₦airaland Forum

toba:
I still await u to give me verifiable evidence of how a church is now a business

I am not close to your church admin, so there is no way i will know, abi.

toba:
is that all u could deduse from my post? kindly go review it to decode the uncoded message i was passing.  Is there anything that suggests we were chasing  N200,000 with N500,000?

whatever gave you the impression that i was referring to your post you did not think i was also passing a message utilizing info obtained from your post?

toba:
Bros since i ve now become a good guesser, cant u answer the rhetoric your self?

If you've been reading, you would have observed the question already been answered.

toba:
Isnt it obvious that u never fully understood my post before commenting and quoting same?

No it's not obvious.

toba:
Whats your evidence that it a wasteful spending?

No statistics to show that you have received value for money.

toba:
U have just been equivocating with your responses so far. Are the numbers of pple to propagate the gospel of christ limited and restricted?

It's easier if you ask for clarification.

toba:
Are u asking me such a rhetorical question?

You guessed right

toba:
U never fully understood the premise of my post before quoting same.

you think so?

toba:
I will ask u were we told in the bible the specific approach to adopt in trying to convey the message of the gospel? were We also restricted to a particular sect or to the entire world?

believing there are 'no restrictions' is not a license for wasteful spending. why over-burden the members with avoidable cost.

toba:
were We told in the bible that even christians can bacslide at certain points in their lives? were We told to stop preaching at a certain point on the assumption premise 'that a larger percentage of your target audience already given their life to
Christ?'

even if some other pastor is already serving this purpose?

toba:
Smdh at this response. because i said im close to the church admin means i should know church is a business venture? SMDH at this your very poor logic. Im not aware of any church being a business.

That's Okay. If you insist you don't know bout your church being a business.

toba:
Who told u that the church is advertising like coke, Pepsi etc and not actually propagating the gospel on Tv? so all the media publications by  preaching and reaching out to pple are adverts that can be compared to what other nonreligious brand put up on Air?

You mean you don't know No wonder you guys were chasing N200,000 with N500,000

toba:
SMDH. When he said go into the world and preach the gospel, was he regimenting us to restricted means?

What wrong with you adopting a means that yield the most returns? You don't have to adopt a particular approach because some other churches are already doing that.

toba:
In addition, thousands if not millions that saw the messages on OGTV and MITV throughout west african could have given their lives to christ and got breakthrough.

Did you ever consider the possibility that a larger percentage of your target audience already given their life to Christ?

Azibalua:
It's is very expensive,but it's not a problem the more expensive it is the bigger the church gets

the bigger the problems resulting in pastor calling for more cash

mabell:
The church continues because it is not a money making venture or organisation but its sole purpose is soul winning
so no matter the expenses made, the church will not suffer

. . . . .but the congregation can suffer

toba:
How im i supposed to know that? im not a full time pastor.

You should know. You were close enough to know the weekly expenditure and revenue

toba:
Have u seen a church like business before?

You complained bout the high cost of advert (charges by media houses). why spend that much on brand awareness (advert), competing with coca cola and Zenith bank (for attention)?

nuclearboy:
@dare2think:

According to above post, Charity is "bus-stops" AND "bridges". So wetin be your wahala?

That's in addition to equipping the police with patrol vehicles and other thief catching security gadgets

Joagbaje:
we used to have a yearly programme CRC (Charismatic renewal conference) there were so many miracles, manifestations and demonstrations of the spirit. It attracted people from different parts of the world . The crowd grew so fast every Year beyond what our property could contain, That's why the programme couldn't continue , till we have enough space.

