₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje:
when the phrase is used . "the gospel is supposed to be free" it is often wrongly applied. When people give in church for example, other people cry fraud! The gospel is supposed to be free. Other times we hear things such as . "you don't need money to preach the gospel"

The way I see it, giving in church and hearing/listening to the gospel are two unrelated events (from a cost perspective). Now to your question; i would say YES, the gospel is meant to be delivered free, rendered without charge to the potential beneficiaries.

Joagbaje:
From my understanding.The gospel  should be preached to people free, sometimes we can even give them extra . Like food and clothing etc . But the preaching of the gospel is not free. It cost the sacrifice of those who are involved.

Support to the preacher does not mean the gospel is not free sir. When governments provide free education or healthcare, they don’t call it ‘partially’ free education, do they? The fact that government will incur cost to provide it does not change anything; it’s still free education or healthcare. Asking if the gospel is free is akin to asking if salvation is free. Knowing that Christ paid the price, can we then say salvation is not free?

Joagbaje:
So for the receivers is free. But on the other side of preachers and organisers. It cost a lot and[b] the two should not be confused .[/b]

this is one reason i need you to be specific; to avoid confusion.

mabell:
The gospel of Jesus is far from being free though you don't have to pay for it

So, what are you saying? is the gospel free or at a (huge) cost?

Jo, i think you need to be a bit more specific. Do you refer to the cost of the gospel to the beneficiary (soul to be won over) or cost to the pastor/preacher preaching the gospel?

Bearshare:
From your response i can deduce that "there is nothing wrong in giving money to my pastor" even if he has numerous landed properties and state-of-the-art automobiles. right?

Afterall like you even stated "we should love our neighbor" which includes my pastor.

You know some of us don't really have much to say about the giving thing, from the payee's perspective. Please go right ahead and 'love' your pastor you can even sell your properties and hand over your life savings to your pastor already loaded it's your money and you can do whatever with it. Does doing that make you a fraud? if you love your pastor that much, then i don't think so if anybody is going to prison, it's more likely to be your pastor (probably after you realized he tricked you into surrendering your life's worth, and maybe after you must have soaked garri for six months )

Like i noted in my last post, the issue is all about the sermon from the pulpit

Bearshare:
Yes it is even more an heresy when pastors take advantage of their psychological influence over their innocent flocks. But is it really wrong to give moneys to pastors?

No, it's not. Christ says we should love our neighbours, the pastor inclusive. I will gladly give to a pastor if there is a need for it. The problem is the way pastors go about arm-twisting members to 'drop' their 'deve'

CEC is more than a church, it's a business empire

Joagbaje:
So when pastor chris says "this vision ([b]un-[/b]believersloveworld ) is more than a church. He is talking about services . It is beyond congregational service. It is beyond the four corners of a building. We have different outreaches. We have satellite,Internet ministry, prison ministry. . . . .

It's still a church abeg, internet and satellite are just communication tools i do agree it's about services, billable services

Joagbaje:
. . . . publishing arm . Etc.

which yeye publishing arm the ROR will go out of circulation after oyaks is gone. Apostle Paul's publishing arm produced books still in circulation after 2000 years and will continue to be in circulation. Paul did not consider his ministry to be more than a church

Joagbaje:
And He believes it's wrong to teach christians how to prosper. They should only be taught holiness and sinlessness .

When pastors teach that the quickest and probably the only way to prosperity is by 'dashing' pastors money even your boy, inedi was here the other day telling us the key to unlocking national wealth is by giving to pastors Pastors take advantage of their position (influence over the congregation) to milk/exploit them. It's these teachings that is wrong.

I still am of the opinion pastors stay away from prosperity talks in church. Investment banking falls outside the purview of the average pastor (unless he is a seasoned banker as well). The gospel of giving and receiving as preached by our pastors is nothing but fraudulent scheme designed to increase church or pastors personal collections/revenue

newmi:
it is hypocracy for anyone to think that properity or the topic of money is convinient to be discuss every where else but in the church it is LUDACRIS.
d[b]oes the church exist illusively in space? or are churches built and sustained with the "blood of Jesus" as the transacting legal tender or perhaps a big, cheerful and "holigirized" "God blesh you" paid the bill for sound equipment, television air time or may be internet expenses.[/b]

All you succeeded in telling us here is that the purpose/objective of the prosperity gospel is to fund church activities. You've stated the truth here, it was never about the prosperity of members. if anything, the average wealth of members appears to decrease as the church (as an entity) and/or pastor's wealth increases

Joagbaje:
@Dandong ,

I heard you called my name.

This is truely a 'god' talking sorry posting Only a 'god' will 'hear' the 'post' of man

Enigma:
Their problem is that it is all about money ------- they see the gospel as about making people rich and they think it involves money etc.

I won't be surprised if and when these guys finally decide to monetize salvation i.e. i want my salvation in cash please, preferably in USD or GBP

KunleOshob:
@Zikky

How can he use a brain he doesn't possess?

Zikkyy:
There's an alternative He can borrow oyak's brain

Enigma:
If he does that, borrow Oyaks' brain, his last state would be worse than his first!

