₦airaland Forum

nlMediator:
I happily drop 10%. It does not bother me. And no pastor I have been under has misused church members' contributions. But there are core issues beyond the size of the tithe:

(1) The need for our practices to be grounded in the Bible.

(2) The need to be sincere in what we are teaching, even if it only takes one penny out of people's pockets.

(3) The need to explain things clearly. We keep on hearing that tithing is based on principles, but not one person has mentioned what these principles are. Yet, we're supposed to simply accept it.

(4) The need not to keep people in bondage or guilt if God has not imposed the duty to do a particular thing.

(5) The need not to keep people away from God's plan for them. E.g., X just received 100K Naira. Immediately, an opportunity came for him to invest the money and reap extra 50K by month end. If tithe is an obligation, he cannot do that. He misses the opportunity. If tithe is not an obligation, he takes the opportunity. With the new 150K Naira, he gives 20K Naira to the church (God). Everybody wins. With obligatory tithing, he only gave 10K Naira. Everybody loses. Now, if tithe is really obligatory, it doesn't matter that he only gave 10K since following what God says is better in the long run. But to be dismissive on the basis that the tithe is a small portion is unhelpful.

True talk nobody will be fighting over tithe if pastors do the right thing but they won't, cos they need the money

ogajim:
Is it me or does "wordtalkt" remind anyone else of "Pilgrim.1" (wait for it) "viaro"

I think we've seen this Ecclesiastical gymnastics on NL before especially on the tithe threads.

Na you talk so

wordtalk:
I think your comments would have been somewhat different if you had carefully read my response here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-724424.288.html#msg8873252

i don't think so

wordtalk:
You should have a broader thinking. If this is the first time you ever heard that tithe could be a principle in Christian giving, please read broadly.

Well, they are not available here on NL to prove their cause. on NL, i see wordtalk & Joagbaje. Can you get these guys to come over to NL But if you do have useful links, please provide, thanks.

wordtalk:
This is why I have mentioned a few examples of names which appear on a "list" and noted that even some anti-tithing theologians are in "agreement" with pastors who teach tithing.

The way i see it, anybody that agrees with the fraudulent preaching of tithe cannot be against tithing. It all depend on how you categorize people (i.e. pro-tither & anti-tither). for example, i can tell you i don't have issues with people giving a tenth of their income to the church (if that's what they chose to do), and at the same don't agree with the preaching of tithe. would you place me in the the anti-tithing category?

wordtalk:
Okay, that's nice. I should chalk this up for garyarnold who gave a "list of tithing opponents in history" - surely, those anti-tithers who oppose tithing don't know what they are talking about.

Yes, if they did believe tithing is a principle but can't explain what the principle is all about

nuclearboy:
@Zikky:

Please write me at. . . . .

seen. i'll do that later in the day.

Joagbaje:
Tithes and offerings are all based on spiritual principles .

Something you are unable to explain

Joagbaje:
Tithing is least in our givings, I still wonder why the fuss over it.

There will be no 'fuss' when the pastor stop preaching tithing as a Christian requirement

Joagbaje:
People give land ,cars ,houses.

if they give car and house nko what's my business

Joagbaje:
If a pastor want to deafraud why go or ten percent why not 50 percent.

no venture, no gain. Pastor should attempt 50% and see if he will be successful

wordtalk:
It all depends on how you approach the issue, and who exactly you may mean by "these guys" and "tithing advocates"

On this thread, i know of two people referring to tithe as a principle; wordtalk and Joagbaje

wordtalk:
if that includes the same anti-tithing "guys" who at the same time are in "agreement" with pastors who teach tithing. Whatever label you may come up with, "these guys" most definitely include anti-tithing theologians.

i don't know of any anti-tithing theologians referring to tithe as a principle. If there are, i think they also don't know what they are talking about

wordtalk: In very fact, Paul drew from passages of the OT Law on tithing in order to teach on support and sustenance for preachers of the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14

wordtalk: Have you read Numbers 18 and compared with 1 Corinthians 9:13? Is it difficult to see that Paul was referring to the Levitical system when he said in verse 13 - "Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?"

wordtalk: So, if you were looking for "even ONE example in the NT where the Levitical system of tithing was used to as a principle to encourage giving", you have it in Paul's epistle in 1 Corinthians 9:13.

