₦airaland Forum

Claus:
What's the motivation? Global vision right?

I would say Global domination It appears the objective is to be the dominant brand everywhere, probably unseat the Roman Catholic Church it's no longer about spreading the gospel

nlMediator:
Most people that fill decision cards or answer altar calls at these meetings are people that have confessed Jesus as Lord numerous times. Some of them are the same people that appears in different ministers’ crusades. Wonder why after these meetings, the branch churches still have few members, 99.9% of whom are Nigerians?

Thats what they don't understand. With the problem in Nigeria, people go from one crusade to the other. One night vigil to another. They believe they are wining souls. Come Friday everybody will be at redeem camp, CEC, MFM, Winners, Cele, even boko haram by sunday (or subsequent Friday ) every body is back to their regular place of worship

Joagbaje:
we must embrace technology and it cost good money.

Just as ogajim noted, technology was developed to make processes/transactions/activities more efficient and cheaper. why is your own different? wrong use, maybe. With technology, pastor don't even need to travel anymore. this will eliminate the need for private jet even made easier now that healings can be done from a remote location via tv and internet

Joagbaje:
Do you know the extent of the reach of the tv? Is it for a show? Do you know how many got saved through them?

It's for show most times very little impact. The cost far outweigh the benefit. But if you say many people get saved through them (this i believe is not significant ), that means you need less physical branch network and more cost savings. Thats what technology is all about  

Joagbaje:
If we must make global impact. . . . .

This is the bit i don't understand, everybody want to go global. even the small church that just opened next door want to go global in the near future. is there any place on earth you will get to and not find that a church has been there before you? Redeem want to preach the gospel to the end of the earth, same with CEC, MFM e.t.c i am sure a church somewhere overseas is making plans (collecting contributions from members) to spread the gospel to my village where we already have over fifteen brands maybe you all converge at the north pole and you expect the gospel to be cheap.

Joagbaje:
If we must make global impact. . . . .

oga, go and make impact in Maiduguri

Joagbaje:
This is a serious matter .Can you send your e mail to my box Pls.

Jo which one you dey na you want to bribe the man to keep quite abi you want to avoid a scandal abi this is one disclosure i like to read abeg my brother crossman9, do you accept advance payment for your book

Joagbaje:
I get your point now. You're saying a pastor who is not skilled in financial issues should get qualified personel to teach it. Agree. I thought you are saying such teaching should not be done at all. Many pastors do get professionals to train their members in such empowerment seminars.

Teachings can be done. I think it's a good thing for church to organize training sections for members (especially if it is free) But i am still against the teaching of the kalo-kalo gospel in church it is unscriptural and criminal. Any pastor teaching this should be arrested. It's advance fee fraud

Joagbaje:
Generally it is assumed as though It is about finances. But I have often explained that prosperity is not about finances it is about functioning in the fulness of Gods blessings made available through christ. If a man has money and he is living on oxygen tank or he is in a coma, that's not prosperity.

You are saying it's a perfect condition. The person lack nothing, good health, long life, money to meet every need, no pain, no grief, its joy unlimited, there is no 'down time' how many people truely achieve this Jo

Joagbaje:
I can define it as walking in Gods blessing

I guess there are very few prosperous people around then cos there are very few people that lives a live with no 'down time' (if any)

Joagbaje:
Jesus came to destroy all the works of the devil which include sickness ,poverty and death . He also taught many principles of prosperity .

Okay, this makes a bit more sense to me. My initial understanding of your post was that Jesus made some poor people rich. Why i agree some of the principles you highlighted are required for success, but they are not everything. sometimes they don't even apply (for the lucky chaps)

Joagbaje:
But he still told him to give. That's based on the principles of prosperity. We make money to give.

Yes, he told him to give; but to meet a need, not to a pastor. This is what we have been preaching here; give to meet needs, not 'dash' your money to a pastor with four P-Jets.

Joagbaje:
Giving to a pastor is just one of the many givings . I have often said here that. There are about 7major givings in the bible . Giving to parents, the poor, man of God, offering, special projects etc. One doesn't replace the other. They all have their blessings .

You are saying the blessing associated with giving to pastor cannot be achieved any other way. Do you have scriptural support.

ogajim:
why not win "souls" in your own backyard before flying to SA, UK, Europe, USA, etc to win over Christians who had access to Christianity before they brought it to Africa?

Why are there no branches in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Russia, etc?

It is no longer about wining souls, it's about spreading their brand. Thats why they find the gospel expensive.

