₦airaland Forum

Bigbang2013:
if u say e cursed the fig tree do u know it was because jesus told his disciples that were hungry that if they get to the tree they will eat but on getting dere jesus saw nothing then he cursed it if he was a divine God should e not av know d tree would av no fruit wen e was coming

As per the highlighted, Jesus NEVER said that!!!!!

Bigbang2013:
if jesus has the same will has God why did he prayed to God on the cross he even went to an extent of say "father ,father why have though forsaken me" do u know the gravity of that word....

John 1:18 was halted briefly resulting in the outcry on the cross. Isaiah 59:2 tells us iniquity separates us from God and that is what happened to He Who bore our guilt. That was the real cause of the sorrow and agony at Gethsemane, not the death on the cross per se.

I wonder why Paul will refer to Temple prostitutes when the people he wrote to had no biz with shrines/temples besides, it is easy to spot the manipulation of the 1 corinth 6:11 ref using two hyphens that were not there but their inclusion alters the meaning! If read in the light of the context, it renders Paul's writing that passage superfluous. If we are washed, it means if we go into those things, we will be defiled!
Moreover, the commands in leviticus are divisible thus: some when violated are described as abominable/detestable while others do not have this qualifier. Christ did not come to make God accept/delight in abominable acts! Rather, He came to deliver us from them. Hence if we persist therein, judgement remains sure!

Very true. This accentuates that spoken by Paul through the Spirit concerning people becoming lovers of pleasures and glorying in their shame. Behind the gay movement is pleasure-madness even when the purpose of the act could never be achieved from their abomination!!!!

Demmzy15:
That's not an insinuation but a fact, remember that Isaac was blind and therefore Jacob stole(permit me to use this word) the blessings meant for Esau.

It was already prophesied before they were born. Although Jacob's action was not what God meant. (I know this because same thing played out with Joseph's two sons: the younger was chosen and blessed even when everything was arranged to favour the elder). Hence it will be wrong to remotely imply that God entered into covenant with Abraham with his seed when God clearly it was to be his seed after him (and the seed concerned was mentioned being the one God had in mind in Genesis 15)

Demmzy15:
Ishmael was a seed after him, a son can't at the same level with his father so he's ultimately after his father, couple with Isaac!

Interesting!!! Here you add words based on insinuations to what God had already spoken and clarified expressedly?! Why would Isaac transfer the blessing to Jacob only when he was about to die if they were both in it already? 'After' there means death and not in union one being greater than the other!

Demmzy15:
We need to understand this story together and I'll explain step by step!

God speaks about his covenant

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Genesis 17:10

This shows the covenant is about 'circumcision'.

No! A covenant is an agreement between two parties that require obligations from both! There was more to the covenant than the token:circumcision! Circumcision was to be a token of that covenant:

Genesis 17:11
11 And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a token or sign of the covenant (the promise or pledge) between [size=13pt]Me and you[/size].

God and Abraham were the Parties to the covenant; the covenant was to be established with his seed afterwards!!!

Genesis 17:7-8 shows the body of the covenant which God said He will establish with Isaac (genesis 17:21)
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Then when we go further, God explains more

But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. Genesis 17:21

That was to take place after Abraham, not with Abraham. Hence God never spoke to Isaac as regards covenant till after Abraham's death!

Going Further

[i]And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. Genesis 17:23

COMMENT

I must direct your attention to verse 10 above, where God says "this is my covenant ... every man child among you shall be circumcised". In verse 23 we learn that Ishmael, who was 13 years old at that time (Yeeiii!!!) was immediately circumcised. Therefore, the Bible says -- in plain Hebrew -- that God has a covenant with Ishmael.

Not when God said the covenant will take effect with the seed AFTER, and not WITH Abraham and He specified that seed. God is not a confusionist to say one thing and mean another!

Isaac was not yet born!

Isaac was the promised seed mentioned in Genesis 15:4 when neither of the two had been born!

But wait a minute. A complication enters into the picture in verse 21. Here, God says "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac".

We can't be sure if indeed this is what the Bible says except the source is revisited. Let's take a tour to the Hebrew world, a sister language to Arabic.

In times like this, we'd safely stay with Hebrew!

Genesis 17:21
The former translation says that there is a covenant -- perhaps even of land! -- with Ishmael, AND there is also such a covenant with Isaac.
The latter translation says that there is a covenant -- of some poorly-defined sort -- with Ishmael, BUT the "real" covenant -- especially that part involving the land -- is exclusively with Isaac!

Even if the word of God is clear and unambiguous, we can't still trust the translators. Please I want you to research on this also!

