₦airaland Forum

LT SHANGY: I think the casualty rate was downplayed by the SA govt.. A reporter counted more than 50 bags being loaded on a plane.. Just to save face

it is imposbil for sa to hide a death in the defense force. It could not even be done during the aparthied regiem. this type of infomastion could not be kept quite and no whistle blower would be punished for informing the public. and trust me they would. i would i would not want 40 of my commrands to be burriend in the night.

so sa lost 14 and killed over 500. one rebel commander himself admited he lost half of his 500 strong force alone.

LT SHANGY: 200 SANDF defeated by 3000 rebels? where wete all the rooikvaks and grippens?? I guess waiting be flown by mecenaries!!!

And only 14 South Africans died. Where over 500 rebels where killed

The sandf was not in car to fight the rebels. They where there to protected SA personael and property. If the local and regional forces had actualy put up a fight the city may of been saved. All of the SA solder where killed at the same locastion when rebel attacked them from behind. They had brought there thecnicals acrros a bridge that local solders where supposed to gaurd. But they ran away before the rebels even got close.

SA sent gripens to uganda soon after the battel in the event the local french pupets grew a paire and decsided the rebels must go.

not all of SA defense companies are big weapons makers, here is one that makes armour, mainly for the European and amricas

http://www.janes.com/events/exhibitions/africa-aerospace-defence-2012/news/sept-21/Ceramics-saves-lives.aspx



More than 25 years after MOH-9 began working in ceramics technology, it has become a leader in the development and manufacture of alumina ceramics for use in body, vehicle, aircraft, ship and building armour. Although very brittle, ceramic materials are very cost-effective in providing protection against modern ammunition, including armour-piercing bullets.

That is because on striking a ceramic surface, deformation of the bullet tip takes place, thus enlarging its cross-section.

Consequently, impact friction processes together with the longitudinal shockwave and the reflected wave combine to destroy the bullet and pulverise the ceramic during penetration. Any remaining bullet fragments have a considerably lower kinetic energy and can be entrapped by elastic/plastic deformation within the backing.

Although MOH-9 is based in South Africa, most of its production ends up in Europe or Latin America, where body, seat and other specialist manufacturers incorporate its panels in their products. An example of up-armouring a model tank may be seen on the company’s Stand 4E6 in Hall 4.

The company was involved in increasing the protection of the Oliphant MBT in South Africa. Another ‘domestic’ customer has been the South African Navy, which makes use of the company’s panels to protect vulnerable parts of its frigates.

all4naija: I saw 17th largest weapons trading countries of the world in one of the comments in this thread. That means it is also a weapons peddling nation.

How is that peddling. It just means people want what we have on offer

all4naija: When has peddling petty weapons represent highly developed weapons? You are bragging now, bro.

Since when have we peddeled.

Olphant of SA
[img]http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1LmYqLPEys4ZT-dEfJP6q6Z06DcwQzGiyvHc5eSy8PsNGrNnvyQvloqS-[/img]
[img]http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=ms-rim&tab=wi&q=olphant%20MK2%20tank&sa=N#[/img]

Centurion of UK
[img]http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=ms-rim&tab=wi&q=centurion%20MBT&sa=N[/img]

all4naija: The highlighted is the simple reason your military can be defeated by Angola that uses developed nation highly sophisticated weapons. Keep showing off the well polished weapons.

What you talking about. We the 17 largest arms trader. You don't get that buy sell junk. We make world class wepaons.

agaugust: the british built hawk jet in full and shipped the parts in pieces for you to assemble. if war happens and they stop spare parts, yout hawk jet will be grounded if needs spare parts.

what use is the weapons or missiles you put on European made weapons if the platform for launching was not sold to you ?

i didnt tell post the fact that your Rooivalk helicopter gunship...the engine is imported fully built if France, same France that you hate and insult. your helicopter CANNOT fly without the engine from France, or is it a Spirit ?

stop wasting my time....i k.illed south african pride with that post

And the M1 tank of america uses a germian gun, the styker chassie is built in canda and is a swise fusghine chasie, the gripen uses american engiens extra extra.

all4naija: You keep begging the question with gibberish. What has trade got to do with such reasons you are trying to present here. It is like saying why would European countries buy Cocoa seeds from Africa when Brazil has the same? It is like saying why will China buy Nigerian cassava flour when there is wheat flour?

