₦airaland Forum

Workch:
It won’t be a problem if those who believe these fictions are not doing everything to make their fictions the norm.

Look at what’s happening in the United States today, Christians want biblical creationism and intelligent design to be taught science in science class. That’s a Big problem

Christians are spreading conspiracy theories about vaccines etc They get these ideas from the fictional books. This is why it’s important to contain them.
It brews fundamentalism and extremism, we shouldn’t sit back and allow that happen.

That's the problem actually. But I think the solution is education of the masses which is not happening in this part of the world.

If most people in Nigeria have access to good quality education and have their critical faculty skills fully developed, then the problem would be greatly reduced here.

It is not easy to completely indoctrinate anyone who has developed to that extent.

Truvelisback:
Go thief person thing or kill person, make them catch u. Na dat time u go know say karma na kama. By the time u are hanged to death or u spend the rest of ur miserable life in prison, body go tell u.

If dem nor catch u nko?

Workch:
There is a good chance that you might regard it as a comic if you are very rooted in science.

How do you think an astrophysicist/biologist will regard the genesis creation story if he reads the Bible for the first time? Comic relief.

He might like the dictions must the story will be fictional to him. Education Plays a big role

You're correct It contains fiction but to what end?

Dtruthspeaker:
The course was the if there was truly a difference between retribution and karma and you said external agency.

Then by your examples, which you said was karma in operation, I showed you the external agency in them.

So right now you veered off into the internal agent, "What led to the accident? Your actions. And so who is responsible" which is not the issue.

You still don't get it. With karma you know exactly the reason for what you get or what is happening Meaning that whatever effect that comes from the action you take its your own doing

But retribution, you imagine an external force is punishing you for something you did. And you can beg this external agency so you don't continue to suffer..
Karma, you take action to resolve negative karma because you're responsible for what came to you in the first place. It is your own shit which you need to clean up yourself.

Karma empowers you to take action to resolve whatever problem you face in live while retribution disempower you leaving you not knowing what to do.





Karma gives you always the effect of your actions and it is not punishment. Retribution is seen as punishment

Dtruthspeaker:
Now, you have veered off course.

How

Crystyano:
Your comparison of gravity to karma is your problem

What you consider as karma is your cup of poison

I don't need your motivation


Case closed!!!

My apologies

Dtruthspeaker:
You church goers eh! Can you take a right handed car to the mechanic and it still comes back right handed a conversion?

Or a dirty person who enters a bathroom to bathe yet he comes out the same dirty person, a conversion?

My brother, belief is what causes conversion and not conversion, bringing belief.

It is unreasonable to purchase car insurance before you have a car.

Who be church goer? Who tell you say I dey go church?

You car analogy doesn't make sense. Do you as a Christian regard the Koran as inspired by God?
You only regard and accept the Bible is the true word of God after conversion. That is the truth

Workch:
Its not suppose to make sense to them. You don’t get it?

You cannot convince a fanatic from believing bogus stories because he’s aware that if those bogus stories were written outside of the Bible, it won’t make sense it him, he has to believe whatever is in the Bible whether or not it makes sense. That’s why they don’t believe The Flying Spaghetti Monster god thing, because it’s not in the Bible. Disbelieving religious stories is mostly instinctive and influenced by field/type of education one gets.

If you were never a Christian and you suddenly come across the Bible in a place where nothing is know about Christianity, how would have know that it is meant for Christians to arrive at your op?

I think you're going to regard it as beautiful work of literature and not called it nonsense and even try to find some interpretation for the myths


This is my point which you still don't get. You're still viewing the bible as a former believer.

Non believers who read the Bible consider it as a literary masterpiece due to the beautiful poetic expression some of the passage contains. Some even find some element of truth or wisdom in it without regarding it as inspired by God.

That is it. Your bias is too strong

Workch:
An indoctrinated person cannot see it that way because of cognitive dissonance.

