₦airaland Forum

aztruth: ARE YOU PUBLICLY AGREEING THAT SOMEONE ELSE IS IMPORTANT EVEN IN A SURGICAL OPERATION BESIDES THE DOCTOR?
I DON'T THINK SO

IT'S NOTHING MORE THAN A SANCTIMONIOUS ATTITUDE: PRAISE TO ME AND ERRORS TO OTHERS

I REMEMBER A LEGAL CASE IN WHICH A DOCTOR HELD THAT IT WAS NOT HIS JOB TO CHECK HIS PRESCRIPTIONS FOR PROBLEMS BUT THAT OF A PHARMACIST. THEREFORE PLEADING THAT THE PHARMACIST BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS PRESCRIPTION ERROR THAT KILLED A PATIENT. AFTER THE COURT SESSION AM SURE HE WOULD TELL THE PUBLIC THE HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL ASPECTS OF PATIENT CARE AND THAT THE PHARMACIST KNOWD NOTHING BUT HIS JOB SHOULD BE RESTRICTED TO DISHING OUT TO PATIENTS THE DOCTORS COMMAND

okparaugo: Oga, being a doctor does not amount to threatening the federal govt every 6 months while patients are left to die due to the unavailability of these people.

Things are really difficult in this country, engineers spend at least 5 years of intensive studies to secure their degrees, lawyers spend up to 6 or 7 years to secure their degrees, yet it is only doctors from the list of core professionals who are guaranteed of instant employment on the completion of their academic work and housemanship.

This has given this set of professionals a sense of importance and variance over other professionals in the job market and their residency status makes them feel like gods over patients and human lives..

yomexp: nairaland.com is a faceless forum where anybody can claim to be anything without any much ado. so don't equate an election to whatever is happening here on nairaland; is this a joke or what?

now going by your logic since we need the army to conduct an election and according to you "Nigerians are just used to unruly behaviour" and we can't do anything with civility in nigeria, perhaps the C in C should handover to the chief of defence staff for proper administration?

yomexp: is that y u need soldiers in hood/mask to whip your yanch with guns and koboko just to keep you inline?
whatever happened to educating the people on how you want them to behave in a particuler circumstance? a very good example is the BRT system in lagos. prior to this transportation was always chaotic and disorganized but now people queue up to board buses in lagos. that wasn't a sight we were used to but some one came and showed leadership.

yomexp: only in nigeria we use troops to conduct civil election.
what a charade!

drered: . In your previous post you asked why I was jumping into a solution when there was no problem, well the problem with making the position of CEO exclusive to MD's has been identified and the solution has been proffered in earlier posts. Appointments should be based purely on competency/qualification/leadership skills and this will include other members of the health care team and greatly boost morale except you argue that all this qualities are exclusive to MD's then I have nothing to say further on this. Lol. You are the one not being rational sir, i brought that up cuz it is very relevant to the discussion and it points to the double standards expressly shown by MD's. It affected everyone cuz u singled out two professionals from a pool and agitated for a better welfare package when everyone should have been carried along. Matter of fact that was a major contributing factor to all this brouahaha, JOHESU was created to agitate for a better welfare for its members and in classic NMA style they get involved in trying to counter demands that had been made to their employer, the government by saying it isn't "best" for the patient. The repression is very clear sir. PCN saw what applied in developed countries took a delegate including all the deans of the faculties of pharmacy there, they got back laid a framework for the pharm. D programme that was more clinically oriented since the role of the pharmacist in hospitals is limited to the mechanical dispensing of drugs which is clearly unproductive relative to their academic coverage. They forwarded this to the NUC that gave them an initial go ahead..and then Medical and Dental consultants of Nigeria took PCN to court concerning it saying in explicit terms that it wasn't best for the patients with other doctors stating here that it is the life long goals of other members of the healthcare team to be called doctors and that was what the whole point of the pharm. D programme is.. The consultancy issue by other members of the health care team being blocked by MD's is another example.. Loads of instances but I'd rather stop here. If this isn't clear enough for you or "too emotional" and "impulsive" then I'd rather not go further..