It is likely you don't know what trade is all about. It is buying and selling. It is not about sophistication or best. They are buying your SA hardware because they are cheaper and can serve the purpose of child games.

Please you makeing your self sound like a fool. The not buying them due to cheapness. They buy them because they the best opstion for them.

agaugust: [size=16pt]the most important weapons in south africa are imported from Europe[/size]

list :

Grippen jets from Sweden
Hawk Jets from Britain
Valour Frigates from Germany
Type 209 Submarine from Germany
Olifant Battle Tanks from Britain

....and the list is very long, i have checked south african weapons importation from Europe in the international arms sales log, they are many all imported fully built.

south africa does NOT manufacture any of her most important weapons locally, and without these European made weapons, Angola will defeat south africa in war

.

Thoufg they all fited with SA sytems.
And since when was the olphant britsh. Do I need to post a pic of the centurion and olphant MK2

The vast majorty of the money spent on the valour was used on the SA sytems.

The hawk is armed with SA made wepaons. Other than the paveway3 and ISRT the gripen uses SA wepaons.

Even the type 209 uses SA sytems.


And since when are they the most importaned wepaons in the SANDF. Other than the valour and sub all thos wepaons you menstioned have littel to no role in our current defense cominments. The Mamba and caspir are the most used.

Fighter Pilot: Snyder, why is it seem that ARMSCOR is missing? Lol!!

Tgey no longer build any thing these days. They only handle purchesing and maintance.

all4naija: It means SA don't know much about how to shop for the best. Please, don't make that to look as though a threat to Nigerian military here. Somebody with a 9MM gun can easily take out any guy with this grenade launcher.

Once again don't speak. You think this get pulled out when the enemy breath down your neck, or when the rest of your secstion is sleeping. A 9mm pistol has a range of 25M 25M is with in it no fire zone.

Your cliam is like a dude knife can take out a machin gun post.

all4naija: I don't think I need a use for that when a rocket launcher can do more damaging with little stress.

It doesn't look South African to me.

Once again, don't talk about what you don't know. Your statand rocket launcher is basicaly a RPG-7 in nigeria. A averige rocktear may have 4 rockets. Most of them HEAT warheads that are ineffective vs infantry. The MGL has 6 40 grendas on tap and a 40mm grendade is far easyer to carry. Most would be of the HE type though other rounds are used. They badicaly 2 diffrent wepaons with diffrent jobs.
RPG for killing AFV
MGL for killing people.



Yes it is south african the USA are just useing them now.

souldust: news24 has no newspaper in Naija

News 24 is a online

more pics from the border patrol in kruger

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/components/com_joomgallery/img_pictures/operation_rhino_76/operation_rhino_20130515_1078158847.jpg

agaugust: .

did you study war history ? 30 year old SAM 2 missiles shot down a new generation american stealth jet fighter and F-16 jets in Bosnia.
Old soviet era Iraqi AAA guns shot down many the most modern air superiority jet fighters in the world, F-15 and F-16 jets among others.

you have just accused me of predicting outcome of war, but also just predicted outcome of combat engagement of a very successful SAM and a new generation stealth fighter when the two have not engaged yet. a fighter pilot should know that.

on the issue of my saying one country will defeat another, that is just our general language here on this forum. i have said on this forum several times that you dont know the winner of any war until the war ends, at my level of war history knowledge i know that. a lot of my analysis here is based on war records.

it is our domestic language on this forum to say if you are on top ranking above a country, you will defeat them in war, but we all know as adults, no winner until the war ends.

