₦airaland Forum

gospelman:
Gbade,whether you like it or not,what I said was not about you but me.You say you are a protestant and I say I am not.

Whoever told you you were ,is a different issue now.But the point remains that no Christian is a protestant nor a pentecostal.Those are names carved out by men and these names have only helped in dividing the body of Christ .But the Lord is building His church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Why can't we just stick with what God says about us and flow with what He has given us?Anyone who is born again and filled with the Holy Ghost should not be faced with the unscriptural walls or protestantism and pentecostalism.Let the new kid just flow with the Lord,to whom he belongs.

Local Asemblies are scriptural (whatever name we call them).But protestantism and pentecostalism are not scriptural.As a matter of fact,on the day of pentecost,in the Acts of the Apostles, it was the 'non-pentecostals' ,a hundred and twenty of them, that received the Holy Ghost.The pentecostals(those who were celeberating the Jewish feast of pentecost) did not receive the Holy Ghost.As a matter of fact they didn't even now He came.But they did see the effects but termed it drunkeness.

So just be a Jesus man!

Your post does not really make sense.

While I agree, it would be great IF there were no denominations and every christian was just that, the fact is the world is different. I can't tell if this was your tone. . or if you are really saying there isn't any real thing as a denomination.

blkamrcngl:
You ask the question, "Are Egyptians black or white?", probably referring to present day Egyptians (personally I consider them neither). Please do not forget that the Egyptians that you speak of today are not of the same ethnic composition as the Egyptians 2000 years ago. The exact same thing can be said for the Jews. This is the reason why I say Jesus's "earthly shell" was likely closer to "black" than "white".

Well, what has changed the racial makeup of the egyptians since the time of jesus? Almost nothing. By that time, Egyptians, Jews, and just about everyone in nothern africa were intermingling with Europeans, first the Greeks, then Romans, then whoever else. It is very very highly improbable that Jesus could have been "black".

cheekee:
it's simple those who believe in paying tithe continue doing it and hold on to your faith,those who don't and think that they'd rather do otherwise well and good hold on to your faith also but let us all look frankly into this matter not as how we want it to be but as it really is

Well said!

You mean, the husband locks her in the house so nobody can get in or out without his key?

Unless they have children she has to take care of, the housewife is the one with more opportunity to cheat.

The man must work, if he slacks off too much (due to other activities) he'd get fired and then have to explain what happened.

The wife can clean up, once the guy is off to work, she can have her man-toys come over or goto their place, enjoy herself, and return home to have dinner ready.

The Koran doesn't say that Christianity is the one true religion.

So, both of your books are wrong.

Are egyptian's black or white?

Which are they closer to being?

How can you make the claim that he was closer to being black?

I think the ultimate right they want is the right to get ONLY the rights they want

you mean developing softare for desktop systems.

SW development still must go on for embedded systems as well.

And what right is it that men have that women don't?

Hmm. . men and women are equal. . . until its time to lift a 100lb load.

i'm an electrical engineering major in the usa focusing on robotics.

That is not the only use of assembly.

All OSes must incorporate some assembly. No matter how high level you write code, in order to interact with hardware, you will need to write routines specific for a processor or some interface module. If you want these routines to run as fast as possible, you will use assembly.

If a high level language compiler doesn't exist for a microcontroller, then you would have NO choice but to use assembly. If you are writing code for an embedded system and you need to streamline costs, boost speed and performance, you will use assembly.

I don't know about people here, but assembly is still alive and well in my field of work.

You must be incredibly dense. Not only do you repost the same crap, you still have the same problems.

chrisd:
Praying to Mary and the Saints

I will talk about the Catholic practice of asking Mary, saints and angels to pray for us. The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)

So, the Psalm 103 you quoted says this:
1) Bless the Lord - this is directed at angels
2) Bless all his hosts which are his ministers who do his will

This does not say that angels in heaven pray for us. It says that David wants angels to pray for us. It does not mean that they actually do so.

Your quote from Psalm 148:
1) It says to praise the lord, his angels, and his hosts.

This says NOTHING about prayer!

chrisd:
In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:. Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

You are assuming where it says "saints" in Rev 5:8, it is talking about people on earth.

chrisd:
Angels do the same thing: "An angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Maybe you misread this. It says and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God This means that the paryers of the saints were already there, and the angel had nothing to do with it. So, NO, it does not say that angels offer up our prayers or prayers of anyone.

chrisd:
Jesus himself warned us not to mess with small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 18:10).