They came for the show

toba:
yes the gospel is expensive cos the Media  charges too much for Adverts

It's business. They are in it for profit. Is your church in business for profit?

toba:
As one of those that are closer to the church admin, i know how much that comes in and[b] i know whats left after paying MITV and OGTV close to N500,000 every week[/b]. At times we even owe them in situations where both the offerings and tithes arent up to N200,000 weekly. Yet the pastors needs to be paid, church rent and other miscellaneous

It's obvious your marketing strategy is not working. If the advert cost exceed church revenue, why continue? you end up putting unnecessary pressure on current members to meet up.

nwabobo:
DO COFFIN SELLERS PAY TITHE? If they do, do they kneel or stand for the blessing of tithe where the pastor will pray that God should increase the source the tithers a hundred folds, just wondering!

and also, do they pray for 'good market' (patronage) like other businessmen when they open shop in the morning?

I don't think joagbaje is interested in the source of the tithe. Dat's why pastors don't ask questions.

Azibalua:
At least you know where the money is going into

we know why the gospel is 'unnecessarily' expensive.

Joagbaje:
my own concern is how people will just come out with some dumb statistic. how did they know the budget of a church with regards to publicity. its mere malicious assumption.

They don't need your budget. They worked with actual spending. What you paid to media.

A total of N2b was spent by religious bodies on advertising last year. This accounted for about 14% of N98b spent by major brands in 2010″ MediareachOMD (appeared on Businessday Page 8, 16/8/2011)

Religious Bodies – N2b (N1.52 on TV, N274m on Radio, N142m on print media)

Banking & Finance – N3.5b

Public Sector – N3.6b

Milk and Dairy – N1.8b

Soft Drinks  – N1.5b

Education and Imparting Knowledge – N1b

Culled from Businessday Page 8, 16/8/2011

http://resourcedat.com/2011/08/2010-advertising-spend-by-major-brands-in-nigeria/

nlMediator:
If you ask me, I'd think it would have been more appropriate to respond with the same level of graciousness that the gentleman extended. Your persistence in 'fighting' even when it is clear there's little basis for these arguments suggests that you have something else in mind beyond your claim to voluntary tithing.

My thoughts as well

garyarnold:
Although I believe it is misleading if not flat out wrong to use the term tithing when we are giving, all this debating is a waste of time.  As long as we agree that tithing is not REQUIRED for Christians, and that tithing has NOTHING to do with salvation, we'd be better off using our debating time with those who teach that tithing is a requirement in the New Testament.  That is the real message we need to get out.

now you talking gary. tithe preaching, flock 'milking' pastors are the main problem they should be the focus of your message. am not so sure you won't get much out of the tithe payers.

wordtalk:
it still boils down to being open so that others may question you. That is not saying that they are questioning what you do - you question their reasoning, then be open to others questioning yours.

That has never been an issue. what you really want is some 'hot juicy gist' bout what i do. too bad

ogajim:
Pastor JoAgbaje don come again coming off the bench for viaro/pilgrim.1/(later day) Wordtalk .

Jo dey enter game from 89th minute due to lack of stamina. The man is one central defender that's so good at scoring own goals

Joagbaje:
You are adding your own interpretation now. We work and make a giving, we recieve a harvest. We live on harvest. The first thing God gives us is opportunity to sow seeds.

Oga Jo, which one be this again we work and make a giving? what happened to receiving from our work? is that different from the harvest? how do you give the fruit of your labour when you have not received? you see yourself na you are desperately trying to justify the sermon and in the process provide further evidence that the whole thing was 'wash-wash' (scam)

nlMediator:
I believe that giving brings rewards. But giving based on wrong teaching and wrong motives may not be rewarding, accounting for why many are persuaded to give in the church and still lack consistently. Better to give 5 Naira out of sound motive and right knowledge than 500 naira out of the wrong ones.

Thank you my brother. But i don't think Jo will agree with you, knowing his objective is to collect that N500 from members.

Joagbaje:
Will you quarrel with the bible? Why are you guys always afraid of money? Is money a God to you or a servant? Did the post say you should bring the money to CEC ? Why are you worshiping money so delicately like this. It's only an inStrument and a tool to serve God .

Oga Jo, forget this your talk of one being afraid of money or worshiping money i am of the view that sermon was meant for deposit mobilization or fund raising.

wordtalk:
No, you assumed that tithers 'stick to' a tenth, not that tithers 'tithe 20%'.

