Todaynatoday: Look at what Jesus said here in John 20:17
New International Version
(NIV)
17 Jesus said, “Do not hold
on to me, for I have not yet
ascended to the Father. Go
instead to my brothers and
tell them, ‘I am ascending to
my Father and your Father, to
my God and your God.’” Una see am?

What's your point?

The Father also calls Jesus God: "But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;" ~ Hebrews 1:8a

Sura 5.72 Certainly they disbelieve who say:
Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and
the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah,
my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates
(others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to
him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there
shall be no helpers for the unjust.

Jutresbien:
It'll be nice to see those portions where early xtians acknowledged Jesus as God in human flesh. What I'm familiar with is Peter's statement 'YOU ARE THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD'-Matt 16:16. 1ST JOHN 4:9 calls him the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

You really are not acquainted with the Bible.
1. Thomas after His resurrection called Him my Lord and my God
2.John says in the beginning,He was. All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made John 1:1 -12 which shows His pre-existence before He was made flesh
3. Himself said before Abraham I am
4. Peter said God had appointed Him both Lord and Christ Acts 2:36

This is the controvery: is Jesus God? Did He exist before His incarnation? Is He divine?

To all these questions, I answer YES.

A poster asked me to provide facts. The only facts I have are Bible-based and my personal experiences. If you don't accept these two, do believe what you like but remember that God has appointed Jesus to be the final judge

Gentle_J: Tank u my broda. U ve jst made my day.

THE Roman Catholic Church states: “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion . . . Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: ‘the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’ In this Trinity . . . the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.”—The Catholic Encyclopedia.

None of the scriptures he quoted proves the above.

The bible does not contradict itself, Jesus himself sai in John 14:28- the father is greater than I am. He asked that all his disciples be ONE just as he and his father are ONE. He stated again and again that he acted not on his own but as his father sent him so looking at the life of christ, we can learn a lot about his father thats why he said 'if u have seen me, you have seen the father'. Afterall col 1:15 calls him the image of God.

JAkpayen:

*confused*......too many contradictions



Okay please explain this below:

JAkpayen: @HerexG/Law-confessor

What does Acts 7:55-56 mean? (But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God).

It's interesting that on seeing that vision, Stephen went on to pray to Jesus.

"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” ~ Acts 7:59

Who should we pray to? God? or to any other person?

HerexG :



How will you explain this :
A man striped in the public
flogged over 30 times
With a whip that has thongs
Then taken to the cross.
Well, we all say Christ was crucified on the cross but don't have'nt sit back to ponder on the kind of excruciating pains He went through.

Here is a glimpse of excruciating pains of crucifixion

When a man is crucified on the cross, and he remains that way for long, he wil need to support the stretched arms and shoulder with the leg to transfer the pressure centred on the arms and shoulders but the leg won't support because it has been nailed.
In a long run, there will be a serious pressure at the shoulder joint (ball and socket joint) region hereby making it to shatter or dislocate. This was the excruciating pain that made Christ exclaimed "Father ! Why have that forsaken me" (He was with the sin of the world) .
After all that, the legs will need to be broken in order to confirm them dead, but Christ died before the Roman soldiers came to Him (It was prophesied over 2000 years ago by prophet Isaiah that non of His bone will not be broken) and this same Prophet prophesied His coming. Then they have to thrust a spear into His stomach.
Don't forget Christ has a nature of man and a God while on earth

How will a man go through all this just for nothing, that flogging alone will make Him denounce who He is .
Also study about Saul changed to Paul, Stephen. (I'm also a living proof of His awesome power because i was once like you ).
With all these i pray that you will have a changed of heart about your belief. God bless you.

Bolded will be a topic for another day ooooo! This is getting interesting.

**rushes out to get pop corn and Nutri-C**

So that day Jesus CHRIST died on the cross...did the God of the trinitarians die? Maybe that's when Lucifer planned his 'coup'...

But wait o...that means the Trinitarian God once died! Tufiakwa!!! That's not my GOD! My GOD has never and will never die! He sent his Son Jesus that we might have life and have it in abundance.
Rejoice! For Jesus has ascended to His Father and our Father; to His God and our GOD.