drered: . In your previous post you asked why I was jumping into a solution when there was no problem, well the problem with making the position of CEO exclusive to MD's has been identified and the solution has been proffered in earlier posts. Appointments should be based purely on competency/qualification/leadership skills and this will include other members of the health care team and greatly boost morale except you argue that all this qualities are exclusive to MD's then I have nothing to say further on this. Lol. You are the one not being rational sir, i brought that up cuz it is very relevant to the discussion and it points to the double standards expressly shown by MD's. It affected everyone cuz u singled out two professionals from a pool and agitated for a better welfare package when everyone should have been carried along. Matter of fact that was a major contributing factor to all this brouahaha, JOHESU was created to agitate for a better welfare for its members and in classic NMA style they get involved in trying to counter demands that had been made to their employer, the government by saying it isn't "best" for the patient. The repression is very clear sir. PCN saw what applied in developed countries took a delegate including all the deans of the faculties of pharmacy there, they got back laid a framework for the pharm. D programme that was more clinically oriented since the role of the pharmacist in hospitals is limited to the mechanical dispensing of drugs which is clearly unproductive relative to their academic coverage. They forwarded this to the NUC that gave them an initial go ahead..and then Medical and Dental consultants of Nigeria took PCN to court concerning it saying in explicit terms that it wasn't best for the patients with other doctors stating here that it is the life long goals of other members of the healthcare team to be called doctors and that was what the whole point of the pharm. D programme is.. The consultancy issue by other members of the health care team being blocked by MD's is another example.. Loads of instances but I'd rather stop here. If this isn't clear enough for you or "too emotional" and "impulsive" then I'd rather not go further..

ottizz: I have read your first post regarding quackery in the medical profession. I am in total support of your recommendation of real time online access of registered physicians. I must add, for the benefit of the patient also, that physician clinics should not dispense medications unless a licensed pharmacist is present. In fact physician clinics should not be allowed to dispense medications to avoid conflict of interest.

But Ziga, my only reason for posting on this topic is solely on the issue of who should be the head of a hospital. My beef is that some people are saying that this job should be the birthright of the physician, but I am saying that the position should be reserved for the person that has the interpersonal skill and management experience to effectively manage the diverse individuals in an industry that is largely driven by ego.

drered: Think sir, the dots can't all be connected for you.. Part of the problem of the health care system is the repression of a greater number of the members of the healthcare team. And if you know anything about management you'd know this will greatly affect productivity and output. When a people are made to feel that they are not-so-relevant and they can't and should not reach the peak of their careers just cuz the doctors want it that way their will be a problem, a big one sir. Why are doctors not agitating and going on strike cuz of the extremely poor quality of care they are forced to give due to lack of funds to the hospital? Or the dearth of machines and equipment to make diagnosis and carry out certain procedures? So making the position of CEO exclusive to doctors has fixed one of our many healthcare problems ba? All you saying here is you don't change institution when it doesn't suit you but then you'd clamour for changes like the creation of surgeon general, the CONMESS salary scale from the previously unified scale and all the other systems that centres on the doctor. Talk about double standards..

drered: I won't drop something that is relevant to the point I'm making cuz the number of ignoramuses here are enormous hence the need for proper education. I really don't care much about who becomes CEO, matter of fact in the whole fracas between NMA and JOHESU the least of my concern is who gets to head hospitals. I'd just prefer it was any competent person with required qualification and experience .. But then when the competency of other professions are questioned in trying to prove a point then things have to be set straight..

drered: What studies have you done to infer that other members of the health care team won't do better?

armadeo: PPP will be interesting. It would affect everybody in the sector. From Drs to nurses to pharmacist nobody would go unscathed.

If it begins sectionally the govt will privatise areas which are product intensive I.e sales so pharmacy and labs would be affected first as individuals will be willing to invest in these areas to reap profits of course there would be massive reduction in staff strength and possibly salary and increase in work hours.

The wards may also be privatised, clinic would be difficult as would physiotherapy, theaters. The entire records, cleaning, ambulance services light etc will all go private.