He might become logical and reasonable in other areas of life but whenever it comes to his religion, cognitive dissonance with allow reason prevail.

In other words ,it means your op will not make sense to the people I believe it is meant for

Dtruthspeaker:
You said "external agency" and accidents are usually outside and beyond the "car punishing you".

What led to the accident? Your actions. And so who is responsible?

Workch:
Belief is not logic and reason, you can’t be a Christian if you read the Bible with logical and reasoning mind because the Bible in itself contain a lot illogical texts that require you to believe outside the scope of logic and reason. This makes these text unverifiable and hard to accept for any logical person.

A lot of the biblical texts are not consistent with reality

I agree with you. But how would it be possible for the indoctrinated person to see it that way?

People don't read the Bible to get converted. They read and believe it after conversion and by that time they can no longer see the lies

Dtruthspeaker:
But from your examples the accident obtained while drink driving or When you show love to others and they return it you called them karma too and both are from "external agencies"

So you mean when you have an accident your car is punishing you?

As for the other, when it comes to karma, you can see a correlation between what you did and the results. You know your actions led to the love you get in return. For retribution you cannot actually pinpoint what the person did to earn the punishment and even more some person don't get any punishment when you expect it

I think from now onward, I will stop using the word consequence when it comes to explaining karma . The correct word should be effect so that people stop linking it only with something bad .

IMAliyu:
Ok, I guess we may just have different experiences in our lives.

I've seen good people get walked over, and they don't always recover from it.
And some people who perform misdeeds & manage to walk without facing retribution.

(4/4)

What actions did so called good person take to put himself in a position to being walked over? That's is the key to understanding how we create karma with its attendant consequences

IMAliyu:
This I agree with, karma may not be real, but our own actions, the actions of individuals do have consequences especially when scaled up.
We can't all be ok with certain forms of corruption like bribes, or shonting a line and expect to live in an orderly corruption free society
The same way we can't keep voting for incompetent leaders and representatives because of tribal or religious association and expect a better working country.

Karma is just a word used to explain that our actions or works carries consequence.

Most people are using the word wrongly hence the misunderstanding.

You know ,when something negative happens to anyone, people are quick to scream karma as if it is Punishment for what is happening to the person but don't scream karma when the same person experience something good.

So because of this , the public now thinks karma means punishment by an external agency for evil which is not true. The evil you get is the one you bring upon yourself through your own actions

In Nigeria now, we are reaping negative karma , called collective karma, from the actions we took in the past by chosen our current leaders. Whether you voted or not it doesn't matter. We are all responsible

Dtruthspeaker:
See, Google's definition

retribution
/rɛtrɪˈbjuːʃ(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act.

Is there any difference between the 2?

There's a difference. For retribution, it is an external agency that inflicts or is believed to inflict the punishment while for karma you only reap the consequences of your actions nobody is punishing you.

Karma can be erased so you don't get back the effect of what you do.

But for retribution you need to appeal to the external agency for mercy who you may assume is punishing you.

To a larger extent you're always in control when it comes to karma. But only when you have the awareness of what might come from what actions you take

If I know that drinking while driving can results in accident, what I need to do so as not to reap negative karma ,is not to drink . It is as simple ad that

LordReed:
How can karmabe a natural law if not everyone gets retribution for their misdeeds?

Karma is not retribution. I already explained that

Dtruthspeaker:
No, you did not! You are the one trying to fabricate a non existent CHAIN STYLE RETRIBUTION WHICH I DID NOT SAY HAPPENS.

I Only Affirm Natural Retribution Aka Karma As Proven by the cases we have seen in this world. that's all!

Nothing more, nothing less!

Retribution is not karma. Not the same thing.
Karma is the consequences of your actions . It is not punishment from an external agency.

Retribution is the punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for wrong or criminal act.

When you smoke and it effects your health, we say you're have reaped bad karma from your action of smoking .

When you show love to others and they return it , we say you have reaped good karma.

