@Tornadoz,

It's funny how you summarily dismiss the evidence provided by archeology and you choose to go by way of selective amnesia in arriving at your conclusions.

I am sure the world of archeology will be alarmed by the conspiracy theory you have stated with regard to the motive of those who make these finds. It is so depressing to find an intelligent person like you condemning the life work of professionals who go about their jobs without an agenda other than to discover and present history to us the way it has been preserved.

In any case, the Palestines don't have to roam through Jerusalem to make any discovery that will tie them to the land.  Let them start off with where they live right now.  I can promise you that what they find on that land will still point to no other people but the Jews.  Across the wall built by Isreal on the west bank is the grave of Joshua - remember him?.  While the UN keeps telling us that the land is occupied by the Jews, the grave of Jews who live in the land long ago are still all over the place.

You know, one major reason behind this conflict is just the faith of these Arabs.  These folks cannot be separated from their faith and it is their faith that is making them do what they do. Do you realise that the Article 7 of Hamas provided by Davidylan is lifted directly from a hadith quoting Mohammed?  Here is what it says again: 'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees,  and  the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.'

It is obvious that they are just using the issue of land as an excuse to carryout this religious obligation.

To the one who claims he is a practicing Christian, may I remind you of the prophecy of the God of the Bible who said this:  Jeremiah 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Which land is been spoken of here if I may ask? Do you think that the God who made this prophecy wasn't aware that the Isrealites will be taken away on exile from that land and He will hae to bring them back?

TayoD, you know the point you just made about Hamas's sworn vow to eradicate Isreal has been made so many times. That point has been made several times in other threads here on nairaland alone. I guarantee they will gloss over that point. I swear some people have selective eyesight. They only see what they have in their heads.
There are some people who are just emmm, how can I put this diplomatically, a little slow at learning or reasoning objectively. It's not their fault though, they are usually born that way.

It appears this thread will stay alive. Let the cycle begin. **Grabs popcorn**

@TayoD

TayoD:

To the one who claims he is a practicing Christian, may I remind you of the prophecy of the God of the Bible who said this: Jeremiah 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Which land is been spoken of here if I may ask? Do you think that the God who made this prophecy wasn't aware that the Isrealites will be taken away on exile from that land and He will hae to bring them back?

To the one that is always quoting the scriptures to justify even lies I will explain why religous bigotry is reigning supreme in your analysis.

1. You are no different from the so called terrorist who blow people away based on his/her understanding of the quran because you are ready to support the same thing as long as Christians are the perpetrators.

2. Any part of the scriptures you quote will only make sense to a christian and as such you cannot expect it to be binding on the non christain who does not give a damn about christianity or the bible just as I am sure you do not agree with the quran.

3. Assuming your analysis makes sense why would Sharon give back part of the lands that were seized and promised to give more before he became very ill considering the fact that he fought in all the wars Israel ever fought but the last?

4. The hypocrisy plays out when people like you criticize Mugabe for returning lands to the original owners in Zimbabwe without any need for archeologists to even find anything.

5. You seem to always justify or support the wrong positions from Bush to Okotie. Why don't you ask yourself why people like us are almost always 100% correct in positions we take? It is because we base our conclusions on facts, truth, objectivity, equity and fair play not bias, hypocrisy, sentiments and lies.

Enjoy!

@Afam,

I am glad you are the same one that liken yourself to the terrorist.  My reference to the Bible is because you started by refering to yourself as a practicing Christian.  I suppose your being a 'practicing' Christain means you must take the Bible seriously and I indeed refered you to scriptures that I hope you will 'practice'.

1. You are no different from the so called terrorist who blow people away based on his/her understanding of the quran because you are ready to support the same thing as long as Christians are the perpetrators.

How many times have I so much as raised my hands or voice to demand the death of anybody?  You seem very much self-deluded.  I have mentioned in this same forum that anyone who advocates violence must necessarily distance himself from Christ, yet you say I will support terorism. You seem to have resorted to lies once again.

2. Any part of the scriptures you quote will only make sense to a christian and as such you cannot expect it to be binding on the non christain who does not give a damn about christianity or the bible just as I am sure you do not agree with the quran.

I sure agree with your statement here.  That is why I said we should perhaps resort to history laid bare through archeology by you are yet to provide any proof to substantiate your flimsy position.

3. Assuming your analysis makes sense why would Sharon give back part of the lands that were seized and promised to give more before he became very ill considering the fact that he fought in all the wars Israel ever fought but the last?

Have you ever heard of political pressure? Isreal has always negotiated and have given back some of the land which rightfully belong to them so there could be peace which you claim they are not pursuing.

4. The hypocrisy plays out when people like you criticize Mugabe for returning lands to the original owners in Zimbabwe without any need for archeologists to even find anything.

I assume you are not refering to me specifically by sing the phrase "people like me".  In any case, you don't seem to know how to compare apples with apples.  Is the land of Zimbabwe being claimed by people of different ethnicity?