If the seed promised in Genesis 15 when neither Ishmael nor Isaac was born was to have descendants who will be in captivity and will afterwards be delivered; there is nothing to research! The truth stares us in the face!

If I start listing the contradictions, no one would gerrout from here. Dem too plenty wallahi!

Alright state just a few.

Ibrahim's Supplication to Allah when He brought Isma`il to Makkah
Allah mentions here, while bringing forth more evidences against Arab polytheists, that the Sacred House in Makkah was established on the worship of Allah alone, without partners. He also states that Ibrahim, who established the city, has disowned those who worship others besides Allah, and that he begged Allah to make Makkah peaceful and secure, Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Kindly clarify, were there Arabs at the time of Abraham?

Demmzy15:
Check my last reply for explanations, the covenant was fulfilled with Ishmael when Isaac was not born and when Isaac was born it was also fulfilled with him. But Isaac indeed had more favour which indeed showed that his descendants had more Prophets than Ishmael!

Neither Ishmael nor Isaac could fulfil the covenant while Abraham is alive!!! That is why God said to Abraham in Genesis 17 that he will establish His covenant with Abraham and his seed AFTER him not with him. ANd GOD specified that seed with whom He will establish the covenant after Abraham( not with Abraham!.)

My bro said he'll reply you later, so sit tight!

No problem!

johnydon22:
Morality as a human concept are actions that "Decreases individual human suffering and/or betters societal well being, freedom, equality, survival and justice. . . . . It is a concept born out of human perception as a result of human intellect,empathy and compassion. . . what we call conscience is just a product of human intellect

Are you implying then that it's up to each man to develop his own set of moral actions? Afterall we all have an intellect.

johnydon22:
Need i remind you that isreali now is mainly a judaic country. .

75% of modern day isrealis practise Judaism. in fact only 2% practise Orthodox Christianity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel

And most Judaic people regard Jesus as another case out of the 21 cases of messiah claims they have witness through out history, so they don't buy you belief of jesus relieving you of the law.
so unlike you, they have no belief in jesus or even have the new testament in their scriptures. . . they pretty much still believe they are under the law. . . so the reason why they don't employ these laws now is because they don't want to enter the 21st century list of terrorist groups just like not every muslim heeds to the barbaric charges in the koran

Yes, in fact this buttresses my point that they are in expectation of the Messiah to restore all things and so for now, my guess is that they perceive that the law can only be fully enforced after all things have been restored

. Judaism as we know it consists of the OT watered down by many traditions introduced by the elders and the Pharisees/Rabbis: these additions was what blinded them to the Messiah's first coming
Besides, Jesus and His apostles (author of the Epistles) were all Jews! The rejection by a percentage of Israel and their current state etc was clearly analysed by one of them (a Jew) in the Epistles.

For a battle hardened nation that appears proud of their heritage, I dont think their restraint is as a result of fear of being called terrorists!

johnydon22:
This is the part i start questioning if religious belief rids people of their sense of humanity . .

tell me how a girl having sex before marriage is more barbaric than stoning her to death. .

tell me how people having sex with themselves more barbaric than killing them.

tell me how someone choosing to worship another god as he wants just as you choose to worship yours more barbaric than killing the person. . . Unless your definition of barbarism is not the same that we see in the dictionary.

Following this your analogy, we can then conclude that the 9 people who are sentenced to death in Kano deserves what they got because their sin (Just talking) is more barbaric than the law that condemns them to death for just talking

I think dear sir, am done obliging such discussion where belief clouds human sense of judgement

No problem! Once again, understand the fact that this issues were not in barely legible fine print or a strange language when they committed themselves; it was read aloud in their hearing, in their mother tongue and they willingly agreed!

Now if certain among them acts contrary, he /she would be doing so, not ignorantly but defiantly.

Question for thought: By what standard is morality to be gauged? Individual conscience? (the world becomes literal hell!) or what?( said you were done hence you dont need to answer but since you emphasize morals in your reply, you will do well to vouchsafe us a response)

dalaman:
Same way the muslim terrorist are also committed to their own revelations from their God after been told the details of what they are to consent to. The number of times of execution is unknown. The law was given and written about according to the story we have but the number of times it was executed was not written down doesn't ,mean it wasn't executed many time. But if you are talking about the present day Israelis then my answer is they can't because they will be labelled as terrorist.

Alright. The present day Israelites and present day Islamic fundamentalists can be used as a sample for that which history does not reveal. The last people that will give a hoot on being called terrorists are the Israelites; their stance at present is not as a result of fear of being labelled terrorist;there is another reason.

