mdsocks:

Perfect question...is the family the sole property of the husband?


Responsibilities that you need to dispense with love and respect and not bossing around.

maclatunji:
Finally, you are speaking my language.

fellis:
Wow. Am I?

maclatunji:
Finally, you are speaking my language.

fellis: Good job mdsocks! Am impressed

maclatunji:

Yup! Your explanation of the submission/kindness requirements is spot on.

Part of the reason that this debate has dragged on is because many of you have this image of[b] 'Maclatunji, the Ogre with club in hand,'[/b] when you read my posts.

#LOL

Mr_Anony:
My friend, I am not disputing your "husband authority" neither am I disputing that your will is subject to God but then surely you don't ask God for permission when you want to eat or sleep or type a comment on Nairaland. You do it because you want to do it. God allowed you to use your willpower to do what you wanted to do. I am sure that you don't believe that God is controlling all your actions and making a robot out of you.

The question I am asking you is simple. Does your love allow for your wife to sometimes make you do something you didn't want to do in the first place?
If it does, then sometimes you submit to your wife's will. If it doesn't, then explain to me what kind of love you have that doesn't allow your lover to influence your will

BetaThings:

She is not. She is in the red corner with Mdsocks



But seriously why do we need to just argue about these matters without going to the fundamentals
The woman is to submit to the husband. That in itself places a lot of burden on the man
The man can only discharge this with empathy (what if she is my daughter?), sincerity (can I state my case without stuttering before Allah?) and fear of Allah
When a "stranger" is asked to submit to another "stranger", the one being submitted to carries a sacred trust

Meanwhile I am uncomfortable with the positions we typically take on matters like this
Male argue as if their dad are not men
Men female argue as if their mom are not women

Above all, why do people who go to great lengths to convince their parents that their partner should be accepted now turn around to see the same partners as "men", "women". Do we value each other's opinion before marriage only to now seek same from third parties after marriage?

fellis: Submission or to submit means to give in to a higher power or
authority. Giving in does not imply doing something willingly but rather, putting your personal preference aside for that of whoever
you are giving into.

maclatunji:

A man may make concessions to his wife not submission. Read Fellis response to you carefully.

As for being 'a robot', we don't call it that. It is called Taqwa (Consciousness of God and his rules). A Muslim is required to have this all of the time.

Islam is highly detailed, even to the point of having rules on how a man should be intimate with his wife.

Get used to it.

maclatunji:
LOL, I know what you mean but she has shifted her position from what she was arguing from the beginning.
She gets it and has admitted it, I can praise her for it.

fellis:
I didn't change my position good sir. Maybe you did not understand my posts very well .

fellis:
A man MUST make concessions to his wife in the course of their marriage. [size=2pt]A woman also makes concessions[/size] it is inevitable
What is the difference between concession and submission?

BetaThings:

Why do you guys not speak clearly for us to understand? Men are supposed to read moods, decipher intention etc
That is not helpful for communication



I am convinced that all these arguments about how dictatorial men are are for show
Women have their way MOST of the time. They know how to "play" us. Lady Macbeth did it excellently
A man once jokingly defined crying as the process by which a man's will power is defeated by a woman's water power

BetaThings:
Why do you guys not speak clearly for us to understand? Men are supposed to read moods, decipher intention etc
That is not helpful for communication

I am convinced that all these arguments about how dictatorial men are are for show
Women have their way MOST of the time.

fellis:
Lol. I am not expecting anybody to read my mind. Calm down. And why do men like stereotyping women with silly behaviors like this?

Women are not arguing just for show. Many husbands let their power get to their heads and end up treating their wives badly. This is something that happens in different marriages, it is not just made up stories.
If you give a person power and authority over another person, there is a great chance that the one with authority will abuse their power. Power corrupts. It takes a lot of self discipline for a person to have power over others and to not abuse that power and treat those under them unfairly.

fellis:
I didn't change my position good sir. Maybe you did not understand my posts very well .

fellis:
A man MUST make concessions to his wife in the course of their marriage. [size=2pt]A woman also makes concessions[/size] it is inevitable
What is the difference between concession and submission?

maclatunji:
You did madam. That post reflects your true thoughts on the matter. Anything you say after that is just to make it look as if you are not losing a debate. Bethathings as hinted at this ladies: find yourself a good man for a husband and when you do, drop all of this your yanga.

maclatunji:
Of course, a man will make concessions to his wife during the course of their marriage at his discretion. As for the difference between the two, check your dictionary.