Damn didn't see that. I guess i need to re-booth my brain as well

newmi:
So tell me the copy of the holy bible you have l guess its free or perhaps you purchased it with the "blood of Jesus" (thats if u have a copy)

Did it ever occur to you that the Apostles and early Christian never used the bible and the gospel was preached Apostle Paul's letters constitute a good chunk of the NT, were these writings sold Please get a brain and use it, that way we can communicate, "sensibly"

newmi:
There is no place that suggest such, it is Salvation that is free.

I believe you must have read Enigma's post above prior to reading this but i like to ask, how will an unbeliever attain salvation do you think he/she will go to bed one night an unbeliever, and wake up the following morning saved How can salvation be free if you paid to hear the gospel

Romans 10:14
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 1:15-16
15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
[size=14pt]16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth[/size]; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

KunleOshob:
@Zikky

How can he use a brain he doesn't possess?

There's an alternative He can borrow oyak's brain

newmi:
The gospel simple means "good news"

So? if the gospel means 'good news' nko? you think that changes anything

newmi:
how can you say "good news" is free; does it make any sense?

Yes, it does make a lot of 'sense' , if your brain is functioning

newmi:
Luke 8:1-3
"And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and villages, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God[/color]

Did Christ issued ticket for these events? The 'sermon on the mount', was it a ticketed event maybe the apostles sold the gospel as well

2 Corinthians 11:7
7Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?

1 Thessalonians 2:9
9For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

Maybe Christ was dishing out tickets when he preached in various synagogues

Matthew 4:23
23And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

So, do you still consider my statements foolish & 'unlearned'

newmi:
sometimes l wonder if some of you guys own a copy because of the absurd, foolish and unlearned statements and comments that you make.

Was it something i said

newmi:
l am convinced that this were as much "financial" aid or support to the ministry of Jesus as much as it would being anything else because the context says ". . . he (Jesus) went throughout every city and village, preaching. . .", he wouldn't have done that fasting or with these women cooking all the way or perhaps walking his way even water well paraventure he did walked his way on water in areas that were not accessible on land what about his discilples ". . . the twelve were with him. . .". This is interesting because God deemed it important to include for our reference the fact that his disciples of twelve were with him . . . .

newmi:
. . . . .doesn't that communicate any sense?

The government might decide to provide free vaccination/health care services to Nigerians in the rural areas. We all know this will be at a cost to the government or sponsor organization like the Bill Gate Foundation, it's still free to the beneficiaries. Christ did not charge the beneficiaries for the good news You'll begin to communicate sense the day you decide to use your brain

Tee_Jay:
I see, and [size=14pt]where did the resources for building the ark of covenant/temple in the days of Moses come from?[/size] From Heaven? Was it not from the people and the offering they gave?

It's good you read Exodus 35, you'll find the answers to your question there. it's quite interesting

i love verse 5

4And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD commanded, saying,
5Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD: [size=14pt]whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the LORD[/size]; gold, and silver, and brass,

. . . . and verse 20-22

20And all the congregation of the children of Israel departed from the presence of Moses.
21And they came, [size=14pt]every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing[/size], and they brought the LORD's offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.
22[size=14pt]And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted[/size], and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered an offering of gold unto the LORD.

. . . . . and verse 29

29[size=14pt]The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work[/size], which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.

You will also find chapter 36:3-7 interesting. It an indication of what you get, if you are able to make true Christians of the congregation

3And they received of Moses all the offering, which the children of Israel had brought for the work of the service of the sanctuary, to make it withal. And they brought yet unto him free offerings every morning.
4And all the wise men, that wrought all the work of the sanctuary, came every man from his work which they made;
5And they spake unto Moses, saying, The people bring much more than enough for the service of the work, which the LORD commanded to make.
6And Moses gave commandment, and they caused it to be proclaimed throughout the camp, saying, Let neither man nor woman make any more work for the offering of the sanctuary. So the people were restrained from bringing.
7For the stuff they had was sufficient for all the work to make it, and too much.

So my brother, Moses did not rely on percentage/coercive giving to get the job done. You/your church can do it, if only you have faith

Tee_Jay:
Bottom line is a number of people are happy to go to church, seat in an A/C auditorium, dance to the choir's music not minding how the facility was put together or the fact that some people actually sacrificed to make it the way it is.

Yes, that's true. But you don't need to arm-twist them to contributing The 'give and receive' gospel does not yield true Christians, don't expect them to give when there is nothing to receive. make true Christians of the congregation, and they will give what they have, willingly

Tee_Jay:
Malachi 3:8-10

fact that tithe was kept in the temple storehouse is not an indication that it was meant for funding temple construction/maintenance

Tee_Jay:
So if everybody decides to follow suit tell me how is the church supposed to be run? The bills, the facilities; how are the various projects to be funded?

You don’t have to arm twist or trick the congregation into funding the activities of the church. What’s wrong with simply asking the congregation for the fund required to finance church activities? I personally see this as a test for any pastor, it tells the quality of your congregation. If they have truly been won over to Christ this should not be a problem, they will be cheerful givers. But pastors are fully aware voluntary contribution is almost impossible. Why, because a good number of ‘so called Christians’ are in church for the potential benefit. I very much agree with Frosbel regarding the need for Christians to ‘Seek the savior for what he is and not what he can give’.