5. You seem to always justify or support the wrong positions from Bush to Okotie. Why don't you ask yourself why people like us are almost always 100% correct in positions we take? It is because we base our conclusions on facts, truth, objectivity, equity and fair play not bias, hypocrisy, sentiments and lies

What positions on the individuals you mentioned have you been proven wrong against my stand? Your lies are not funny any longer you know.  Since you are into facts and figures, please provide us with the facts and figures regarding the ownership of the land of Isreal.  I have provided you with a recent one with respect to Herodium. I also refered to the only historical leader of the people we call Palestines today.  Please prove me wrong with facts and not this cheap attempt to wip up setiments powered by an ignorant hatred for a people who are rgithfully in their land.

@TayoD,

I do not have any hatred towards anyone and I am sure you cannot say the same about the arabs or muslims.

On your responses, I like them because you have again displayed the hypocrisy and bias I am accusing you of.

Your comment on Mugabe and land ownership shows you really don't have any clue as regards the problems there, maybe you have chosen to believe everything the western media is feeding you.

Afam:

Your comment on Mugabe and land ownership shows you really don't have any clue as regards the problems there, maybe you have chosen to believe everything the western media is feeding you.

I am not surprised that no has any clue as regards anything since you have declared yourself to be 100% right all the time!
Only biased people grasping at straws will attempt to compare the Isreali situation with that of Zimbabweans who were colonised by white settlers. Did the Jews colonise the palestinians? Can white settlers point to historical evidence of their ownership of Zimbabwean lands?

Since the forceful take over of white lands in Zimbabwe, the government has had to slash 3 zeroes off the currency to prevent inflation yet the iinflation rate is at a world record 2200%! According to you, we should give Mugabe a pat on the back for taking back lands and plunging his people into starvation and anarchy!

@ Tornadoz,
Your position is NOT tenable! Until the Palestinians can provide CONCRETE EVIDENCE of their historical ties to the land you claim belongs to their ancestors then you will keep dribbling around the main point.

@Afam,

I do not have any hatred towards anyone and I am sure you cannot say the same about the arabs or muslims.

I wonder if I can start to believe you now after the several lies you've peddled on this forum alone. I have moslims in my family and I am in the process of helping a muslim guy get a job in my company. I work with Arabs and I have them as neighbours.  I wish them absolutely no arm. I wish we can say the same for the Arabs and muslims toward the Jews.

On your responses, I like them because you have again displayed the hypocrisy and bias I am accusing you of.

Again you make conclusions based on your blindness and ignorance.  Where are your points?  Where are the proofs we ask for?  

Your comment on Mugabe and land ownership shows you really don't have any clue as regards the problems there, maybe you have chosen to believe everything the western media is feeding you.

Again you side-step issues.  Your art of lying is only surpassed by your ability to dodge issues.  The recent migrants to the land of Isreal now call themselves palestines and they claim ownership of that land. Can you tell me what the white settlers in Zimbabwe are calling themselves? And have I ever claimed the land is theirs or otherwise.  Please keep to the topic here as your dancing in several directions is only a ploy to deflect your lack of knowledge and proof of the main issue of this thread.

davidylan:

I am not surprised that no has any clue as regards anything since you have declared yourself to be 100% right all the time!

This is how lies start. Go back to my post and you will see where you avoided the word almost simply because your intent is to lie and misinform. Can't you say things the way they are? Must you twist and lie at every point?

Your response on Mugabe shows your total lack of understranding of the issues just as wrongfully claimed that Bakassi was handed over to Cameroun because France and Britain signed some documents.

@TayoD,

Enough of your games. You may reproduce any lies you believe I have stated here so I can either accept them and correct them or you expose yourself as the born liar.

Don't even ask me to reproduce yours because it will only be too embarassing for you.

Tornadoz:

I hope it didn't, but sadly it does. It is laughable to expect Jewish archaeologist and historians to say we were wrong all along, the land belongs to you Palestinians. History is always written by the conquerer and not the conquered.

And why have your palestinian brothers not offered proof to counter those of the jews? Where are the palestinian archeologists to show us with PROOF that they and not the Jews are historical owners of the land?

Tornadoz:

If only they were allowed to roam free on the land of their forefathers rather than having to carry identity cards to move from point A to point B. Do you honestly think the Israeli govt will grant "visa's and passes" to Palestinian historians looking for evidence that prove they hold a valid claim to that land?

1. To claim that the land of Isreal is the land of Palestinian forefathers is outright lying! Where are the archeological proofs? Can the Palestinians point to graves 2000 yrs old as the Jews have consistently been doing?
2. How many Jews are allowed to roam free in Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Quatar, Yemen e.t.c.? If the Jews were foolish enough to allow the palestinians to roam free, how many jews would be left alive?
3. There are Palestinians of Jewish citizenship working and living free in Isreal! According to the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics (2006), Arabs make up 19.8% of the Isreali population! Can we say the same of Palestine?
4. Palestinian historians need look no further than the lands they presently occupy and claim as their own. Let them prove that those lands belong to them first before they start looking at others!