I find this bit interesting. When you read Numbers 18, is it just tithe you see? 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 talks about ministers living off the holy things of the temple and being partakers with the altar, i like to ask what offerings actually get to the altar? what are the holy things of the temple? Is the tithe taken to the altar? the answer to that is NO. reading numbers, we see that offerings that gets to the altar includes Cereal offering, sin offering, holocaust and guilt offering. So why do you believe Paul was referring to tithe and not cereal, sin or guilt offering? I have to agree with Debosky that the Corinthians passage was referring to the principle supporting people primarily working for God, and not to tithing as a principle. I think that was a desperate attempt to make peeps believe Paul was in support of tithing.

Numbers 18:8-13(KJV)
8And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.
9This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: every oblation of their's, every meat offering of their's, and every sin offering of their's, and every trespass offering of their's which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.
10In the most holy place shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be holy unto thee.
11And this is thine; the heave offering of their gift, with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel: I have given them unto thee, and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house shall eat of it.
12All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
13And whatsoever is first ripe in the land, which they shall bring unto the LORD, shall be thine; every one that is clean in thine house shall eat of it.

Joagbaje:
Two common ways children get into it. Is through food or dedication. They do their own evangelism as we do ours. When they give a child such things his soul lust after. (a cursed food). The child finds himself in the coven in their midst at night. The next thing is not try and initiate the child by drinking blood. On the drinking of the blood ,the initiation takes place. Demons will enter into them. It is this demons that make such a child do wicked things. S[b]ome have killed family members,destroyed pregnancies ,ground vehicles, business . And all manner of wickedness you can imagine. The child is actually "inocent" or rather a victim as well.[/b] The demons needs a body to operate. Some children on their own will open up when an anointed minister talks with them. Because some of them wants to come out of it but fear hold them back.They usually  give them fearful instructions, like "YOU WILL DIE IF YOU TELL ANYONE"

The bit highlighted are very common gist in some areas. Whether you believe it or not will be dependent on the neighborhood you were raised or life experiences.

Joagbaje:
It's not just children . This thing doesn't know age.

From stories have heard, Jo could be right here as well.

@Nuke, irrespective of the tag (witchcraft, Demon-craft, whateva), some of these stories could be real (and i am not referring to the video). I have heard stories of kids (and even adult) carrying out acts similar to that described by Jo (knowingly or unknowingly; willingly or otherwise). How they do it, i don't know.

nlMediator:
Forgive me, but I've read most of what you've written on this thread, but have not seen where you explained the principles behind tithing. If you don't mind, indulge me one more time. Your explanation that the tenth is the principle does not satisfy, since the tithe itself is the tenth. Are you saying that God has a principle of honoring the tenth (of things) so that when we give a tenth of income, we're following that principle? If so, where in the Bible did you find such principle? Why did God choose ten and not, 9,8, 7 or any other number?Also, shouldn't we then be honoring him, in addition to income, with a tenth of other things - yet I don't hear that preached? And how often should we honor him with the tenth in a year?  For you to be consistent, our fulfilment of the tithe cannot be  a repetition of the OT practice, because that's not the approach you take with our fulfilment of other practices, such as circumcision.

What is the principle in a tenth My brother, it's obvious these guys will not be able to explain this theory. Tithe is only seen as a principle when tithing advocate are desperately trying to justify their position.

davidylan:
Acts 4:36And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

37[b]Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet[/b].

Even a Levite with a commandment to take tithe from the people is seen contributing, selling his land our pastors want to live the life of the Levites in the days of Moses

Joagbaje:
The flock has to be fleeced to that they can produce more wool. It is 50 50 win win for the sheep and the shepheard!

I think you should show me. Because it's from your mouth I'm hearing this .

Do you fleece a sheep with no wool? So if the sheep is not producing wool, you'll take the skin abi cos that's exactly what you are doing to the poor

Joagbaje:
It is 50 50 win win for the sheep and the shepheard!

You do agree that the pastor is winning abi but i don't think it's 50-50 oh I think it's in the region of 99 - 1 in favour of the pastor

njira:
How do we give to God? by giving to God's work, and what is God's work? God's work is the Gospel.