Besides, just as it happened in the 400 years inter-testament period, the expectation of modern day Israel is the coming of the Messiah and restoration of all things. For now, it's a battle to survive while the dispensation lasts. Those who recognise the Messiah know that we are no longer under the OT and that the outlook of the NT is different

johnydon22:
exactly the point, same way muslims have read the quran and agreed to it. . . That they agreed to abide by such laws still doesn't make the law less barbaric and still doesn't add any moral weight to those laws

@bolded because they know it is wrong now and the world would tag them a terrorist group if they do

If the law is barbaric, is the act being condemned not even more barbaric? An Israelite wants to go after an idol that.among other things, commands you to burn your kids in sacrifice, engage in multiple orgies openly as a way of seeking for fertility of the land etc Why? a law that prescribes a tap-in-the-wrist punishment for such must be an encouragement in disguise!

Besides, just as it happened in the 400 years inter-testament period, the expectation of modern day Israel is the coming of the Messiah and restoration of all things. For now, it's a battle to survive while the dispensation lasts. Those who recognise the Messiah know that we are no longer under the OT and that the outlook of the NT is different

dalaman:
Then this supports the case that Jonny made. The bible is no different from the Koran if you are justifying such as moral principles to abide by.

Moral principles to abide by which was read openly to the same people and they gave their word for implicit obedience?! Why? how do you see a commitment? Remember that the people in question were told the details of what they were about to consent to. Besides, how many times do we find the Israelites executing this? And, do they go about today like the terrorists do?

dalaman:
"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

"Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death". (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

These quotes has nothing to do with outsiders/foreigners being killed but Israelites who consciously, of their own decision entered into a covenant.
I commenced my first post by pointing out the need to abide by known rules in the community you choose to settle in. Besides, these people were not coerced, they personally made their commitment to be obedient after they heard the terms read to them:

Exodus 24:7
Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has said we will do, and be obedient.”

johnydon22:
I think i made it clear that on my first paragraph i was referring to my discussion with malvisguy

and the second

i was addressing your last paragraph in bolded. . .Maybe you chose not to discern when a post is addressing two independent analogies

Sorry for that.

johnydon22:
Our discussion was whether the bible god also commanded people to fight others just like the quranic god did [b]not about reason for fighting them not even ready to dabble into that.

So with this your post you have just confirmed to malvisguy who was disputing the fact that the bible god also charged a people(isreal) to fight some other


@bolded; Same way the biblical isreal think they are right fighting other people that worships other god(s) and not theirs at the command of their own isreal god, is exactly the same way muslims see theirs, so there is no difference in the two examples.
Both violates people's right to practise any religion they want, am sure you know in this 21st century if isreali tries same thing now,they would be branded religious terrorist group and will not be treated any differently with ISIS and boko haram [/b]

The two highlighted contradict. The one said you are not interested in reasons while the other gives a perceived reason. But in no where were the Israelites asked to kill those who do not practise their religion.If you think contrary, kindly give refs that state such expressedly.

What I find is God's justice coming through other nations, on the Amalekites, Babylonians( by the way, Persia and Medes, not Israel destroyed Babylon), Israelites, Assyrians etc, when any went into abomination and remained recalcitrant therein.

Job,Enoch, Noah etc were not Israelites and did not have the Law, but lived in reverence of God to the degree in which He revealed Himself to them. After the flood, there must have been such in all these other non-Semitic
nations and would God command them to be killed simply because they were not Jews?

crusadistic:
bla bla blah so you shouldn't compare the so called biblical 'justice' with Allah's,He never ordered any genocides or rapes.

Genocides, Rapes? I admonish you to read the post again. It was two-sided; not one party remains a favourite even if it does the same things. Meanwhile the first paragraph shows the need to abide by the adopted laws of your community. No need to fight!

johnydon22:
I just hope you know the bible god is just as guilty as the quran god on this

To start with, the action is not justifiable. However, the unfortunate ones belong to the same society that nearly attacked other religions that kicked when they adopted the Shar'ia code. We ,therefore, should learn to abide by the rules of the community where we find ourselves.

Digression: God commanded the Israelites to destroy some nations guilty of vile abominations of the deepest dye. God also allowed other nations (Babylon, Assyria etc) to waste Israel exceedingly when Israel went into the same abominations. Both group had a time of benefit, an injury period with warnings but at the appropriate time judgement was executed. This is His style of Justice and somehow, it's better than if He had to do it Himself: Ante-deluvian world,Sodom and Pompeii can explain better.

Besides, the commands given then were not in the same class as moral obligations and faith; meaning they were not meant to be passed down.(this has a spiritual perspective now).

