₦airaland Forum

NativeBoy: Hahaha I do see we disagree on so much. Again you make very fine points especially when you indicate that it was man's greed that created the slave trade and even those who were believers cast it's message aside at the prospect of making it big.

In all seriousness though, I think it is too often quickly forgotten that it was Christianity that civilized Europe as well as many parts of Africa. It was the missionaries who built the schools and hospitals in Nigeria and unified us under one language. One must ask why atheists didn't do this?

Here's another question: would a truly darwinism-minded group of atheists have built the schools and churches? Wouldn't their espousal of a "survival of the fittest" doctrine have justified subjugating and even wiping out the "primitive" race in order to possess their resources?

Religion shined the light of knowledge in Africa and try as they might, no one can take that away.

Hehe...we actually do disagree on a lot bro.

I can't really speak for atheist because I don't consider myself one lol. However, I will disagree on the part that Christianity civilized Africa. That is according to those old (but relatively recent) history books that were written with ink laced with racism (a relatively new concept). Older records reveal that there were many "civilizations" before the western/European variant. It is now widely accepted that the use of the word "civilization" is faulty because it usually refers to a particular type of civilization, the European type. So, what definition of civilization are we using here? Many parts of Africa were civilized before they adopted western civilization which was actually heavily influenced by African knowledge and civilization.

Perhaps we should not derail this thread. This is a completely different discussion and topic.

In my opinion, religion had/has too little positives.

nora544: I feel that but i want to show that communism is also nothing what is good for people.

Ah...I see

nora544: Communism is no religion it is an economic system and it it didnot work.

Why the people fight against communism in Europa, can you tell me one country which still has communism where the people have a free speach.

In china when you say something against the goverment you will end in jail. North Korea the people live in fear, what is with the other countries who have still communism is there economic good no.

Christian religion is not bad when it is teached the right way not like it is teached and preached in most of the african countries.

The new chistian churches like you have it in nigeria that are the problem. A church who tell there followers when they didnot go tho this 4 day event than God will make something bad with them, sorry that is the wrong way.

Ok. I don't think I was actually promoting communism, was I? I was merely addressing the communism/religion nexus.

Some of the ills you mentioned are evident in non-communist societies as well, you know? That is however besides the point.

Don't worry, I am not a communist

Logicboy03: Many types of Buddhism has no god as well. There are atheistic religions.There is religion without God


Atheism itself is not a religion and can not be. It is a disbelief not a belief.

As for communism- it has everything a religion needs
-worship of an entity- the state
-rituals
-faith (in the power of the state)
-symbols
-organised
etc

Absolutely! Hence I said it is not a religion in the traditional sense. Communism itself is anti-religion(traditional religion). I do think atheism can have religious tendencies depending on the individual. I've met atheists who exhibit the features they condemn in other religions as well. You know, questions that are not supposed to be asked, irrational thinking etc. But like i said, it depends on the individual.

HumbledbYGrace: Claim your heritage as we make a month of October, the first Nairaland celebrated African cultures fare.

Here is how we are going to do it;

First week we will be showcasing the traditional dresses, for both maidens and Warriors.

Second week will be for food....showcasing our traditional dishes and elaborating on how they are prepared.

Third week...we look at our ancestors dwellings.

And fourth week

Volunteers will tell us what makes their culture different, the cultural dances, how the girls are wooed, how is marriage performed and what is expected of a newly wed daughter in law by her inlaws etc, you can add your own, come let's have fun.

This is beautiful! I will hopefully make my contributions soon.

I've always thought communism is anti-religion (i.e. religion in its real sense). However, some have compared the similarities between the way religion works and the way communism works. That position is however, very debatable. Communism has always fought against religion (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc.).

Communism's fight against religion started to take a somewhat religious form in itself, hence the argument by some that communism is a religion. I don't think communism endorses the idea of a man living in the sky directing all things though. So, I guess we might need to define what we mean by "religion". Saying communism is a religion can also lead to us labeling Atheism as a religion. They both have their "religious" tendencies. I guess it is better to define religion in its "traditional" sense. Whatever that means.....