SALT1
I completely agree with the scriptural points you've made namely
1. that Jesus existed in heaven before coming to earth. I quoted above several scriptures which prove that.
2. That Jesus was sent and APPOINTED by his father as Christ(meaning annointed one of GOD) trust me, d fact that he is annointed by God, sent by God his father and never vice versa is prove that he is subject to God and not equal to him.

Jesus is SON OF GOD, there are very many bible portions that prove that and I'm sure you know some of them. YES he is divine.

THE ABOVE DO NOT IN ANYWAY SUPPORT THE TRINITY. GO BACK TO THE BASICS, LOOK UP THE MEANING OF TRINITY. YOU MAY NOT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY.

Chuksxp:


It's interesting that on seeing that vision, Stephen went on to pray to Jesus.

"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” ~ Acts 7:59

Who should we pray to? God? or to any other person?

You are not giving me straight-forward answer. Who was standing beside whom? Is it one person standing beside himself or two separate being?

Chuksxp:


What's your point?

The Father also calls Jesus God: "But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;" ~ Hebrews 1:8a

GOD said exactly those same words to david.....

Read ya bible well.....

Besides God Çalls all of us GODS.......but GOD will nevÉr call Jesus or any of us "MY GOD "...

If you had read john 20:17 well you would have noticed Jesus called the Father ""MY GOD"" and that his GOD is also our GOD.....

That scripture destroys the trinity left,right,front,back and center......

JAkpayen:
You are not giving me straight-forward answer. Who was standing beside whom? Is it one person standing beside himself or two separate being?

Jesus was standing next to the Father. Two persons here (still one God).

Now, your turn to answer mine. Is it ok to pray to anyone other than God?

Chuksxp:

Jesus was standing next to the Father. Two persons here (still one God).

Now, your turn to answer mine. Is it ok to pray to anyone other than God?

SMH!!!!!......

And where was the HOLY spirit??.....

HIM been travel??...

ijawkid:

GOD said exactly those same words to david.....

Read ya bible well.....

Besides God Çalls all of us GODS.......but GOD will nevÉr call Jesus or any of us "MY GOD "...

If you had read john 20:17 well you would have noticed Jesus called the Father ""MY GOD"" and that his GOD is also our GOD.....

That scripture destroys the trinity left,right,front,back and center......

First off, God never said those words to David. The psalm it's found in was by Korah. Secondly, that was a prophecy, which the main interpretation was given to us in Hebrews; showing it was directed to Jesus. Thirdly, no where in scripture are we called 'Gods' with a capital 'G'. Psalm 82 says 'gods' though it was referring to men of authority who were judges, but that a discussion for another day. As for Jesus, the Father calls Him 'God' with a capital 'G'

Chuksxp:


What's your point?

The Father also calls Jesus God: "But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;" ~ Hebrews 1:8a

That verse shows that God is one and not three in one(God no be bonanza)
I see you are tactically dodging 1 Corinthians 15:27

For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is
clear that this does not include God
himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who
put everything under him, so that God may
be all in all.

Chuksxp:

Jesus was standing next to the Father. Two persons here (still one God).

Now, your turn to answer mine. Is it ok to pray to anyone other than God?

i'm learning that is why I ask you to explain that Scripture.

ijawkid:

SMH!!!!!......

And where was the HOLY spirit??.....

HIM been travel??...

lol

ijawkid:

SMH!!!!!......

And where was the HOLY spirit??.....

HIM been travel??...

No.

But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, ~ Acts 57

Prayers are properly said to GOD through JESUS. So we pray in jesus name but address the prayers to the father- Matt 6:9.

If you are not trying to use Stephen's vision and STATEMENT to show that Jesus and the holy spirit are equal to the father, have no beginning and no end like the father and are of thesame substance as the father, then u r not trying to prove the trinity.

Jutresbien: Prayers are properly said to GOD through JESUS. So we pray in jesus name but address the prayers to the father- Matt 6:9.