I think you should learn to separate issue of tithing from funding the gospel. We all understand that the gospel need to be funded, somehow I don't have a problem if collections, including the (freewill) donation of 10% by members is used for true missionary work. I think the concern is the lies/scripture twisting that accompany the teaching/preaching of tithe.

njira:
if i say so myself i have not really come to an understanding about the issue but am working on it

work on it very well oh don't let the pastor deceive you

Pastor Kun:
@pelezico
With biblical references kindly tell us how the bible defines God's tithe, does it bare any resemblance to the man made version being preached today. Also without twisting scripture kindly show us the passage in the bible Jesus was alleged to have paid tithes.

The man will not only twist the scripture, he will need to pay the tithe on Jesus behalf

Joagbaje:
Jesus endorsed tithing

23[b]Woe unto you[/b], scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites Joagbaje! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Yes ooh

Joagbaje:
likewise Paul.Nothing can be clearer than pauls reference here

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

The welfare for ministers in the temple comes from tithings and offerings . Same thing goes for the church.

Oga scripture twister, what is clearer Did it ever occur to you that the peoples tithe does not get to the altar. Did it ever occur to you that the high priest does not eat off the peoples tithe who told you the priest welfare was from the peoples tithe. If the pastor must 'chop' let him find a Levite to milk

pelezico:
The widows mite - our challenge as Christians
Luke 21:1-4 1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men that were casting their gifts into the treasury. 2 And he saw a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. 3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, This poor widow cast in more than they all: 4 for all these did of their superfluity cast in unto the gifts; but she of her want did cast in all the living that she had.

So, you can see that Christ would prefer you giving all you have you can see that it will not be the same effect when the rich man give 10% vs the poor man giving 10% You knew about this and you still allow your pastor heart to restrict your giving

pelezico:
To tithe is a command by God himself and is not old testament.  Tithing is not a ceremonial law and has not been done away with.

. . . . and the beneficiary of the tithe was never the pastor. God did not just say "take the tithe to the store house", he said "take the tithe to the Levite". The tithe was never for anybody occupying that position, if you are not a Levite you cannot receive the tithe. It was their inheritance God has not transferred the inheritance of the Levite to the pastor. If you must adhere to this command, find a Levite to receive your tithe.

pelezico:
Jesus never once said in any discourse on tithing that tithing is done with.  He said it ought to be done but so should the observance of the other things that ought to distinguish us as followers of Christ.

Jesus was referring to the Levitical tithe and not tithe to your pastor.

pelezico:
But the real issue is your heart.  If your treasure is awaiting for the kingdom and really pursuing His love you will tithe.

If you are pursuing God's love, you will not tithe; you will give all you have. Tithe is a fraction or you want just a fraction of God's love The issue truly is your heart, and you have allowed your heart to set a limit to how much you can love 10% loving is that all you want/have to give to the Almighty

pelezico:
Tithing is act of obedience.

Obedience to who God or pastor God did not tell the Christian to tithe, so i think you are trying to obey the pastor

inedi:
how do you explain luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me. because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;
my question is what is wrong in teaching a Christian that is born again how to prosper through the principles of prosperity that is in the bible.

What gospel are you teaching the poor? how to hammer abi so Jesus was not sent to the rich (just the poor), cos they are already loaded. they don't need the gospel you had to twist the scriptures for personal gains. BTW, are you training to be a pastor

Joagbaje:
Show me in the bible where Jesus or Paul built free schools.

No be who collect money (in tithe & offerings) dey build school? If Paul had decided to build a school, Christians will have access at zero cost. Paul gave out his teachings for free (his letters), what are you guys doing today, selling all sorts of publications at a profit to the extent of pirating Paul's work

Pastor Kun:
yet some lunatic was desperate enough to ordain you as pastor just becos you have enough manipulative skills to deceive gullibles and generate income for his cult, I really weep for christians who are being fleeced and led to perdition by your likes.

That's the main ingredient for pastoral success. Without such skillz there is no way you will pass the pastoral interview

nuclearboy:
Pastor Kuns  ?

of the The MOGs are liars Evangelical Church", abi? Or is it "Joagbaje & Oyaks baptist cancelling ministries"?