Claus:
Once classic example is the use of private jets. Let's just assume for this argument that the private jets are necessary, as a lot of people claim.

A pool of 2 or 3 jets can serve many ministries, yet a lot of ministries go all out to get their own exclusive jet.
All in the name of propagating the gospel right

This approach could damage the brand of the bigger churches (those with very strong brand image). I don't think they want that to happen.

Joagbaje:
Many Christians also have finacial issues with diferent reasons. Some have problem with managing funds, financial indiscipline ,cheating and all sorts which works against the principles of prosperity and by this they have financial problem. It is not prayer they need . They need teaching. Some Christians are lazy at work . A lazy man will be poor even if he is born again. It is a pastors responsibility to perfect them there.

You know Jo, reading this post all over and i think your post above describes the average pastor pastors cheat when they lie about tithe, seed sowing e.t.c some pastors are lazy, not willing to work hard. You talked about financial indiscipline, we have seen pastors buying private jet on credit then come begging the congregation for support to write-off their debt. I have to say that the average pastor does not what it takes to teach or perfect anybody

Joagbaje:
A brother who's case was so bad that he began to steal , Paul had to make him know he can do something worthwhile with his life.

The average Nigerian pastor will advise the thief to sow the stolen cash unto the pastor we've seen that happen before. an example is that Sheraton staff that was sowing stolen money

Joagbaje:
Prosperity is nit about eating with golden spoon and being materialistic . It is about maximising your potentials in God instead of living a beggarly life.

Jo, can you clarify. I am not sure i understand this bit. Thanks

Joagbaje:
The principles of money management are all in the bible. The bible is complete. Read my post above

I did read your post. All i saw was hard work, diligence & honesty. is that all that is required?

Joagbaje:
Many Christians also have finacial issues with diferent reasons. . . . .

Joagbaje:
. . . . . . cheating and all sorts which works against the principles of prosperity and by this they have financial problem. It is not prayer they need . They need teaching. Some Christians are lazy at work . A lazy man will be poor even if he is born again. It is a pastors responsibility to perfect them there.

Romans 12:11
11 Not slothful in business. .

Proverbs 12:24
24 The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.

The teaching on prosperity and success are based on this principles .

Issues that has to do with ethics/morals and hard work can be taught by anybody with the requisite experience. It would be wrong to see it as a the sole responsibility of the pastor or to say only the pastor has what it takes to provide such advise. Some mothers can be better at this. But i don't think this is the kind of prosperity talk people criticize.

Joagbaje:
A brother who's case was so bad that he began to steal , Paul had to make him know he can do something worthwhile with his life.

Ephesians 4:28
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands [/b]the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

If the church has no business teaching property why would paul be doing it here. He was teaching the poor wretched stealing brother how to prosper. A pastor has such responsibility.

Again this has to do with hard work and morals. I don't think people have issues with this. You will observe that Paul told him to work hard, not sow into some pastor.

Joagbaje:
Many Christians also have finacial issues with diferent reasons. [b]Some have problem with managing funds, financial indiscipline

I do have problem with this. If the pastor is not trained in money management, then he is not in a position to advise his congregation.

Joagbaje:
These are one of the issues in the lesser truth versus greater truths. If you give the poor handout of food and spends ,it is lesser truth. But if you can make him stand to the point of helping others , that's greater truth.

Com'on Jo, you can't be serious. I think you are just trying to be funning here.

newmi:
You see that is the problem your connotative and contextual interpretation of meaning nobody said that the purpose of properity is primarily to fund church l wonder where you are getting your insinuations from

Okay, maybe i got it wrong. But to prove i did, kindly explain the post below

newmi: it is hypocracy for anyone to think that properity or the topic of money is convinient to be discuss every where else but in the church it is LUDACRIS.
does the church exist illusively in space? or are churches built and sustained with the "blood of Jesus" as the transacting legal tender or perhaps a big, cheerful and "holigirized" "God blesh you" paid the bill for sound equipment, television air time or may be internet expenses.

Avoiding this post will make you a big lier It also mean you desperately need to get a brain

Joagbaje:
We should learn to ask questions about others first before we judge them.

. . .and you should attempt to understand my post before you respond.

Joagbaje:
Have you tried to see from the other side . If any one teaches about prosperity what is The motive.

My post goes beyond motive. Is the pastor qualified to advise a member which 'stock' to invest in I did note that this is allowed if he is skilled investment manager.

Joagbaje:
Is it not better to teach the poor how to prosper. Instead of being a liability on others.