If you are not trying to use Stephen's vision and STATEMENT to show that Jesus and the holy spirit are equal to the father, have no beginning and no end like the father and are of thesame substance as the father, then u r not trying to prove the trinity.

Yet Stephen prayed to Jesus. Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, still prayed to Jesus. Even though he knew full well we should only pray to God. He did so because he knew Jesus was God. And let's see what Jesus says:

And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. ~ John 14:13,14

Chuksxp:

No.

But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, ~ Acts 57

'FULL OF'? Meaning the holy spirit was not on the throne? Thats so unfair.

Chuksxp:

Yet Stephen prayed to Jesus. Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, still prayed to Jesus. Even though he knew full well we should only pray to God. He did so because he knew Jesus was God. And let's see what Jesus says:

And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. ~ John 14:13,14

Are you saying that the father and son and holy spirit are equal? Cos thats what the trinity doctrine teaches.

Peter calls the Holy Spirit God.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit" Acts 5:3a

You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” ~ Acts 5:4d

Jutresbien:

Are you saying that the father and son and holy spirit are equal? Cos thats what the trinity doctrine teaches.

Yes, they are equal. Same nature, essence, substance.
At the same time, I believe there's an order in the Godhead. Father - Son - Holy Spirit

I guess this was the verse chuksxp was referring to. Now open your mind
1 hebrews 1:8-9
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and
ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter
of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you
above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy

Doesn't that still prove that God is one. The verse says even God (Yahweh), your God (Yahweh). The verse here is still the showing the superiority of the one true God.

Jutresbien:

'FULL OF'? Meaning the holy spirit was not on the throne? Thats so unfair.

The Holy Spirit is God. He's omnipresent. He was on the throne. By the way, I don't recall that the Holy Spirit could be seen.

I have seen plenty mumu in this post, so let me shed some light to all those who doubt the existence of the holy trinity...
Our lord, Jesus revealed God's three in oneness rather gradually in order not to shake the deep and abiding faith of the Jews in the oneness of God :

1) he first revealed the father : Christ started by first revealing God the father. He begins with the same ancient Jewish doctrine. " hear O Israel! The lord (Yahweh) our God is one God" (mk. 12:29) and continues the familiar teaching of the kingdom of God (Matt. 13). But then, he shows how this God in heaven, truly loves us, cares for us and watches over us. (Matt 6:25-32, 7:7-11).

2) then he revealed the son : once Jesus has revealed his father to his listeners, he gradually reveals that he too is God. He is the son of God in a very special way, not just as we are. But the true and proper son of God, the only begotten of the father. He claims power to change divine laws (matt 5:21-48), to be lord of the sabbath (Matt 12:28), to be able to forgive sin (mk 2:5), to have existed before Abraham (Jn 8:57) and to be the only one hu truly knows the father in heaven (Matt 11:27). In fact at his trial, he clearly claimed to be God (Mk 14:61-62) and openly allowed Thomas to call him "my lord and my God" (Jn 20:28). Jesus is not claiming to be a second God for he says " I and the father are one" (Jn 10:30). As proof of theses claims Jesus worked countless miracles.

3) Finally he revealed the holyspirit : Towards the end of his life on earth, Jesus revealed the holyspirit. He promised to send the spirit after his ascension : "The advocate, the holyspirit, whom the father will send in my name, he will teach you all things" (Jn. 14:26). Chapter 14 through 17 of the same gospel indicates that the spirit really is a person, together with the father and the son, for the second person pronoun He and not it is used for him...

Apart from theses proofs that the holy trinity does exist... I have 3 more proofs

1) Genesis 1:2 :- "in the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth... And the SPIRIT OF GOD was hovering over the waters"

2) Genesis 1:26 :- here God said, "let us make man in our own image...." thus revealing that he (God) was not alone before creation. Jesus, the son was to confirm when he told the Jews "before Abraham, i was" (Jn 8:58). And Jn 17:24, Jesus talked about the love the father has for him "... Before creation of the world". The prophet Micah 5:1 tells us that the origins of Jesus "are from old from ancient times".