fellis:
Maclatunji, the fact that women were told to submit to the will of men does not mean that men cannot submit to the will of women the same way that men were told to be kind to their wives does not mean that women should not be kind to husbands.
What if I told you that women can sometimes be kind to men at their own discretion? How would that sound?

maclatunji:
My dear, the two are not the same. A man will be questioned on how he managed his family starting from his wife. The wife will not be asked to render account regarding how she managed her husband. She will be asked how she managed herself in relation to him, for example, was she obedient to him or not?, his property under her custody and their children.
Equity prevails in this relationship not equality.

fellis:
Are you saying the wife is not under obligation to show kindness to her husband since she will not be asked how she managed her husband?

maclatunji:
Yes, she is obliged to show obedience not kindness.

maclatunji:

Yes, she is obliged to show obedience not kindness.

maclatunji:

Yes, she is obliged to show obedience not kindness.

bukatyne: Really?

fellis:
Please stop it. Muslims are obliged to show kindness to each other, whether they are married or not.
Your unwillingness to admit that husbands should sometimes submit to the will of their wives is making you say silly things.

mdsocks:

hehehe...mac...you just want us to know that the women have to submit to their husbands.

Let me give you a real life scenario here.

My mum was a career woman and was in active service when due to my dad's job which involved traveling around so often he needed someone closer to the kids for proper guidance and upbringing.

My dad brought this issue to my mum and they both listed out the best options which was that my mum resign from her place of work and forsake her career because of us the kids(NB: Not like she wasn't taking good care of us but he wanted closer monitoring like checking of assignments, helping with homework, picking them from school which my mum's work kinda prevented).

My mum after deliberations knew this to be the best option after due consultation she resigned and today we all know the results of this which is that we the kids are better for it. No where did my dad "order" or "command" my mum to leave her job but they both deliberated and everyone was happy with the end result. that's what you get when you respect your wife as a being and consult her on issues.

And you brought the issue of management principles. How do you achieve your goals in a work environment? Ain't it through team work and cooperation. Show me a good manager and I would show you someone who deliberates with his team members both small and big on what to do and how to achieve a goal and not someone who barks orders because he has the authority to do so. People tend to work harder when they feel they are part of the process and thus gaining you more success. Same way with marriages too bro.

maclatunji:
If it is a general rule that Muslims should treat everyone with kindness, why would you seek to portray a woman's legislated obedience to her husband as being dependent/tied/subservient to his being kind to her? It is not logical.

You are beginning to show all the traits that one who seeks to fight God's natural order of things will face- anger and frustration.

I can quote the Qur'an, hadith even management texts to back my claims, what do you have?

maclatunji: ^Putting welfare into heart implies that the authority lies with you in the first place.
Submission implies followership. Your husband submitting to wife theory has no basis in Islam. If you insist it does bring proof.

fellis:

First of all, Islam says the husband is the head of the house. I didn't argue that.
What I said was that you as the husband will have to submit to what your wife wants during the course of the marriage.
The man being the head does not mean that he would not be obliged to concede or submit to his wife's wants at any point in time.
He will do it.
That is inevitable.

Most of the time, the wife's ideas for the marriage will be better than that of the husband's. What happens in that case? Does the husband go ahead and stick with what he wants even when he knows that her suggestion is better than his?
Wouldn't it be wiser for him to concede or submit to what she wants since she has the better plans for the marriage?Women are told to submit to men and men are told to be kind to women, fine. That doesn't mean that there can never be any submission on the part of the man or that there can never be any kindness on the part of the woman.
There are different Hadith and Qur'anic verses that talk about living with each other in justice and doing right.
Part of doing right is leaving your own desires or wants for that of another person in order to foster progress and betterment of the well being of Muslims.

You have admitted that you will have to concede to what your wife wants most of the time so why are you now changing your stance? Or maybe your understanding of what submission is is different from mine. If you don't mind, you can tell me what you understand submission to mean in your next post.

maclatunji:
I agree with most of what you typed there but where we differ is your subtle attempt to equate what is legislated in the Qur'an as submission to the discretionary concession to his wife or even children.
When I say concession, this is what I mean:
1. compromise, agreement, settlement,
accommodation, adjustment, trade-off, give-
and-take, half measures Britain has made
sweeping concessions to China in order to
reach a settlement.

fellis:

So what do you mean when you say 'Submission'?