Conversely, the battles perpetrated by some radical Muslims (though some disclaim them) appears to suggest that they will never go wrong i.e. It presents a perspective and style absolutely foreign to that we find in the Bible.

malvisguy212:
yes ishmael got is shere because he was the first born and he was from Abraham seed;
Genesis 22:17
I will surely bless you and make your
descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. possession of the cities of their enemies,

This blessing was NOT talking about the prophetic race, it was talking about how God will bless Abraham seed and MULTIPLY it. And because of this ishmael is made a GREAT NATION because he was from Abraham;

Genesis 17:20
And as for Ishmael, I HAVE HEARD YOU: I will surely bless him; I will make him
fruitful and will greatly increase his
numbers. He will be the father of twelve
rulers, and I will make him into a great
nation.

The first statement from this verse say "I have heard you" meaning Abraham had to intercede for ishmael for his blessing, and God heard Abraham and bless ishmael.

But for Abraham, God gave him a special blessing. Here is it:

Genesis 17:1
The Sign of the Covenant
17 When Abram was ninety-nine years
old, the Lord appeared to Abram and
said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk
before Me and be blameless. 2 And I
will make MY COVENANT BEWEEN ME AND YOU , and will multiply you exceedingly.”

And this same covenant was established in Isaac:
And I will bless her, and give you a son
also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she
shall be a mother of nations; kings of
people shall be of her.
- Gen. 17:15-16
The covenant promises would come
through Abraham's wife (who had not yet produced a child at age 90).
Her name was to be changed to Sarah
(noblewoman) to reflect this honour.
Gen. 17:19,
But my covenant will I establish with
Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto you at this set time in the next year.

God promised a son, to be called Isaac,
exactly one year later, and through him
would the promises go. God promises that he would bless Abraham's seed as the stars of heaven and as the sand on the sea shore.
That in blessing I will bless you, and in
multiplying I will multiply your seed as
the stars of the heaven, and as the sand
which is upon the sea shore;

This blessing was established in Isaac and not ishmael.

Exactly! Thanks a lot.

omortoyosi01:
well.. I believe gospel simply means good news and if we go tru d new testament very well.. We'll see how the apostles didn't take it with levity of hand and they didn't turn it to money making venture either.
So I'm wondering why people are twisting everything this days now

Okay. But I meant what exactly are the contents of the Gospel? Or how would you summarise the news in the Goodnews?

lopjohnny:
some Church doctrine is you must fast and pray after which one will dream of his or her spouse... while others don't.... the question is that is it necessary for one to be expecting dream before he or she marries OR by the virtual of beauty, handsomeness, wealth, liking or whatever before getting married

To start with, a doctrine is not the same as tradition. A number of pentecostal churches encourage you to seek God's guidance on life's decisions one of which is who to marry. It is expected that you already know how God speaks to you and when He does, you will need to be sensitive for a confirmation (for those who may not be used to hearing from God). Dreams is like a last resort according to Job 33:14,15 and will need more confirmations because dreams also come fro various sources.

Rilwayne001:
The matter hasn't been resolved; I'm not just ready for your games.

To you (of course I knew that while I typed). No problem though.

Demmzy15:
When you read that verse from the beginning, it talks about a future occurrence which be done to the the Assyrians. God was angry with the Assyria King because of their inclination to idols and this was like an encouragement to them.

Rather, it was a prophecy that was fulfilled in Isaiah's day. If you read the whole chapter, Assyria was to be used by God in executing judgement against a hypocritical nation ( Israel vs 6) but his own judgement was to follow too because he was also guilty of pride.
In any case, future or immediate, the prophecy does not sound like Israel was an extreme minority like you posited.

Covenant was established with Ishmael and later with Isaac when he was born!

As long as Abraham was alive, God's covenant was with him. He was the one that God called in Genesis 12. The establishment God spoke of was to take force after Abraham's death not while he was alive! That is why it was said thus Genesis 17:7
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

And to avoid confusion,the seed was specified in vs 19-21

Bro Rilwayne001 showed you one deliberate contradiction. That's what I was referring to.

The matter has been resolved using normal principles that are still applicable today.

Demmzy15:
Not my opinion, but the Bible supports that.

And it is clearly stated when it is to be applied. definitely not in this case!

We can't use this as examples because the case of Ishmael and Isaac is exclusive. God placed emphasis on both of them, blessing them. From covenant to sacrifice, they were involved!

This, for the umpteenth time, contradicts God's clear statement in Genesis 17:21
But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
This was one of the rationale behind Abraham's insistence that Isaac's wife be sought for from among his relatives but that Isaac was not to go back himself.

