₦airaland Forum

BARRISTERS: @frosbel



good boy!

with the bolded above, you admitted that jesus actually (at a point in time) was made a little lower than the angels.

next,

1,was that an insult to GOD?

qualification issue

2,At that point when jesus was made lower than the angels, [/b]considering that his rank as at that point in time, while on earth(in lower rank than angels),[b] can you say that 'jesus is qualified' as in lower rank than the angels (which you admmitted)to reddeem the world?

considering the fact that you have earlier base an argument (in the 1st page) on qualification.

who is more qualified now [b]'qualificationwise' [/b]angels or jesus, simple answer pls just pick one.

dont disappoint me pls, other honesthearted are watching!

BARRISTERS: @frosbel



good boy!

with the bolded above, you admitted that jesus actually (at a point in time) was made a little lower than the angels.

next,

1,was that an insult to GOD?

qualification issue

2,At that point when jesus was made lower than the angels, [/b]considering that his rank as at that point in time, while on earth(in lower rank than angels),[b] can you say that 'jesus is qualified' as in lower rank than the angels (which you admmitted)to reddeem the world?

considering the fact that you have earlier base an argument (in the 1st page) on qualification.

who is more qualified now [b]'qualificationwise' [/b]angels or jesus, simple answer pls just pick one.

dont disappoint me pls, other honesthearted are watching!

plappville: If Jesus existed as God then the bible or you have some problem here? No man Has See God in anyway, then Who is the captain of God's host that Joshua worshipped?
Don't tell me that Joshua saw Yahweh Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
Take a look at the scripture in contradicting what you wrote up there!

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11.


As you can see, It was the Spirit of Christ that has always communicating with the prophets of old. So, if the Spirit of Christ had inspired the prophets of the OT,
then it makes very good sense to say that Joshua talked to Jesus. After all, Jesus is the word of God! Jesus has been the one who has communicated with man. This is why
"No one has seen God at any time". You cannot say that God is two are you? Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Again, Who is this Angel: Behold, I (Yahweh)send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. Exodus 23:20-21

Lets see what Now Paul just comes out to tells who this Angel is: Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.

Now Let's go to Exodus and find specifically who it is that Paul is referring to, Take good note of the Italic and bold:

And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night.
Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided.
So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.
And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all PharaohÕs horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the LORD looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians. Exodus 14:19-24. What does this three passages teaches? are they talking of same event or not? and who is this Angel? I have more chapters to present but i would like yoy tp help us with this once first. Thank you.

frosbel: Again my sister you are doing exactly what you accuse the Trinitarians of doing which is to assume that what you believe is in scripture , though it is not explicitly stated.

You cannot assume a doctrine, it is either in the bible as fact or it is not.

Show me in the bible where JESUS Christ or his apostles called him an angel ,or better still , show me in the OT where the prophets prophesied that angel Michael will incarnate as Christ.

Be careful of holding onto the doctrine of institutions . Think for yourself , do not allow others think for you, read your bible and examine the facts.

Angel worship is a serious sin in the eyes of GOD and not to be trifled with.

Jesus Christ has been made better than ALL the angels including Michael.

My belief is that Jesus will appear with his mighty angels and angel Michael will be one of them.

Please do not tie your beliefs to JW, SDA, Deeper life or whatever , tie them to the bible.

BARRISTERS: @Malawian

you see the bolded above at the beggining of your post? that is the flaw that knocked all your post down! like statistics,a wrong piece of data will definately affect the result,no matter how rigourous you have work,until it is corrected, see the flaw again ''although this term is not used in canonical texts'' we deal exclusively with the sacred scriptures, and not pagan scriptures, and that is the tonic that has sustained the tread till this page(15).

only if you can work within the constitution of 'only the sacred scriptures', then we can discuss and make the tread more imformative! thanks for your time.

Malawian: Introduction to the Angels



Since ancient times the Angels have been venerated with great respect. With the rise of New Age and Occultism comes an urgent need to understand these celestial benefactors in the light of our Catholic faith and tradition.

Angels are pure spirits, sinless servants of God. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to minister for them who shall receive the inheritance of salvation?" Heb. 1:13-14. The Angels are comprised of 9 choirs; Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Powers, Virtues, Principalities, Archangels and Angels. Particularly powerful are the 7 great Archangels spoken of in Apoc VIII:2 "And I saw 7 Angels standing in the presence of God".

