriptural point isn't wrong, that's what your org do, don't accuse God and His spirit.

God doesn't reform and counter-reform someone.

Emusan:
But it wasn't originated from Erasmus.

Does it?

Not true, KJV used those manuscripts I mentioned earlier.

What wasn't originated from Erasmus, the Textus Receptus?

I don't understand your last statement. Do you mean that KJV used the earlier Text you mentioned? If so, I think you did mention Textus Receptus, unless I didn't understand you post. I quote;

"NT: Textus Receptus
Apocrypha: Greek Septuagint; Latin Vulgate."

It is not spurious!

People used the comma years long before 16th century.

And the comma was found in Old Latin 6th -7th century.

Yes, that's possible. I did say that the Comma appeared on the margin for years before it was added to the main text. It first appeared in a latin bible around 5th century.

The comma was in Latin, not Greek manuscripts. That's suspicious because the original was written in Greek. So, the latin was a translation. One would wonder why it is not found in all the old Greek manuscripts but a translation, latin.

An Umluats (double dot) discovered in Codex Vaticanus shows text was missing between 1 John 5:7-8 and the only textual variant here is nothing but the comma

If I understand you, you say that the comma didn't appear in Vatican 1209. Yes, it didn't appear there, and that is significant considering the importance attached to that manuscript. So that phrase must be spurious.

MaxInDHouse:
You need to go back and STUDY how the disciples fumbled countless times over and over again until they were able to master Jesus' teachings.

We are talking about a perfect teacher and his imperfect students so if a perfect teacher say anything his imperfect students may stumble many times over their teachers teachings.

That's exactly what happened to the Bible students in the 20th century!

Flip flop among the apostles? I mean moving from doctrine A to B and then returning to doctrine A? Where in the bible did you ever see such a thing among the apostles? Show me.

2. The few areas the apostles misunderstood Jesus words, they didn't say the holy spirit was gradually leading them to the truth. It was purely their imperfect human understanding. However, the JWs don't see it that way, they rather accuse the holy spirit for gradually taking them through one error to another. That's blasphemy.

And don't forget the point being made. What Russell believed about the holy spirit was not caused by Christendom, neither was Christendom the architect of Pyramid of Gizeh, Bathsarim, 1925, 1914, 1975 etc. Now you're saying Jesus led you to those errors. Don't accuse Christendom.

Thirdly, your leader Russell claimed that he did an independent search for truth aside from the creed of his time. He said he brings out a topic, then goes through all the scriptures to check what it says, then when they arrive at a conclusion consistent with the bible, they adopt it. Bros isn't that what you guys claim happened? So why are you saying that you're being led away from false teachings of Christendom again? The 6 bible students that met to research this matters, did any church send a representative to that group? Were they not the ones that reached their conclusions themselves? Guy wake up. You shouldn't accept any excuse they tell you. Think up.

Let me give you example of flip flop;

Russell believed that the Superior Authority was the Government (doctrine A). Christendom had arrived at that teaching long before then.

Later, during Rutherford's reign, he now said that the Superior Authorities were only Jehovah and Jesus. (Doctrine B)

Now your church teach that the Superior Authorities refer to the Governments (a return to Doctrine A)

If that is an evidence of holy spirit leading, sorry for you.

Emusan:
What do you mean by Greek master text?



No! KJV only translate Bible using OT: Masoretic Text

NT: Textus Receptus
Apocrypha: Greek Septuagint; Latin Vulgate

And the text was in oldest Latin manuscripts 6-7th century.

Erasmus was the one who introduced the comma in his edition of the Textus Receptus.

KJV was made from TR after the Comma had been added.

And this thread is about the text authenticity.

The text was alluded to by many early Christians, so something must have happened along the way.

It is spurous. The Comma initially occured in the marginal note. It was never part of the bible until Erasmus added it in the 16th century.

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus WAS CORRECTING them just as he did when he was here in the flesh and don't forget that most of the things he taught them face to face they missed that's why he had to repeat it over and over until they're able to grasp it.

So it's the same Jesus o {Hebrews 13:8} he will never ever condemn his willing students as long as they're ready to welcome correction!

Lol. He didn't even try answering the questions.

Leave Jesus out of this. He didn't give you your errors. Jesus obviously can't be behind flip-flops, can he? When you move from doctrine A to doctrine B, and latter returned back to doctrine A again, does that sound like what Jesus would do? Or Jesus told you to formulate a doctrine to worship pyramid of Giza? Be careful bros.

MaxInDHouse:
Stop deceiving yourself!

If there is little poison inside a meal you won't eat it so if you don't accept our teachings there's no need siding with part of it condemn it all as Satanic.

