₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
So?

Jesus is both man and God, as man all things were subjected to him but as God he is already beyond all things.

Smartini:
Psalms 8:4-8 was referring specifically to humans, not to Jesus Christ. And as at the time 1 Corinthians was written, Jesus was already back in heaven at the right hand of God as a SPIRIT CREATURE.

According to Hebrews 2 it was a man that God exalted not a Spirit creature..and according to 1 Tim 2 vv 5 Jesus is a human even in heaven.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 2:6-9. Again, a repetition of the verse in Psalms, except that in verse 7, it was mentioned that Jesus was made lower than angels while in human form here on earth, and in verse 8, all things were subjected to him when he regained his SPIRIT personality on his return to heaven.

However, you're yet to deal with the bone of contention here, which is: WHO SUBJECTED ALL THINGS TO JESUS? AND IS THE ONE WHO SUBJECTED ALL THINGS TO JESUS ALSO UNDER JESUS? OR IS JESUS SUBJECTED TO HIM

John 1:14 Sweet verse. It specifically says that YES, Jesus was full of divine glory and favour and truth, a glory that was begotten from the Father - in the end, it all links back to the Father.

The Father is the AUTHORITY. The Father is the one who GIVES while the rest RECEIVES. And as 1 Corinthians 15 says, even when ALL things have been subjected to Jesus, the Christ himself will still subjected himself to the All-Father.

Hebrews 2 is from the book of Psalm 8.
And both were referring to a human being that is exalted.
The question I want to ask you is, when did God subject all things to Jesus?

TruthHurts100:
When you hear the truth, may the devil not close your ears to it.

Many people today believe that God and Jesus are the same. Well, that's not true.

God does not have a beginning, Jesus has. Col 15:1 Refers to Jesus as the first born of all creation. He was created directly by God and that is why he's referred to as the only begotten son of God.

Jesus on numerous occasions calls God his father and that he's here to do the will of the one who sent him. He asked God for permission in prayers to do certain things.
When he was about to die, he called to his fathers again.

So, does it make sense to say Jesus sent himself, took permission from himself, pray to himself and most of all sacrifice himself to himself for our sakes?

Yes! Before you tell me Jesus said he and his father are one as written at John 10:30.
Note the meaning of what he meant as he used the same term when praying for his Apostles at John 17:11

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Was Jesus talking about equality here? He said they should be one just like he and the father are one.


I rest my case.

If you still want to believe in the trinity lies that was never mentioned in the Bible. You are on your own.

God will not share his glory with anyone, not even Jesus that he created.

I know another scripture you might want to quote.... Bring it on.

First of all, God and Jesus are not the same in what way?
Yes God [the father] is not the same person as Jesus but however are one God.
Jesus christ as a man is less than the father but as God he and the father are one being (not in person).
The Trinity is the existence of one being in three persons or three persons in one being.

Jesus is the first born over all creation means he is the Supreme ruler over all or the head of all creation.

Janosky:
1 Corinthians 15:27"Under his feet"= within Jesus's control & authority.
Colossians 1:19 & 2:9,Is divine nature within Jesus Christ control & authority?
Colossians 1:19,Oga Steep,nah who give divine nature to Jesus?


[i]I said it before and must say it again.
"Oga Steep HATED Colossians 1:19, John 17:7, Luke 10:22 & 1 Corinthians15:27.
Jesus said it, Luke wrote it, John wrote it & Paul even wrote the same truth.Oga Steep no agree.
/i]


Yet,God his Father has no God.

Oga Steep,Revelation 3:12 & John 20:17,does Jesus Christ have his God?

Read my reply to maxD

MaxInDHouse:
1Corinthians 15:27
Said God who subjected everything under Christ is not subjected to Christ!

What is mortal man that you keep him in mind, And a son of man that you take care of him? 5 You made him a little lower than godlike ones, And you crowned him with glory and splendor. 6 You gave him dominion over the works of your hands; You have put everything under his feet: 7 All the flocks and cattle, As well as the wild animals, 8 The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, Whatever passes through the paths of the seas. Psalms 8:4-8

But in one place a certain witness said: “What is man that you keep him in mind, or a son of man that you take care of him? 7 You made him a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:6-9

So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. John 1:14

What has these got to do with the fact that the Christ under whose feet all things were subjected is lower to the true God who gave him such power? Psalms 110:1

Good, Because you can see from the verses both in psalm 8 and Hebrews 2 that It is the whole creation that is being inferred.
It is the whole creation that is subjected to Christ not God.