3) Gen 11:7 :- God planned to confuse the tongues of the builders of the tower of babel as a trinity when he said "Come, let us go down and confuse their language"

I've obviously made my point, if you have any doubts about the most holy trinity, then the devil is using you to ruin the doctrine passed down for over 2000years... I rest my case...

Chuksxp:

Yes, they are equal. Same nature, essence, substance.
At the same time, I believe there's an order in the Godhead. Father - Son - Holy Spirit

Why is there an order? Equality means either HS-SON-FATHER, FATHER-HS-SON SON-HS-FATHER ETC

Artemisthe1st: I have seen plenty mumu in this post, so let me shed some light to all those who doubt the existence of the holy trinity...
Our lord, Jesus revealed God's three in oneness rather gradually in order not to shake the deep and abiding faith of the Jews in the oneness of God :

1) he first revealed the father : Christ started by first revealing God the father. He begins with the same ancient Jewish doctrine. " hear O Israel! The lord (Yahweh) our God is one God" (mk. 12:29) and continues the familiar teaching of the kingdom of God (Matt. 13). But then, he shows how this God in heaven, truly loves us, cares for us and watches over us. (Matt 6:25-32, 7:7-11).

2) then he revealed the son : once Jesus has revealed his father to his listeners, he gradually reveals that he too is God. He is the son of God in a very special way, not just as we are. But the true and proper son of God, the only begotten of the father. He claims power to change divine laws (matt 5:21-48), to be lord of the sabbath (Matt 12:28), to be able to forgive sin (mk 2:5), to have existed before Abraham (Jn 8:57) and to be the only one hu truly knows the father in heaven (Matt 11:27). In fact at his trial, he clearly claimed to be God (Mk 14:61-62) and openly allowed Thomas to call him "my lord and my God" (Jn 20:28). Jesus is not claiming to be a second God for he says " I and the father are one" (Jn 10:30). As proof of theses claims Jesus worked countless miracles.

3) Finally he revealed the holyspirit : Towards the end of his life on earth, Jesus revealed the holyspirit. He promised to send the spirit after his ascension : "The advocate, the holyspirit, whom the father will send in my name, he will teach you all things" (Jn. 14:26). Chapter 14 through 17 of the same gospel indicates that the spirit really is a person, together with the father and the son, for the second person pronoun He and not it is used for him...

Apart from theses proofs that the holy trinity does exist... I have 3 more proofs

1) Genesis 1:2 :- "in the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth... And the SPIRIT OF GOD was hovering over the waters"

2) Genesis 1:26 :- here God said, "let us make man in our own image...." thus revealing that he (God) was not alone before creation. Jesus, the son was to confirm when he told the Jews "before Abraham, i was" (Jn 8:58). And Jn 17:24, Jesus talked about the love the father has for him "... Before creation of the world". The prophet Micah 5:1 tells us that the origins of Jesus "are from old from ancient times".

3) Gen 11:7 :- God planned to confuse the tongues of the builders of the tower of babel as a trinity when he said "Come, let us go down and confuse their language"

I've obviously made my point, if you have any doubts about the most holy trinity, then the devil is using you to ruin the doctrine passed down for over 2000years... I rest my case...

I got put off my your first line. If you want responsible people to listen and reason with you, take out the insults, there's nothing christlike about throwing insults around. I'd prolly have read and responded. sowi.

Chuksxp:

The Holy Spirit is God. He's omnipresent. He was on the throne. By the way, I don't recall that the Holy Spirit could be seen.

same essence, same nature, same this, same that and yet father and son can be seen but not the holy spirit.