Tornadoz:

However I did say Israel is a state and a member of the United Nations, and must have signed the United Nations charter and it has an obligation under that charter. Since it is not a regular army then it must be a guerilla army.
This is wikipedia's entry "a method of unconventional combat by which small groups of combatants attempt to use mobile and surprise tactics (ambushes, raids, etc) to defeat a foe, often a larger, less mobile, army."

This does not make sense! Since Isreal has a conventional army and is a has signed the UN charter does not shackle it from defending her territory and citizens who have been under constant attack from the demons of islam!
You claim Hamas and Hezbollah are guerilla armies and yet they have modern weapons of warfare that would be enough to destroy at least 3 African states!

Tornadoz:

Palestine is not a state so can't have a president. If you mean president of Palestinian Authority then you are wrong again because he is not a member of Hamas.
Palestinian Authority president is Mahmoud Abbas, and he leads the Fatah movement i think you probably meant Ismail Haniya , the Hamas leader.

Ismail Haniyah is the Prime Minister of Palestine and yet you erroneously claim palestine is not a state! Is England a state? Haniyah is the Hamas leader and yet you still claim Hamas is NOT a state army?
Mahmoud Abbas is the President of the Palestinian National Authority, this is as good as being the president of Nigeria! He is the leader of Fatah, another known terrorist organisation whose goal is the annihilation of the Jewish race!

Tornadoz:

Well it's taken the pen of another man (George Bush) to kill half a million.

i'm sure unbiased records prove the Sunnis and Shias did most of the killings themselves!

Tornadoz:

They are fundamentalist Moslem's no surprise there. If Israel was not a state and was fighting for independence you'll have fundamentalist Jews.

What about Hezbollah? Are they also fighting for independence from Isreal? What of al-queada? What of Iran? Did Isreal also "seize" their lands? What a load of rubbish!

Afam,

Enough of your games. You may reproduce any lies you believe I have stated here so I can either accept them and correct them or you expose yourself as the born liar.
Don't even ask me to reproduce yours because it will only be too embarassing for you.

Is it that you forget the things you write so soon or you are just unrepentant even when your errors are pointed out.

I already pointed out the fact that you calim I am ready to support murderers when in fact I stated that anyone who advocates such an armed conflict should distance himself from christianity. What have you done since then but side-step the issues raised.  Perhaps you should apologise for such a lie after which we will return to your acusation that I said anything about the issue of Mugabe and the lands seized.

All these is just another opportunity to derail this thread.  The simple question I have asked you since you raised the imortant factor of land in the Isreali-Arab conflict is this: provide us with scientific and historical proof that the land of Isreal belongs to the Palestines and their fore-fathers

Afam:

This is how lies start. Go back to my post and you will see where you avoided the word almost simply because your intent is to lie and misinform. Can't you say things the way they are? Must you twist and lie at every point?

Your response on Mugabe shows your total lack of understranding of the issues just as wrongfully claimed that Bakassi was handed over to Cameroun because France and Britain signed some documents.

this i know is offtopic but permit me this once as it will be the last time i will pay any reference to ANY of your vitriolics poorly packaged as posts.

Since you seem to accuse everyone of a "lack of understanding of the issues", can you kindly enlighten us rather than being so vague?

Here are excerpts from the ACTUAL ICJ ruling on the Bakassi case!

In Bakassi, the Court decides that[b] the boundary is delimited by the Anglo-German Agreement of 11 March 1913 (Arts. XVIII-XX) and that sovereignty over the Bakassi Peninsula lies with Cameroon.[/b] It decides that in this area the boundary follows the thalweg of the River Akpakorum (Akwayafe), dividing the Mangrove Islands near Ikang in the way shown on map TSGS 2240, as far as a straight line joining Bakassi Point and King Point.

Between Lake Chad and the Bakassi Peninsula, the Court confirms that the boundary is delimited by the following instruments:
i) from the point where the River Ebeji bifurcates, as far as Tamnyar Peak, by the Thomson-Marchand Declaration of 1929-1930 (paras. 2-60), as incorporated in the Henderson-Fleuriau Exchange of Notes of 1931;

ii) from Tamnyar Peak to pillar 64 referred to in Article XII of the Anglo-German Agreement of 12 April 1913, by the British Order in Council of 2 August 1946;

iii) from pillar 64 to the Bakassi Peninsula, by the Anglo-German Agreements of 11 March and 12 April 1913.

My error was in indicating that the ruling was based on Anglo-French agreements - it was actually based on Anglo-German agreements.

However it is clear that the ruling was based on pre-independence agreements between German and English colonial powers and NOT pacts signed between Nigeria and Cameroun in 1970 as you erroneously and arrogantly claim!

@davidylan

And why have your palestinian brothers not offered proof to counter those of the jews? Where are the palestinian archeologists to show us with PROOF that they and not the Jews are historical owners of the land?

Even with all these supposedly archaeological proof the UN still passed resolutions after resolutions affirming the land belongs to the Palestinians. The entire UN is wrong because ”it was rigged” is it.

