₦airaland Forum

caseless: Nice one!!
The writer is an atheist, i hope he/she did not condemn nigerians when we refused to accept homosexual , which is a western culture and against our african culture. I know most atheists and TAR member e.g soyinka supports gay right even as it is un-african.

Questions:

Why is homosexuality the only aspect you chose to highlight?

Some atheists reject homosexuality too, so why single out the author as being atheist?

Rejection of the homosexual lifestyle is one thing, but how sure are you that homosexuality is a product of Western culture, rather than just another aspect of African culture - however hidden?

Abortion is one of the most controversial global topics – not least in Nigeria.

The decision to have an abortion is for a variety of personal reasons – sometimes the woman is not prepared to care for a child or simply does not have the money.

However, some women would rather have an illegitimate child than face the disgrace of an abortion. It is therefore a delicate subject but there are judgmental opinions on both sides of the argument.

Many Nigerians publicly believe abortion is against their religion.

Perhaps surprisingly, many women themselves would not have an abortion when it comes to a rape case.

But privately people may act otherwise, especially if the circumstances are not so straight-forward.

Where do YOU stand?

Are you FOR or AGAINST abortion?

nairamaverick: nice article

Your thoughts?

Unibenstudent: Do they even marry in overseas

Yes, people marry overseas.

MissSlimbody: Make babies wit a boyfriend

No way :-/

AGREED!!!

Risky business!

Nigerians And Their Blind Imitation Of Western Cultures And Values
by Sabella Ogbobode Abidde

There are others, but three subject matters that habitually become part of the public discourse are religion, ethnicity, and culture. Religion, like ethnicity, can be very sensitive. As an atheist, and as someone to whom ethnicity is inconsequential, I shall vacate both subjects and instead dwell on culture.

Let me say, here and now, that ethnicity, onto itself is good. It only becomes poisonous and insidious when elites or groups of individuals manipulate it. Insofar as religion goes, it seems everyone around me is a born-again of some sort. Declaration of religious or spiritual belief, piousness, and closeness to Jesus Christ and to God seems to be the litmus test of their humanity.

One of the most exciting things about culture is that it is dynamic. It evolves. It transmutes. It is what meshes a society and gives it meaning. But above all else, it helps society transmit memory from one generation to another; it is the vehicle through which we study the past, absorb the present, and glean the future. In terms of definition, the concept is expansive, hence, one means it here to specify a “belief and behavioral system and patterns, shared attitudes and values that are central to a people or groups of people.”

And especially for those who conduct their daily lives in agrarian societies like Nigeria, culture -- the Nigerian culture -- seems embedded in their everyday lives and vocabulary. For instance, most Nigerians, as I have come to observe them, make frequent references to culture. In other words, other than the obsessive reference to God, to Jesus, or to money, Nigerians tend to invoke culture a lot.

In spite of my earlier attempt at providing a definition, we all seem to know what we or others mean when “culture” is mentioned. Assuming this assumption is true, I wonder why we seem not to be vigorously promoting our culture and cultural heritage; why we seem to condemn or shun it; and why we seem to imitate -- in a wholesale manner -- the western culture? Yes, it is true that all living cultures anywhere in the world have a way of affecting other cultures; but must Nigerians neglect theirs? What seems true of the typical Nigerian seems true of the typical African: they neglect their cultures, while embracing other cultures.

All Africans seem to have done, or seem to be doing, is to copy and imitate the West, especially the United States and Britain. Like parrots, we imitate without understanding why the west acts and or live their lives in certain ways. We imitate ideas, social scripts, fashion, and arts and culture so much so. we are steadily becoming a shell of our former selves.

Who are we?

What does it mean to be a Nigerian or African?

No one seems to know anymore as our humanity and our essence and our way of life seems to be eroding at a rapid pace. I am all for change, but change must be meaningful, beneficial, and enriching.

Not too long ago, I had the privilege of watching/listening to an instructive and intelligently produced documentary, “ORIKI," by Femi Odugbemi. It is done in four parts. You don’t find too many of such intellectual accomplishments that center on the African/Yoruba culture. And you need not be a Yoruba, or one who understands the language, to truly appreciate Mr. Odugbemi’s work. You come away with many lessons; but one of such lessons is that some Africans are now becoming effective tools with which the African culture is being supplanted and deracinated.