Of course they would have probably tampered with it, picking just 73 from over 20,000. Alterations would have probably been before them, because the Bible itself acknowledges that fact in Jeremiah8:8

Against the backdrop of history, kindly specify those parts tampered with. Besides, the time of Jeremiah came many centuries before Mohammed then I wonder how people of that time will jealous the Arabs! Moreover after the judgements prophesied by Jeremiah came and went, the Torah was read and taught by faithful people like Ezra and Nehemiah (you may consider the books as an aid to discover those 'errors'). And the prophets, were they also tampered with? You mentioned some little blessings for Ishmael 'turned over' by Israel; why would those with greater blessings envy those with comparatively little ones?

When you try and change works you do it with limitation, do you honestly think they'll write a different book just to suite themselves?! Just to favour their progeny, they turned everything upside-down. No one is saying the Bible is totally false, but most of it is corrupted. Infact we don't know some authors, they unknown.

Kindly specify such parts. Besides, when you say the Bible is corrupted, I would like to ask, in what respect? Corrupted with a view to
achieving what goal? How has that goal being achieved by the'corrupted Bible'? How come the 'corrupted' parts were fulfilled or are being fulfilled?

"My Lord! Make safe this territory, and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols. My Lord! Lo! [b] They have led many of people astray. But whoever[b] follows me,[/b] he verily is of me. And whoever disobeys me, still You are Forgiving, Merciful. Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near to Your Holy House, our Lord! That they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide You them, with fruits in order that they may be thankful. Our Lord! Lo! You know that which we hide and that which we proclaim. Nothing in the earth or in the heaven is hidden from God. Praise be to God Who has given me, in my old age, Ishmael and Isaac! Lo! My Lord is indeed the Hearer of prayer. My Lord! Make me establish regular prayer, and some of my posterity (also), our Lord! And accept my prayer. Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents and believers on the Day when the account is cast."[/b] (Quran 14:35-41)

"And when we assigned to Abraham the place of the House: ‘Do not associate with Me anything, and purify My House for those who circumambulate it, who stand in prayer, and who bow, and prostrate themselves (all in prayer).’ And proclaim the Pilgrimage (Hajj) among people, and they shall come to you on foot, and on every lean camel. They shall come to you from every deep and distant mountain highways." (Quran 22:26)

"And when We made the House (the Kaaba) a resort for mankind and sanctuary, (saying): Take as your place of worship the place where Abraham stood (to pray). And We took a covenant with Abraham and Ishmael that they should purify My House (the Kaaba) for those who compass it round, devote themselves (to worship) in it, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer)." (Quran 2:125)

The station in which Abraham stood to build the Kaaba is know as 'Maqam Ibrahim' which is still visible in Saudi Arabia!

Who said the above statements?
And who was he referring to when he said they(highlighted)

omortoyosi01:
It was a cold sunday morning, woke up very late and i was already running late for service.
''abeg who dey dere'' i called out to the element of time wastage factor bathing in the only one bathroom we all manage in our face me i slap you apartment...''nah me oo oga willy'' the woman in the bathroom yelled out. I was dumbfounded, cos the woman taking her bath was very notorious for staying in the bathroom close to an hour or two depending on the type of occasion she's going to.
I had wanted to settle for the ''boju bose'' style of bathing when i heard the old bathroom door opening, i ran into the bathroom like i'm been chased, took a quick bath, stayed not more than a minute and ran out. ''bros nah bath yu take so?? people outside were mocking me, i ignored them and ran inside my room...''una no go make me loose my blessings for church today i tot''.
I prepared, ate some food cos i hate going to church on an empty stomach, drank some water instead of the normal captain jack i normally drink before going to church when i was still a sinner and ran off to the church [ had my church just a stone throw to my house so i shouldn't be going late to avoid being tagged an unserious fellow ].
When i got to the church the sunday school was already going on which we normally call search the scriptures in our church, and the topic was ''THE UNIVERSAL GOSPEL'' there our teacher thought us how universal our gospel is, how the same gospel been taught in our church is the same been thought in another church in borno, nassarawa, kontagora, america, limpopo, india and every part of the world. I didn't agree with this teaching so i concluded that i'll ask questions about it when it is time to do so. Eventually the time came and i found myself bombarding our leader with different questions like how come our gospel is universal and gays are accepted in some churches in england and they ain't accepted in ours, how come women do not always have to cover up there heads in some churches and they must always cover up in ours, how come trousers and mini skirts are allowed in some churches even here in Nigeria and ain't allowed in ours. Anointing oils, holy waters, praying on mountains, dancing to the alter to drop tithes and offerings and all sorts are not allowed in some churches and are not accepted in others, why are some pastors/believers running after money when the bible clearly says we should not run after the things of the world or why are some running after politics and politicians when the bible clearly says we should not be unequally yoked with unbelievers and the most painful thing is that the pastors/believers of these churches back up there acts with passages from the bible even when fvcking another man's wife #smh
Well i can't really blame them cos in a bid to simplify the bible, the sweetness have been lost, imagine a verse in the kjv been interpreted as ''virgin'' and another bible version interpreting it as a ''young woman''
Our pastor later explained to me that they are all church traditions and that people are only twisting the bible cos of their pockets and to suit the people of the world and that the true word of the Lord is universal and undilluted.