MaxInDHouse:
Just like so many churchgoers he doesn't even know what TRINITY really means!

What do you understand by Trinity?

Smartini:
"It is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him"

What do you understand that statement to mean, Sir? Let's start with that

Read psalm 8 vv 4- 8
And also hebrews 2 vv 6 -9
And also John 1 vv 14

MaxInDHouse:
Can you please correlate the highlighted with the last sentence?

Read psalm 8 vv 4- 8
And also hebrews 2 vv 6 -9.

And also John 1 vv 14

Smartini:
How is a different topic entirely? Because that verse defeats every Trinitarian theory?

Because that chapter explicitly states that all the power, glory and authority Jesus now has in heaven and on earth was GIVEN to him by God, and that even though all things have been subjected to Jesus, Jesus himself still has to subject himself to the All-Father?

And that even Jesus' authority as King is for a limited period of time, after which he'll hand over authority back to the Father who gave him in the first place? I think the issue with Trinitarians is that they underestimate the power of God and His ability to create someone as powerful as Jesus and bestow him with that much power and authority.

You could quote 3-5 scriptures out of context to support your Trinity dogma, but there are at least 1,000 verses in the Bible that proves that Jesus, despite all the power, might, nature and titles he has, STILL has a GOD he bows down to, whose right hand he seats on and who has ALL the power in the world to grant authority as he so wishes.

How?

1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Going by your logic the divine nature of God was put under Jesus feet?

Janosky:
Essence definition= nature, quality.
"God's essence"= divine nature, quality.
Colossians 1:19 screenshot.
Colossians 2:9 bill mounce screenshots.

Oga Steep grasping at straws

The word "essence" does not just mean quality but the important quality.
In Christianity when we say God's essence we actually mean his deity or Godhood.
That is what theoites mean. Jesus embodies the Fullness of God's deity.

For your screen shots, what is the Greek interlinear of colosians 2 vv 9?

Janosky:
1 Corinthians 15:27 = Genesis 41:40-43.

"For God subjected all things under Christ feet.
But when God says "all things have been subjected," It is evident that this does NOT include
God the Father who subjected all things to him (Christ)."

This is a different topic entirely.

Janosky:
Steep HATES Colossians 1:19 in the same manner Steep HATED John 17:7 & Luke 10:22.


Joseph possessed Royalty in Egypt.
Is Joseph equal to king Pharoah?
Is Joseph king Pharoah?

Trinitarians superglued to Mumu

nah you be mumu.

Did Joseph possess the full royalty of Pharaoh?

Janosky:
Oga,"Theias, Theotetes" is NOT in the Greek holy scriptures.
Theios, Theiotes both meaning godlike, divine nature, screenshot evidence

Luke 10:22 & John 17:7, is Jesus teaching Oga Steep that Jesus "is the same God with the Father"?

you are arguing with yourself.
Christians partaking in the divine nature is completely different from Jesus embodiment of the divine nature.
The word used there in 2 peter 1 vv4 is theias


I don't think you even understand what you wrote.
The meaning of a particular word is determined by its functions.
Theiotes means God's essence especially as used in Colossians 2 vv 9.

Janosky:
Oga, you are typing GIBBERISH.

"Godhead" is NOT in the Greek holy scriptures.
Your Trinity mentors DUBIOUSLY inserted "Godhead" into the holy scriptures & use it whenever it pleases them to TWIST the holy scriptures @ Acts 17:29 & Colossians 2:9
Reference screenshots, Colossians 2:9 Mounce Greek interlinear.

Theios /Theotes meaning basically the same thing- divine, divinity, deity,godlike= divine nature/ godlike nature.

Jesus possess the fullness of divine nature because Jesus confessed it was GIVEN to him.
The big question:
Will Oga Steep accept Jesus words @ John 17:7 & Luke 10:22?

You don't realise you have just admitted that Jesus is God Almighty.
Where did Jesus say he was given the divine nature?
Jesus possesses the fullness of the divine nature full stop.

Jokanem:
God is not the cause of our sufferings.

'It is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly, for the Almighty to do wrong'.
Job 34:10

Why is there so much suffering in the world?