There are those who strenuously condemn the Traditional African Religion (TAR) and culture. And they do so in all ignorance, forgetting that long before Islam and Christianity came along, the Africans had been religiously and spiritually faithful. Especially amongst the Yoruba, it is not uncommon to see individuals or groups of persons, forsake their family/surnames simply because such names have roots in TAR: Fadeyi, Ifagbemi, Fajebe, Fajemirokun, Falola, Osanyingbemi, Ifabumuyi, Fadahunsi, Fafunwa, Fadeinde, Fadipe, etc. This ungodly phenomenon seems to have begun in the 1980’s when the Pentecostal sect became the rave and the craze in Nigeria.

The irony is that none of the major religions of the world -- Confucianism, Taoism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, and TAR -- teaches one to forsake his or her cultural heritage. But somehow, adherents of Pentecostalism in Nigeria have taken it upon themselves to exorcise those values, ideals, beliefs and phenomenon that are truly African.

To be African is to be backward and untouched by the wind of westernization and modernity. Yet, thousands of years before the West or the East, Africa was the canter of the universe, the beginning of mankind, and the source for all living things. Today Africans are relegated to the backwater of humanity.

Now, it is possible that my observations are wholly incorrect or slightly skewed. Even so, I am taking the liberty to make public just a few of the things I have observed as I traversed Nigeria.

FIRST, in virtually all Nigerian movies -- the Nollywood movies -- you, for the most part, hear men and women who speak in convoluted voices: accents that are not Nigerian nor American, British, or of any decent society. Whose culture or accent are they trying to imitate? You have actors and actresses, most of who have never been outside of the Nigerian border, act and speak as though they are from the prehistoric era.

SECOND, when did it become fashionable to imitate frivolity or silliness? The Nollywood characters are not alone in this regard. You also have the television and radio newscasters, the radio disc jockey (DJ), announcers at the airport, and many others who seem to speak through their noses. Perhaps, by so speaking, the everyday Nigerian and listeners might think they are special, unique. What do you suppose the American, the Canadian and the British audience would think, if their newscasters and public service announcers started sounding like Mauritanians, Senegalese, or Ugandans?

THIRD, you now have women – very many women – who wear wigs, clip-on hair, fake nails, fake eyelashes, and stenciled eyebrows. You see forty, fifty or fifty-plus year old women with shiny and slick synthetic hair. Where is the natural hair? Where has the grey hair gone? There is something beautiful, radiant and sophisticated about women who look their age. At the extreme are women with breast implants and or silicone buttocks. Not to be outdone, old and older men are now coloring their grey hair, too.

FOURTH, we now see fifty-plus year old men pathetically struggling to hide their true age. Men and women now struggle to cover what they should otherwise be celebrating. What’s next? Cheek and lip implants, liposuction, nipple, clitoris and scrotum piercing? Everything African is bad; but everything Western -- no matter how horrific -- is both good and elegant. Oh well, with time, Africans will imitate the aforelisted and many other procedures, too.

FIFTH, in the near future, old-peoples-home (nursing homes) may become the norm in Nigeria (as opposed to children taking care of their aged parents). The West is replete with such holding-cells. But before you know it, Nigerians will begin to think these gallows are godly and necessary and practical, and would start dumping their mothers and fathers and aunts and uncles there. We may dump them there and then send cards and flowers every so often.

Oh heavens, have you seen some of those fashion shows that are organized in Lagos or Abuja? Models, on the runway or catwalk are dressed like extraterrestrial beings. At parties, and at other social functions, you see men and women dressed in ways that offends decency, commonsense and good sense.

Not to be outdone, some university students dress as if they work for brothels in Las Vegas. And finally, respect for elders and the elderly is slowly eroding. In Lagos or in western Nigeria for instance, when was the last time you saw a young man prostrate for an elder; or a young woman kneel or the grownups? Today, it is mostly “hi” and “hello” and “how you doin” with heads grudgingly bowed, if at all.

Certain aspects of the Western culture are good and may be copied. Also, certain aspects of the African/Nigerian culture can be limiting and oppressive. Nevertheless, it is shocking to see some Africans abandon, in whole scale, their Africanness. This rejection manifests itself in ways that are disgraceful, embarrassing and appalling.

Now, before I sign off, allow me to make a confession: Maybe I am lost or stuck in the 18th century. Maybe I am oblivious to the changes that are now taking place in and around the country. Maybe I am resisting modernity and globalization. Maybe I am just too old to adapt to all the changes that are going on around me. Maybe!

Change is good.

But really, some of the changes I see are worth spitting on.

Source: saharareporters.com

Nigeria: Menace of Campus S*x Trade
By Blessing Undoidi

The growing rate of campus s*x trade in our tertiary institutions is becoming a cause for concern. It is no longer news that politicians, lawmakers, businessmen and other well-placed men in the society are the major people patronizing female students . When you visit female hostels at night, you will be amazed at the kind of flashy cars that come to pick up these young undergraduates for one function or the other. This is pathetic for this nation and its people. The same set of misguided leaders that have thrown the parents of these students into abject poverty, are the same ones destroying their children; because they control the means of survival and social status.