1. To claim that the land of Isreal is the land of Palestinian forefathers is outright lying! Where are the archeological proofs? Can the Palestinians point to graves 2000 years old as the Jews have consistently been doing?
2. How many Jews are allowed to roam free in Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Quatar, Yemen e.t.c.? If the Jews were foolish enough to allow the palestinians to roam free, how many jews would be left alive?
3. There are Palestinians of Jewish citizenship working and living free in Isreal! According to the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics (2006), Arabs make up 19.8% of the Isreali population! Can we say the same of Palestine?
4. Palestinian historians need look no further than the lands they presently occupy and claim as their own. Let them prove that those lands belong to them first before they start looking at others!

They would not roam free in Israel if they had a country of their own.
A little research will tell you how the Jewish state was created after the second world war. Considering what they went through in Europe, a state was created.
Jews in Diaspora returned to what we now know as Israel even as recently as the 80s Soviet Jews etc were still migrating to Israel. Brings me to the question, what claim have these Soviet, European and American Jews to those lands.

This does not make sense! Since Isreal has a conventional army and is a has signed the UN charter does not shackle it from defending her territory and citizens who have been under constant attack from the demons of islam!
You claim Hamas and Hezbollah are guerilla armies and yet they have modern weapons of warfare that would be enough to destroy at least 3 African states!

It should not shackle it from defending her territory, but when it uses the same tactics as the terrorist (state terrorism) by state sponsored execution, wanton destruction of properties etc then the UN have to remind Israel of its charter.

Ismail Haniyah is the Prime Minister of Palestine and yet you erroneously claim palestine is not a state! Is England a state? Haniyah is the Hamas leader and yet you still claim Hamas is NOT a state army?
Mahmoud Abbas is the President of the Palestinian National Authority, this is as good as being the president of Nigeria! He is the leader of Fatah, another known terrorist organisation whose goal is the annihilation of the Jewish race!

England is a country. It is a country in a union >United Kingdom
There is no state of Palestine hence America is trying “The Roadmap to peace” with a two state solution. Abiola declared himself president of Nigeria, but he was not really the president. To get to Palestine you have to go through Israeli border guards.

i'm sure unbiased records prove the Sunnis and Shias did most of the killings themselves!

They were not killing themselves before the Americans arrived

What about Hezbollah? Are they also fighting for independence from Isreal?

No they are not, but they have many of their party members in jail in Israel

What of al-queada?

Yeah what of al-queada? Where did it come into this equation

@TayoD

It's funny how you summarily dismiss the evidence provided by archeology and you choose to go by way of selective amnesia in arriving at your conclusions.

I provided proof why I thought the archeological evidence was flawed.

I am sure the world of archeology will be alarmed by the conspiracy theory you have stated with regard to the motive of those who make these finds.

What conspiracy theory, did you actually read my piece?
I quoted Steven Ortiz (director of the Center for Archaeological Research at New Orleans) an eminent American Archaeologist.
He said the archaeologist was a Jordanian (he is British and his name is Shimon Gibson.) I disagreed and even gave him a link. Please read my response.

You know, one major reason behind this conflict is just the faith of these Arabs. These folks cannot be separated from their faith and it is their faith that is making them do what they do

Surprised you said that because I notice a lot of Christian undertones in your response, you quoted extensively from the bible.

The Jews owned no LANDS,their forefather Abraham came from the land of Orr which is in the present day Iraq or Iran am not sure,Isaac,Jacob were both normads and they were apparently slaves in Egypt.When they left Egypt led by Moses,they wondered for 40 years in the desert.

Joshua led them on a quest of killing and conquest of lands owned,built by AI,Jericho,Hebron,Jerusalem were all conquered by the Jews,the Jews were never owners of the land,they are conquerer occupiers.

mrmayor:

The Jews owned no LANDS,their forefather Abraham came from the land of Orr which is in the present day Iraq or Iran am not sure,Isaac,Jacob were both normads and they were apparently slaves in Egypt.When they left Egypt led by Moses,they wondered for 40 years in the desert.

Joshua led them on a quest of killing and conquest of lands owned,built by AI,Jericho,Hebron,Jerusalem were all conquered by the Jews,the Jews were never owners of the land,they are conquerer occupiers.

When you find the canaanites, jebusites and girgashites please remind them to petition the UN for their land!

@davidylan

However it is clear that the ruling was based on pre-independence agreements between German and English colonial powers and NOT pacts signed between Nigeria and Cameroun in 1970 as you and Tornadoz erroneously and arrogantly claim!

I think you need to read post before hitting your keyboard. The above statement attributed to me is a mystery to me. Can you remind me of my Cameroonian statement? I was leaving the Cameroonian question for another day.
See me see trouble. Lol!

Tornadoz:

@davidylan
Even with all these supposedly archaeological proof the UN still passed resolutions after resolutions affirming the land belongs to the Palestinians. The entire UN is wrong because ”it was rigged” is it.

The same UN that used anglo-german agreements to decide ownership of a parcel of land between Nigeria and Cameroun?

Tornadoz:

A little research will tell you how the Jewish state was created after the second world war. Considering what they went through in Europe, a state was created.

If you also do a little research rather than adopt islamic reasoning you should know that the Jewish state has been in existence for over 2000 yrs! That same research should tell you that the Jews were dispersed from their original land by Titus army in AD 70 allowing Alexander the great, the ottoman empire and the crusaders to conquer the land until it was returned to the Jews in 1948!