Since when was the F117 a new aircraft. And it was shot down due to incompetence in any case.


no F16 was lost in iraq to AA guns. 3 where lost to sams (SA6 SA3 radar guided and SA16 manpad) only 2 F15 where lost in iraq. More have been lost in accidents than from hostile fire. Of witch there was a lot in Iraq.

agaugust: army officers from india and pakistan are being regularly trained in nigerian military academies. does that mean nigeria will defeat india or pakistan in war.

nigerian new helicopter training simulators just arrived/delivered. augusta helicopters are italian but a factory was built in south africa and nigeria purhased from that factory. some training could result from that.

otherwise, if you are a real fighter pilot, you know you dont fly an aircraft you did not train to fly, or else you crash. nigerian combat aircraft are different from south african combat aircraft. i just remeinded you of how your air force chief of plans commended nigerian air force professsionalim when he came to nigeria to meet them, he had a different view when he was far away in south africa, nigeria updated his knowledge when he came, he requested joint training, NOT handing down skills to nigeria like school boys.

you may have more advanced training schools, but NOT better pilots or instructors. nigeria has used alpha jets in combat for over 20 years with regular training and recent upgrades. nigeria has flown C-130 hercules for over 20 years and we now maintain it locally. we are masters of the aircraft we have flown for 20 years, we dont need south africa for any special training. however, no military is perfect in this world, not even america.

officers and NCOs go and do course in other countries all the time.So no.

There are many skills that one can take from any aircraft to any aircraft.

all4naija: Although, I am not a soldier. Merely looking at that image you would agree with me the first soldier is not handling the weapon the right way. He is point the weapon downward instead of parallel to his own face level.These men will be easy preys for CAR child rebels. .

I can see you not a solder.

The down ward postion is a legit method of keeping it. And that is not a donward method. The rifel is not being aimed but instead the rifle man is look that way with the rifel close at the ready.

all4naija: If you read my previous comment very well you will understand to some extent we agree your news media can be notorious in reporting issues about your country but not when it comes to national pride. We have seen that happens with your people here in this forum on the ground of patriotism being part of the broad spectrum of your society, which the news media as well is part of. So, nothing is exaggerated here about your links by us.

What persone with nastional prid would slander his own country. The biggest source of negtive news in SA is SA media.

all4naija: Wow! I can see the fear on one of these men faces. It is like they are afraid to be soldiers even while on training. Huh!

What you talking about.

all4naija: News coming directly from SA in such condition as to national pride will be doctored without any argument. We have seen that being displayed here by most South Africans done on the ground of sentiment as to being patriotic. That I find to be very funny of a country that claims to be civilized and well organized. Indeed, it is surprising to be reasoning in such direction in a country with good claim of human outlook.

Nigerian using SA link is more of a better evidence because it would be hard for SA to report about Nigeria with shady intention as they would like to prove we are not doing thing on equal footings. SA is a foreign country to Nigeria and its reports will be very truthful on our matters unlike reporting about its own to prove its people are doing better with shady intention. That is a fact. The same can be said about Nigeria in return - though, I haven't seen any yet.

One of the souces we gave was the rebels them self. They admited they losted hundreds of men.

No one els has refueted the SANDF version of the battel. Not even the rebels.

The only diffrence is that they cliam we had 50 dead. Witch has been proven to be a lie.

So please 14 dead vs over 500 dead. See the diffrence there. The battel in CAR showed that south african solders when push comes to shufe will be able to do more than what is needed.

agaugust: strategic intelligence of south africa failed in CAR seleka rebels war. Tactical intelligence is secondary not primary. sorry, south african war intelligence is NOT impressive going by history.

training photo above too. @andrewza said nigerian soldiers standing on the heads on the floor does not make a soldier strong, so maybe same for south african soldiers carrying logs of wood like farmers making firewood for cooking.