Zikkyy assumed where, when, how

wordtalk:
The usual anthem sung by anti-tithers is that tithers 'stick to' nothing more than a tenth in all their giving

that's anti-tithers, not zikkyy never knew anti-tithers have their own anthem

wordtalk:
and I merely commented that the 'stick to' issue is an anti-tithing fallacy of their own fancy, since it is not true.

i honestly don't know what you are talking about here

wordtalk:
t is again a strawman you're bringing up. You can't just lump everyone into the same box and then make unjustified conclusions. Yes, people who tithe also give in other ways; but that is a very different thing from the idea that tithers 'stick to' a tenth - no more or less!

the bit highlighted, where is that from let's read zikkyy's post one more time

Zikkyy:
so why do you guys advise people to stick to a tenth when they can give 99%. You can just imagine the returns on investment when you sow 99% of your earnings

1. what has zikkyy's comment that pastor's 'advise people to stick to a tenth' got to do with what the payer actually pays/give?
2. why would zikkyy assume that tithers stick to a tenth (no more or less), when i already recognized pastor anita's advise that peeps should remit their tithe, first fruit, seed and other offerings in my first post

madam/sir wordtalk, biko, abeg you, i was only only referring to tithe as a source of giving and not the totality of giving. what you've done was 'to assume zikkyy assumed' you know that's not right

wordtalk:
However, I have encountered so many anti-tithers in their arguments and efforts to see a complete end to any mention of Christians tithing - that is the thrust of their campaign. It is not about fleecing, for there are many ways that people are being fleeced or milked. Yet, after all said and done, those afore-mentioned anti-tithers who pretend that their campaign would bring about an increase in Christian giving have rather seen a huge decline! Whenever this issue is raised, you find only a deafening silence from those who pretend they can teach others how not to give a tenth while assuming that anyone who even remotely mentions tithing should be black-listed!

This is news to me. I never knew that an objective of the anti-tithing campaign was to bring about an increase in Christian giving. i personally do not think giving should be the focus, rather the motive behind every giving should be our concern. I would like to ask if an explanation was provided for the huge decline in giving

wordtalk:
True, I have not read all your posts; but I know enough to conclude it would be wasted effort.

Yes, it would be a wasted effort, seeing that you derive some joy mis-interpreting zikkyy's posts

wordtalk:
Trying to tar someone with a brush simply because they are not in your bandwagon is not a good way to promote or invite dialogue.

na wa for you what exactly has zikkyy done to frustrate dialogue

wordtalk:
FYI, I am not a pastor, even though I'm persuaded to tithe as a Christian.

Okay.

wordtalk:
If it is okay to question the reasoning behind what people do, you should also be open to being questioned yourself - it is a two-way traffic in dialogue. It doesn't bring out good reasoning when someone tells another how not to give and yet they themselves are not open to being questioned.

I will only question the reasoning behind somebody's giving when it's made public. I am not going to squeeze it out of that person. read my post again, i did say it's likely to be when that person attempts to sell that reasoning to a third party (in public). That said, i will agree that i do question the reasoning behind what people do but never questioned WHAT THEY DO! in the course of any discussion, i am very likely to provide my own reasoning for seeing it the other way. IT'S ALWAYS A TWO-WAY TRAFFIC DIALOGUE What i don't provide is WHAT I DO. If you want reasoning, i'll give it to you

wordtalk:
You can leave others to let the matter be between them and God, rather than try to act like you were His personal secretary!

I don't interfere in matters that should be between somebody and his/her God that's why i focus on message from the pulpit (or when wordtalk attempts to preach tithe on NL), that's information for public consumption. I have every right to give my opinion on such matters

wordtalk:
Lol, you get it all wrong! Many people who tithe are not sticking to a tenth

Do you tithe 20%? show me a tither that tithe more than or less than 10%

wordtalk:
you will find in most cases that their giving exceeds a tenth of their resources.