A student involved in the 'trade' who doesn't want her name in print said she is not happy doing it. She said people including the wide array of men who patronize her see her as immoral and indecent. "I was molested by five men when I was just 16 years old and in my final year in secondary school, so it affected me psychologically and the incident contributed to what I am today. I am also the first child of my parent's eight children. I need to struggle and sponsor myself in school and also help sponsor my younger ones because my parents are poor. So I do this to survive."

Another student in an interview with this writer said almost all tertiary institutions, either public or privately owned, have a representation of women of easy virtue. She said many female students are brazenly joining the train. "They are increasing on a daily basis because the ladies are being encouraged and initiated by their friends, added with an inordinate desire for affluence. Religious teachings, scourge of HIV/AIDS and ritual killers that find easy prey among s*x workers has not been able to curb the rising trend of the practice."

She said there is no doubt that the s*x trade, in the long run, corrupts the quality of the nation's future leaders and affects their values. Understanding that young females constitute an appreciable percentage of the nation's population, little could be expected from them, productively, if they have been turned into 'cheap se*ual machines' with warped self-esteem and self-actualization.

Commenting on the issue, a lawyer, Terver Loius Abagen, said campus s*x trade is the business of having s*x for money by female students. "This type of immorality is certainly not a new thing. The history of this type of immorality can be likened to the history of mankind, because every civilization has practiced it. Modern persons continue to patronize s*x workers. Even the name has now changed to "commercial s*x workers", in an attempt to lessen the stigma of the women who practice this trade.

"Notable people all over the country are known to patronize s*x workers, which is the major reason why the business continues to thrive in spite of global criticisms against it. Many of the big men in our society, who patronize them, do so discreetly and urge them to keep it up while coming to the open to fight for bills on why s*x workers should keep off the streets, and this profession is likely to equal the world oil market in the nearest future," he said.

According to him, several attempts have been made to curb the s*x trade through the Penal Code in Section 34 which states, 'Right to Dignity of human person. Every individual is entitled to respect for dignity of his person and accordingly - a) No person shall be subjected to torture or inhuman degrading treatment'. It should be noted that the s*x trade can be one of the elements of degradation. Also in State Law it says, they can be arrested and given two years imprisonment and can be charged with the fine of N20,000.

He said many arrests have been made in the past, especially with the help of Civil Societies, "but the Nigerian society has failed to arrive at a consensus on how to legally handle this blooming profession. While some people prefer that it be outlawed, others have sympathetically justified the profession on the bad economy of the country and feel that outlawing the s*x trade will further victimize the victims, so there is confusion on what steps to take to reduce the s*x trade."

He advised that the campus s*x trade can be stopped or reduced, if tertiary institutions can make laws to prohibit the practice on the campuses, arrest anybody caught in the act and, hand them over to the appropriate authorities for prosecution. He said, if these laws are put in place, it will pose a threat to others intending to venture into such a business within the campus environment and the country at large.

Barrister Abagen stressed that the parents also have a significant role to play in stopping or reducing the s*x trade on campuses. He enjoined parents to teach their children good morals from home. "They should also strive to meet the needs of their children in school. Many parents don't have time to check on their children and know what they are doing with their lives. They are carried away with their jobs, family problems and their financial challenges."

"The government is also not helping matters with the rate of unemployment in the country and the high cost of attaining higher education. The government should improve funding of the education sector in order to drastically reduce the cost of attaining higher education in the country," he advised.

Related Video -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD7lgHrG0pE

15 Celebrities Who Were Smart Enough To Leave Their Men
By Deron Dalton

With the drama between Apollo Nida and estranged wife Phaedra Parks, MadameNoire complied a list of 15 celebrities who left their men for cheating, lies and schemes. These ladies were fed up with it all and decided to move on with their lives.

1. Phaedra Parks

Apollo Nida was upset with Parks for not showing up at his sentencing. “She didn’t even turn up for the f****** sentencing,” he said. But when a woman’s fed up, she’s gone. And that’s exactly what happened. It doesn’t seem like their marriage will be able to last the eight years he’ll spend in prison for identity theft and fraud. But regardless of what advice Parks gets, she seems to have made up her mind that their marriage is done. She’s busy trying to take care of herself and two sons and with her book, Secrets of the Southern Belle.