SO THE QUESTION NOW IS DIRECTED TO EVERYONE IN HERE...IS OUR GOSPEL TRULY UNIVERSAL

Can you give a summary of what you understand the Gospel to mean?

And do you imagine that only one denomination will get to Heaven?

Just like the Church in sardis (Revelation 3), some churches the world over (not all though)have a number that the Lord recognise as His own irrespective of their denomination nor is the selection without a reason:

Revelations 3:4
Yet you still have a few [persons’] names in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes, and they shall walk with Me in white, because they are worthy and deserving.

I look forward to your answer to my first question.

dalaman:
I have been observing the debates and resulting out pour of emotions and curses on the United States of America after the supreme court legalized same sex marriage in the country. Many Christians are busy swearing and for casting doom, telling us of how God will destroy America for legalizing such an abominable act. They all say that America is doomed and God will take away his protection from the country.

My questions and observations are as follows. Where was God judgement on America when it enslaved and killed millions of Africans ? Where was God's judgement on America when they practiced segregation and Jim Crow with resulted in the death of uncountable innocent blacks? The country kept growing from strength to strength until it became the.most powerful nation ob earth.

Where was God's judgement on America after they invaded Vietnam and killed hundreds of thousands based on pure lies?Where is God's judgement when America invaded Iraq based purely on bogus charges, an invasion that lead to the death of about a million people. Is the legalization of gay union any worse than when slavery and segregation were legal in the United States? Where was God's judgement then?

Op while I believe that sin brings judgement and since it is man, not God, that creates grades and ranks for sin (just like those who would stone a woman caught in adultery but were also guilty of other sins) like the commentators have been doing,

I suggest we wait for the judgements to fall before we begin to give this posers.

Demmzy15:
God doesn't need to raise it, it's a known fact. The birthrites of the firstborn is inclusive.

This is your opinion again. It's the real tampering with the scriptures to suite our purpose, when we make assumptions to fill in the perceived,but non-existent gaps!

If it be so,why the silence! Besides Jacob was not Isaac's first born too neither was Judah Jacob's firstborn and the promise passed on to them!!!

Uhm mm! They could have been changed during the Reformation, the hatred of Prophet Muhammad was great then to the extend that Martin Luther King called Muhammad a 'Satan'. The changed his name to 'Baphomet' from 'Mahomet'.

Did you say the Reformation that took place under Luther born 1483, about 9.5 centuries after Mohammed and yet Luther managed to change the Torah before Mohammed came!!! I guess you had wanted to refer to somebody who came earlier!

You earlier stated that the Jews could deny anything, this happens even within ourselves when we try to make our tribe more superior than other tribes no matter the consequences! The Jews who don't like Ishmael tried to deviate everything good attributed to him to Isaac. I would have loved to present the story of Jacob and Esau which consists many inconsistencies, but that'll take a lot of time and energy. People could go to any length just to make themselves supreme!

I still wonder how the history of Israel in the Bible appears to be tampered with to make them supreme! If that was the goal, all their failures , unfaithfulness, relapsing to idolatry like the heathens, prophecies against them in their backslidings, judgement by captivity,humiliation in battle when they turned away from God etc would not be mentioned or would be summarised. Or is it the captivity in Egypt (prophesied in Genesis 15) that clarifies God's reference as to seed, but that also was one of the sore points of their history?

It was during one of this visits that they both built the Kaaba.

Well, I dont know your reference as to this.

Demmzy15:
I don't understand the point you're trying to drive out from this! They're in minority and you know it.

But they were not going, by that quote from Isaiah.

This is another contradiction because when you look at my analysis it doesn't apply to the descendants of Isaac who have always been minorities.

This is an opinion except you can prove it with facts.

I don't think so, the descendants of both were blessed but "numerous as the stars in sky" is fulfilled through the progeny of Ishmael!