Tornadoz:

It should not shackle it from defending her territory, but when it uses the same tactics as the terrorist (state terrorism) by state sponsored execution, wanton destruction of properties etc then the UN have to remind Israel of its charter.

And who should remind the state sponsored terrorists about the consequences of wanton destruction of isreali lives and property? So because terrorists dont sign a charter we should ignore them when they send rockets with ball bearings to kindergarten schools in Isreal? Again a symptom of islamic reverse thinking.

Tornadoz:

England is a country. It is a country in a union >United Kingdom

What of Ivory coast that has a prime minister? Is it also a coountry in a union? Common sense!

Tornadoz:

They were not killing themselves before the Americans arrived

The Americans gassed the kurds, engaged Iran in an 8 yr war of attrition and invaded Kuwait too?

Tornadoz:

No they are not, but they have many of their party members in jail in Israel

And those party members (terrorists) in jail were simply locked up for being hezbollah members?

appologies @ tornadoz, that was Afam not you.

@davidylan

The same UN that used anglo-german agreements to decide ownership of a parcel of land between Nigeria and Cameroun?

You may not agree with their decision but thats what the UN was created for, to help resolve conflicts between nations.

If you also do a little research rather than adopt islamic reasoning

Its called free thinking as opposed to biblical reasoning

And who should remind the state sponsored terrorists about the consequences of wanton destruction of isreali lives and property?

There's no Hamas state, but there is a state of Israel like I said before.

So because terrorists don't sign a charter we should ignore them when they send rockets with ball bearings to kindergarten schools in Isreal? Again a symptom of islamic reverse thinking.

I never said it should be ignored, I however said you can hold Israel tothe charter it signed.

What of Ivory coast that has a prime minister? Is it also a coountry in a union? Common sense!

This beggars belief. If you had followed middle eastern politics like you claim you do, you would have found out America is sponsoring a two state solution to the conflict. How do I explain this?

The Americans gassed the kurds, engaged Iran in an 8 yr war of attrition and invaded Kuwait too?

This response is an answer to which question? My friend you've lost me.

And those party members (terrorists) in jail were simply locked up for being hezbollah members?

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Tornadoz:

@davidylan You may not agree with their decision but thats what the UN was created for, to help resolve conflicts between nations.

Amazing how Isreal is forced to abide by bogus UN resolutions that are routinely disobeyed by your terror organizations.

Tornadoz:

Its called free thinking as opposed to biblical reasoning

Free thinking and islamic reasoning do not belong together! We all know the truth, in islam freedom of expression is an alien and forbidden subject!

Tornadoz:

There's no Hamas state, but there is a state of Israel like I said before.I never said it should be ignored, I however said you can hold Israel tothe charter it signed.

This is merely reverse thinking. Since Hamas is no state it is free to bomb whoever it pleases? Since Isreal is a state it is not allowed to protect its sovereignity? Isreal should be held to the charter it signed while Hezbollah and Hamas should be given free reign to send rockets and suicide bombers at school children since the almighty UN with its bogus resolutions cannot hold them to a charter?

Tornadoz:

This beggars belief. If you had followed middle eastern politics like you claim you do, you would have found out America is sponsoring a two state solution to the conflict.

It is not what America is sponsoriing that matters, it is the REAL GOAL of the Palestinians that counts at the end of the day. America is free to sponsor an 80 state solution to the conflict, as long as Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, Al-queada all have the COMPLETE annihilation of Isreal as their number one goal we would be merely beating the air with countless UN resolutions and roadmaps to peace!
What Hamas wants is NOT a state or peace but complete destruction of Isreal! People like you who propagate the politically correct "Hamas only wants a state" are only decieving urselves.

Tornadoz:

This response is an answer to which question? My friend you've lost me.

The response was in connection with your claim that Iraqis were not killing themselves before the Americans arrived. This is the usual refrain among islamic appologetics who prefer to glorify lies at the expense of truth. Was it the Americans who gassed the kurds, fought Iran for 8 yrs and invaded Kuwait?

Tornadoz:

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

This is another example of Islam's al-taqqiya! To label those who kill over 250 innocent Kenyans in Nairobi as freedom fighters is appalling. What were those terrorists fighting in Nairobi? Did the Kenyans steal their land too?

TayoD, you know the point you just made about Hamas's sworn vow to eradicate Isreal has been made so many times. That point has been made several times in other threads here on nairaland alone. I guarantee they will gloss over that point. I swear some people have selective eyesight.

@TayoD
8+ responses so far and counting and as guaranted, the point above as been glossed over. It's the same pattern in previous threads dealing with this subject.

And yet Mugabe has some how made his way into the argument. Pure comedy.

@davidylan

Amazing how Isreal is forced to abide by bogus UN resolutions that are routinely disobeyed by your terror organizations.

Israel forced to abide by UN resolutions, you are having a laugh. I can't remember the number, but Israel and America have broken more UN resolution than any other country.

