₦airaland Forum

sonmvayina:
It is not for the Jewish nation..

He was suffering from what was done to him...

You need to check their history and see their suffering..

Did you even read the passage?
Who are the people of God, is it not Israel?

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

You can see that it is because of God's people, Israel that the suffering servant was was stricken.


Israel suffered because of their sins but the suffering servants suffered because of the sins of others, therefore the suffering servant is not Israel.

AntiChristian:
Of what importance is that to the "Jesus is servant of God" Discussion we have?

So where is in the Bible did Jesus called himself a servant of God?

If you can answer me then I will also answer you.
Where in the bible did Jesus call himself son of Mary?

Lukuluku69:
From you?

You are having a laugh.

Lol.

There is no Christian alive that will make me run when we talk about the Bible. None.

But I will run if we go round and round in circles. That I guarantee you. When we are not making any headway and instead kept repeating the same thing over and over. Yeah I will leave.

Do you remember how many time you gat me posting that attachment/quoting Jeremiah Chapter 8 Vs 8/9? More than 6 times. I don't have such Patience.

So, Padre, Adios

You are going round in circles because you are avoiding questions.
So because Jeremiah described the pen of the scribes as lying pens means they corrupted the scriptures?
Do you even know what is context?
Even if they corrupted the Torah, are you aware that other godly people had copies of the Torah eg Daniel

Also Do you also know that the book of Isaiah is not part of the Torah?

You jumped to a different topic entirely from the book of Isaiah you jumped to the Torah.

That verse does not mean they corrupted the Torah rather they began to write their own which is not part of both the books of the prophets and the Torah.

Lukuluku69:
Padre, do have a nice life.

Adios!

finally ran away.

Lukuluku69:
Padre, apart from the Ten Commandments, there are other Laws God gave thru Moses to the Israelites. These. laws bothers on Commerce, inehritance, conflict resolutions, Marriage, in fact all facets of Life and livings. Laws befitting a people God chooses as a beacon for other Nations to see and aspire to be like.

For space, I won't be able to enumerate them here but you are a Christian, find time and read the Old Testament and see for yourself.

Aside these Laws, their are Prophecies by Israelites Prophets about what the future holds. Their backsliding into idolatry and changing the Laws to favour a sections of the society and the likes.

Remember Jesus railing about Traditions of Men? They left what was ordained and follow what their elders says. That in itself is idolatry.

If you really want to know how messed up the Jewish hierarchy was, read Jeremiah and Isaiah.

They did not stopped at changing the Laws, they also tampered with Prophecies. They change names, change places just to make the Prophecies obscure and unintelligent to sincere seeker after God's Kingdom.

Jesus Christ also gave a parable about the Dog in the Manger. Who won't eat the Hays but will prevent the Sheep and cows from accessing the hays. That was the Jewish hierarchy at best.

So, coming back to the Book of Isaiah, I can show you where they changed names, where they changed places just to make Prophecies obscure for people. To really know this, that depends on your level of knowledge and how close or open minded you are.

As for your refrain about who is that Servant that Isaiah talked about, it is not Jesus. You guys claimed he is God and so he can't be his own servant. Also, that isaiah (53) I think is not made up of just one verse. Why not let us look at it together?

what has all these got to do with Isaiah prophecy?
How did you know that the book of Isaiah is corrupted explain?

sonmvayina:
God said over and over that he hates human sacrifice. In Isaiah 53, nobody died and there is no resurrection anywhere...
"He shall see his offspring

He shall prolong his days...the will of the lord shall prosper in his hands..

I told you to read it in context, you keep isolating text...

The suffering servant is Israel/jacob

How come in Isaiah 53 the suffering servants is described as a sacrifice for the Jewish nation?

AntiChristian:
So you've seen that you're mistaken right?

Yeah! We believe in all Prophets and the respective revelations given to them for their people. However, none of the previous scriptures was preserved. Only the Qur'an is Preserved!

So where is in the Bible did Jesus called himself a servant of God?

Where in the bible did Jesus call himself son of Mary?

sonmvayina:
Nobody died ...

Read 10-12

I don't want to keep repeating myself.

Lukuluku69:
And the simple asnwer is despite working for me, he is still my son! He will never be my servant.

If he is working for you then he is also your worker.
In those days a worker is also a servant.

Lukuluku69:
Oga, keep twisting and turning ooo. Na you get yourself

So the Laws is no longer Scriptures?

So which Scripture did they reject and can you point me to the Laws they wrote themselves?

That is the issue with you the defenders of the Jews. Jeremiah, a Prophet of God called the Pens of the Scribes "LYING PENS" Meaning they made changes therein and here I have a Nigerian living almost 3,000 years after twisting, convulting and saying otherwise.

Oga, I symapathise with you but you have believed a Lie.

I can see that you are sincere at least. Walk with me and I will show you the lies Jeremiah was talking about. At least the little I know.