Please provide weekly church schedules for us, abeg

This is true oh Pastor Kuns, where is your church you suppose to dey market your church for here na abi you no want tithe and offerings in addition to the weekly schedule, let's have the list of items you want congregation to bring as seed (the items God want the congregation to sow). I hope it will not include building materials for the mansion you plan to put up at Ikoyi

Joagbaje:
Is it church duty to provide free education? Show me in the bible where Jesus or Paul built free schools. At least Churches are doing something, giving some people scholarship and we should commend them for what they are doing.

Oga Jo, i just don't understand why these posters are fighting you for saying the truth. when they know CEC is not set up for charitable purposes coca cola (NBC) makes ordinary pure water (EVA), and yet they don't give it out for free, and they expect CEC to be 'dashing' people money anyhow. CEC is doing more than Nigeria breweries and Guinness (put together) in Corporate Social Responsibilities. Nestle fit buy patrol vehicle and gun for police abeg no mind them jare

r231:
Bishop Oyedepo has now put up two out of the four private jets for sale. Though the reason for his decision, we don’t know but according to a reliable source close to the man of God, we gathered that it seems Bishop Oyedepo is now overwhelmed with the cost of maintaining the entire four jets which is estimated to cost millions of naira.

Members should contribute more. selling the jets would mean there is a limit to blessings. They should be considering a fifth jet next year

pelezico:
If you want to be blessed by God please tithe.

what about the non-tithers that have been blessed by God?

pelezico:
Tithing is linked to the affections of the heart. This is also linked to Satans one world system where man will not be able to buy or sell unless you take the mark of the beast. I'll explain tomorrow. To clarify Satan will use the love of money as the very snare to literally own you out right.

More reasons why i should not be tithing.

Joagbaje:
Have you ever wondered why we still pray,

So you guys pray. I thought the 'gods' at cec don't pray money cometh to me NOW

Joagbaje:
cornelius didnt get saved gradually , he was obviously formerly converted to jewish religion and he learnt the piety from it. but that didnt get him saved . even though he loved God, he had to be born again legally.

I don't have issues with the above. I was only responding to your assertion that works comes after salvation.

Joagbaje:
The works only come as fruits of the salvation.

Joagbaje:
The fruits comes after salavation.

We see Cornelius displaying the fruits of salvation even before he got born again. maybe you can provide further clarification.

WhyAWhy:
One of the schemes they had in place is this
1. Scholarship for youths in the church (doesn't involve children/relatives of ministers in the church).
2. Welfare scheme for widow and less privileged in church.

And you know nigerians now, they will want to abuse privilege like say na dem 20 Naira started the scheme

If the scheme is not being funded with the 20 Naira collection, who is funding?

mabell:
depending on the way the wealth was acquired, its use and reason for acquisition

What are the pastors doing with their wealth? The teachings in 1 Timothy chpt 6, also applies to them you know

Joagbaje:
The regeneration on the inside which is the work of the spirit should be your concern. You teach salvation and the holyghost does the conviction. The fruits comes after salavation.

I have a question sir; except for those that were born into a Christian home and grew up living the Christian life (being all they know), why would anyone be willing to accept your teachings on salvation? can it be because they were told somebody died for them? or will it be because they've seen in your teachings, principles that are in sync with their value system? Will the acceptance be instantaneous or will it be driven by a period of reflections? I do agree that the motivation for acceptance will vary, e.g some people will accept your teachings because they see it as a possible solution to life problems. I am saying this because i think it's possible for the fruit to come first. An example is the story of Cornelius in Acts chapter 10.

Pastor Kun:
@enigma
Wonderful + exemplary testimony of george muller you just gave. If only our so called MOG in Nigeria today could just do 5% of what he did, Nigeria would be a much better place today and the gospel of christ would be made true in the lives of millions. But today the rogues prefer to build monuments unto themselves, buy exotic cars, private jets, designer suits and generally live a vulgar life of obscene wealth whilst the very poor Jesus clearly instructed them to care about are languishing in poverty.