1. The ruler of the world is Satan the devil .
1 John 5:19

2. Humans cause others to suffer.
Ecclessiates 8:9

3. Sometimes people suffer because they are at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Ecclessiates 9:11

4. Humans have had many kinds of governments, but they cannot rule the world successfully.
Isaiah 55:9

5. 'It doesn't belong to Man who is walking even to direct his step'.
Jeremiah 10:23

Jehovah has deep love for people. He hate to see them suffer.
1 Peter 5:7

Jehovah will undo all damages that satan has done on Earth during his kingdom that is soon to come.
1 John 3:5

You may wonder;

When will sufferings end?

What do bad things happen to good people?

Fine Bible based answers in the world most visited faith and belief website www.jw.org

There is no body that is good according to Jesus.
The reason why there is suffering is sin.
God cursed the earth in Genesis 3,
Sin is the cause death is the result however God sent Jesus to redeem mankind from sin by just believing on him as their Lord and saviour.

MaxInDHouse:
You've been answered but you just don't want to agree so go and settle countless religions out there claiming Christians with contradicting opinions on the personality of the only true God.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES have answered you that according to Jesus himself his father whose name is JEHOVAH is the one and only true God! John 17:3

So far you guys have failed to address op.
You guys don't know scriptures at all.

MaxInDHouse:
According to the Bible someone spoke from heaven confirming that Jesus came as His representative saying:

“This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him" Matthew 17:5

Jesus himself told everyone that that's the one and only true God {Mark 12:29; John 17:3} so humble yourself and learn Jehovah's Witnesses are ever ready to help you with what the Bible really teach {Matthew 28:19-20} unlike you people who only make noise in the buses and street corners! Matthew 12:19

Uptil now no answer.

Colossians 2 vv 9 states that Jesus possesses the fullness of the Godhead.

Theotetes as used in Colossians 2 vv 9 is rightly interpreted as Godhead

However 2 peter 1 vv 4 is theias which is interpreted as divine nature not Godhead.

The difference is theias means belonging or originating from God.

So "the divine nature" means the nature that originate from God
Theotetes on the other hand means God's inherent nature, what makes God to be God.

If Jesus possesses the thoetes then he is same God with the Father.
But Christians possesses the divine nature which means the nature that originated from God or that belongs to God.

Uptil now no answer.

Colossians 2 vv 9 states that Jesus possesses the fullness of the Godhead.

Theotetes as used in Colossians 2 vv 9 is rightly interpreted as Godhead

However 2 peter 1 vv 4 is theias which is interpreted as divine nature not Godhead.

The difference is theias means belonging or originating from God.

So "the divine nature" means the nature that originate from God
Theotetes on the other hand means God's inherent nature, what makes God to be God.

If Jesus possesses the thoetes then he is same God with the Father.
But Christians possesses the divine nature which means the nature that originated from God or that belongs to God.

Aemmyjah:
If you say so
Rock ya boat

If you were not ready to answer the question why comment in the first place?

MaxInDHouse:
Same way Jesus represented his father!

Jesus is God Almighty, he embodies the Fullness of the Godhead.

MaxInDHouse:
So the Gods mentioned @ Psalms 82:6 aren't created shey?

that is figurative, they are no gods.
The judges of Israel were called elohim because they represent God same way Moses represented God to pharoah.

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus had no life before God gave him life so if he is alive God is the one who gave him divine or not!

You have not answered the question where was it written that the father gave Jesus divinity?
Remember on the quality of God is the fact that God is untreated, anything created can be God.
If Jesus is God then he is uncreated.

Aemmyjah:
He's a spirit
A glorious spirit creature
Second only to God
The Son of a King is not the King but like the King having both honor and power and royalty

Is God a Spirit creature? Can God be created?
If Jesus has the fullness of the essential nature of God (theotetes) that makes Jesus the uncreated creator.

MaxInDHouse:
"All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.” Luke 10:22

Everything he has was given to him by his father!

Are you listening to yourself? So divinity was handed to Jesus?
So before the father handed divinity to Jesus what was Jesus?

Janosky:
John 17:7,24=2 Peter 1:4=Colossians 2:9-10.
Did Your Bible says God his Father given divine nature to Jesus and to the disciples?

John 17:7, ESV: "Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you."