I do agree with this. I also believe the poor should be taught; by qualified personnel

Joagbaje:
if he came to heal broken hearted , heal the blind , what of the poor ? To make them poorer? No. Rather to prosper them. True prosperity comes from God.

When John became impatient asking if jesus was really the messiah since they haven't seen action yet jesus directed him to scriptures that he has started fulfilling. And one of such is preaching to the poor. What else can be a good news to the poor than their prosperity.

You give the impression that Jesus came to make the poor rich. if i have a wrong impression, please provide the required clarification. You also stated that Jesus did fulfill this mission. So i can conclude that Jesus did enrich the poor. My question then is how? It's not stated anywhere that the poor became loaded with cash. What i read in the bible is that the poor has the good news preached to them.

Joagbaje:
It's about empowerment for members. And many testify to this how the message of prosperity has worked in their lives.

How many? i don't know much about your church, but for a good number of churches i have been to ( including some CECs), the poor easily outnumber the rich. The way prosperity is preached, it's assumed to be a condition of financial lack. I remember asking you one time if there is a benchmark, a threshold for defining prosperity. But as always, you avoided the question. Maybe for some, having enough to start a petty trade is enough to give testimonies, for some it could be a few millions in the bank while for others it could be having your own personal airport. It's possible i agree with you if i have a proper understanding of what you mean by financial prosperity.

mabell:
@Zikky,
who has given you the mandate to tell pastors not to preach prosperity but like you said, it's your opinion

Got it from the same source that gave pastor mandate to preach prosperity

mabell:
Prosperity does not just have to do with finances
you can prosper in all you do, your job, your marriage, your life as a whole
that is prosperity

Thank God you know i am talking about finance. I have no problem if Pastor restrict their sermons to the spiritual aspect. Money management is not for pastor unless he is a skilled money manager.

Martian:
Joagbaje is just indulging in double speak here, trying to justify his thieving,conniving, cowardly and ignorant ways.

True talk my brother.

newmi:
Answer this question is this too much to ask of you
"do telivision stations collect the "blood of Jesus Christ" as payment for services rendered? or may state of the act equipments are purchased with a "holighorized God blessssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh you"

Please stop asking irrelevant questions Go through the thread from the first page & first post, do you read zikkyy saying gospel is preached at zero logistics cost If not, what the basis for the question above Please provide answers to Jo's questions, namely;
1. Is the gospel free or new converts have to pay for it?
2. Some people believe givers like newmi are mugus, why?
3. Does giving equate to paying for the gospel?

Jo need answers, help him out

kcjazz:
@Jo

The Gospel is free. I believe that when we get to heaven, God is not going to tell folks "we missed our target due to budget constraints". Money is a tool and not the Gospel. What we need are a willing Church to lead the gospel. Having this in mind will help us see things differently.

Nice post. I hope Jo reads this

Joagbaje:
I've answered. These outreaches require financial contributions. So giving for such outreaches help to further the gospel.

You have not answered oh The question was what type of giving will be required to fund television, satallite & internet gospel or you want Enigma to convert the question to a multiple choice type, so you can do some permutations (seeing you not sure anymore) As your good friend, i'll try to convince Enigma to modify the question but it will be difficult oh, so no guarantee

Joagbaje:
I've answered. These outreaches require financial contributions. So giving for such outreaches help to further the gospel.

newmi:
Jo it is pointless making any further effort trying to make him get it. . .haba for how long na do telivision stations collect the "blood of Jesus Christ" as payment for services rendered? or may state of the act equipments are purchased with a "holighorized God blessssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh you"

You see yourself you don't even understand what being discussed please get a brain, you need one

newmi:
What brand, can't you get it? there is no brand to be sold, it is moving with global trend

So, it's global trend for churches to steal snatch customers from each other. So it's global trend for cec to invest millions setting up branches in the U.S just to win Benny Hinn (& co) customers and vice versa. hmmm, this is interesting

newmi:
you are even narrow in your thinking to think that any specific country like you mentioned America is the target; NO! NO! you are wrong, the whole world is the mission field and what better way to do it than to take advantage of current global technological trend. . . it that a wrong thing to do

I never said America was your sole target. BTW any testimonies from Afghanistan and Iraq. It would be nice to hear some Talibans or Al-queda were won over after watching oyaks on loveworld t.v, internet or via satallite

newmi:
For once imagine if the several missionaries many of whom came from Europe who paid the ultimate sacrifice in denying self and families had reasoned that until they were successful in their backyard Africa does not deserve to hear the gospel. . .hmmmmmmm this "dark continent" well till tomorrow their backyard remains anything but successfully kept