Karma is the consequences of your actions and not an external force or god punishing or rewarding you for what you do.

LordReed:
Have you seen anybody not obey the law of gravity?

Who has seen?

Workch:
Buy a Bible, don’t read it and you will be a Catholic.

Buy a Bible, read only what suits you and you will be come an evangelical Christian.

But a Bible, read it fully, analyze it, reason it, you will never become a Christian. You will discover that the book is utter nonsense and highly unreliable.

Non of the above is completely true.

Anyone who proceeds to read any religious text with the certain believe that it is the true word of God would hardly see any inconsistency. If he finds any, he is sure going to find some way to explain it away. A fully indoctrinated person lacks the capacity to judge a religious text he subscribe to as not true or contains lies. It is not possible. It is what psychological studies has proven. In that state, he can see no error or lies


It is only an outsider to the faith that can easily noticed the inconsistency in it and dwell on it.


To convince anyone to abandon what they do if you consider it nonsense, you must know exactly what they're doing and the exact reason why they're doing it if not nobody would listen to you. You will just be talking to yourself.

Crystyano:
It is you that considers karma as something that means what you say it means

But you are not meant to determine what karma means in this case

As for the 12 laws
They can go to hell because there are many millionaires and billionaires that don't care about them

Is it Angel of BB Naija that is not making money

I have seen that life is about twists and turns

In fact
Reality is about twists and turns

Many people are making money without giving a damn about what you think

Many people live their lives oblivious of the law of gravity . Does it exempt them from its effect? No

So it is my friend. The people you mentioned may be using the law of karma unconsciously the reason they're getting results. Everyone one of us is doing so already.

But it helps to do it consciously so you don't think your live is controlled by luck .knowing that whatever you sow you must surely reap and don't give up midway when things are not going your way

Most successful people you see today went through many tough times before the achieved success. They never gave up. They were certain of success and they achieved it in the end.

You can get whatever you want from life. That's what the law of karma says. Know this and make changes. Nothing can stop you.

It seems you never bothered to go through the link to read those laws. Its your choice to do so or not

NaijaSatanlst:
What do pastors preach? Talking snakes, a global flood, virgin birth and seas dividing. Those are all middle eastern myths, peddled today by pastors as truths. Yes all pastors are scammers.

So I am asking, show me an actual instance where I generalized.

My friend, you generalize. There are well meaning individuals who think they are actually called by God and are using their religion as a vehicle to do good.. They are not popular and also lack the awareness to know if their religion is a lie or not

If you have not met these ones, then I am afraid your life experience is very limited

Crystyano:
You offend someone
Then the person retaliates or something bad happens to you afterwards

Some see it/the retaliation as karma


I see it/the retaliation as something that doesn't happen all the time



Karma is false



If karma is true
Everyone should be getting punished for every offence no matter who they are

Karma is not punishment you get from offending somebody. That's the general misconception most people have.

The word ,karma, is of Sanskrit origin. It simply means "action" "deeds"or "works" and it is used to explain the "spiritual" cycle of cause and effect. Don't allow the word spiritual put you off from trying to understand it. You can see, I put the word spiritual in quotes to let you know there's nothing really spiritual about it .But since it is a knowledge you don't get from going to school, we regard it that way.


Karma means that in life certain actions results in certain consequences. Most can't see the correlation between the actions they take and the ,consequences. But karmic acts surely do results in that.

For instance, if you're overweight and you dont do anything about it, then it won't be long before you start to experience some health challenges which is karma.

The equivalent for this, (karma) in the sciences, is in Newton's law of motion " for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction"

Even though some religious groups from the Orient have made it part of their teachings, the laws of karma is not in any way tied to them and so you shouldn't be in a hurry to dismiss it as religious nonsense.

Without the laws of karma nothing can be achieved or nothing can work in this world. Even Scientific experiments will not be successful.