The people who would be least affected would be the drs, nurses, physiotherapist( may be affected though as private physiotherapy units could also be placed in the hospital).

Many people would lose their jobs.

Finally the person who would suffer the most would be patients because health service would no longer be a govt initiative but driven by capitalism which is profit oriented.

Patients would be unable to pay for services and death rate would soar. A sad day such will be but that may just be where we are heading.

drered: [b] What studies have been done in Nigeria to show that MD's are effective CEO's?[/b]What breakthroughs have been made with MD's as CEO's? What novel ideas have been born?.. Fulfil what individual responsibilities? At what point does your training intersect with heading hospitals? Talking bout training, pharmacy students take a whole course on management + the rigorous training they undergo so what bad belle are you talking about? If the cap fits you shouldn't wear it cuz traditionally MD's have been CEO's in Nigeira.? People can't be repressed for too long..

drered: What studies have been done in Nigeria to show that MD's are effective CEO's? What breakthroughs have been made with MD's as CEO's? What novel ideas have been born?.. Fulfil what individual responsibilities? At what point does your training intersect with heading hospitals? Talking bout training, pharmacy students take a whole course on management + the rigorous training they undergo so what bad belle are you talking about? If the cap fits you shouldn't wear it cuz traditionally MD's have been CEO's in Nigeira.? People can't be repressed for too long..

Zeus777: is the vice chancellor from pharmacy, medicine, engineering an administrator in qualification sense ? So to use ur skewed Physician CMD logic , those professors shouldn't be appointed VCs after all d VC post is administrative just like the CMD"s

prettyprettywow: I'm not sure you know what you are talking about. Longitudinal studies will mean following the leadership of the hospitals for a very long time to know if the present state is as a result of the present administration or previous good administrators. Longitudinal study is the best way to prove causation after you must have controlled for several things. Yes, it's very much possible to compare physician and non-physician CEO after controlling for as many extraneous variables as possible if you must use cross-sectional research design. You can't jump into conclusion which the author understood, hence his statement that the findings does not prove that physicians are better than professional CEOs.
I think why every Dom, Dick, and Harry is citing this particular study is because no one has bothered to replicate it.

I am not here to critic the research (The journal wil have to pay me for that), but to point out what the author already pointed out

allycat: I know these are not Federal Universities but in Federal Universities we have veterinary surgeons, zoologist, microbiologist as VC's . Any Proffesor who has the requisite background can become a vice chancellor because the main function of the university is to teach. The teaching hospital likewise is also an educational institution where medical doctors are trained and as such in Nigeria. So if a professional from within the system is to head such an institution I would think it right that someone involved in the core function of the institution should head it. In the Federal Universities the CMD is also a staff of the College of Medicine ie a Professor. This is so that such a person understands the dual functions of a teaching hospital I.e. Training and service. State teaching hospitals differ because of politics where teaching hospital CMD are political appointees that generally are answerable to the powers that be and that is why you have many state teaching hospitals having problems with accreditation.

ottizz: Read my first post on this topic and see my answer to your question.

ottizz: What?
Okay, let me break it down for you, as you are still unable to grasp my point. In a health-system there are many things involved. Yes, the ultimate end is patient care, however, there are a lot of things that have to happen correctly in other to get to this ultimate end. It will take someone that is able to deal harmoniously with all the departments so they can all work synchronously to reach this common goal. The departments in a health-system include, but not limited to nursing, medicine, engineering, pharmacy, janitorial, central supply, security, accounting, information technology, and human resources. This person has to oversee a lot of budgetary issues, patient satisfaction issues, and community awareness and citizenship issues, etc. That is why there is a field called health care administration. If a physician has the vast experience to deal with all these and become the CEO of such a health-system, it will have less to do with his/her medical license but more with his/her managerial expertise. But to have a physician manage the hospital based just on their medical degree is outright ridiculous and will produce no growth for that particular hospital.