NativeBoy: You have raised excellent points and I will certainly mull them over.

As you rightly pointed out, black groups/communities worldwide tend to be very religious, and it is because of that very state of poverty that makes them turn to religion. It is a source of hope that this world is not all that there is and that the next will be better. I don't think you would argue, as some try to do, that religion made them poor; they were already in that state even before turning to religion. And that is the point I think you and I both agree on: with or without religion man will be poor if he does not take hold of his own life.

There are two points though that I would contend with you on. The first is that I don't think that "over-religiousity", to use your words, is the cause of the lack of direction. I think it's apathy (the sense of utter hopelessness). Coming to terms with just how desperate their situation is, many lose hope in their own abilities to they can change their situation so they cling further unto their faith. Now this "over-religiousity" is only an issue if they retreat into a hope where they think one who is greater than them, i.e. Jesus, will do everything for them as though he were a genie. This is actually contrary to scripture (discussion for another day). In essence, my point is that apathy is the true cause of a lack of direction and I do not think that going to church less will give you direction. Personally, I spend a lot of time both at church and pursuing my goals.

The second issue of contention is the the unity issue. I would contend that the disunity among us as blacks for which religion takes the blame is due simply to the dark nature of man. I would say that religion is just another tool that man uses to justify conflict with his fellow man. And again, I think religion is an easy tool to use because man can appeal to a higher authority in order to justify his actions and thereby excuse himself from responsibility. Without doubt, history shows that some of the greatest atrocities have been committed in the name of God but it also shows that others had nothing to do with God. It was man being man.

I really do appreciate the civility and thoroughness with which you raised your points. It's what Nairaland needs more of if we are to get to a point where as a collective we can achieve something. I have never seen back and forth name-calling achieve anything.

God Bless.

Indeed! Black communities that are extremely religious can be argued to be already poor. However, we can argue that they were already religious as well. Besides that even if religion did not directly cause their poverty, religion certainly has something to do with them remaining in poverty because.....

of apathy which is the main cause of lack of direction as you rightly pointed out. Apathy actually means the lack of interest in pursuing things that should be important, being docile when action is required or lack of interest. This is a manifestation of over-religiosity, don't you think? Like you said, over-religiosity is when people think that Jesus will do everything for them. You mentioned that it is contrary to the scripture, I 100% agree with you. Yet the scripture says "do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers". Thus, many Christians refuse to engage in progressive activities like politics or protests and campaigns for example. In order to further support their resolve to not engage, scriptures like "for we fight not against flesh and blood but principalities...." are brandished. In other words, they only way to achieve change is to pray endlessly in the churches. I have to balance this, this is not meant to be an attack on Christianity. Over-religiosity can also be seen in our Islamic brothers as well. Except that it is mostly manifested in aggression and contemporarily, terrorism. It is the same over-religiosity expressed in different ways.

Both types of over-religiosity are obviously not beneficial. My point is that apathy and over-religiosity compliment each other and can lead to a lack of vision and direction. I do however agree that this is not universal as there are exceptions, just like yourself but according to my experience, it is true is most cases.

The unity aspect, I completely agree with. Humans have always had excuses and reasons to commit the most heinous acts. Which is why I think the world will probably fair better without it. Without religion, there will be less sentiments and people's acts can be seen exactly for what they are. For example slavery was about greed and economic reasons not dogmas like racism or religion. Yet, racism (invented) and Christianity were used to justify and foster it.

Brilliant observation about nairaland! You know what? Sometimes I think that the reason why the country is so messed up can be seen on Nairaland by just spending 1 hour on this forum. One one hand, you have silly people and on the other, you have people who think they are smart and because of that everybody else's opinion is worth nothing. We then end up with curses and name-calling and at the end, no one has actually managed to communicate. I do appreciate your respect and open mindedness even though we disagree on quite a lot lol.

Peace!