You are not saying anything new. we are fully aware that people give 10% and still give first fruit, special seed, general offerings, offer 7, and any other pastoral demand

wordtalk:
Anti-tithers often bring up a strawman argument that 'tithers' stick to 10%, which is not true;

Good you said 'anti-tithers'; not zikkyy

wordtalk:
whereas I have found many anti-tithers claiming they 'give, give, give far greater than 10%' where in fact their arguments betray they are very stingy.

well, i don't know anything about this i don't think have ever talked about my giving on NL

wordtalk:
A question I often ask is this: have anti-tithing arguments increased giving in Christianity?

Maybe the purpose of the argument was never to drive increase in giving but to encourage pastors to stop twisting the scriptures to discourage the 'milking' of the congregation discourage the fleecing & 'skinning' (applicable to sheeps with little or no wool ) of the flock

wordtalk:
Do you give 99% of your own resources? I'm not putting you on spot; but then there's no reason to mock at what others are doing when you yourself cannot show how you exceed what you're complaining about in reality.

If you've ever taken time to read my posts, you will observe my focus is the message from the pulpit and from any other pastor wanna-be (like you, when you sometimes defend the preaching of the tithe on behalf of the pastor). I have no reason to mock what others are doing, i question the reasoning maybe, (especially when it is being recommended to a third party) but not how you chose to give and let me repeat that i have never discussed my giving here and i don't intend to. You want me to give you 'hot gist' bout my giving abi nothing for you It's between zikkyy and the Almighty

wordtalk:
As for your yet-to-be published-book, do not aim at attacking or ridiculing that man's ministry - remember Romans 14:4. Don't focus attention so much on him as if you have axes to grind with him: the effect may turn round upon you.

@oluti, this is very good advise from wordtalk. Something you should consider.

Joagbaje:
He thus established a spiritual principle which implies the more you give, the more you’d receive.

so why do you guys advise people to stick to a tenth when they can give 99%. You can just imagine the returns on investment when you sow 99% of your earnings

Joagbaje:
God already took the responsibility to supply all your needs; not through the labour of your hands,

while i agree that God already took the responsibility to supply all our needs, the above is stated with an intention to 'milk' the congregation. this is 419 So people should labour/work for oyaks & anita? Church members should surrender their earnings to oyaks as God will supply all their needs. how? via manna? or they will win the lottery?

Joagbaje:
Always cash-in on every opportunity to give in the house of God. Be prompt to pay your tithes, your first-fruit offerings, special seed offerings and other free-will offerings. Never let opportunities to give pass you by unutilized.

na wa oh. after paying all this, there will be nothing left to give to him that needeth

Joagbaje:
“Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth” Ephesians 4:28.

God2man:
Directly or Indirectly, we are all paying tithe, some are paying to the hospital, some are paying to armed robber and the rest.

Are you saying some people pay 10% of their monthly earnings to armed robbers?

wordtalk:
Are you saying that NOBODY gives tithes out of love for God? Why do anti-tithers get so reactive in this manner?

com'on your anger should be directed at pastors, not zikkyy the above is a misquotation of zikkyy's post

Joagbaje:
It's based on our love and honour for God.

Stop deceiving yourself. How many people pay tithe out of love for God?

wordtalk: How are they separated in the statement that the tithes were offered as heave offering in Numbers 18:24?

Whether offered as heave or wave offering is not the issue. The offering remains a tithe and it was strictly for the Levites. It does not take the place of guilt, sin, cereal offerings. Why is that difficult to understand.

Quote from wordtalk:
"The problem with the kind of arguments you espouse is that you simple refuse to consider what is said. If 'A' is offered as 'B' in context of a verse, does it not imply that 'A' is considered as 'B' in context of that verse? Is that any different in the statement: "the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD"??"

If i offer a tenth of my monthly income as thanksgiving, and at some other time continue to offer a cattle as thanksgiving anytime i make a successful trip to & from my village. Maybe i also offer a Prado SUV as thanksgiving at the end of every month. The tenth does not replace the Prado or cattle. The tenth is a thanksgiving, but it is not the only item i bring for thanksgiving.