thegeneral84: Syrup is usually sweetened to make it easier for children to swallow. What is important is the amount of "active" drug component in a particular quantity of syrup. An equivalent amount of tablet can be given if the child can swallow it. Sometimes u may be advised to dissolve the tablet with "something sweet" (thus creating a syrup) before giving to the child. Equivalent doses of tablet and syrup are the same and d child's liver will handle both the same way.

minkawe: So, you think the gridlock situation we have currently in the health sector is the best. As much as I'm in total agreement with you on training and the quality of training, Sir, do you think these fighters see it along that line of thought, rather people believed they're being repressed by Doctors. If Laboratory scientists could be bold to usurp authority of Pathologists, what are we then saying; the workings of things in health sector is not really clear too many, rather many believe Doctors are only protecting their selfish interests.

minkawe: Well, FG did not create the chaos in the health sector to start with, so why do you think they are not interested in the health of the people. The issue as I said in my previous post is that the health sectors has too many stars that want to be reckon with whereas the hospital setting avails doctors alone such opopportunity.
Also, your comparison or analogy using paramilitary did not suffice, because various paramilitary outfit are created day in day out with ex-men running some wonderful outfits, then also training a military personnel is not as demanding as training Doctors, so recruitment is a lot more easier than churning out medical graduates.

minkawe: Bro, I love to diagree with training more Doctors as a solution. All around the globe, Doctors are either in short supply or concentrated in commercial centers hence as years role into years other health workers were trained to provide services to people in those communities Doctors decided to abandon. Canada is worst hit because the rate at which they churn out medical graduates is abysmally low coupled with stiff competition in their postgraduate training, close to 20states in United states have granted Pharmacist the prescribers role because Doctors don't like working there. This problem seems more deeply rooted than we think.

joshuapharm: *patient comes into the pharmacy coughing profusely*
patient: Good morning sir, pls can i get a drug for my cough?
Pharmacist: I'm sorry, im not a medical doctor, pls go to the hospital
patient: Ive been to the hospital, the queue is crazy plsss
Pharmacist: Once again, im not a medical doctor, the load of pharmacology and clinicals i did in pharmacy school is not enough pls go to the hospital..
Next day,
*patient comes in holding tummy and screaming*
Pharmacist: Pls go to the hospital oo because i dont know which kind of pain it is..
*patient keeps crying and gruntling*
patient: pls give me a drug to relieve me, i'll go to the hospital afterwards
Pharmacist: Im not a doctor, i dont want to do the job of a doctor so plsss.. its not my fault..
Is this the kind of pharmacy practice you want us to run in Nigeria? When will our medical doctors come off this abysmal ignorance about the pharmacy profession? Why the hate? Cheers!

odilinonso: Even with all those opportunities you still find pharmacists in hospitals, shouldn't you ask why? [b]Pharmacists are well trained in patient care (which as we all know doctors lack) [/b]and this entails ensuring that every patient gets it right with drug therapy. So my friend they stay back to ensure that doctors accurately make use of their tools (drugs) so as to avoid uunnecessary complications in the patient because, as earlier stated, their ultimate goal is to IMPROVE PATIENT'S QUALITY OF LIFE. I so love Pharmacists!!!

Jogbojogbo: We always put blame on government! We have forgotten that, govt. put somebody there to do the needful.
The CMD's in charge of various hospitals should use their IGR to provide some basic instruments & equipment for the use
of the workers instead of using the money for frivolous things, things that are irrelevant to the diagnosis & treatment
Of the patients they are to look after, & that is why some people will capitalise on this to exploit patients. Therefore, the born to rule administrators (the Docs)
who are suppose to know the importance of having these instruments & equipment should use their IGR to buy them. Chikena!
They are incharge as CMDs & they should run it well.

chucs: You are saying that If a nurse,pharmacist etc bags a doctorate degree they won't be referred to as Doctors?

Joejonah: hope you are not studying medicine too with this your English??

chucs: So you know about that and you did not Include that in a normal country doctors do their work and forget about Hospital administration? Nurses do their duties, they don't carry out orders please. A nurse is not answerable to a doctor,get it correct.