NativeBoy: Too easy to blame religion. There is a deep lingering thought that needs to be considered: why is it that every black society, no matter where in the world, is essentially in abject poverty. Is that the fault of religion or there are other deeply rooted issues that need to be considered? I’ve know successful Nigerians; some were religious and others were not. The problem with us, blacks in general, not just Nigerians, is that most of us don’t have a certain direction of our lives, and the ones that do have that direction don’t know how to go about making it a reality. Is this the fault of religion?

Lastly, what has been most detrimental to us as blacks is our inability to unite. Until recently, it is not religion that divides us, rather we draw up the most idiotic lines: bloods vs crips, light-skinned vs dark-skinned, the more educated vs the less educated, who is more like the white man vs who isn’t etc… Not that divisions like this don’t exist among other races, they do. But for us who need to rebuild our land, they are a chain around our necks. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

As a Christian, I will say that IF Christianity has failed Nigeria, it is that it has not been able to remove the deep fear and distrust that we seem to have towards each other and to wake people up out of their apathy and know that God has given them the faculties they need to be able to change their situation. I suspect that this is some of the frustrations some atheists here on Nairaland have.
The full has not been spoken about this issue but I submit this post for your consideration.
Stay seeking. Stay thinking. Believe.

Good points made overall. I agree with you for the most parts.

However, have you also noticed that black groups/communities worldwide tend to be the most religious? Could the lack of direction be a result of over-religiousity? Instead of putting in work, we'd rather hope for some divine intervention. That is the utmost loss of direction if you ask me.

About certain individuals being successful regardless of their belief. Very true, most of the time, those individuals took charge of their lives. They worked more and attended church less. They did not subscribe to the "leave it all to Jesus" doctrine. That is besides the point though since we are talking about collective progress here.

This brings me to the unity issue. Religion has also contributed to disunity massively. The evidence can be seen all over the continent and even in the diaspora communities. Few of these divides: Islam vs Christianity, Christianity vs Christianity, believers vs unbelievers, condemned (unbelievers) vs Chosen (believers) light skinned vs darkskinned has its religious roots as well. So, religion has definately not made unity easier. Religion also contributes to the fear and distrust among Afrikans worldwide.

I wholeheartedly agree that religion is easy to blame. Our own first enemies are ourselves (afterall, we are the ones practicing religion). That said, religion is not the only factor responsible for all our problems but it plays a huge part, a fundamental part in the creation of our problems and our inability to solve them.

Horus: In some countries who signed the Convention, the police will refuse to enter the embassy premises even if called, this is why when there was the attack by Nigerian citizens on the Nigerian embassy in Dakar the Senegalese police, was accused of failing to protect the embassy. The police refused to intervene even though they were alerted to the attack.

Ah...I see. But you do know that under the Vienna Convention that you mentioned, states (host states) are responsible for the protection of foreign diplomatic missions (embassies included), right? So, I think in such a situation, particularly a seemingly dangerous one, the Russian police would have to intervene as there is no Nigerian Police force to act in such a situation.

Can't really comment much on the Dakar case because I don't know much about it unfortunately. However, it appears to me that the Senegalese Police was accused of failing to protect the embassy (by Nigeria, I suppose) because they had that responsibility. Except they had a completely different agreement which in that case, Nigeria was being stupid accusing the police.

Horus: I asked this question because I dont know if Russia signed the Convention. Under the terms of the 1961 United Nations Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, embassies remain under the jurisdiction of the nation they represent, meaning that police have no authority within an embassy. The Convention is the cornerstone of international relations, and has been signed by more than 200 countries.

Yes. The point however is that what police force should they have used, if not the Russian police? Also, if the Embassy called the Russian police force to help in the situation, why shouldn't they enter the embassy?

It has been a HUGE fail....

Chatters: Beware! God cannot be mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth that he shall reap.

Why the threat? Is this an integral part of Christianity? Threats?

Wetin be dis? Another stupid movie they expect Nigerians to look forward to.

Come to think of it, I like how christians are called "believers". People who love to believe stuff.