1Godfather:
Anyone (or group) who has ever organized a big event will know the considerable financial strain it places upon the organizer/s. It is hardly surprising therefore that sometimes other larger venues may be rented to properly accommodate a multitude that may be gathering for a convention, seminar, etc. That invariably means that to recoup the costs, the organizers would make it a ticketed event.

. . . and i thought the gospel was free making it a ticketed event indicates a profit motive That will make pastor chris an entertainer

mazee:
4You will drink from the brook, and I have ordered the ravens to feed you there.”

5So he did what the Lord had told him. He went to the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan, and stayed there.

6The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook.

I want to believe the Ravens got their 100 fold returns as well

Joagbaje:
It continues from one level of glory to a higher level of glory till Jesus comes.

I don’t understand. There been a lot of saints post crucifixion. Are you saying they died without attaining perfection

Joagbaje:
They had scriptures to read. Paul told Timothy to study. Paul himself studied till he died.

NT scriptures I don’t think so. Probably OT related scriptures. The gospel was not documented at the time, so there was need for these offices. I think the role of the (genuine) pastor has diminished somewhat, with Paul’s (& other apostles) teachings now readily available to all.

Joagbaje:
It's like role of parents . You don't become parents by study . It's an office . You lead ,teach guide the children.

What and how you teach the child is usually influenced by a number of factors. It's not the same for the modern day pastor. i.e the pastor relies on teachings/stories from the bible. If the parent have to rely on a ’how to be the perfect child’ manual/book readily available in any book store, there is nothing preventing the child from purchasing this manual and reading it himself.

Joagbaje:
Ministry is of the holyghost. In our ever changing world, ministry also has evolved.

evolved ke you mean holyghost was not involved back in the days what has changed

Joagbaje:
We have modern day apostles still perfecting the saints in the post modern society

‘Modern day apostles’ are still perfecting modern day saints, no wahala But at what level of glory? Lower or higher than that of the apostle Paul I would say lower cos they still rely on the teachings of the Paul & co. No way can you be better than your teacher

Joagbaje:
Christ is building his church. He wants to perfect the saints unto maturity.

Joagbaje:
Ephesians 4:11-12
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

I like to ask, is this (perfection of saints) likely to occur in anybody's life time?

Joagbaje:
That's why he has given certain offices as gifts to perfect the saints.everyone could have prayed at home and read the bible.

I think these offices were more useful in the era of the apostles, why? there were no NT documentations at the time Teachings were based on the knowledge of the apostles. Now we have the documentions, pastor read the bible for info, zikkyy also read the bible, what's the difference okay, maybe some MOGs attended bible school (to acquire scripture twisting skillz ) and read the bible more often (being a profession) The pastor is adding nothing new (except for innovations like 'prosperity', 'seed sowing' tithing', and 'you are god' thingy ) and even their handouts/books (usually sold at a premium) is nothing more than pastors own intepretation of the bible So who's truly being perfected

JeSoul:
Sometimes I feel like the posters in this section are so spoiled . . . just go and see how cutthroat and brutal it is in the politics and romance sections . . . small yab and they're peeing their pants and crying for mods.

Ha na wa oh e be like you vex small

Tonye-t:
Let the brawls and quarrel begin continue afterall what is life without fun and excitements.

@Tonye-t

Good talk

nlMediator:
Isn't this different and directly contradictory to your earlier claim that what protects christians is a "force-field" of positive confession? And doesn't the quote tally with my point that every christian is already under the protection of God and should stay conscious of that fact?

Jo will tell you that's a different type of protection

Joagbaje:
The third level of meditation involves talking out loud. Sometimes, it might become necessary for you to shout or roar the Word!

This one no be meditation again oh

aletheia:
. . .nothing new from the OP. Another spin on "revelation". I suppose this thread will probably die a quick and painless death, since Jo is going to shy away from further posting.

i would have prefered it very slow and painnnful

InesQor:
I think Ðip▓§hïtë is female. There is only one person I know who can talk like this: it's a deliberately muffled voice behind a much more intelligent mask.

Ðip▓§hïtë is definitely male probably somebody not happy with DS

Snowwy:
They meant it for evil but just see what it eventually turned out to be.

What are you talking about

the sad bit is that 'controversy Jo' is somewhere reading this, smiling and puffing on his cuban cigar

Martian:
Well, I hope he doesn't serve you with "medium rare" truth tainted with E Coli. I wouldn't want you to have food truth poisoning. You should smell it before you eat it and Chef Joagbaje's restaurant.

That's not my 'portion' i do expect some garnishing/spice from the ROR though

Martian:
I guess what he'll say is, the greater truths are whatever your church's doctrines are and the lesser truths are other church's doctrines.

If Jo adopts this approach then there would be no need for this thread i think Jo is 'cooking' up something quite different i hope he will be back when he's done with the 'cooking' Jo, i want my truth well 'done' please