2. Andrea Kelly

Poor Andrea Kelly! She fell in love quick and got divorced even quicker! She thought she was blessed with a God-fearing man Brian McKee. But he was just another liar and cheater. She found out he hit up other women for money. He blamed, “Hollywood Exes” for the split, but it’s definitely his cheating ways that caused the divorce. Ironically her ex-husband R. Kelly wrote and performed the song, “When a Woman’s Fed Up.”

3. Sandra Bullock

How dare Jesse James cheat on Sandra Bullock? She had just won her Oscar for “The Blind Side” when he cheated with a stripper who had “pray for us sinners” tattooed on her forehead. James needed a tattoo on his forehead reading, “Dummy.” Nevertheless, Bullock divorced James and moved on. Although, he kept cheating on other women, smh!

4. Angie Stone

Stone found out her man Ashanti Graves cheated on her with a “R&B Divas: Atlanta” staffer. She left the show and Graves. In an official statement, “[Angie Stone] walked away from the reality TV show R&B Divas: Atlanta, due to the lack of professionalism on behalf of [the] production crew and she did not want to associate herself with that type of behavior and tricks of the trade. She was to be the voice of reason brought on under false pretenses and after speaking and consulting with pastor and church, it was not something she choose to allow in her life.”

5. Evelyn Lozada

Lozada left Chad “Ochocinco” Johnson after he beat her during an argument. She divorced Ochocinco shortly after marrying him. But he wouldn’t let go of their marriage. They married in July 2012 and divorced in September 2012. He head-butted her and had to deal with the law in return. Although, he keeps talking about her, she’s clearly moved on. She has a new man Carl Crawford and a son with him. She isn’t thinking about Ochocinco.

6. Christina Milian

News broke last month that Milian moved out of her LA home with Jas Prince. And shortly after, speculation of him cheating surfaced. She replied to an Instagram critic with, “you should’ve told HIM not to slip up. But everyone’s really caught up in what they see only on Instagram. I can make everything “appear” perfect to the world, but my truth is still the truth.”

Rumor has it she’s dating Lil Wayne. They showed at the ESPYS Awards together holding hands, but apparently, they have a business arrangement only, as Milian is signed under Young Money.

7. Shaunie O’Neal
She tried to stay for a while after separating from Shaquille O’Neal in 2007 and then, reconciling. But in 2010, she filed for divorce. They had irreconcilable differences. But she hired a private investigator and found text messages from his longtime lover, Vanessa Lopez. Shaq texted, “Hey baby I’m still wit da babies. I’m sorry I’m a c u when I get bak.”

8. Denise Richards

She was pregnant when she left Charlie Sheen in 2005, so you know she was fed up with him. Although, she tried marriage counseling for a minute — probably since they had children, the divorce continued in 2006. Hence, a nasty divorce and a nasty relationship started, which continued through to 2008 when Denise had a reality show called, “Denise Richards: It’s Complicated.” He tried to fight her in order to keep their daughters off the show, but he lost. But in 2009, they reached a custody agreement for their daughters.

9. Halle Berry

The most unanswerable question in years, is how can any man in the world cheat on Halle Berry?! Eric Benet seriously had to have a sex addiction for cheating on Berry. That is the only explanation. Benet slept with two of her closest friends and at least 10 women (probably more) during their marriage. Berry said after three years of marriage,

“Eric and I have had marital problems for some time now and have tried to work things out together,” the 37-year-old actress said through her publicist.

“However, at this point, I feel we need time apart to re-evalute our union.”

10. Reese Witherspoon

Witherspoon and Ryan Phillippe were also victims of the Oscar curse. She won Best Actress and then, divorced her husband for cheating with his Stop Loss co-star Abbie Cornish. Nevertheless, Phillippe opened up to PEOPLE magazine about divorcing Witherspoon, and it wasn’t a nice experience for him, of course. He said, “There were a good four or five months of not being able to get out of bed. It was the worst time in my life.”
But he also said, he moved on and they keep it peaceful for the children. Witherspoon, of course, has moved on herself.

11. Kate Gosselin

Ever since she filed for divorce, her ex-husband Jon has been quite spiteful towards her. She allegedly left him after finding out he cheated with her plastic surgeon’s daughter, Hailey Glassman. But apparently, they began dating after the split. But whatever it was, Kate was fed up and divorced him at the height of their show’s popularity. And as he was being pushed out from “Jon & Kate Plus 8,” he had production shut down. And then, TLC sued him. It was a mess. And it still is a mess. He still has a grudge against his ex-wife — publicly questioning her parenting skills.