The law of karma involves 12 laws. knowing these laws and how they actually work, will help to improve the quality of your life especially when you know how to apply them. Not only that , you also get to understand why some persons seem to get away or actually get away from the "things" they do.

There are no gods doling out Karna neither is it punishment for evil. It is the consequence of your actions good or bad. If you have a lot of bad karma, there a ways to clean it up so you dont experience the consequences. You're the only person that can resolve your karma.

There are certain religious groups who deceptively use an aspect of this law to recruit new members. They tell you that the reason you're having a hard time in live is because of your past misdeeds ,which may be true actually, and then go on to threaten you that unless you join them your karma cannot be resolved meaning you continue to suffer. But it is lie. These are the people I am sure you have been listening to.

There's no one out there who has been given the sole responsibility of resolving your karmic deeds. The emphasis is always on the negative aspect of it. If karma is for both good and bad ,why not place equal emphasis on both?

The link below would help you understand better the 12 laws of karma and how to apply them.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wellandgood.com/12-laws-of-karma/amp/

MaxInDHouse:
The real wrong that's killing the world today is racism and politics, JWs have cured their members from that. If it's about the other minor cases, mankind can still cope with it in peace!

You said Jw members can never manisfest any evil thoughts in their heads which makes them distinct from everyone else.


Why have you abandoned that?

If you think child molestation is not evil, then you can continue. Goodluck

[quote author=macAB post=106988507][/quote]@macAB

Make sure you already cleared those doubts before abandoning the religion of your birth

It is very important you do that, if not when you leave just like that those doubts would continue to come up but this time in disguise and your mind then become a battle ground of conflicting thoughts which you may not be able to handle alone.

It is not easy thing to abandon the religion you were born into. Some persons can assume they are free from it but not being aware that at the subconscious level they still strongly tied it. And this can create many problems that may be difficult to manage except through professional help. .

You could find yourself struggling with the feeling from time to time that you're two persons in one. That's a split personality syndrome which is a form of mental illness and those close to you can sense all is not well with you.
The reason why this can happen is that there still exist some deeply embedded beliefs in your subconscious mind that's still running at the background .

Those who don't know what is happening at this time, would run back to the religion they have abandoned or sadly end it in suicide believing they are losing their minds.. I have friends who have gone back to the same religion they abandoned and condemned as not good. This happens all the time




So my friend be yourself . Don't try to imitate anyone. Know exactly what you're doing before making the decision to quit

And in case you don't know it's not easy living your life as a non religious person in this part of the world you will be hounded on all sides by people around you and this can impact on your mental health.

You need people around you to succeed but when you try to separate yourself prematurely , then it can be become difficult for you.

My advise is you just play along until you can stand alone without depending on anyone.

MaxInDHouse:
You're deceiving yourself!
There are people who committed suicide just because their boyfriend or girlfriend gilted them so does that equates jilting with murder?
Guy in this life we live with so much troubles everyday, the thief that comes to rob you is a million times better off than the assassin whose only intention is to take your life. You may continue to argue this but when you're faced with such a situation you'll pray that you are robbed, raped and molested a million times than for your life to be taken!

So stop deceiving yourself!

You're the one deceiving yourself. You're just
battling to crawl out from the hole which you dug and fell into.

You claim your group members cannot commit any kind of evil whatsoever. Meaning they can do know wrong . That was how we started.

Why running away now that I brought up the issue of child molestation within your organization?

Is that not a manifestation of evil within your sect?

It's high time you accepted that no organization has perfect members. It is not possible and there's no individual that can do no wrong. If you knew this , then the shameless attempt to whitewash your organization in order to maintain its reputation would not be necessary.

Every right thinking person knows that nothing is perfect in this world

Jw members are not saints that can do no wrong. Stop the self deceit.

I hope when one of your daughters is caught in the same thing, you counsel her it is not evil since she wasn't killed. Abi ?