That's what we do to all the teachings from any other religion! Matthew 16:6, 12

I can't be haughty like you then. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for ungodly doctrines, but he still obeyed the correct ones like doing the Passover, attending synagogue worship, he even did bible reading inside the synagogue even more. So, your overrighteousness won't let you guys breath. I don't follow your example. I follow Jesus.

MaxInDHouse:
So do you accept our publication?

I have no problem with reading it. In as much as there is substance from God's word. However, when there is lies, I reject that part. I don't have this rotten view you guys have of others, I detest that. You guys should stop such haughtiness for God sake. And it's not as if you guys are Mr know all. Your doctrines are litered with errors, yet I don't know where this undue pride emanates from. And God has not even appeared to you guys to say you have been chosen, so why all this pride? There are thousands of scholars out there doing well in scriptural exposition, your church benefits from their labour as well. Many churches can prove that God had at least spoken to them, you don't have such evidence, yet pride pride pride. You got to stop.

Even with all these, I value you as an individual in as much as you have faith in Christ. And I read whatever is true scripturally, either from you or others. But at times I just get pissed off when you guys spew nonsense about other Christians who also are running the same race. And I see no scriptural evidence for all these hatred.

MaxInDHouse:
Charles and his colleagues were making research regarding what is wrong with Christendom churches so everything they believe back then is exactly what they all got from Christendom churches until Jesus returned in the year 1914 to correct them and gradually God's people were totally freed from all the LIES of Christendom Churches! John 8:32

Today God's organization has grown past all the nonsense and Ingredients they got from Christendom churches that's why the true God began calling us by another group name:
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES! Isaiah 65:15

The Finished Mystery was published way after 1914. So Jesus supposedly abandoned Christendom as you say, and appointed someone with falsehood in his basket?

If as at the time, they had Christendom lies as you say, on what basis were they then chosen as the true religion? Or are they true falsehood religion? Ok give us a date when all false religious teachings were all clear out.

2. When Russell taught his followers to revere pyramid of Giza in Egypt, was that also a teaching gotten from Christendom? When they arrived at the end of the world in 1914, and 1925 was that also a false teaching gotten from Christendom that Jesus wants to purge out? When Russell was called the Faithful and Discreet slave, was that also gotten from Christendom? Lest I forgot, which Christendom church ever taught that Holy Spirit manifested in the personality of The Father and the Son? Were they not rather teaching God the Holy Spirit?

I stumbled unto this page in the Finished Mystery of Jehovah's Witnesses that spoke of what Russell believed. The book says:

"... We affirm that the Word (Logos) was made flesh—became the Babe of Bethlehem—thus becoming the Man Jesus, ‘holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.’ As we affirm the humanity of Jesus, we equally affirm the Divinity of Christ—‘God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name above every name.’ (Heb. 7:26; Phil. 2:9.)

“We acknowledge that the personality of the Holy Spirit is the Father and the Son; that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both, and is manifested in all who receive the begetting of the Holy Spirit and thereby become sons of God. (John 1:12; 1 Pet. 1:3.)"

Finished Mystery page 71 and 72.

We can notice that even the holy spirit was not believed to be active force, but manifested in the Father and Son.

Yet God supposedly used him for believing what JWs today will call falsehood. No wonder they no longer print such book and is not even in their library.

MaxInDHouse:
Guy what happened to JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES in ancient times were written in the scriptures as examples examples for us not RULES!
So if you know how it's applied practically just follow those doing so today i am telling you how JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES are practically applying the PRINCIPLE today!

My interest is not about whatever you chose to believe as a religion. It's your business. My interest is that it's not scriptural. That's all.

MaxInDHouse:
So are you one of Jehovah's Witnesses?

I am telling you the difference between laws and principles but you're here trying to change the subject thinking it's about OBEDIENCE.

Well let me tell you now that JWs imprisoned for their faith stood for what they knew is best for all while other witnesses would run away without having to face such test of faith those that ran away won't be disfellowshiped o!

I don't even need your answer on this anymore cos I doubt if you're a witness. The publications of JWs has proved that my point is legit.

If you don't accept the bible, and don't accept the publication of your claimed religion, your biz.

Emusan:
1 John 5:7 in the KJV contains these words called the Johannine Comma (also known as the Comma Johanneum or the Heavenly Witnesses). 

Why this verse was not found in some translations today:

Was it fraudulent inserted?

OR

Was omitted from Ancient Greek?

It was added to the Greek master text by Erasmus. That's how it entered the KJV.

However, it's origin seem to date back to the 4th century in some latin manuscripts till it found its way to the Latin Vulgate. It seem to be first noted in the margin before it entered the main bible text.

MaxInDHouse:
OK i've not said anything shey?

Well principles doesn't require obedience it's a way of life!

Your publications says:

As children get older, real effort is required to help them to appreciate that obedience to the lofty principles of the Scriptures leads to the very best way of life."