12. Camille Grammer

Camille was stepping out into her own spotlight when she joined “The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills” in 2010. But right around that same time, Kelsey Grammer’s cheating scandal occurred. And she decided to bounce — divorcing Kelsey and leaving him thinking about his actions. When she filed for divorce the show was shooting. She filed for custody of their two children as well. Kelsey said he regretted lying to his wife. But when it all was said and done, it was too late.

13. Khloe Kardashian

Kardashian tried to stay for a hot second. But she filed for divorce. And she will reportedly get $7 million from the settlement. Many rumors surfaced as the cause for their failed marriage — including cheating and drug addiction on Lamar Odom’s behalf. Nevertheless, Kardashian has moved on. She is now dating French Montana — having officially gone on the record and saying he’s her man. And even talked about their sex life. They are both still married to other people. Montana has been blasted for taking care of Kardashian more than his own son.

14. Demi Moore

Rumor has it Moore planned to divorce Ashton Kutcher from the moment she left him in the fall of 2011. And she did just that. Allegedly, the funny ladies-man cheated on Moore. And she had enough of her young husband. But due to financial issues, it took her some time to file for divorce. Although, there were rumors of feeling jealous about Kutcher and Mila Kunis’ union, she’s moved on and seems happy.

15. Paula Patton

By now, everyone feels sorry for Robin Thicke — not only because he cheated and lost but because he wouldn’t accept he cheated and lost. When you mess up, of course it makes sense to fight for your woman. But really Thicke… a whole album dedicated to her? Well, the album flopped and his marriage is seemingly over. Patton hasn’t accepted any of his million pleas for forgiveness.

Source: www.madamnoire.com

http://madamenoire.com/451365/15-celebrities-who-were-smart-enough-to-leave-their-men/

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

pickabeau1: Which sides are you referring to now... I dont see things in black and white
Its not we vs them

Why are you asking me a question you already know the answer to?

Aren't you posting on the thread?

smh

pickabeau1: zboyd.. yesterday you said you were not a feminist that you dont do follow follow...

Why this post now

Because there are usually two sides to every issue - For and Against - Pro and Con.

Why not explore both?

cococandy: Married for 21 years?
That's impressive.
Congratulations

Thank you!

fellis: Yea, and lucky for her she was able to find a man that isn't intimidated by her success or intelligence.
Zboyd take care of your man o! Show him plenty love and affection because men like that are a rare breed.

And he's spoiled rotten too - typical Naija man.

Oh well, I can't talk - I am too - but in a good way.

Oahray: Thanks for 1 and 2. I'd get back to them.

Q. 3 Ok better choices. Let me rephrase. Please answer this is it is, an assumption. Never mind if the circumstances can truly happen. Let's say you both don't like the (public?) school in the district. Good thing you have alternatives. Your husband wants your child (one of them) to go to a Catholic school. You don't want that at all, you prefer a private school. Your husband insists. You insist.

What school would your child eventually go to?

Over here, Catholic schools are private. You have to pay tuition. Some of the best schools down here.

No arguments from me.

All pikins will go.

pickabeau1: Ok.. this is better.. i saw your long post

So this submission you have defined.. do you think it is the biblical definition of submission or one as modified by men;s traditions

Why would i expect a woman to submit to me to commit evil

Submission can not be divorced from its biblical context within marriage
Anything else is domination

Twisted men twist Scripture, and hide behind Scripture to do their evil deeds, hence the filing of divorce by some wives who no longer subscribe to the concept of submission.

Do you blame them?

fellis: Wow, you put it so succintly. This is the type of 'submisssion' I am not in support of by the way. I believe married couples should show respect to their spouses. Ample amounts of respect by the way because living in close proximity under the same roof with another person is very trying. The respect should go both ways. That's all.

Unfortunately, that's how it is over here.

Any Christian woman who dares challenge male authority is accused of having the "Spirit of Jezebel" and is in need of divine intervention. lol

Fortunately, not all churches or men are the same.

They're evolving - slowly but surely.

Oahray: yeah, you aren't follow follow... You just by chance happened to have the same ideology with radical feminists. They argue that a woman should not submit to her husband or even bear his name. Do you think it's right to bear a man's name just because you both are married?

Who says identifying with others who share your beliefs makes you 'follow follow' or somewhat inferior to them? Is that how low you esteem yourself?

I know you think for yourself... I've agreed as many times as you have informed me Your opening post which was not original to you, just came on its own, and opened a thread for itself. You did not try to hide behind the words of a 'Reverend' who thinks the Bible is archaic, just as you do. I understand

Do me a favour, always directly answer the question you are asked, instead of meaninglessly beating about the bush. It's not congruent with your intelligence claim. Please note... This favour is not an act of submission, so feel free.

Why do you have an issue with my refusal to embrace the concept of submission?