Free thinking and islamic reasoning do not belong together! We all know the truth, in islam freedom of expression is an alien and forbidden subject!

I wouldn't know am a free thinking Christian that knows when their is injustice. I see a lot of injustice in the middle east. I don't hold brief for any mullah unlike some people do with regards to Christians.

This is merely reverse thinking. Since Hamas is no state it is free to bomb whoever it pleases? Since Isreal is a state it is not allowed to protect its sovereignity? Isreal should be held to the charter it signed while Hezbollah and Hamas should be given free reign to send rockets and suicide bombers at school children since the almighty UN with its bogus resolutions cannot hold them to a charter?

Could this be because many UN members also fought for independence one way or another. Mind you freedom is not given, freedom is taken.

It is not what America is sponsoriing that matters, it is the REAL GOAL of the Palestinians that counts at the end of the day. America is free to sponsor an 80 state solution to the conflict, as long as Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, Al-queada all have the COMPLETE annihilation of Isreal as their number one goal we would be merely beating the air with countless UN resolutions and roadmaps to peace!
What Hamas wants is NOT a state or peace but complete destruction of Isreal! People like you who propagate the politically correct "Hamas only wants a state" are only decieving urselves.

First thing first. Give them their own state, then we wait and see what happens.
Israel has always rejected talking to the Palestinian Authority bacause they accused Arafat of being a terrorist. They wanted the one they can do business with. Mahmoud Abbas has being leading the PA for nearly 2yrs. Has Israel (the peace loving country) struck a deal with him.

The response was in connection with your claim that Iraqis were not killing themselves before the Americans arrived. This is the usual refrain among islamic appologetics who prefer to glorify lies at the expense of truth. Was it the Americans who gassed the kurds, fought Iran for 8 years and invaded Kuwait?

Before the Americans arrived there was no civil war, there is now.

This is another example of Islam's al-taqqiya! To label those who kill over 250 innocent Kenyans in Nairobi as freedom fighters is appalling. What were those terrorists fighting in Nairobi? Did the Kenyans steal their land too?

They were not freedom fighters, however if they had done it on their soil (blow up America bases) I would have applauded them.

@ Tornadoz,
There is no point dribbling around in a circle!

Tornadoz:

I see a lot of injustice in the middle east.

I'm sure if you looked very well most of the "injustice" you claim to see is perpetrated by arabs themselves. Syria occupied Lebanon for over 20 years, i'm sure you and your mullahs with blinkered glasses do not consider that as "injustice". Hezbollah, a proxy for Iran and Syria, continue to use Lebanon as a base for their terror activities; yet again this can never be regarded as injustice as long as the US and Isreal are not involved. Iraq invaded Kuwait and had to be forced back by the US while ur injustice-seeking mullahs kept quiet, for 8 long yrs more than a million souls perished as Iraq and Iran fought a war of attrition, yet your mullahs did not see this as injustice. What a bunch of hypocrites!

Tornadoz:

First thing first. Give them their own state, then we wait and see what happens.
Israel has always rejected talking to the Palestinian Authority bacause they accused Arafat of being a terrorist. They wanted the one they can do business with. Mahmoud Abbas has being leading the PA for nearly 2yrs. Has Israel (the peace loving country) struck a deal with him.

By the time we are "waiting to see what happens", the entire Jewish race would have been wiped out by murderous blood thirsty hordes of Allah! did you take note of the FIRST aim of Hamas to destroy Isreal and not about having a state? I wonder why everyone just wants to gloss over that part.

Tornadoz:

Before the Americans arrived there was no civil war, there is now.They were not freedom fighters, however if they had done it on their soil (blow up America bases) I would have applauded them.

That is what islamic appologists and proponents of political correctness want us to believe. When Saddam was gassing the kurds i'm sure the Americans were involved.

@davidylan

I'm sure if you looked very well most of the "injustice" you claim to see is perpetrated by arabs themselves.

There's also injustice in Africa, but are you advocating the return of colonialism.

Syria occupied Lebanon for over 20 years, i'm sure you and your mullahs with blinkered glasses do not consider that as "injustice".

Syria has a lot of support in Lebanon that's why they were able to stay there for such a long time, Israel couldn't remain for long.

Hezbollah, a proxy for Iran and Syria, continue to use Lebanon as a base for their terror activities; yet again this can never be regarded as injustice as long as the US and Isreal are not involved.

Why do you think it will not be injustice, if US travels thousands of miles to cause chaos in the region. Why do you think US intervenes in this region but won't do same in Darfur? US intervenes to protect its oil flow and to maintain the status quo regarding its satelite state of Israel.

Iraq invaded Kuwait and had to be forced back by the US while your injustice-seeking mullahs kept quiet,

Why did the US force them out, was it not to protect the oil wells. Was it out of love.

Sorry double post

@Tornadoz,

Even with all these supposedly archaeological proof the UN still passed resolutions after resolutions affirming the land belongs to the Palestinians. The entire UN is wrong because ”it was rigged” is it.