This is your opinion though it contradicts what God said in Genesis 26:1,4,5

I don't know, we would have known if the Bible placed some emphasis on Ishmael, but that's not the case. Even the little blessings and offers given to Ishmael, they still turned it over.

prove this using this format:
promise -
turned over thus -

You've gotten it wrong, let's say the Arabs are the only known descendants of Ishmael and the Israelites are that of Isaac. Looking at their population from the beginning of time would ultimately tell you they are minority. When we look at the definition of an Arab, their population reaches 450-500 million. You should know that most of the Jews even found in Israel aren't from Isaac, many are from Europe. They're known as Khazars, European Jews(converts), with this not all Muslims are Arabs. The Jewish population doesn't reach 100 million and the Jews who indeed descended from Isaac are mostly found in Ethiopia!

I need to point out the fact that Abraham was not Noah hence the world was populated by the offsprings of the latter not the former. Meaning there was a growing multitude on ground already blessed by God to replenish the earth. You sound like the two (Abraham and Noah) were the same person!

It still contradicts history, in fact it contradicts itself!

kindly be specific as to how this is so.

No need to go through the back, Isaac was blessed so as Ishmael. But the scribes turned the tables around and we've caught them red-handed.

Yes no problem with the fact that they were both blessed; however God established His covenant with Isaac like He clearly said.

God is not an author of confusion but the scribes are. They deliberately change in order to suite themselves. The scribes did that from the sacrifice to the covenant, they even went further to change some words in Chronicles and Samuel!

Specify!
The way you are presenting this matter,one will think the Promised Seed- Jesus Christ- and Mohammed were contemporaries!

Demmzy15:
That criteria is very important!

But God never raised it!

It could be tampered at anytime just not to fit Ishmael. Have you heard of the "Reformation"?! The Bible came 900years after the death of Prophet Muhammad when the enmity between Muslims and Christians was great! The Jews before then might have tampered with it so as to prove Ishmael inferior because he's mother was a bond woman.

But the books concerned -the Torah- was already in existence!

A great deal of the Bible was tampered to make Ishmael an inferior and the Reformation also did tampered with the Bible. One can't explain why of over some 20,000 manuscripts only 73 was chosen!

This whole matter is mostly concerned with the Torah, which had been in use even before Jesus Christ came. I am at loss as to what intent any one will try to make Ishmael inferior while also recording all the many failures and unfaithfulness of Isaac's. Besides if they were going to tamper with the Torah to make Ishmael inferior, then surely they would have edited the parts that shows the world their unfaithfulness too!

You should know that most of Jesus's disciples were Jews. Some believed others disbelieved.

Sure. I was referring to those who rejected Him at His first coming not the ones that believed.

Nothing like that, as at when Abraham was talking to God frequently none was born and even when they were born Ishmael was with him. Islamically we believe Abraham constantly visited Ishmael and his mother.

On what basis is this belief? I mean is there any reference in either Bible or Quran?

Rilwayne001:
The false pen of the scribe was in the hand of the Jews who edited the Books of Moses, as the prophet Jeremiah bewails:

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law (the Torah) of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in VAIN made he it; the PEN OF THE SCRIBE IS IN VAIN." Jeremiah 8:8

When the Jews are found to convert an Israelite into an Ishmaelite when no motives are involved, then how much easier for them to change the word "you only son Ishmael" to : your only son Isaac!"

To confirm the Jewish sickness in the Bible:

"Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite . . . " 2 Samuel 17:25

Contadicted by

". . . and the father of Amasa was Jether (dame as Ithra) the Ishmaelite." 1 Chronicles 2:17

The name Ithra/Jether was an Israelite name. (see another Jether son of Gideon in Judges 8:20.) Jether married an Israelite (Abigail) hence he became son-in-law and/or legal son (for geneaology purposes) to Abigail's father, in this sense we can logically say he was also an Israelite. That he bore an Israelite name simply means he must have been an Israelite (by other means except descent) whose Ishmaelite ancestors were among the mixed multitude that followed Israel out of Egypt.
Exodus 12:38
And a mixed multitude went also with them, and very much livestock, both flocks and herds.


This is further confirmed by the fact that his name comes into the genealogy through his wife and not his father. And why will a man with an Israelite name and who married from Israel not be seen as a fully integrated person even though his parents were Ishmaelites? How did he come about an Israelite/Hebrew name?


If we would call this a contradiction then let's call dual citizenship (that arises as a result of birth or marriage) an aberration that must be stopped forthwith!