What does this have to do with praying to people?

chrisd:
Because he is the only God-man, Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1-4), including those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

Nobody disagrees with this.

chrisd:
I would be willing to bet they do not even examine the prayers we use to 'petition' Mary. Have you ever heard of the word 'intercession'? It is when we ask someone to pray for us. Lets look at a few Bible verses,

Rom 15:30, ", help me by your prayers to GOD for me."
Col 1:9, "This is why we too have been praying for you unceasingly."
1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more, "
2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you."
2Thes 3:1, "In conclusion brethren, pray for us, "
Jam 5:16, ", and pray for one another that you may be saved."
Rev 8:3-4 ", that he may offer it with the prayers of all the saints, "

The Bible is asking you to pray for one another. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever told someone you will pray for them? Why then, when the name of Mary is introduced, is it not to be asked of her? Was she not a created being like all the rest of us? Why can we ask everyone else to pray for us, but we can't ask it of Mary? Does it not stand to reason that her Son would listen to her and grant her requests?

While it may seem foolish to talk to a dead person and ask them to pray for you, nobody is saying there is anything wrong with that. So, yes, you can ASK mary to PRAY for you. You cannot PRAY TO mary. BIIIG difference.

And no, it does not stand to reason that God will grant her requests. That is utter foolishness.

chrisd:
He turned water into wine at Cana just by Mary making a remark, "They have no wine", Jn 2:3. He was subjected to her in Lk 2:51, and no doubt for many years until His ministry started at age 30. He listens to her now, just as He did then. She must have a lot more influence with Him than any of us do, since she is His mother.

That you could draw that conclusion is astounding. I suppose that if I was someplace, and you saw some woman say, they have no wine, and I goto the store and bring wine, you would conclude that I have been subject to her and she has influence over me.

I don't see how a human being can have influence over God. That's like saying your dog has influence over you. Utter foolishness.

chrisd:
Let us see what Catholics pray.

Have you ever listened to the words of the most used Marian prayer of all, the Hail Mary?

*** "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." ***
This is nothing more than the salutation of Gabriel in Luke 1:28.

*** "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)." ***
That is Elizabeth's greeting to Mary in Lk 1:42.

***"Holy Mary, mother of GOD." ***
She is a saint which makes her holy, and she is the Mother of GOD, because Elizabeth calls her the 'Mother of Our Lord' in Lk 1:43. Also if you take Jn 1:1 ", and the Word was GOD', and add it to Jn 1:14, ", and the Word was made flesh", GOD was made flesh, and who was His mother? Mary!

*** "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen." ***
This is nothing more than petitioning Mary to PRAY FOR US, just like in the Bible verses I presented. Do we 'pray to' Mary, or are we only petitioning her to pray for us?

Sorry, you can fool yourself all you want. If you are praying to mary, you are an idolater. Just like if I was petitioning the dollar bill to save me.

chrisd:
One final note:
Many non-Catholics have the false belief that praying to "dead" people is useless. This is a mis-interpretation of what Holy Scripture teaches us, for the Blessed Virgin Mary and others who have gone on before us are not dead but live forever.

The Scriptures tell us that we pray to God through Jesus in the Holy Spirit -- this is Saint Paul's great insight into the nature of specifically Christian prayer.

Theologically, Catholics believe that if our prayer is directed to God the Father, we are simultaneously praying to the Son and to the Holy Spirit; if our prayer is directed primarily to Jesus, we are simultaneously praying to the Father and to the Spirit; and if our prayer is directed primarily to the Holy Spirit we are also praying to the Father and the Son.

Since the Holy Trinity is a divine community of Persons, prayer directed to One of the divine Persons -- Father, Son, Spirit -- reaches the other divine Persons; the Father shares everything with the Son and the Spirit; the Son shares everything with the Father and the Spirit; the Holy Spirit shares everything with the Father and the Son.

So, yes, Catholics pray to Jesus as the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity.

The more difficult part of your question -- especially from a Protestant point of view -- is why Catholics also pray to Mary.

We have many ways, as Catholics, of talking about this aspect of our prayer.

To be a Christian means, among other things, accepting Jesus into your life. Mary literally accepted Jesus into her life for when she said "Yes!" to the archangel's invitation and the Holy Spirit overshadowed her, Jesus made His home in her womb. So, for Catholics Mary is the First Christian, the first human being to accept Jesus Christ into her life.

As the First Christian, she is, so the speak, the Prototype of what being a Christian means. In that role, we Catholics feel that Mary has something like a "first among equals" role as exemplar for us.

So, we Catholics feel very comfortable going to her in prayer for guidance and help since she walked this road of living the Christian life before anybody else. When we pray to her, we are, in a sense, asking for her wisdom and insight about how to live our Christian lives more perfectly; since she's already done it, we look to her for example, direction and guidance.

Another way that we Catholics think of our practice of praying to Mary is the following. We are perfectly comfortable as Christians asking other Christians for prayer support when we are confronted by special needs, crises, or stressful circumstances. Calling up a Christian friend and saying, "Please pray for me, I'm going through a really tough time" makes complete sense to us.