Case closed!

So where was it written that the father gave him divine nature?

Barristter07:
You are doing too much mental gymnastics to distance Christians from the divine nature.

" That you may be filled with all the fullness of God . " Ephesians 3:19

Anyone who partakes of the divine nature embodies the Fullness of God.

Verse 10 I repeat said Christians have the same Fullness as Christ.

I am glad you are learning some new things

It is no metal gymnastics, it is simple read scriptures according to context. Peter was simply talking about life christians recieve, virtue and glory.

you are jumping up and down taking scriptures out of context.

Do you even know that the Greek word used for God in Ephsians is theou but the one used in
Colossians 2 vv 9 is theotetes, which describes the very essential nature of God.
These two Greek forms have different functions.

Ephesians 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

The fulness of God here simply means the fulness that belongs to God he is not talking of theotetes

In fact the Greek word used in 2 Peter 1vv 4 is theias which means divinely but when the very essential nature of God is referred to it is theotetes.

Barristter07:


The Bible said humans are sharers of flesh and blood. It means you have full flesh and blood. ( heb 2:14) share in that context only means there are others with flesh and blood too, not just a person.

Christians becoming sharers of divine nature means they have that exact fullness , just as Col 2:10 said. Alongside Jesus.

The point you are not admitting is Jesus was given that nature , just as other Christians. Only the Father wasn't given what he has, that is why he alone is the only true God.

@ bolded If Jesus possesses the fulness of the father's nature it means he has all that the father has otherwise it is no longer full.
Words are read in context
Peter said Christians share in the divine nature, the preceeding statement said that through his promises that is the key to what Peter met.

What divine nature was Peter talking about?
The divine nature is his life, virtue and glory.

That is the context of Peter was speaking.
Read from vv 3

Barristter07:
Since Christians have full divine quality, do you accept they are truly God's too ?

@ Bolded I thought you were even reasonable.

Barristter07:
@highlighted
Are you aware Christians also have that very same divine essence ? That proves verse 10 is saying the same divine quality fullness exist in Christians.

" By these He has given us very great and precious promises, so that through them you may share in the divine nature "
2Pet 1:4

The blue part of your post is a scam. since Someone with God's nature is a deity.

The big question remains : Does this mean Christians are equal to God the Father since they have his very nature ? Whatever your answer applies to Jesus

The difference is that Christ has the fullness of the God nature while Christians just partake or share in it.

And the context

Aemmyjah:
Why did you say it is for Jehovah's Witnesses as if we establish our own teaching? What does the Bible say?

Let's read Jesus Christ words at John 17:3
This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

From that verse, Jesus says we must come to know two distinct persons. The only true God and the one whom he sent. The reward then is everlasting life

Jehovah is the only true God and Jesus Christ was the one that the true God sent into the world... Simple as ABC

Non of you has addressed question raised by op.
If Jesus embodies the full divine quality doesn't this make his truly God also?
And also what does " only true God" mean?

stasius:
How do you know?
Have you been to heaven or hell? Have you seen God before to know his ways?
Sometimes we just open mouth and talk waaaa!
How old are you? How old is Catholic Church?

you are in darkness, blinded by false religion.
The Roman catholic church does not serve God but the queen of heaven.

Barristter07:
it only highlight that without Christ we won't have such fullness. Likewise without the Father Christ won't have that divine quality too

" For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him" Colosian 1:19

It's by the permission of the Father.

Yes, Christ is Lord, Yes Christ is powerful but it's disingenuous to not accept the Fact that everything he has was given to him by a Supreme being.

You seems to be conflicting the fulness that Christian has in Christ with the fulness that Christ embodies which is that of divine essence.

The difference is col 2 vv 9 Cleary stated that Christ fullness is one of diety but th complete of that of Christians is not one of diety.

I don't see how col 1 vv 19 help your case because it says God is pleased with the fact that all fulness dwell in christ

colossians 1 vv 19 said the father is pleased to have all fulness dwells in christ, what fullness?

The fullness is the fact that
Jesus is the creator of all things, he is the reason creation exist. He is the head/ ruler of all creation, and he is the saviour also.

Christ created, governs all things and the saviour of the church.
So the father is pleased all these fulness should be in Christ.
Colossians 2 vv 9 is very express that the fulness of the very quality of God is in Christ.