Another article says:

"In the same land, two of Jehovah’s Witnesses were imprisoned because of their strict obedience to Bible principles."

I don't think you're a Jehovah's witness.

MaxInDHouse:
You don't understand what the word "PUNISH" means!

We are talking about PRINCIPLES and someone who is holding a high position is relieved because he is not promoting the PRINCIPLE is that what you call PUNISHMENT?

Perhaps you need this illustration:

When we were toddlers our parents do force most of us to birth and brush our teeth before food they never wrote it in any book as laws but they religiously do this as if our life depends on it but today that we are grown ups each person is practicing all these things not because our parents told us to do so but we now know why it's necessary.

Now imagine a grown up who is to represent a company manufacturing toothpaste but whose child doesn't even brush his or her mouth, do you think such a person still fit in as a representative of that company?
Now if he is relieved for others whose children are doing well in this regard to occupy the position do you call that a punishment?

So you no longer talk scripture but company? I didn't say it is uncompanied, I said it is unscriptural. You gave Ezra as example, I pointed to you how it was handled during his time, and other examples. When will you start accepting the scriptures and leave human thinking? So you should go and tell God that He didn't handle the issue of Eliashib, Solomon, David and the priests the best way? God made a mistake, He didn't understand how a company should run right? Or that God is not a good Father who should know how to punish His children? You have to attack scriptural truth just to support your religion?

MaxInDHouse:
Ọmọ PRINCIPLE is not by WRITTEN CODES rather it's what we fully understood how it will benefit us so each person is fully convinced in his heart! Jeremiah 31:33

You've not said anything. Are principles not to be obeyed?

MaxInDHouse:
My friend if you're not one of Jehovah's Witnesses we don't count you as a Christian.

Do you now understand?

Even if that were so, punishing the person is also unscriptural. I gave my scriptural support for that.

Many in the body of Christ have had more love for church leaders than they have to Christ and his Father. This leaders seem to manipulate their followers with hell fire or other forms of punishment.

In control groups like Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, etc, this could come in the form of shunning, and some manipulative statements meant to have the adherents think that disobeying them will be equal to disobeying God.

Jonathan's example will help us to be determined to hold on to our love of God more than love for men.

Born in a royal home, Jonathan was the heir apparent to Israel's throne. In many countries, people kill to make it to leadership. To be ruler of your land is a dream only few attain. However, Jonathan is on his way to such privilege.

However, a young boy seem to God's choice, not Jonathan nor his father. That could have sounded some how, I mean Jonathan wasn't like his father. if his father is rejected, why him? Besides Jonathan was faithful to God and even loved by the people (1sam 14:45).

Being a godly man, Jonathan accepted his fate, and chose to support God's choice. This was dangerous. His father was still the king and commander in chief of the armed forces. He could order his execution. Was Jonathan afraid of that? No.

During what we will call today a religious family session, Jonathan's live was almost taken. 1sam 20:32,33 reports:

And Jonathan answered Saul his father, and said unto him, Wherefore should he be put to death? what hath he done? 33 And Saul cast his spear at him to smite him; whereby Jonathan knew that is was determined of his father to put David to death."

Jonathan could have died that day. Out of fear of death, did he stop supporting God's choice?

Not at all, Jonathan even went and told David his father's intentions which was hidden from Jonathan before then. Jonathan truly loved God even when under severe persecution from someone who should be defending God's course.

Many today are afraid to take a stand against church leaders who choose to mislead and demand obedience for their ungodly demands. Many are afraid of that spear being hurled at them. Are you one of them?

Some churches have spear of discipline, spare of shunning etc in other to cage their followers into obedience. What is shocking is that these leaders have jumped to few scriptures to support their control ideology.

Like Jonathan, don't feel that you have to obey such leaders. Hold on to the bible truth you see, be open minded when being shown facts from bible and follow it even if it is against your leaders teachings. Do not be afraid of the spear.

Some make it sound awkward and even dangerous to follow a scriptural course. They teach that if you must please God, you have to obey all they tell you. But that's not true. God has leaders He uses, but these leaders do sometimes go beyond scripture, you re not expected to follow those their unscriptural practices. No.

This doesn't mean total disobedience however. If God uses that leader, obey the direction that is consistent with the scriptures, but don't obey ones that are not.

Pastor Kumuyi set a good example like Jonathan. He didn't go along with the secessionist teaching of his former faith. He was not afraid of the spear, God blessed his zeal for truth.

Some leaders would teach their followers to wait till they change their unscriptural beliefs, and they make it seem as if that such wait is like waiting for God to act to correct the erroneous doctrine. That is manipulation at its best. Jonathan didn't say "oh let me just support my father, and wait on the Lord to correct matters!", Neither did Jesus wait before he disobeyed the Pharisees and Sadducees doctrines. If a teaching is against the scriptures, it has to be disobeyed until the leaders chose to change. You can't continue in sin alongside the leader and say you're waiting on the Lord. But if it's a minor issue, you can overlook it.