Christians also believe that death is not the end of life. Death is a 'door' through which we pass, as we move from one room in our Father's Mansion, the room of this life, to another room in the Lord's House, which is the room of eternal life. The dead in Christ are surely alive!

Mary, as the First Christian, is, then, alive in Christ -- sharing the glory of heaven with her Son and all those to whom God has given eternal life.

So, when we Catholics pray to Mary, we are simply saying that since she is alive in Christ in the glory of heaven, we can go to her, asking for her prayerful support -- in much the same way that we would ask a Christian in our Church community to support us with his or her prayers.

The fact that Mary is alive in life-beyond-death in no way minimizes her ability to pray. In fact, we Catholics would say that since Mary is with her Son, her prayers have a special kind of efficacy and power.

Another way that Catholics talk about praying to Mary builds on the idea of a special bond between a parent and a child, and particularly on the bond between a Mother and her Son. In many human relationships, a mother has a special role in the life of her children. Mary, being such a magnificent mother, and Jesus, being the Perfect Son, surely had a marvelous and ultimately close relationship. When we Catholics pray to Mary, we are simply assuming that the closeness between this Mother and her divine Son continues in life-beyond-death, and we are asking this special and wonderful Mother to speak to her beloved and divine Son on our behalf.

A last word about the way Catholics see our prayer to Mary: When we pray to Mary, we Catholics are, essentially, saying, "Blessed Mary, you are living in the very Presence of God, would you please take my request, my prayer, and put it before God Who chose you to be the Mother of His Son?" We are acknowledging that, as the Bible says, all generations call her "blessed" precisely because God offered her a unique role as the Mother of Jesus and because she accepted God's invitation. That intimacy which Mary had with God continues in the glory of heaven. When we Catholics pray to her, we are simply saying, "Please ask God to hear our prayers now, and at the hour of our death!"

Does a Catholic HAVE to pray to Mary? No, we don't HAVE to pray to Mary. But, praying to Mary is one of the greatest gifts the Catholic Church has to offer us -- so why in the world wouldn't we accept this magnificent gift?!? While we don't have to pray to Mary, most Catholics WANT to pray to her because she is special to God, special to God's Son, and she, therefore, very special to us! We never 'worship' Mary -- "worship" is what we give to God alone. But we do have a very deep love and a very high regard for this blessed woman!

Protestants could then say, in effect, "even though our beliefs conflict at every turn, and therefore cannot really be true, just look at the even GREATER untruths that exist in Catholicism! Therefore we are in a better place." This argument is about as close as any Protestant can come to justifying the plague of denominations which the original Protestant rebellion spawned, in direct opposition to the will of Christ, Who stated His divine intent that all Christians would be ONE, even as He and His Father are ONE. Protestants therefore do not wage their attacks on traditional Christian truth out of spite or hatred, or even jealousy, but rather out of a desperate quest for a legitimacy which is objectively lacking in their religious tradition. The bizarre accusations they bring against God's Church - worshipping statues, making human beings equal to God, adopting pagan beliefs, etc. might possibly legitimize such a rebellion, if any of it were true.

Thanks for your question; hope this helps some.

Unfortunately, this makes many assumptions, such as that mary is in heaven and is able to talk to God. Though I suppose, the Catholic chuch, once it says that Mary is in heaven and so is peter and benedict, then you'all feel you have a license to pray to them.

Further, it is NOT supported by the bible, which makes it even more ridiculous.

donnie:
Is that what you thinK? Is is really anyone who says he does miracles or that publicises miracles that has a crowd following him? Is this the result of your research or you ar just spaking bitterness against what you do not understand? If that were so, then anyone who said he does niracles would have a cowd araound him. But i tell you, there are many fake prophets and diviners who shout on the top of their voices on our streets but have only a few people at time to decieve, and just 4 a while before they find out they are being decieved.

No, not all con men are successful.

donnie:
Really, can you prove that to me here?

I could, but there is no point in doing so.

donnie:
Is it not possible to get fake credetials?

You think I can create a fake university and introduce you to people who all pretend to have known me as a student?

donnie:
And who cannot show you doctors reports and certificates. They have been shown severally on TV. Doctors have been interviewed over certain cases. I have my healing school magazines here with me, with people who have certificates to prove that they were ill with docors signatures and addresses of the clinics.

In the interviews, there are no records discussed or the doctor hadn't started treating the person till after the "healing" or some other hole in the story.

donnie:
I do not have that time brother, just like the NBC. But however, some newspapers have come around to report on the healing school and they were taken to the homes of some of these recipients.

What paper? Where is the news? You claim to have some, is it that hard to disclose the name of the paper and the date and author of the article? I can check if you're lying or not from there.

donnie:
Thanx to Naijarita news. I see that is where you get your inspiration.