Why should I adopt some white women's ideology, take it in, and run with it?

Am I not allowed, as a woman, to steer my own path?

My hubby and I are in agreement that the concept of submission has no place in our marriage - mutual respect and mutual cooperation works for us.

Other couples think differently - as is their right.

Btw...this condescending, demeaning tone of yours is getting old - and I also dislike your demanding tone of voice too.

I don't take orders.

Oahray: Zboyd, good to know you have kids. Let's start with these three questions. Tell me...

1) Do you bear your husband's name?

2) Who named your kids?

3) Let's say your family just moved to a new home. Your husband wants one of your kids who is a minor to go to a particular popular school because of the legacy, but you don't like the school at all. You don't want your child there, probably because of the behaviour of some of kids who go there. Your husband insists. Your child doesn't mind any school.

Tell me, would your child go to that school as your husband wants, or would you have your way?

Q. 1 - Yes.

Q. 2 - We both did.

Q. 3 - Over here, your child has to attend only those schools in his or her district - popular or poor. It's a tax thing. Your only alternative are private schools, Catholic schools, charter schools or do home schooling. You can risk using a friend's or relative's address ho lives in a region with better schools, but if you get caught, you will have to transfer your child to his or her home school.

pickabeau1: Admirable...
So can you define what you understand by submission

You have not answered that question yet

I've already answered that question in an earlier post, along with giving examples of the mixed messages Christian women receive, growing up in the church.

Anyway...short version...

Submission = Male Domination...as in "Woman you must submit to me, because the Bible said so!"

This was and is the teaching pounded into every woman's head, growing up in the church over here, specifically Southern Baptist and Pentecostal churches.

eighTHREAD: pls notice I never insulted you, you pulled that stylish stunt which I chose to ignore

well, I don't know you in person but if what you typed is true then I'll ask why stir up other women?

don't know if you married a wuss or not and if things work for your marriage in that manner...the better for you but why must you want other women who might be satisfied the way they are to start to toe your path especially when the bible made itself clear on submission. Maybe you are not a christian.

what has political, economical and social rights got to do with marriage? Marriage is a structure where the man is the head while politics, economics and sociology are structures where any gender can be the head

so women are above laws?

If you are this way, online, I shudder to think how you are offline.

First, you say you don't know me personally, yet you act like you do.

Second, if men don't want women to think then don't allow them to be educated. Isn't that what's happening in some parts of the world?

Third, I assure you my hubby is no wuss. I detest weak, insecure men.

Fourth, you are doing young, intelligent, educated women a disservice, implying that they can be swayed by words on a message board.

Fifth, political, economical and social rights have everything to do with marriage.

Generally speaking...

The passing of laws (Political Rights), assures women protection from marital abuse (Social Rights), and support for children in cases of abandonment of the father and/or divorce (Economical Rights). If there were true gender equality, then why are women all over the world clamoring for equal rights?

As for women being above the laws, no such luck, as long as some men feel THEY are above the laws and free to make women toe the line by relegating them to a subordinate position.

pickabeau1: Ok.. if i may ask, what are your intentions

Lively discourse - keeps me sharp - gives me valuable insights into how other people think - widens my horizons - keeps me open-minded

biafransoul: You're utterly confused. You don't even know what you want or what you even stand for. Have been laughing at the foolishness being exhibited by you all over the forum. If I may ask, what do you really want?

Hmmm...first time I've ever been accused of not knowing what I want or stand for before.

Oh well, such is life.

Glad I'm a source of amusement for you.

Maybe, if you had asked my intentions in the first place, I may have told you.

Too late.

You'll figure it out eventually.

Thanks for responding though.

Opposition is good - sharpens your wits.

eighTHREAD: I'll ignore the first paragraph cos it shows how well you can't hold a meaningful discussion without stylishly insulting your counterpart. 2nd paragraph...futures are foreseen based on present actions. What you do today determines your tomorrow and you my friend are most likely to end up a divorcee or a single mother so long you are eager to throw away the order of submission unless you marry a wussy. 3rd paragraph...the bible which contains the word of God made clear demarcations on how marriage, an institution he formed should be. It is only satanic for some elements to want to topple that saying it's archaic. If you don't believe in submission then don't get married, you can get a sperm donor if you want children. As for the case of equal political, economic and social rights bla...bla...bla...they have been achieved through gender equality, what you are aiming for now is distruption of orderliness and unity. FYI, bosses and husband have something in common- they are heads. You disobey the head in a wrong manner, you get punished in ways soothing.