That is to tell you that the almighty UN is anything but a just organization. It is an agglomeration of politicians who are there to only play politics. The fact that those who should be enforcing the oil-for-food programmes were sabotaging it through kick-backs also confirms that the UN is manned by a bunch of self-serving people.

Well, the entire UN wasn't wrong when they declared the Jewish State, but their fear of terror backlash as well as OIL is making them suuccumb to the blackmail of these Jihadists.

I provided proof why I thought the archeological evidence was flawed.

Your refernce was only to John the Baptist. There are several archeological findings in that land that points solely to Jews. Davidylan mentioned the wailing wall. That predates anything non-jewish that is on that land.

What conspiracy theory, did you actually read my piece?
I quoted Steven Ortiz (director of the Center for Archaeological Research at New Orleans) an eminent American Archaeologist.
He said the archaeologist was a Jordanian (he is British and his name is Shimon Gibson.) I disagreed and even gave him a link. Please read my response.

Again this is a symptom of selective amnesia. Why limit your archeological evidence to this single "find"? How about the numerous others? What about the Herodium? Or do you expect us to start namning all these finds?

Surprised you said that because I notice a lot of Christian undertones in your response, you quoted extensively from the bible.

Extensively? The only time I've quoted from the Bible is in response to Afam who keeps wearing "I am a practicing christian" on his shoulder. Why are you so concerned about my quoting the Bible and yet you ignore the fact that the Hama Charter to kill ALL Jews is attributed to the statement by the founder of Islam - Mohammed. Again, a case of selective amnesia.

You have turned Mariory into a Prophet as you all keep ignoring this basic issue.

Tornadoz:

@davidylan. There's also injustice in Africa, but are you advocating the return of colonialism.

What has Africa and colonialism got to do with this? Have you run out of more excuses? You claim to "see a lot of injustice in the middle east", the import of that statement is not lost on those who are used to islamists and other proponents of political correctness using such a phrase to indirectly imply that the US and Isreal are the SOLE harbingers of "injustice" in the middle east. Experience has shown that in 90% of all cases, the real proponents of the injustice are the arabs themselves. the US and Isreal are merely convenient excuses!

Yes there is injustice in Africa, we don't go around blaming England, USA and Isreal for our self inflicted woes! Colonialism has NOTHING to do with the Isreali crisis, at least not even the most biased palestinian can accuse the Jewish state of colonising them!

Tornadoz:

Syria has a lot of support in Lebanon that's why they were able to stay there for such a long time, Israel couldn't remain for long.

Again you display so much ignorance, bias and hypocrisy. Syria's occupation of Lebanon between 1976-2005 had NOTHING to do with "support", it was a military occupation, the same as the Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians are quick to accuse the Jewish state of. It was a massive revolt (the cedar revolution) that finally forced out the Syrian army of occupation from Lebanon after the assassination of Rafik Hariri.

Tornadoz:

Why do you think it will not be injustice, if US travels thousands of miles to cause chaos in the region. Why do you think US intervenes in this region but won't do same in Darfur? US intervenes to protect its oil flow and to maintain the status quo regarding its satelite state of Israel. Why did the US force them out, was it not to protect the oil wells. Was it out of love.

Why is Iran interested in shouldering the Palestinian question? Is it out of love?

@davidylan

What has Africa and colonialism got to do with this? Have you run out of more excuses?

You said "most of the injustice you claim to see is perpetrated by arabs themselves" implying that since the injustice was done by Arabs against Arabs this calls for foreign intervention by America, hence my reference to Africa.

Experience has shown that in 90% of all cases, the real proponents of the injustice are the arabs themselves. the US and Isreal are merely convenient excuses!

If you had cared to reference this 90% of injustice, I would have been able to comment on it, why don't they blame Russia, China etc.

Yes there is injustice in Africa, we don't go around blaming England, USA and Isreal for our self inflicted woes!

In many cases we do blame England and the US but not Israel. It doesn't take a genius to know why we would blame America and England and not Israel, and why the Palestinians would blame the US, England and Israel.

Syria's occupation of Lebanon between 1976-2005 had NOTHING to do with "support", it was a military occupation,

Israel's was also a military occupation but were made very unwelcome.

Why is Iran interested in shouldering the Palestinian question? Is it out of love?

Certainly not out of hate, certainly not for their Oil reserves.

@TayoD

That is to tell you that the almighty UN is anything but a just organization. It is an agglomeration of politicians who are there to only play politics. The fact that those who should be enforcing the oil-for-food programmes were
sabotaging it through kick-backs also confirms that the UN is manned by a bunch of self-serving people. Well, the entire UN wasn't wrong when they declared the Jewish State, but their fear of terror backlash as well as OIL is making them suuccumb to the blackmail of these Jihadists.

So we should not trust the UN when it comes to Israel right. What of the International court of justice that also ruled that the land belongs to the Palestinians? Are they also kick-back taking self serving Oil loving terror cowards bunch of people. You and Davidylan quoted an archaeologist and I stated that the man though British was also a Jew. According to you we should ignore the UN, the International court of justice but believe Jewish archaeologist. This is laughable.

Your refernce was only to John the Baptist. There are several archeological findings in that
land that points solely to Jews. Davidylan mentioned the wailing wall. That predates
anything non-jewish that is on that land.