I'm not sure where this comes from. Naijarita news is a fake news website isn't it?

donnie:
Did those healed drop from the moon? Are they not Nigerians? , Thousands of them are shown on TV all over this country.

And when you actually find them, they deny it.

donnie:
Those recipients will only feel pity for you as they are presently rejoicing in the love of God and sharing that love and their testimony with as many as they come across , too happy to be bothered if one person somewhere is angry that they are being blessed.

Why would they pity me? I'm not angry that they were blessed. In fact, if they are so blessed, how come they're not out proclaiming their "healing". Again, there is a singular lack of actual people who are publicly proclaiming the good news of their miracles. . .which tends to indicate that there aren't any people who have actually been healed.

donnie:
They still do so today, its just a pity that some today, like those high priests in Jesus day will rather chose to stand against the work of God causing others to think the Word is a lie, like they did, bribing the soldiers who came to report of Jesus' resurrection to lie that his body was stolen.

If this was true, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

donnie:
There are too many lost souls out there on their way to hell to bother ourselves with the fact that someone in Nairaland is refusing to believe the truth before his eyes.

What truth? I have yet to be given any single piece of verifiable evidence. If there are so many people who are being healed, why is it impossible for you to prove it?

donnie:
Thanx to Nigerita, if i may ask, wer you involved in any of those verification processes yourself? 'because you choose to believe that so easily.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. What is Nigerita? What verification process? What did I choose to believe so easily?

donnie:
You are not under compulsion to believe. Just like you are you are not under any compulsion to believe that Jesus rose from the death, victorious over death and hell.

Yep, exactly right. And with Christians participating in promoting shams like this, its not a wonder that the world is going to pieces.

are you sure?

This is not about someone telling or not telling me what to do.

I assume that there is enough common ground between catholicism and my denomination of christianity for us to agree on the definition of idolatry.

So, if we agree that praying to a human being is idolatry, I would like an explanation of how exactly a catholic can pray to Mary without becoming an idolater.

Also, there is the concept of purgatory, something that most catholics can barely explain. Is it a part of catholic doctrine? If so, why? Why would there be things about catholicism that 90% of all catholics can barely understand . . or even know about. [You don't have to answer this part - just the stuff about mary].

if you didn't know what i was supposed to not have said about what I didn't say, then maybe if you didn't say anything about it, we would not have the problem of trying to figure out what we didn't know that i was supposed to have said

then maybe you shouldn't have said something

or you can try this, it worked for my cousin's brother's friends aunt's sister friend from secondary who had a blood covenant with some guy:

Cut off the middle finger of each hand
Boil for two hours with 5 grains of salt
Season with garlic and serve warm.

you seem like you would know

So far, I have not seen evidence from google ITSELF that it is actually doing this.

So, I think its a farce.

so, they are copying a former practice of the catholic church.

Though, this must be a new thing. Most pentecostal denominations I know of in the US don't practice that.

Still, what about this praying to Mary thing. . . still seems like idolatry to me. I can't imagine praying to my parents or my professors. . I don't see why I'd pray to Mary either.

ok. . what should I have said?

winsett:
why do most of you reply with such pride in their inability to pronounce the english language correctly. This only gives the racists reason to believe we are inferior to them. Please be proud to know the english language and stop acting like NIGGERS. I am ashamed when i read 'that' and 'them' and other lazy, dumb responses

As for a having many wives, a man had better know what and who he wants for a wife, but he must remember, he will always be physicallly attracted to others.

hey critic, you mean "physically"

Your point?

You still haven't responded to my questions.

I suppose that the catholic texts also initially supported indulgences, but we protestants got rid of that too. Now you can't pay your way out of sin.

donnie:
Jesus told us that we shall have what soever we say. The bible also tells us that death and life are in the power of the tongue. It also lets us know in Romans 10:8,9 that salvation is in your mouth.

He is using his mouth to position his life for success. What are you doing with yours? Speak for yourself, and let him speak for himself.

Many christians loose out on the best of God's blessings bc they choose to tie their lives to those names.

You ask a fellow, "are you born-again or have you recieved the holy Ghost?' and he answers, 'I am not penticostal'.

What does 'penticostal' or 'orthodox' have to do with recieving the Holy Ghost? You should recieve the Holy Ghost and speak in other tongues whether you are catholic, protestant or penticostal. So don't hide behind any name to excuse yourself from doing God's Word.

That is what we want to get at, ok?

I belong to a chusrch myself. I have recieved the Holy spirit and i speak with tongues but i am neither penticostal, prostestant nor orthordox. I am a christain.

Perhaps you don't know what it means to be pentacostal. . . If you did, you will understand his response.

i don't know