First, I'm not the one being insulting, "stylishly" or otherwise. You are. So why are you speaking of having a meaningful conversation, after being insulting? Who wants to continue to converse with someone who comes out of the gate speaking to you in an insulting, condescending manner?

Second, after 4 kiddos (3 girls, 1 boy) and a 21-year old marriage, I highly doubt I will end up divorced at this stage.

Third, NO! I don't believe in submission, and neither does my hubby. We don't roll like that. Whomever's decision works for the benefit of the family is the right decision. He detests women who can't think for themselves, doesn't understand why any intelligent, educated woman needs to look to a man for direction, and gets very annoyed by women who act like they can't do things for themselves.

Fourth, current events in Nigeria and worldwide should tell you that equal political, economic and social rights have NOT been been fully achieved through gender equality. Ask yourself why.

Fifth, women are not children to be punished for disobeying. Try 'punishing' some women and they will take you out.

If you are this way, online, I shudder to think how you are offline.

elipheleh: I like your response and it is good to know that you are not angry. Sad so many people tried to rub this name-calling towards you.
But in all honesty I think christian women are not the unhappiest compared to Islamic countries that practically rub women of their rights even in public laws. I could be wrong you know I am not a woman, just saying

And it is good to be a strong-minded individual and know what you want. And the truly mighty people don't try to rub others of their individual choice. Good luck to all strong women and men

I hear you.

I haven't met any Islamic women, personally, over here, but there are several living here.

elipheleh: All your observations are correct. Now let me ask you, Are you angry that all men behave like that? Or is there a brother who is giving you his conditions for long term marriage or what? I think people should stop trying to make people unlike what they like as long as they are not forcing themselves on you. ..It always goes like this, a young girl sees a fine young man she likes and wishes to marry; she goes along and make friends but notice that that guy has a way of life and she starts being pissed whereas she could easily walk away..

If a particular guy (or all men folks for that matter) doesn't want to be serious with an impending partner because she makes more money or successful-women-phobia, or fear of women who make more money, who are you to dictate for him? Is it not his loss (if you so much believe that a successful woman could have made his life so much better)?

For example , Now let me tell you this, we know women are not all enthusiastic about one night stands. In fact most women I have approached and been upfront about a one-night stand turned me down and I don't hate them for that nor do I start plotting evil against those women. Afterall it is their body and they have right to do what they want. Just for this example I have approached 139 women since the last two years solely for one night stand, and only 3 responded as I hoped. That is a poor ration. Does that make all women bad or justify anger towards those that turned me down?
NO!

First, I'm NOT angry, but there has been a lot of anger, nastiness and name-calling directed toward me.

Second, you can lead a horse to the river but you can't make him drink from the river.

Third, what I related is what I was taught in the Southern Baptist Church.

Fourth, I restate again that some of the unhappiest women I've met are Christian women.

Fifth, if submission was so grand, then, why are so many women I meet who subscribe to it unhappy...and you can see it on their faces?

Some things you can't fake.

Btw...only the weak-minded and gullible allow themselves to be swayed by other people's beliefs and opinions.

Babymama1: Here you are going off tangent again and putting everything into this pot
Do you want to talk about submission,your definition of submission,the biblical definition of submission or what you feel people define submission to be?
Which one is it?
You are yet to define submission and only interested in hearing your own voice so there is no point continuing this discussion with you
When you are ready,I shall return

But just answering the question posed by your title
The concept of submission has absolutely nothing to do with a woman's existence or the improvement of it so the title in itself makes no sense.
A more appropriate heading based on your posts so far would be " Is Submission still a necessary injunction today for the modern Christian woman".That is how I would have put it.
Any way

I have no right to change the title of an author's work.

Babymama1: I fail to see what prompted this response from you quoting my post
I don't make the connection
What does a cheating husband or BF have to do with the topic of submission?
Does the conception of submission to you mean,being with a cheating partner
Now you see why I asked you to define submission before progressing so we don't chase the wind

You said...

"...And steer clear from advice such as the OP
She is a single lady
When she marries and has put in some years under her belt then she has the impetus to speak on the subject
She is not yet qualified"

I'm a Mrs. with 4 kiddos...3 girls and 1 boy...married 21 years.

Like I said...ASK..don't ASSume.

I'm usually not in the habit of putting my personal business out over the internet, but I made an exception, in this case.

Babymama1: I usually don't spare men with foolish opinions and same with women
Go through my posts,I don't run with a crowd,I hold my opinions even if I am the only one with it

You are the one making a case against submission not I so I don't have to define submission,you do
You owe it to your audience to define what you mean by submission ,the basis of your argument and this is the 4th page and you still haven't done so
That ought to be the first thing to give your points legitimacy ,so what is submission to you?
That is where you ought to start

In research papers you don't jump unto a subject discussion and conclusion and recommendations without an introduction,defining the subject of discourse.You haven't done that
It is expedient that you do so,that will then become the basis of your discussion

First, those who deem others' opinions as foolish are not open to any other opinions but their own. You can discuss (argue) with them until the cows come home, and they will still deem your opinions foolish.