So what does the the scribes penning down laws for themselves have with the prophecy of Isaiah?
By the way, saying the scribes penned down lies is obviously not talking about the law of Moses nor the prophets, the scriptures are intact, it was the scribes during Jeremiah's days that he described as "having lying pen".

The question remains unanswered who is the servant of God that became a sacrifice for sin?

Lukuluku69:
Jeremiah Chapter 8 verses 8/9

Since you are on free basics and can't see the attachment.

ABI make I send you my Bible too?

Read that verse again, it is not talking of the scriptures.
The scriptures Consist of two parts, the book of the law and the prophets.

The scribes abandoned the scriptures and wrote false laws for the people.

So again if anything at all, it does not concern the books of the prophets of which Isaiah belongs.

Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

They rejected the scriptures and wrote false laws for the people.

The scriptures remained in tact however the rejected it to make their own law.

Lukuluku69:
And the question is?

If you want to read how the Scribes muddied up their Books, please read Jeremiah Chapter 8. Please pay special interest to verses 8 and 9.

You just conjured words from your imagination, where in Nehemiah or Jeremiah was it written that the Jews corrupted their scriptures?

Lukuluku69:
Right from Genesis, they have been lying. Adding and subtracting from God's word and calling it God's word.

I can show you if you don't mind

you have not answered the question

Lukuluku69:
Right from Genesis, they have been lying. Adding and subtracting from God's word and calling it God's word.

I can show you if you don't mind

you have not provided evidence.

Lukuluku69:
A son is a son and a Servant is a servant. Two different things.

Of course my son can work for me, but he remains my son and not my servant. And a servant can't be my son, hetemains a servant.

No matter how you looked at it, Paternity is not bestowed on anyone aside the ones from my Loins.

It's a simple question can a Son not work for his father?

Lukuluku69:
The Jews tampered with it.

Read the Bible nah. Even Prophet Nehemiah or Jeremiah alluded to that fact in the bible.

" The LYING PENS of the Scribes.....

You just conjured words from your imagination, where in Nehemiah or Jeremiah was it written that the Jews corrupted their scriptures?

Lukuluku69:
Exactly. I don't need to wrap anything around anything. It doesn't make sense. For that reason, I am out.

The Bible never support it, reason and logic is against it.

I only proved it and it falls short.

He is God, he is God's son and now he is God's Servant. Shey Jesus na foreman ni?

Are you saying a Son cannot work for his father?

Lukuluku69:
We believe in their Message in it's pristine state. Not when men with an Agenda have muddied up their message.

Who muddled Isaiah's message?
The book of Isaiah was kept be the jews themselves, do you think they would alter it to prove that Jesus is the messiah which they hated?

Lukuluku69:
In prison? For how many days abeg? The high priest can't hold anyone in prison, the Romans will send him to prison if they found out. Bros, try another line.

So, Jesus is no longer God or Gods son to you or to the whole of Christiandom?

yes they do. It doesn't matter if it is days or hours.

Jesus is God's Son you cannot wrap you head with the fact that Jesus was both a Son and a servant.

AntiChristian:
No! Torah is mentioned in the Qu'ran likewise Injeel and Zaboor!

Show us where the book of Isaiah is mentioned?

Torah was revealed to Moses!

Show us where Jesus called himself a servant of God?

But you Muslims say you believe in all the prophets that means you believe in their messages.

Lukuluku69:
Which prison was Jesus taken to and from. Was he ever in any Prison? Please show me from the Bible.

Saying Jesus was a SERVANT of God is not a Christian Creed nah. He is God Himself or if you like, the Son!

Applying this prophecy to him is deceit of the highest order. You should know that. How can one person be God, Son of God and still Servant of God? Haba.

You see the confusion I highlighted above are man made. God is not the author of confusion but rather Men. Men with their Agenda muddied up everything and leave you clutching straws.

I know Jesus is so many things to you guys, to some he is God Himself, to some he is the son. I have never seen where he is said to be God's Servant.

So, bros no be Jesus that verse is talking about.

Yes was actually imprisoned, it has being discovered that at the high priest house there is a form of prison where he uses for trials.

Know this today Jesus was God's servant.

sonmvayina:
Educate yourself

https://aish.com/isaiah_53_the_suffering_servant/


https://aish.com/jeremiah-31-and-the-new-covenant/

None of them addressed the issue, Israel has never bear the sin of others neither is Israel without violence in fact the suffering that Israel passed through is because of their sins.

Isaiah 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.

Note Israel suffering is because of her sins but the suffering servant suffered and died because of the sins of others.
Therefore it is clear that Israel is not the suffering servant.

Lukuluku69:
If I remember clearly, the Book of Isaiah has 66 Chapters. I would rather take the message as a whole rather than make a Religion out or one or two verses from the book.

Jesus according to the Christian creed was never a Servant of God rather God Himself or the Son of God. So why are you applying a prophecy that mentioned a SERVANT? Do you thing that is logical? I think not.


And you don't have to mention Jesus for I know that is where you are going!

Besides, "wounding" someone is not akin to killing them. And I am sure that Isaiah knows the difference.