This is definately interesting. It is hard for me to believe it just like that. Questions need to be asked but believers don't ask questions

"There are 3 types of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics" - ?

Only when I'm making a huge purchase or setting up recurring payments. I hardly do it for flimsy things online though.

However, for android apps on the Play Store, I take time to read the level of access to my personal info that I give away by downloading. If the access level is not justified, I refrain from downloading.

damiso: "Act ill' SMH .I know for sure if men were the one who carried babies, the earth's population would have declined by now


No one is saying dont exercise while pregnant in short its very highly recommended as it not only helps you keep fit it makes it easy for you to endure labour.The point is some women are too ill to exercise. Am too lazy to google the name of the condition but if some women are not on bed rest its likely they lose the baby.There are sooo many health complications that arise from pregnancy eg i for one had never had low blood pressure in my life, pre eclampsia(very deadly women DIE from this you know).So pls women dont 'act ill', sometimes they really are.

okay. My bad. Maybe it seemed I generalized. Perhaps, I should be a bit clearer. Of course some are indeed ill and I can appreciate your experience. However, I was talking about those acting. If you've been diagnosed with a pregnancy related illness and advised not to exercise, by all means, you shouldn't.

You're funny. Don't underestimate men lol. You're probably right about men and pregnancy. Our anatomy is not favourable, we don't have hips designed for child birth. Definately, there will be less successful child births if men were get pregnant and go through labour.

Pregnancy is not an illness. It is funny and annoying when women all of a sudden "act" ill when they are pregnant and stop doing what they used to do. Most times, they relax while their husbands do everything for them while they just sit around and get fat.

If you sit around and stop being active cos you're pregnant, it is possible you have more complications while giving birth. Your muscles have been in relax mode for 7 months straight, no exercise or nothing. That cannot be healthy.

Secondly, by the time you give birth, you will be uglier. All the fat will get into your face, legs, arms, neck, fingers and most importantly, your belly. You will end up looking like Papa Ajasco. Then you will complain when your husband does not find you sexy anymore.

You've got to be active while pregnant. I know of at least 2 women who continued their normal lifestyle during pregnancy. One who did not take her maternity leave until 8 months into the pregnancy. The result: healthy women, safe delivery and healthy babies.

This case however, I find a bit extreme but being a crossfit member (these guys don't play), I am sure she is more than used to it. Who knows? Maybe she used to lift heavier weights before. As long as she is not unusually (doing things she's not used to doing) stressing herself, she should be safe. Not sure about 2 weeks to delivery though but I guess she knows better being a mother of 2 already.

A lot of people did not even bother reading the article before commenting? That's actually very silly of you.

The title may "sound" misleading but you will notice that it is in quote which suggests that you SHOULD not conclude based on just the title.

This man seemed to have enjoyed his stay in Nigeria. Just like most white people do (except those unfortunate enough to get kidnapped). It is unfortunate though that most residents don't get to enjoy Nigeria the same way foreigners do.

Fulaman198: Modernization is more like Westernization

You are right. Modernization and Civilization are two words usually (but wrongfully) associated with the West. Both have occurred on many occasions before the advent of westernization.

crackhaus: You're right, I just modified my original post from CIVILIZATION to MODERNIZATION. After reading through what I originally posted, I agreed with you...since civilization has always been in existence, modernization would be a better word referencing the world as it is now.

Ah! I see.

Indeed. Modernization is a "better" term.

Blackteeth: Let African culture die!! Is it not the culture that Africans are practising that made them underdeveloped with poverty, disease and hunger?

lol. I believe poverty, disease and hunger came after we adopted the "civilization" that was meant to "save" us. Think about that for a while.

crackhaus: It's quite difficult to say this, but truth is, the generation of Nigerians born from 1980-present are the ones leaning more towards a westernized form of life. Like someone rightly said, a lot of COCONUTS(brown/black outside, white inside) have been born within this period and they will continue to be.

Then again, if you think of it objectively, Culture is inversely proportional to Civilization. In other words, in predominatly civilized societies world-wide, culture is usually at its least though not completely eliminated.