Second, as a Southern Baptist, do you actually think I don't know what submission is?

Submission, in the case of women is Male Domination, pure and simple.

How could it not be - seeing where the Bible originated from?

Men rule - women follow - no arguments.

Christian women, over here, are given mixed messages....

...get an education / don't get too educated or no man will want to marry you

...be successful / don't be too successful, because men are intimidated by successful women and you might end up a spinster

...be independent / don't be too independent, because men don't like independent women

...speak up for yourself / don't talk back

...think for yourself / don't challenge a man's opinions

...make your own money / don't make too much money, because men have a problem with wives who make more money than they do

...embrace your se*xuality / don't act like you enjoy intimacy too much, because men will think you're loose

...be active in the church / never aspire to preach, teach or lead, because those are men's roles, and women are not to rule over or teach men

...make your own decisions / husbands must lead, guide and teach their wives...

and so on and so forth.

Men are not magically made into leaders full of wisdom at the drop of a hat.

Mutual submission, though clearly defined in the Bible, is conveniently ignored by men with control freak tendencies.

Relationships built on the foundation of one partner ruling over another is a relationship that will most likely always have an uneven and unhealthy existence.

But the relationship that’s built on a solid foundation of equality and mutual respect between partners is a relationship that has the potential to be both healthy and happy for a very long time.

Babymama1: Remember you came off touting this post as a pastoral opinion to give it legitimacy
Nobody who believes in the Bible will question a Biblical order by calling it some ancient order that is irrelevant today
He is not thinking outside the box,he is giving an unbiblical opinion while calling himself a reverend and someone ought to call him out on it.
Rev King was also a reverend

First, I didn't "tout" anything, as a "pastoral opinion" to give anything "legitimacy". Some pastors are indeed the Bible on many things, especially the concept of submission - a concept that seems to favor - not women - and makes some women targets of abuse.

Second, if God didn't want His children to question - why give them brains to think? Why go to Bible Study? Why attend Seminary?

Third, the concept of submission, as laid out in the Bible IS ancient. The question is...Is it still applicable today, as it was over 2000 years ago, originating from a society that treated women like second-class citizens...or worse?

Fourth, when Pastor T.D. Jakes reversed his teaching of women staying and praying in abusive marriages, hoping their husbands would change, he was thinking out of the religious box, by recognizing that some Christian men abuse and twist the concept of submission and women suffered from it.

Fifth, some pastors/reverends - American and Nigerian should be called out on their questionable teachings and activities too.

Sixth, King was indeed a reverend...and...also an adulterer - a serial one.

Oahray: yeah yeah... You'd like to believe you are the only human who thinks for herself. How about a nice round of applause for your intellect? I wonder how my sarcasm managed to fly over your head.

After you copied and pasted questions from another mind that fits your ideology (so much for thinking for yourself), and I answered them, did you find any meaningful objection? Nah, all you did was spam the thread with the same argument that you think for yourself. Since when did that become the bone of contention?

I simply said you are feminist, and you are yet to deny or accept it. All you did was attempt another strawman. Don't tell me you are ashamed of being feminist.

You believe submission can only mean being a thoughtless female robot controlled by a man. I believe submission encompasses something different and can even accommodate mutual respect. How come I'm the narrow-minded one?

Stop the self-deception, for your own sake.

If you had been following my posts, I stated more than once that I am not a follow-follow type of woman.

I have no need to follow the ideology of some white women unhappy with their lot with white men (Feminism)...because that's where the concept started...with middle-class white women who wanted a life outside of being a housewife and mother and their husbands wouldn't allow them to.

Therefore, I am not a feminist.

I follow ZBoydology - I think for myself.

If you believe "submission encompasses something different and can even accommodate mutual respect"...then why not spread the word because some people are obviously confused.

Btw...your nastiness DIDN'T fly over my head...and is duly noted.

One other thing...why are you getting all heated over a discussion of "submission"?

Very curious.

Anyways...thanks for your response.

One thing about Oprah...she has been VERY open about her personal struggles in life...such as being molested by 3 family members, being a rebellious, promiscuous teenager, becoming pregnant at fourteen, begging a man on her knees to not break up with her, weight struggles, not having kids because she didn't think she would be a good mother, due to her troubled background, etc.