So, the servant in Isaiah could not have been Jesus. And if you say he is Immanuel, then I ask you to show me in the New Testament where Jesus was called as such just once or where it was alluded to that fact.

I did ask you to make religion out of anything buy just a simple question?
@bolded
Isaiah didn't say he was only wounded but was cut off from the living, he made his grave with the rich his soul was made and offering for sin

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

A simple question you have being dribbling, dodging, and avoiding the issue.
You still have not answered the question who is this servant?

sonmvayina:
Read it in context...you are still reading in isolation..

Do you know what is context? I didn't read in isolation I showed you others verse that reinforced that the context of Isaiah 53 is not Israel.

Lukuluku69:
As a Muslim, it is matter of Belief in ALL Prophet of God irrespective of their home Nation. From Hindu Cush, from Elam, from Judea, Samaria, Hadhramaut, Arabia, Ethiopia, Africa, Khatamandu or anywhere on this planet. I believe them ALL.

Yes I believe Isaiah in fact if. You go thru my posts, I would say he is the most quoted Israelite prophet by my humble self.

But in all I have never seen where Isaiah mentioned that a Certain Jesus will come and die for people's sins. Never!

@ really believe in the prophet Isaiah tell me, who is the righteous servant that bear the sin of God's people. Isaiah 53, I have not mentioned Jesus have I, tell me who is the servant it is very simple.

sonmvayina:
Don't pick verses in isolation. Read them together. ..and for your information Isaiah never said for ...but from ..
He was wonder from our transgressions...

It is the kings of the earth that is talking when they realise that Israel was right all along..

Read again, this time start from 52:12

No, I am not reading in Isolation, the kings of the earth are not God's people, it is Israel that are God's people.

Jeremiah 31:1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

God never punished Israel for the sake of other nations.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Lamentations 4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.

Lukuluku69:
What question bros?

If you mean a "dying" servant for sins? That one is not a question but a conjecture. No one dies for anybody's sin. My sins are on me and yours on you. No one bears another's burden.

So say the Bible, The Quran and many other Religious Text of the World.

And if you are going to quote Isaiah, please not that that book has been in the hands of the Jews for Centuries in fact some 1,400 years before the alleged crucifixion of Jesus. Their reading doesn't say any Servant will die for anyone.

And if I missed your question, please amuse me by repeating it in my mention Sir!

I thought you believe in all the prophet of God, Isaiah is one of them.

So how come Mohammed denied the words of other prophet that came before him?

sonmvayina:
First and foremost the suffering servant is Jacob/Israel..not jesus..Isaiah already told you 8 times prior to 53 like in Isaiah 41:1-9 and 45:1-9.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Simple question,
The righteous servant was stricken for the sin of God's people,
Who are God's people? Was it not Israel?
If Israel is God's people then they can not be the suffering servant,

According to Isaiah Israel has violence in her hands.

Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

Even Jeremy confirmed it.

Jeremiah 6:6 For thus hath the LORD of hosts said, Hew ye down trees, and cast a mount against Jerusalem: this is the city to be visited; she is wholly oppression in the midst of her.

6:7 As a fountain casteth out her waters, so she casteth out her wickedness: violence and spoil is heard in her; before me continually is grief and wounds.

However, unlike Israel ,the righteous servant had no violence.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

From this it is clear that Israel is not the suffering servant

Secondly the new convenient is a renewal of the only convenant...God will write the laws in their heart and not on paper so that it becomes easy to keep.

Read them again..

There is no renewal of the old,
Yahweh said the new one would not be like the old one.
So this covenant is not according to the Old one.

Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Lukuluku69:
So Jesus is no longer God's son and God himself but now God's SERVANT?

So, Jesus is God, Son of God and Servant of God? And what again?

you can attempt the question.

AntiChristian:
Which question? No servant ever died to save people except some babalawo rituals we hear nowadays!

Book of Isaiah is even worse than the corrupted injeel.

No servant ever became sacrifice for sin!

Sin needs repentance not blood sacrifice like babalawo!

Where is it written in the Koran that book of Isaiah is corrupted?

AntiChristian:
Everything God created are his servants particularly humans, spirits and Angels.

No servant of God came to die.

John 3:16 did not call him a servant!

Jesus is the second God of your Godhead trinity! If he's a servant then Holy spirit is also a servant and only the father is the master.

So why would the father associate two servants with himself in his godhead lordship? This makes no sense!

Answer the question and stop deflecting. Book of Isaiah is not injeel and so is not corrupt, so answer me who is the servant that became a sacrifice for sin, it is clearly written

sonmvayina:
Jesus dying for sin is in the realm of Lucifer..

It has got nothing to do with God.

God already gave the solution to the problem of sin in the Tanakh. 2nd chronicles 7:14..

God hates human sacrifice.it is an abomination.

Why did God lay the sin of Israel on the suffering servant?
If the solution was already given, why were animals used for sacrifice continously?


Why did God promise to make a new covenant if the first one was the solution?
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Note the new Covenant according to yahweh would be different.