The tithe is offered as heave offering but it does not replace the other offerings. So, to say Paul was referring to tithe in 1 Corinthians 9:13 is very wrong.

garyarnold:
Tithes and [other] offerings need to be separated in Numbers 18 because the tithe went to the Levites and the [other] offerings went to the priests.  The tithes did NOT go to the Temple except for a tenth of the tithe from the Levites.

Thank you gary, i thought it was that obvious

wordtalk:
Then I went on to point out in verse 24 that the "tithes" were offered as "heave offering". Your mistake is trying to set them apart, whereas that verse says clearly - "the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit". Note -

- it is "the tithes" which they offered as "heave offering"

So, I really don't get why you would be asking 'what about other types' apart from the tithes. Please consider that verse carefully again.

Then I asked: what does "heave offering" mean to you in context of that verse? I feel that as soon as we endeavour to seek out answers to that question, the difficulty will clear up.

@wordtalk, i don't have the stamina to 'dance' with you i can read, and i did read that tithe was offered as heave offering. That's not the issue and you should not try to summarize numbers 18 as you did below:

wordtalk: True, there were various offerings (such as the heave and wave offerings in Numbers 18:8 & 11); yet, whatever they offered were in principle found in verse 21, where the Levites are in view - "I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation" (KJV).

wordtalk:
Oh, if you actually did, then please share your understanding bout it. I bet you would see things differently and come to see why Paul said "[On the same principle] the Lord directed that those who publish the good news (the Gospel) should live (get their maintenance) by the Gospel.".

i thought i understood what you meant by heave offering. i am begining to think i don't. educate me please all you see in numbers 18 is tithe as heave offering, we see more than that. we see sin, guilt and cereal offerings

wordtalk:
Then there would absolutely have been no reason for Paul to be specific when he mentioned those who served at the Temple and the Altar. But because he did, you probably would need to ask why.

Now, i m asking; WHY

MyJoe:
I grew up in an area where such beliefs are rife. There is only one thing I am sure of: everyone, including me, used to believe in the concept of akara-borne witchcraft, but I never personally witnessed anything. But Joagbaje and Natasha seem sure of what they have seen concerning this business.

I speak from experience as well

MyJoe:
One is persuaded to see Africa’s child witches of today in this light - kids hallucinating, or "confessing" "so they could go back to sleep" or admitting so the torture would stop. I've not seen the videos in this thread, but like Nuke said, I think it’s time we started looking beyond the obvious.

I agree that this is very possible and i do not support the torture even if the child was guilty. But it's difficult not to believe kids can do things (based on personal observation). How it works, i don't know.

MyJoe:
Men of the pulpit like Joagbaje tend to approach these matters with a certain approach and are always on the lookout for an opportunity to manifest power, hence I will not set too much store by his words here.

True.

MyJoe:
And if I had the resources right now I would propose bringing Martian to taste a few balls of her grandma’s akara if the ancient woman is still alive, with Joagbaje standing by with a crate of olive oil in case my experiment goes awry and Martian starts flying non-stop! 

wordtalk:
So, rather than yap on and on to separate between tithes and heave offerings, please read that verse again: Israel's tithes were offered as __________?? Yes, they were offered as a HEAVE OFFERING.

I then asked a simple question: find the meaning of 'HEAVE OFFERING' in context of that verse as regards the tithes in the LEVITICAL SYSTEM, and let's compare notes. It does not appear anyone had done so - perhaps you guys are still seeing them separately, whereas that verse says the tithes were offered as heave offering.

This is why your question and reaction was quite unnecessary in the first instance.

you mis-interpret my post. Let me summarize:

Numbers 18 does not deal with tithing alone. Other stuffs gets to the altar. to interpret 1 Corinthians as referring to tithe alone (ignoring other types of offering that were eaten by the priest) will be wrong.

My position: Corinthians passage was referring to the principle supporting people primarily working for God, and not to tithing as a principle.

I understand what you meant by heave offering, but it does not change anything.