MaxInDHouse:
Do you think someone who molested a child under his/her care is the same as one who just want you dead?
I'm not saying molestation of minors is good but it is nothing compared to killing people for not being a certain race or political party.
So if you're mixing things together know now that pedophiles live in the human society and they hide while doing it which means their conscience is still active somehow but killers strongly believe you don't worth living!

You're the one mixing things up. You're in denial and only interested in defending your organization no matter what.

An adult molesting a child repeatedly is evil. Don't get it twisted and downplay it because it affects some elders in your organization.

Well, atleast contrary to your initial position you have accepted without realizing it that your members can also manifest the evil thoughts in their heads. Maybe you don't even know the meaning of the word evil. Go and learn the meaning so you can argue better

Child molestation can be worst than killing someone. Some victims have been known to commit suicide and others finding it difficult to live a normal life.


https://www.iicsa.org.uk/reports-recommendations/publications/inquiry/interim/nature-effects-child-sexual-abuse/effects-child-sexual-abuse

MaxInDHouse:
Evil that's spelt out is KILLING people not sex drive my friend, you talk of pedophiles as if it's not happening in all human society.
Even a religion legalized infant marriage so can you go and stop them from marrying underage children?
We are talking about people killing people!
70% of people today were molested one time or another during their adolescence yet they're still alive today and doing fine in the society can you compare them to dead people?
So instead of mixing up too many things all at a time why not concentrate on the real evil, the cause of killing in the human society?

You and I have not talked about any kind of evil before now

Our conversation is centered on you boasting that your members, unlike the rest of us (atheist / agnostics) are a special breed of people who will never manisfest any evil thoughts raging in their heads. That is it.

why trying to move it away from that?

So you don't see it as evil an elder in your organization molesting a minor under his care simply because the same people whom you regard as lost are also doing the same thing?

Honestly, this is disapointing coming from an elderly person like you who may even have a daughter under his care.

It would have been better you didn't reply at all. You're embarrassing your organization..

Next time reread what you typed before clicking the submit button.

Whether you agree or not. JW members are not special or have absolute control over their thoughts. It is indoctrination that makes you think so

Hismasterpiece:
Lol.. i'm not on the verge of abandoning my beliefs ooo.. i have seen enough to never be an atheist.. i may not be able to prove God but based on experiences of the supernatural i can confidently say that there are people among us that we cannot see.. i am a firm believer in the spiritual.. don't get it twisted

Then why bother about the attitude of some atheist towards you?

Doesn't it signify that you're starting to show some kind of sympathy towards what they are doing and want them to do it the right way?

It's what I can see.

MaxInDHouse:
So it's the same thing both have evil thoughts but one will never carry it out no matter what happens while the other is looking for the best opportunity to carry out what he has in mind!

You said your members will never carry out evil thoughts in their heads. So what happened when some of your leaders where caught molesting minors under their care and even trying to shield them from prosecution?

LordReed:
I agree with you it's unfair to mock people for just being religious adherents but people usually need to work some things out of their system. The "angry atheist" phase is a transition phase quite a bit of us go through.

Exactly.

Dtruthspeaker:
Liar! You always insult me FIRST when I say what you do not like and then I respond back!

So it is you exactly as many of your kind do, who are ALWAYS UNREASONABLE AND CHANGING POST and when all these fail, Insults follow!

See example here


Proof!

My friend, abeg park well.

Your own naim worse pass. You , na so so opata you dey yarn

Just shift go one side

LordReed:
I have never mocked Hismasterpiece, our conversations have always been respectful. It is people like Dtruthspeaker who refuse to be reasonable in discussion I have a bone or 2 to pick with from time to time, as you can already see above.

Honestly, you're not really part of it unlike some who seems to have gone on overdrive. Nearly every response is laced with snide remarks and insults. It is those kind of people I am worried about.

Everyone as an ego to protect and if at times we respond in kind to insults and harassment coming from the other side, we shouldn't be blamed. But when it is uncalled for, then one has to look at himself

The fight to me is unfair and not necessary