Demmzy15:
@emboldened and underlined, this swearing God talked about can be found in Genesis 22:15-18, now we'll study and analyze that verse critically. Here:

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time
16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,
18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

On a side note, it is interesting to know that the Jews, throughout all of history, had always been an extreme minority [/b]among all nations of the earth. [b]In fact, they are so few in numbers, that they've always had this paranoia and fear that they might just go extinct one day. So most certainly, the offsprings of Isaac, who are what are known as the People of Israel, are not as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand in the seashore.

Can you give a proof of the allegation highlighted? And to what end and which nation was Isaiah 10:22 referring to?
22 For though your population, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of it will return [and survive]. The [fully completed] destruction is decreed (decided upon and brought to an issue); it overflows with justice and righteousness [the infliction of just punishment].

By the way,"be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" was God's blessing on all creation so I'd rather focus on the peculiar specifics.

You might try to counter this by saying that Christianity and Judaism, combined, are the offspring of Jacob.

What if I had another point like I already raised?!

My response to this is:-

1-This is not true, because Christianity today is overwhelmingly and mostly made up of people who are not only not from Isaac's bloodline, but are also outside the Middle East altogether. The Isaacs and add on top of them the Ishmaelite Christians and Jews are close to nil in numbers when compared to the total Christian population world-wide.
2- Ishmaelite Christians (Arabs Christians) exist today.
3- Again, Christians from Isaac's bloodline are near nil in numbers when compared to the total Christian population world-wide.
4- The biblical verses clearly speak about descendents of Isaac. Christianity is not just limited to Isaac.
5- Only Judaism today and throughout history declares to be from Isaac and his bloodline.

Well,you are being here pre-emptive though I wont have raised these points simply because God had already said to Abraham & Isaac respectively:
Genesis 22:18
18 and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 26:1,4,5a
1...And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
4 and I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 because that Abraham obeyed my voice,

And Jacob (son of Isaac) when dying said of the tribe of Judah (whence came the Seed- Jesus Christ)
Genesis 49:10
10 The scepter or leadership shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh [the Messiah, the Peaceful One] comes to Whom it belongs, and to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

This reply given above is a continuation to the penultimate one and also clears the misconception that the Q&A you gave above suggests.

The descendants will take possession of the cities of their armies:
Furthermore, let me shed some light upon the following quote from above:
"...Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies..." (Genesis 22:17)
The following points are important to know:
1- All of the Jews' wars were limited to Palestine and in Palestine.

You would do well to back your claims with proofs.Meanwhile,
before we proceed, at what time in history did this occur to Ishmael's descendants:

Genesis 15:13,14
13 And [God] said to Abram, Know positively that your descendants will be strangers dwelling as temporary residents in a land that is not theirs [Egypt], and they will be slaves there and will be afflicted and oppressed for 400 years.
14 But I will bring judgment on that nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with great possessions.

3- The Muslims(Arabs) , however, did spread throughout the whole world, and stretched from the borders of France all the way to the borders of China, and they were deep in Asia, Europe and Africa. They are descendents of Abraham, but not from Isaac. They are Ishmaelite.

Are Arabs the only descendants of Ishmael? They spread but did they multiply? The French, Chinese,Asians,Europeans and Africans were and are different from Arabs! That you find a nigerian in every part of the world could be described as spread but that neither makes all those places Nigeria nor does it suggest that Nigeria is the World's most populous! In any case provide your proofs to the contrary!

4- Could it be that because the Bible is corrupt, those who altered the original accounts forgot to alter this piece?

Altered when and by whom in view of what to prove which point? Altered but they will include all the terrible sins and backslidings of their fathers and the captivity and judgement their sins attracted?! Altered but they will include the fact that they were many times unfaithful and were judged repeatedly by a Holy God?! Altered and yet history and archaeology attests to its contents!

In light of the fables and historical errors above, can we really trust the account about Abraham and Isaac to be true?

On the contrary, since all the prophets and kings were from Isaac's descendant, and that all the prophecies concerning captivity and deliverance were fulfilled on same, I wonder what errors are referred to!

This also applies to Ishmael, like I said earlier just because most Prophets were from Isaac's progeny doesn't mean he wasn't blessed!

Then how do you explained God saying specifically to Isaac:
Genesis 26:4,5a

4 and I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 because that Abraham obeyed my voice,

The Bible has always been mentioning 'seed' even before Isaac was born, it mentioned singularity for only Isaac when in fact Isaac wasn't even born. Ishmael is his only seed as at the time Isaac wasn't born, so when other men were circumcised they weren't his seed!

But since He is not the author of confusion, God specified who it was that will be taking after Abraham! He did not leave it to speculation!