Why did they not take this archeological evidence to
the international court of Justice. Wouldn't this proove once and for all that the land belongs to them? They did not take it there, because the eminent Judges there would not be hoodwinked.

Extensively? The only time I've quoted from the Bible is in response to Afam who keeps wearing "I am a practicing christian" on his shoulder. Again, a case of selective amnesia.You have turned Mariory into a Prophet as you all keep ignoring this basic issue.

It was actually not in response to Afam. You have the first post on page 2 and it was meant for @Tornadoz. You quoted Jeremiah 16:14, no where in that post did you imply it was meant for Afam. Sadly any post addressed to @Tornadoz, I assume the person meant me. Mind you am not a mind reader.

Why are you so concerned about my quoting the Bible and yet you ignore the fact that the Hama Charter to kill ALL Jews is attributed to the statement by the founder of Islam - Muhammad.

Are you saying the Koran advocated the killing of
Jews? Haba

Brothers in the house, this forum is surposed to be a place of learning or a kind of debate and in either case, people should learn to make refferences at least to butress their points.
afam, you claimed to be a practicing christian and yet we have not heard you make refference to a verse in the bible and someone has reffered you to chapter in jeremaih or is that still in doub.
you are protecting an arab interest here, yet you have not been able to reffer us to a verse in the quran and someone has done that.
remember, saudi arab is the capital of the muslims and they still believe that war/violence has never been able to solve the problems of the palestines.
please tell us here, who is Abbas and whose interest is he protecting?
who is hamas and whose interests are they protecting? who is hezeboulah and whose interests are they protecting?
trace all the conflicts and their origins, we always see isreal on the reacting side.
if anyone deserves independence here, it should be isreal.
are you saying the kidnaping of isreali citizens by hamas and hezeboulah was a justified move.
remember, UN till date is tagging hamas and hezeboulah as terrorist organisation and they are not legal governments till of late when hamas came to power.
be informed that everyother arab country here knows the interest of iran in sponsoring these extremists.
UN resolution allows countries to defend their citizens from foriegn aggressors.
much talking and never coming to a conclusion, please my dear, could you please in simple language tell us where isreal will go when the withdraw totally as hamas is demanding. will they come to Nigeria and then tell us where did they come from and then quote your source.

afam, pls find out from a zimbabwian the consequences of the land reforms.
they are dying and inflation is estimated at over 2000%.
the lands are wasting while nigerian gov have adviced the banks to give loans to those white farmers who are mostly now in nigeria.
just search through your internet and find out what the zimbabwe central bank governor has to say about the land reforms.
i wish i know u in person.

@Tornadoz,

So we should not trust the UN when it comes to Israel right. What of the International court of justice that also ruled that the land belongs to the Palestinians? Are they also kick-back taking self serving Oil loving terror cowards bunch of people. You and Davidylan quoted an archaeologist and I stated that the man though British was also a Jew. According to you we should ignore the UN, the International court of justice but believe Jewish archaeologist. This is laughable.

A concrete evidence is a better testimonial to the veracity of a case than the eventual judgement by individuals who may or may not be influenced by political pressure, economic pressure or pressure due to terror.  Davidylan just mentioned the ruling by the International Court of Justice granting Bakassi to Cameroun based on an Anglo- German agreement - how dreadful. One thing you have to understand about the justice system is that it is not always just (never mind the name). The rulings are based on laws which may or may not be just. For instance, a woman can go to court here in the U.S. or Europe and win the case to abort her baby because that provision is allowed by the law. But does that make her right? No. A Judge's ruling has to be consistent with the law and not justice!!!

Why did they not take this archeological evidence to the international court of Justice. Wouldn't this proove once and for all that the land belongs to them?  They did not take it there, because the eminent Judges there would not be hoodwinked.

I have explained why this may not have worked in my response above. Do you also realise that the bakassi people are more closely related to Nigeria and speak a Nigerian laguage and declared they would rather be with Nigeria.  Despite all these overwhelming factors, the Court still awarded Bakassi to Cameroun - that should tell you how limited the court can be.  But in any case, can you provide us with a link to this cout\rt ruling you are talking about?

It was actually not in response to Afam. You have the first post on page 2 and it was meant for @Tornadoz.  You quoted Jeremiah 16:14, no where in that post did you imply it was meant for Afam. Sadly any post addressed to @Tornadoz, I assume the person meant me. Mind you am not a mind reader.

Again, that I quoted the Bible once does not make that extensive. Try not to exagerate next time. Please go back and read that post again.  I addressed it to "him who says he is a practicing Christian", that is a clear reference to Afam, and thank God he is intelligent enoguh to realise it and he responded to my statement shortly afterward. So once again, it was not addressed to you but to Afam, and I believe it is clear enough.

Are you saying the Koran advocated the killing of Jews? Haba

Can you then explain the following Hadith spoken by Mohammed and which is the Article 7 for Hamas: "The Hour [of Resurrection] will not come until the Muslims make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"  How clear can this be? Also visit: [url]http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html[/url]