Yes, like Jonathan we don't have to be afraid of the spear!

MaxInDHouse:
All those are PRINCIPLES not LAWS!

So that's the answer to this question?

I am just waiting for your prove on how your organization arrived at convention, family worship, helpers to GB etc before the law covenant. Share that publication

Well, if you see all those as principles found in the Old Covenant, then you should accept the principle at Num 12:6. Shekina!

MaxInDHouse:
You don't know what you're saying!

Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 2Corinthians 6:14

Can you PRACTICALLY APPLY this scripture when your own child taught by you {Deuteronomy 6:6-7} now choose to marry outside the faith?

Are you an exemplary member of the house of faith if you give your consent to such unholy union?

Go and read what Ezra did regarding people whose children married outside God's chosen people!

While I respect your unscriptural views, marrying someone who is also a christian is not another faith. That is one.

Even if that were another faith eg If a christian marries someone in Hinduism, Islam etc, does that one need to be relieved of his duties?

Let's start with Ezra's time.

Ezra chapter 9 and 10, has the story of intermarriage and Ezra's prayer for confession. So marrying out of faith is not a good thing at all, but how are those persons handled?

- Ezra prayer for confession

- The pagan wives were sent packing, not the pagan husband's anyway.

Who were those who got involved in this?
The bible says:

Ezra 9
2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and for their sons. Now they, the holy offspring, have become mingled with the peoples of the lands. The princes and the deputy rulers have been the foremost offenders in this unfaithfulness.”

The Princes and the Deputy Rulers were culprits. However, none of those deputy rulers were removed from their office or stoned.

Nehemiah also complained about such error in his time, but see what happened.

Neh 13
One of the sons of Joiʹa·da the son of E·liʹa·shib the high priest had become a son-in-law of San·balʹlat the Horʹo·nite. So I drove him away from me. 29 Do remember them, O my God, because they have defiled the priesthood and the covenant of the priesthood and the Levites. 30 And I purified them from every foreign defilement, and I assigned duties to the priests and to the Levites, each to his own service, 31 and arranged for the supply of the wood at appointed times and for the first ripe fruits. Do remember me favorably, O my God."

This time, the priesthood had such union, even Eliashib, the high priest. But Eliashib was not removed as a high priest for this.

What did Nehemiah do? Verse 30 says he purified them, and allowed them occupy their PRIVILEGES.

2. Solomon married many foreign wives, but he retained his kingship. Even David had a foreign wife but was not removed by God. In fact, one of the wives that Solomon married was done during David's reign, so David could have been the one who got that wife for his son according to the custom of the time, or he had to consent to that marriage. Yet God didn't remove David from office.

So my friend, when I say targeting ones office for just marrying out of JWs is unscriptural, it really is. That is JWs policy, don't drag scripture into this. Scriptural example doesn't support that at all. I am not saying marrying from Islam, Hinduism etc which is another faith is good, no. It's wrong, but you don't have to punish people for that.

21Ogodol:
A family friend who’s a Jehovah’s Witness, said Jehovah’s Witness parents are allowed to perform rites for their children even thou they choose to marry a non witness, that it’s not against the law of the organization and any man who choose not to sit(be it an Elder or a member) is acting so based on his personal belief and not under Jehovah’s Witness.

I have seen cases of daughters getting married and their fathers not attending their traditional marriage or even accepting to collect dowery because she dint marry a witness and he cannot partake in her sin.


One girl said the Dad asked her spouse to first become a witness and get baptized before he can accept her as a son-inlaw and many more like that …

Now this our family friend who is saying it’s not against the law of Jehovah’s Witness is getting me confused and leaving me with so many questions 🧐🧐

If it’s not a against them, then how come so many fathers ignore or even disowned their daughters for taking this step?

How come they all choose to be wicked even thou their organization accepts such?

And those fathers that sits for their daughters who marry non witness, do they get summoned or disfellowshipped?

I need answers pls … someone help me out

Sitting with you daughter or son or even giving your blessings is seen as personal decision among JWs. But when JWs say personal decision, they don't mean that you will go unpunished. No.

If you hold any privileged position in the organization either, Auxiliary pioneer, Regular Pioneer, elder, ministerial servants etc, you will automatically loose those privileges if you ever give consent either directly or indirectly.

If you give consent and you don't hold those privileges, you might not attain that privilege in the near future. They would no longer consider you exemplary in the church. So, while they term it personal decision, it is not such intoto. You do face some discipline for such consent. Giving discipline on this is purely unscriptural. But they have their right to their beliefs.

The Organization is wrong in doing this, but that's there understanding anyway. All of us have area we don't do well.