1. The Trinity Doctrine is
not taught anywhere in
scripture, but trinities
were common in
Paganism and were
prominent in Egypt and Babylon. 2. The beginnings of
recognition of this
doctrine started at the
Council of Nicea
approximately 325 AD.
Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible
was written. 3. The Council of Nicea was
organized by the Roman
Emperor Constantine and
he had the final say on
matters that he had little
understanding of. 4. Creed followed creed,
and eventually idols were
accepted as forms that
we can worship God
through, and Mary was
exalted to be the Mother of God and worship of the
saints was sanctioned. 5. The organized church was
built on top of these
creeds. The creeds were
and are the foundation
for many of today's
churches/denominations. These denominations are
different to the Body of
Christ spoken of in the
scriptures. This shows us
that most denominations
are still rooted in a creed and in particular the
Trinity Doctrine. Most
denominations still have
the Trinity Doctrine as a
foundation and this
doctrine originally came from Babylon. 6. The mother of these
denominations the Roman
Catholic Church
murdered approximately
50 million people, had
armies and banned access to scripture to
Christians. This time is
known today as the Dark
Ages. 7. Some relief came during
the Reformation where
the teachings and
authority of the Catholic
Church were challenged.
The Reformation restored many truths
back to the Body of
Christ. 8. As a result many new
denominations started up
and unfortunately they
held onto some of the
creeds and in particular
the Trinity Doctrine.

Jutresbien:

Why is there an order? Equality means either HS-SON-FATHER, FATHER-HS-SON SON-HS-FATHER ETC

I don't know. Do you prefer disorder?

For God is not a God of disorder but of peace ~ 1Corinthians 14:33a

Artemisthe1st: I have seen plenty mumu in this post, so let me shed some light to all those who doubt the existence of the holy trinity...
Our lord, Jesus revealed God's three in oneness rather gradually in order not to shake the deep and abiding faith of the Jews in the oneness of God :

1) he first revealed the father : Christ started by first revealing God the father. He begins with the same ancient Jewish doctrine. " hear O Israel! The lord (Yahweh) our God is one God" (mk. 12:29) and continues the familiar teaching of the kingdom of God (Matt. 13). But then, he shows how this God in heaven, truly loves us, cares for us and watches over us. (Matt 6:25-32, 7:7-11).

2) then he revealed the son : once Jesus has revealed his father to his listeners, he gradually reveals that he too is God. He is the son of God in a very special way, not just as we are. But the true and proper son of God, the only begotten of the father. He claims power to change divine laws (matt 5:21-48), to be lord of the sabbath (Matt 12:28), to be able to forgive sin (mk 2:5), to have existed before Abraham (Jn 8:57) and to be the only one hu truly knows the father in heaven (Matt 11:27). In fact at his trial, he clearly claimed to be God (Mk 14:61-62) and openly allowed Thomas to call him "my lord and my God" (Jn 20:28). Jesus is not claiming to be a second God for he says " I and the father are one" (Jn 10:30). As proof of theses claims Jesus worked countless miracles.

3) Finally he revealed the holyspirit : Towards the end of his life on earth, Jesus revealed the holyspirit. He promised to send the spirit after his ascension : "The advocate, the holyspirit, whom the father will send in my name, he will teach you all things" (Jn. 14:26). Chapter 14 through 17 of the same gospel indicates that the spirit really is a person, together with the father and the son, for the second person pronoun He and not it is used for him...

Apart from theses proofs that the holy trinity does exist... I have 3 more proofs

1) Genesis 1:2 :- "in the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth... And the SPIRIT OF GOD was hovering over the waters"

2) Genesis 1:26 :- here God said, "let us make man in our own image...." thus revealing that he (God) was not alone before creation. Jesus, the son was to confirm when he told the Jews "before Abraham, i was" (Jn 8:58). And Jn 17:24, Jesus talked about the love the father has for him "... Before creation of the world". The prophet Micah 5:1 tells us that the origins of Jesus "are from old from ancient times".

3) Gen 11:7 :- God planned to confuse the tongues of the builders of the tower of babel as a trinity when he said "Come, let us go down and confuse their language"

I've obviously made my point, if you have any doubts about the most holy trinity, then the devil is using you to ruin the doctrine passed down for over 2000years... I rest my case...

Pastor na so you dey curse your brethren inside church before you preach to them!!!

Chuksxp:


What's your point?

The Father also calls Jesus God: "But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;" ~ Hebrews 1:8a

Ephesians 1:17
New International Version (NIV)
17 I keep asking that the God of
our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious
Father, may give you the Spirit [a] of
wisdom and revelation, so that you
may know him better.

his point is that Jesus Christ have a God, who is the Father. Does any one of you disagree?