NL resident pastor will tell you the church is not set up for charitable acts, the primary purpose of the church is to spread the gospel. Charitable work is therefore not mandatory for the church, it's value added (if the pastor is in the mood) The way i see it, the purpose of setting up a church defines its direction. For Muller, maybe he was driven by the need to find a way to ease the plight of orphans. What was the purpose of setting up CEC, Redeem, MFM e.t.c, i don't think it was charity. So, i honestly don't expect these churches to do much in areas of assisting the needy. Should they be involve in charitable acts? i think they should.

Pastor Kun:
But today the rogues prefer to build monuments unto themselves, buy exotic cars, private jets, designer suits and generally live a vulgar life of obscene wealth whilst the very poor Jesus clearly instructed them to care about are languishing in poverty.

True. what do you expect from a rogue

FreeIndeed:
We are in the New Covenant today. Our giving is Spirit-led from a cheerful heart. The tithing laws are inferior to Spirit-led giving. The needs of God's people can NEVER be met by today's 10% "tithing" tradition. Our needs will only be met when we are led by the Spirit to sacrifice all that we have for one another. That is what the first Christians did in Acts 2. They did not try to pay tithes (they knew better). They gave like Jesus did on the Cross -- they gave all that they had. They were a living sacrifice (Romans 12:2). Just like the blood of Jesus EXCELS the blood of bulls & rams -- Spirit-led giving EXCELS Old Covenant tithing laws.

You've said it all. There is nothing more to add here. Our giving is no longer based on rules. The average tither just cannot come to terms with the fact they've been living a lie. I think reading posts like this is one reason why some tithe payers chose to fight here; you keep reminding them of the truth. They don't want that.

tunnytox:
yes the Pastors need to feed but definitely not by forcing members of their church with threats of failure etc to compell them to pay tithe. Nothing should be done by compulsion even our salvation is not by force.

I agree. it's just that the congregation could be stubborn, only willing to drop if there is something to gain. A good number of church goers will not 'drop' if there is no promise of blessings. So, pastor pastor need to be innovative, come up with various money yielding products that would appeal to the customers sorry congregation so my brother, it's business for pastor and some members (the business of give and receive).

tunnytox:
These days many pastors have devised several means of compelling their members to pay tithe, they'll do special prayers for their tithe payers while reiterating that for those members who don't pay it is the reason why things are tight for them.

See this as pastoral innovation

tunnytox:
Its the same pastors that'll be riding jeep, live in luxury while church members struggle to even afford 3 square meals.

Pastor is just smart (or smarter), that's all

tunnytox:
In Acts chapter 2 the apostles and early Christians ensure that every members of the Chritendom were catered for those who have excess sold their possesions and divide it all equally among the brethen

This model will not work in today's environment How do you expect the pastor to 'hammer' with this model

tunnytox:
but today all we are concerned about is who has build the best house in town, who is riding the latest car etc in fact salvation now has been relegated to the backdoor.

Yes oh pastor like to look good, live large and oppress the poor it's human. i guess

nuclearboy:
You challenge me that what?

I think he is challenging you to a duel to prove he has spiritual understanding of the bible, maybe

ogoamaka99:
Later in the BIBLE, Apollos was so useful because he could understand the BIBLE better because the teaching of Aquila and Priscila has great impact on him.

You mean Apollos did read the bible which bible

ogoamaka99:
They should stop abusing MOG or calling MOG names.

Nna, you should stop fighting for the pastors. i believe they can fight for themselves. We have pastors here on NL and they are not complaining You don't even fight for God the way you fight for pastors, why?

dare2think:
Neither can you pay God for Blessings, (atleast not the God I know of),

True talk, my brother

tunnytox:
i don't know why many preach this tithe issue as if their life depends on it.

Pastor need to feed as well so don't blame them for 'milking' the congregation

Micuilles:
you can just ussshhhhhhh!!!!!

i am sorry but this is not going to happen This can happen if your pastor agrees to stop 'milking' the congregation

Micuilles:
Do you guys pay your thithes? be it in coweries, yams, wheat or palm oil?

NO, i don't give a tenth of my income to the pastor

Febup:
www.Tithing101.com

@Micuilles, This is one course i am recommending i believe you need it it's free