When Luciel (Bearer of Light) rebelled against God and became Lucifer (Prince of Darkness) one entire choir of angels followed him and was lost. Many angels from other choirs also followed him in his rebellion. "And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought, and his angels: And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." Apoc 12:7-9

7 angels from the second lowest choir were so outraged by the terrible offense to the dignity of the Most High they positioned themselves between the Throne of God and the infernal offenders, prepared to defend the honor and dignity of God, in spite of their inferiority to Lucifer and his legions. God was so moved by their heroic love he elevated them, enriching them with many new gifts and graces. So lofty was their new office that they were given the privilege of standing eternally before the Throne of God to carry out the Divine Will. "And from the throne proceeded lightnings and voices and thunders; and there were seven lamps burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God." Apoc 4:5. "Bless the Lord all ye His angels: you that are mighty in strength and execute His word, hearkening to the voice of His orders." Ps 102:20

The names of the 3 most commonly invoked Archangels, St. Michael, St. Raphael and St. Gabriel are found in Sacred Scripture. Unlike sects tied to a Bible-only understanding of God and creation we have sacred tradition, the writings of the saints and private revelation to expand our understanding and enlighten us.

In 1050 St. Celias made an exhaustive study of the approved writings of the Early Church Fathers up to the 4th century. In this way we have come to know the names of all 7 of these mighty Archangels, the meaning of their names and the sacrament each is patron of.

Since the 4th century these 7 Archangels have been honored in the Roman Martyrology. In Mettenheim Bavaria is the Catholic Church dedicated to the Seven Great Archangels. It is now over 250 years old. On the 18th of October 1720, this church was dedicated. Each of the 7 Archangels was mentioned by name in the consecration prayer by Rev. Franz Wagensberg, Bishop of Salzberg. Inside the church are 7 altars, each dedicated to one of the Archangels with a statue of the Archangel it was dedicated to. The dedication by a legitimate Catholic Bishop is additional proof of the correctness of the names and an encouragement to active devotion to these angels!

Pope Pius V said in his Bull to the Spanish Clergy, permitting and encouraging the worship of the seven archangels: "One cannot exalt too much these seven rectors of the world, figured by the seven planets, as it is consoling to our century to witness by the grace of God the cult of these seven ardent lights, and of these seven stars reassuming all its luster in the Christian republic." (Les Sept Esprits et l'Histoire de leur Culte; De Mirville's 2nd memoir addressed to the academy. Vol. II. p. 358.)

Michelangelo was ordered to adorn the church dedicated to Mary and the Seven Archangels, with a fresco of 7 Archangels on the altar, in Rome in the 16th century. In addition, the liturgy to Seven Archangels has been confirmed and was still in use around 1800 and has not been abolished, only it is not being practiced.

Below is the fresco of Mary amidst the Seven Archangels, in St Maria Degli Angeli in Rome from the web page: http://www.santamariadegliangeliroma.it.
Originally, during the reign of Pope Gregor XIII it was intended to build seven separate chapels there, dedicated to each of the Seven Archangels.

Malawian: yeah, under the orders of Jesus. energy minister wanted to be president and got fired. micheal merely enforced his sack order.

pastormustwacc: ^^^it was angel michael that fired him out of heaven. Now i wonder the timeline Jesus was talking about when he said he saw satan fall like lightening. . .

Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Was he talking of present, past or future (in revelations).

Malawian: one more thing, lucifer was an arch. he was the bringer of light, probably "energy minister" of cos , Jesus fired him just like obasanjo fired a lot of energy ministers.

Malawian: pls, archs are nothing but special ministers of God. like you have minister of defence, minister of information, etc. there are seven archs. micheal is an arch, so is rapheal, gabriel, uriel and three others i can remember now. if not for the book of tobit, we wouldnt even have known about rapheal. it probably is those seven archs that are called the seven spirits of God. Jesus christ is God. the physical embodiment of God. now to my own understanding, since we are made in the image and likeness of God, i say the form is non other than the body, soul and spirit. while jesus is the body, the holy spirit is the spirit whhile the father is the soul.

free123: Mr Barrister
i dont know why u see me as a catholic
for the records, i am not a catholic and i do not believe in purgatory or praying for the dead. i do not worship under any denomination whatsoever as that is division in the body of Christ - which i know JW actively participate in.

be that as it may, i recognize any part of the bible that any organization gets rights. just as in the case of tithes that JW got right but other falsehood from JW, i stay clear off.

Reference this when u talk to me about ur lies.

musKeeto: Revelations 20


Would like to know Christian views on what these Books are and their purpose..
Also, does God suffer from memory loss? Why would HE need a book?

obadiah777: which kind english language be this ? did you graduate from kindergarten school ? lol. you sound r-etarded. no wonder you cant understand scriptures.

musKeeto: And what happens to the trees?

peterugoobi: Pick up a copy of glories of Mary, you can find it in any catholic bookshop and go through evidences about mary, from even non-christains

frosbel: But MAN was also made a little lower than the angels , no ?

Is he then an angel by implication ?

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little[a] lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.” - Hebrews 2:7-8


Jesus Christ is not an angel or the second person of any trinity, he is who he says he is and who the apostles confirmed that he is.

Jesus never said he was once angel Michael and neither did the apostles.

Jesus never said he was the second person of a bogus trinity and neither did his apostles think he was.