It's good to see you acknowledge your failure back home. What makes you think you will be successful abroad, if you are unable to convince your people here. You are spending millions investing abroad (e.g. America) to re-convert christians i.e. win customers from the like of Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollars e.t.c (your brothers in prosperity). Money that could be better spent winning unbelievers on your backyard

newmi:
who needs your change   you might as well pay your fair their anyway just for the records we do have a church at Maiduguri

That's okay i did offer

I am aware you have a church. I just need you to make some noise. It would be nice to see boko haram members at the crusade ground giving their life to Christ, or dont you think

newmi:
that probably explains why it also would be difficult for you to understand how the prophecy below would be possible
"Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come"

Your problem is very simple; you have difficulty processing all you've been reading Let me present it in a manner you will understand Imagine a situation where a good number of churches are trying to win over this christian lady at here residence. Redeem, MFM, CEC e.t.c queuing up outside her residence and wait their turn to preach the gospel her. Now every church will have to pay 10K each to the security personnel at the gate before they are allowed in. oyaks is number 10 on the queue. Now my question is this, why would oyaks pay the 10K just to preach a similar message to this woman? after Oyedepo, Adeboye and seven others have taken turns to preach the gospel to the lady? is it because oyaks does not believe adeboye & co have or can do the job successfully? or like i stated in my post, oyaks also want to sell his church, brand of gospel and hopefully get the lady to become a member of cec?

livin:


U just spoke my mind.

Don't mind them jare Oga oyaks is chilling in Lagos, Madam oyaks is relaxing in London, brother oyaks is hanging with his homies in S.A (or is it America); who is in Maiduguri (or even Iraq) sister Jo and they want my money

nlMediator:
If advancing the gospel means using underhanded tactics, especially at the expense of inflicting hidden harm to people Jesus shed His blood for, the gospel is not worth advancing.

My brother, i beg tell them jare if only they truly understand the damage/havoc they caused with the kalo-kalo gospel

Joagbaje:
to reach the world on a larger scale. These outreaches are necessary .

Is there an unexplored territory that you are reaching out to? I wonder why a church in nigeria would spend so much money preaching to christians in America, if not to sell it's brand You are not even successful in your backyard, you are spending big money to convert Christians in western nations. Kindly advise oyaks to hold the next crusade or night of bliss in Maiduguri, we need to win over the boko haram people abeg i will gladly provide my share of financial support

Joagbaje:
From crusades to television preaching , Internet ,Satelite, relief outreaches , Innercity outreaches ,prisons ,and others. These outreaches require financial commitment .

I also don't understand why so many pastors/ministries will queue up on cable television to preach to the same audience/crowd, aside selling their brand

Enigma:
Meanwhile @ Joagbaje your task still remains: please identify for us the types of giving that advance the gospel. Thanks.

Joagbaje:
Several ministries have their different ways of reaching out. Of course one of the primary ways of reaching out to people is the one on one evangelism. But to reach the world on a larger scale. These outreaches are necessary . From crusades to television preaching , Internet ,Satelite, relief outreaches , Innercity outreaches ,prisons ,and others. These outreaches require financial commitment .

Jo as usual is avoiding the question television, internet and satelite are communication tools, not type of giving

mabell:
This branding you talk about, is it of the church or of some persons?

Both. i.e. church as a registered entity and pastor

Joagbaje:
What do you mean by branding

nuclearboy:
^^ what he meant by branding is what I called the "encumbrances".

They are the cost of your "Gospel"

@Nuke, thank you jare

Joagbaje:
Lets avoid getting personal. Offer 7 is not a levy it's what a people choose to do. Let's leave it out. And it's wrong to criticise what you don't know about. Let's prove our points scripturally.

We are not leaving anything out most of the criticism you complain of relates to giving like offer 7, tithes, seed sowing e.t.c. and not funding a missionary project to zikkyy's village

^^^ i was just bout to raise this

Joagbaje:
That's why  the missing link to be ironed out.

There is no missing link, you are the one attempting to pad a free service with hidden charges

Joagbaje:
If anyone feel it is wrong to give for the gospel sake . Let them state it clearlly .

Well, if you must know, i will never support the funding of the kalo-kalo (give & receive) gospel

Joagbaje:
If the gospel is free to the world , it is costly to the church. And it is appropriate for the church to sponsor it. On tv, radio, Internet ,Satelite ,and the print media.