If there's a possibility in Nigeria that we become a predominatly civilized nation, then Culture will definitely have to take a back seat...that's just the way it is.

We can't choose to stay completely civilized and still want to retain a strong cultural heritage. Countries like Japan, China, and India with a very rich cultural history have been able to balance their need to fit into the modern world while at the same time retaining a bit of their old cultures but we all know where this leaves them in the global ladder of dominance.

And one last point, language is a big problem in Nigeria, just because we have much more ethnicities than I can count, and its not like they even sound alike...this is why to me, I believe that the only universal language in Nigeria is Pidgin.

I hope I made a little bit of sense with this my long talk but the whole point of it regarding this topic is, for a country to become Civilized to a certain extent, its Cultural heritage will have to be relegated to an extent as well.

Good post! However, what is "civilization"? The common term "western civilization" implies that civilization is not exclusively western or European. That said, I think civilization is usually based on core sets of beliefs i.e. culture. There have been many civilizations before this Western model. Modern Western Civilization that is dominating the world today is based on European culture even though parts of that culture is suffering.

doc on air: JESUS has made it simple by saying present your body as a living sacrifice ,pleasing and holy to God.read romans 12 chap 1 to 3

Ok. I understand but this hardly addresses the issue at hand

Its all good, brother

onila: its sad that I wont be able to show and teach my children abt my culture again
I grew up playing with masquerades, going to the village every christmas

the average Nigerian child that grew up in the urban areas cant speak their language any longer

now everything is consider evil

this modern life not sweet at all . .but i have to follow the new world, to be on the safe side

Please allow me to be a a$$hole for just 1 minute.

"Going to the village every Chritmas" is killing Afrikan culture.

Seriously though, I agree with you but I disagree on the playing it safe part. If you really want to raise your children to appreciate Afrikan culture, you can do it. If you don't do it, it is not any other person's fault.

doc on air: u cant understand the things of the spirit if you are not in the spirit.your last statement reveals u belong to satan.JESUS is calling you

Really bro? My last statement in an informed and common sense assumption. Truth is that I am more likely related to those I mentioned than a Biblical character (who are usually depicted with white skin and blue eyes).

So brother, what does the spirit say about the other prohibitions I listed? Say, the taboo of shaving for example. It is in Leviticus also. If you honestly believe that tattoos are forbidden, you should also agree that shaving is forbidden.

This is coming from a brother who does not have any tattoo. As a matter of fact, dislike it.

Millenia: It is Like a phlegm to see Christians Tattoo their Bodies, Mostly some Young girls and others who are in church choirs and who attend churches have tattoo on various places of their Bodies.

It is unfortunate to experience this Abominable act and most of then cannot be blamed because they Think they are actually serving God , But they are not serving hm at all.

A lot of things are happening in Christendom world Today and it relates to the amount of spiritual desolation that has come over churches all in the name of carelessness and pleasure and luxury living.A lot of Christians believe going to church's is being born again and that their heart matters instead of their appearance as the false minister's have also deceived them.

However, Leviticus 21:5 forbids making Incisions and tattooing of of any kind on the body, Unfortunately, people of the world place tattoos of my people they have killed on their bodies, People they have lost or dead relatives and living people.

.DEUTERONOMY 14:1 forbids making such tattoo's or incisions of dead people on the living either for any form of memorial or any form of obeisance. No wonder many Christians run into problems of seeing themselves being chased by dead spirits, bad dreams, nightmares, eating and drinking in the dreams, being used as a slaves and sent strange errands because they have tattooed their skin with various images of animals and people.

The other danger in this practice is That Occultists, satanists, and other evil societies use it to sign and covenant people with The devil, Demons.In other words Incision is the Strongest link Of blood covenant between an Individual and Satan or demon spirits. It Brings About satanic Possession, obsession, depression, retrogression,and oppression.

If such has happened to you in Ignorance, you have a solution and is to Break the covenant with whatever Image and spirit or tattoo you put on your body.If it is the Name of an Individual or demon , pray with Isiaiah 14:28 and break such covenants, or seek Deliverance form the church God directs you to as you pray and ask.