Let us examine words used by both Christ and the apostles to define him, not made up theories that are at best assumptions based not on fact but wishful thinking.

JOHN 4:25-26 NKJ
25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."
26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."


JOHN 10:36 NKJ
36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'?

JOHN 17:1-2 NKJ
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.


"Then he asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Peter replied, "You are the Messiah." - Mark 8:29

" We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God. " - John 6:69

"Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel." - John 1:49

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1 Timothy 2:5




Jesus Christ was not , is not and will never be angel Michael , two totally and different beings.


Titles used :

1. Son of GOD
2. Son of MAN
3. Messiah
4. Christ
5. Holy One
6. MAN Jesus the mediator between God and MAN

frosbel: [size=16pt]“…to which one of the angels did he ever say: ‘You are my Son’” (Heb. 1:5).[/size]

advocate666: So if I tell you that the day you drink poison you will surely die, you will understand that to mean that you will live forever until you drink poison?

As you claim to know even that which your god did not say, tell me, if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten that fruit and multipled as god told them, would their offsprings die or will the non-death gene be transfered to everybody?

advocate666: So if I tell you that the day you drink poison you will surely die, you will understand that to mean that you will live forever until you drink poison?

As you claim to know even that which your god did not say, tell me, if Adam and Eve hadn't eaten that fruit and multipled as god told them, would their offsprings die or will the non-death gene be transfered to everybody?

advocate666: So if I tell you that the day you drink poison you will surely die, you will understand that to mean that you will live forever until you drink poison?

JeSoul: I'm sorry fellas I had to hide your posts. As Muskeeto said this thread is supposed to be a fun, reference library thread - not a debating ground. So please keep the banter light, short & sweet if you must post 'off-topic' here. Thanks and cheers.

true2god: That is the issue, any1 dat goes against JW's lies is a catholic. Even if an atheist goes against JW lies he is a catholic.

Is it logical?

true2god: U dnt seem to have any response, i wonder hw u will comport ursef next time wen telling ur 'prospects' dat ur JW Jesus is angel michael. I want to believe u will do a better 'research' independent of some lies being fed frm watchtower magazines.

BARRISTERS: @true2God
not even one bible quoted but whining and whining and whining Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah;

free123: Barrister
only a cultist will defend lies from his master - JW. False prophecies/predictions have been one of the hallmarks of JW, Lies and boastings, claims upon claims - no organisation read the bible more than we do, no organisation practise christianity more than we, christiendom is evil, we are the most hated, dont touch blood (while their prophets use drugs made from human blood) etc. Lies have been part of you. Shame will be urs when watchtower wakes up tomorrow and reviews its stand on some issues

free123: Barrister
only a cultist will defend lies from his master - JW. False prophecies/predictions have been one of the hallmarks of JW, Lies and boastings, claims upon claims - no organisation read the bible more than we do, no organisation practise christianity more than we, christiendom is evil, we are the most hated, dont touch blood (while their prophets use drugs made from human blood) etc. Lies have been part of you. Shame will be urs when watchtower wakes up tomorrow and reviews its stand on some issues

true2god: All the long post by Barrister is to support the apologetic watch-tower of which they are trademarked with, changin doctrines yr after yr calin it 'light is gettin brighter' and an educated mind will buy dis fallacy. Tufiakwa! God forbid.

This 'arch angel michael' falacy was not even associated with their foundin fathers, either Russel or Rutherford (dat does not however exonorate them as master Bible twister to support their devilsh doctrines).

The book of Hebrew chapter one is enof to nullify all watchtower lies wrt this topic. Arch-angel is still an angel. To the Jw Jesus christ is an angel, pure and simple. And going by Jw doctrine, God did not create anything but Jesus (or arch angel michael accordong to Jw), an arch angel michael created all other things (accordin to jw). Invariably, accordin to watchtower, it was arch angel Mivhael that created angel Gabriel and all other angels. Angel Michael also created the heaven and the earth, acccordin to jw theology, since God did not create anything but the son.

I am highly disapointed dat someone, presumably informed, will be fed will lies and he wil swallow it hook, line and sinker and will even go ahead defending lies.

As i posted earlier, Jw belongs to the category of mormonism, eckanker, the grail messenger, the christian science, and some other occult group portrayin themselves as xtains.

Any organization that does not believe in the atonement of sin through the shed blood of christ, that christ is the savior of mankind from sin, that christ (not watchtower org) is the only mediator between mankind (and not 144,000 pple as taught by watchtower) and God , that all angels are commanded to worship the son (jesus, cos even men are not to worship angels, let alone angels worshipping angel). That organization is watchtower.

Anyone can continue worshiping or adoring or paying obeisance (according to new world translation) to arch angel Michael. Surely watchtower arch angel Michael is not the christian Jesus. That shows that watchtower is servin another master quite diffenrnt frm Jesus.