Good for you. I don't think anybody is complaining But i think you will worry less bout funding if you reduce the amount of church resources spent on branding

Joagbaje:
For that reason ,calling Christians MuGu for giving money in church is not right because it's a scriptural thing they are doing.

Now i see why you came up this thread But you are very wrong to say people call Christians mugu for giving in church. Actually, they are called mugu falling for the pastor sweet raps

nuella2:
I didnt say they shld refund the preacher his money, preachers make sacrifices all the time. I have personally treacked to a village to preach some years ago, we treaked for like three hours cos there was no means of modern day transportation. And we didnt charge anybody there, we paid our transport to a particular village before the treaking experience.

nuella2:
If i see a preacher in my village i will partner with him, not bc he asked for it or i want to compensate him but i love to give to preachers of the gospel, where my legs cant reach let my money reach its my motto for evangelism.

Okay Ma i don hear

nuella2:
So my point is the gospel is free but christians need to put in money to preach this free gospel bc we cant pay the television stations with the blood of Jesus.

It's good to see you agree the gospel is free I am not so sure now but i don't think people are against giving. Maybe people criticize the way pastor coerce/trick the congregation into parting with the monetary content of their wallet or purse You should also expect people to react when this funding is spent on activities or transactions that does not promote the gospel. an example is the church purchasing a private jet for the pastor.

mabell:
Unconditional Blessings – Sunday June 26, 2011 – Pastor Chris

Unconditional blessings hmmmm, this is interesting

mabell:
We’re sharers and participators in the blessings and benefits of the Kingdom-life reserved for all God’s children. This happened when you were born again; you were born with an inheritance. You don’t have to try to “obey” the law for God to bless you; you were born blessed (Ephesians 1:3).

Members are born blessed abi no need to obey the law for God to bless you abi so what all this talk about tithe and sowing seed left, right and center

mabell:
Maybe i should make myself clearer
The gospel, to the recipient could be free but to to the one who preaches it will entail the use of money
The people that gave out gideon's bible spent millions on that project but the people who recieved it spent nothing
that's what i mean

My sister, we are fully aware you can't preach the gospel at zero logistic cost but that still does not change the fact that gospel is not for sale. As long as you don't charge for a service rendered, that service is free. simple

nuella2:
The gospel is free but preaching the gospel is costly. The white pple that came to Africa to preach the gospel did so free but they travelled down here, their welfare and other things were supported by pple that gave sacrificially. So even if you want to preach from village to village you still need money to do the work, like transportation, feeding etc.

You know i am yet to figure out the purpose of this thread YES, the gospel is free if pastor incur cost to travel to my village nko does that change anything or are you saying i should pay for travel & accommodation cost I am beginning to see this as an attempt to justify the need for invoicing the potential beneficiaries of the gospel. I can imagine a visiting pastor (to my village) with the following comment. "my brother, you know i am giving out this message for free, but em, you see. . i had to em em borrow some money from my neighbour in addition to the little money i was having to come down here. I am not asking you to pay for this free message, but nna, i just need a little something from you to enable me return the money i borrowed and compensate me for my effort here"  

nuella2:
It will even cost much more if you are to use modern day technology for evangelism, it will cost mega cash to do so. That do not mean pple shld pay to receieve the gospel but preachers and partners of the gospel need to put money into the gospel.

Most times pple make so much noise abt what the missionaries did when they came to Africa, that is good but such pple give #50 offering in church  out of so much they have and expect things to just happen. How much do you put into the work? If everybody shld give #1000 can we even take the gospel to the next country? Everybody ought to give at the level in which God has blessed him, we shld all give our best. If God has blessed you in millions you shld not be giving #1000 if you really love God.

If the missionaries depended on offerings they will not build any school or hospital. Pple were giving in millions to do good works and preach the gospel freely. Someone will say but the offerings of churches are so much this days, anyway the cost of maintenance and running a church is not cheap too this days.

Is this an appeal for more funding or you are asking for a refund

Joagbaje:
Do you understand the implication of this? It means that the preachers should be supported . Look at verse 4 again.

. . . 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town

Staying there means, welfare support, clothes ,feeding,shoes .

This should not be interpreted to mean the disciples went from one house to the other in any town they visited. It possible the support was from the house owner alone, while they go about preaching.

Joagbaje:
You have to be more specific . If people give in a church. Are you saying they are not blessed for it?. Pls make it clear scripturallly.

Funny you are asking for specifics

Joagbaje:
Did Jesus receive money? Yes he did. But you are not. Lear on the purpose when you say "for bringing the good news" that's a different thing. And that's the problem I'm trying to address. We generalise issues.