Tattoo is a sign you belong to someone

Excuse me Mr Officer, do you also know that "apparently"

1. "God forbids wearing of garments that consist of linen and wool" (Leviticus 19: 19)- I bet you that what you are wearing right now is mixed fabric. Don't believe me? Look at the label lol
2. "God also forbids shaving your beard" (Leviticus 19: 27&28) - Like the modern day Jews who practice Judaism with sideburns long enough to tie humans up. Ah! It is the same scripture that says you should not have tattoos. Definately, I am certain that you abide by this also and your face looks like big cotton wool or a bird's nest
3. Oh, I thought the beard one was bad. Priests are also not allowed to cut their hair and should not have dreadlocks (Ezekiel 44:20). Seeing as you are preaching God's word here, it is safe to assume you are a priest. You are definately performing priestly duties here. Do you, my brother go to the barber at all? "God doesn't want that!"
4. Usually people who are against tattoos for biblical reasons tend to be against body piercings also. Lets talk nose rings for example. Most christians will say Hell No! (My bad, most will omit the "hell" ). However in Ezekiel 16:12, " And I put a jewel in your nose, earrings in your ears, and a beautiful crown on your head" - God apparently did this himself which means there is nothing wrong with it.

This can continue forever. The hypocrisy christians display is sometimes downright disgusting. I am not accusing you nor do I mean to sound insulting however, my aim is to make you have a rethink. It is silly to isolate a certain part of the scripture to prove doing a certain thing is wrong. This aplies to what I have listed also. If God was talking to the children of Jacob and said they should not do something, it applies to the Children of Jacob only unless otherwise stated don't take it out of the context and put a "one size fits all" label on it. Last time I checked, I am not related to Jacob. I am more likely related to Sango, Oya or Ahmadioha lol.

Truth! Couldn't have said it any better

Good Girl: Where is YOUR OWN ACHIEVEMENT? Can you list YOUR OWN SUCCESSES and ACHIEVEMENTS? YOU cannot ride on the coattail of a fellow countryman and claim that YOU are leading Africans. You seriously have no bragging rights when you cannot list anything YOU have done for yourself, your family and your society. You cannot bask in the glory of a very successful individual and imagine that the glory belongs to you too simply because you share a nationality. Dangote has earned his bragging rights, while you my friend have not. Work hard, work smart, attain a certain level of success then you'll have all the license to brag. Until then, keep your mouth shut, watch keenly and observe how successful men/women make their mark in this world without riding on the coattails of other successful men.
Thank-you.

andyanders: That action has nothing to do with our qualification. FIFA can sanction him by asking him to pay fine and also ban him from for some number of FIFA organized matches,

Thats right, hence I said "ideally".
However, football and their organizing bodies are ridiculous.

Still do. I buy my fav artist's albums whenever I can. I try to support them by putting some change in their pockets. If I download and album, listen to it and I actually enjoy it, I go out to purchase an official copy whenever I can.

Last album purchased: Nneka - Soul is Heavy

fijiano202: First Pls stop writing rubbiish and passing out false information,Secondly most of nairaland users are not illiterate we have access to the internet. Dangote may be the richest in africa but hes not in the top 40 in the world and also Usmanov is richer than him,in reference to the Forbes Magazine,Dangote is ranked at 43 while Usmanov is ranked at 34,pls try to get fully-confirmed details before posting

Lmao! Give the poster a break...he did not write the article himself, I believe. There is a link to the source of the article which the guy gave. All complaints about inaccuracy should be directed to that link. Lol.

He made the comments before the dude's request was rejected, I believe.

Shinatu: I am now convinced that many people cannot make an objective judgment once it is something they are passionate about.
So bananas have been trown in the past, is this particular white guy the one that threw the bananas?
The guy's request was based on a security advice issued by an organised body responsible for doing that and it was just a request!
Which was investigated and rejected, so what is Keshi getting furious about making unneccesary 'agbero' comments?