Taitcal intlgiance is vital in warfare. Stragic intliance is not realy even the job of the defense force.

It teachs a number of skills and is real world value.
Such has
Team work
Stamnai
Upper body streghth
Extra extra.

Fighter Pilot: Andrew do you perhaps have any knowledge about Agaugust qualifications? To conduct research on military industry requires one to have vast knowledge, experience and qualifications to the level of doctoral degree. Did he at any instance mention the name of the military academy where did he study to obtain such qualifications and under what military? Hopefully he did not get that qualification in the US. The US academy is very much reputable in military research analysis and wouldn't make such a blunder by haphazardly concluding that one country will defeat another.

i dont think he is a aylysit of any kind.

grafikii: [size=20pt]You guys are so off topic these days, imagine someone posting infrastructure, Most of us are loosing interest [/size]

Technacly unfustructer is part of the milltary.

Fighter Pilot: Unfortunately, from the onset, you have failed to display qualities of your highly purported reputable military knowledge. It is however very clear to me that you are not what you claim to be, simply because good military expects to the level of colonel as you have asserted, do not go about making such faulty and flawed statements about judging one country's military power using such factors as those you have mentioned above. It is evident however that the imperialist powers have corrupted your logic and left you with hardly anything of value to reason objectively. Since, I have seen that your aptitude concerning military affairs is narrowly limited, I wouldn't proceed further with this discussion because you failed to portray the basics of analysing military power of any country.

Any country's military power is judged in accordance with the following factors;

1. Firepower which is the total number of one country hardware inventory;
2. Modernisation of their weapons, eg, Roland SAM is too old to be used to stop the offensive of the. new generations fighter jets;
3. Military science and technology of one country;
4. Economic power of one country, that is, any country must have the financial muscle and means to procure arms to avoid fighting with clubs and knobkerries;
5. The military strength of one country depending on the level of literacy of their militants, eg, half a million of illiterate soldiers can easily be defeated by just only 80 000 educated soldiers. Military research have shown that educated soldiers execute commands better than soldiers with limited cognitive abilities; and
6. Credibility of military academy of one country. In the case of SA and US are run by reputable civilian universities as faculty of military sciences.

Seems like I am not the only one to doubt the mrs so called milltary anyalist?

agaugust: trained nigerian airforce for what ? 95% of our aircraft is different from south africa, except C-130 hercules and AW109 helicopters and those are transports. your air marshal praised nigerian air force...

" Earlier, the Chief Director, Air Policy and Plans of South African Air Force, Maj.-Gen. Zakes Msimang, commended NAF for the high level of professionalism and enthusiasm displayed during the event.

Msimang assured that the South African Air Force would work with NAF to built a powerful and formidable air force in Africa that would meet global standards. "I must be honest; I am overwhelmed by the level of professionalism and enthusiasm displayed by the Nigerian Air Force.

"From what we have observed, we can see a platform of collaboration through which we can put more effort to ensure that we built a formidable air force in Africa."

weblink source : http://allafrica.com/stories/201205190449.html

a real defense analyst would know that aircrafts are only a portion of what makes a air force. a important position yes but just a portion.

agaugust: south african army was defeated by Seleka rebels in CAR. we spent months of march and april to argue that on this thread, especially comments from @andrewza, @patriot4 and @patriot3.

remove propaganda and the truth is revealed. south african air force reservist @snydergy runs away from here anytime the topic is discussed. his conscience tells him the truth.

http://mampoer.co.za/helmoed-heitman/the-battle-in-bangui

i go and post a 40 page report you refuse to read, claiming it is propaganda. Even though nigerians have nothing against "HELMOED HEITMAN" and SA media when it suits them. Not to mention what every one to trust nigerian government source.

Fact are.
just over 200 SA light infantry fought around 3000 rebels most of whom where mercs from sudan and chad.

SA suverd 14 dead 22 wounded and inflected over 500 dead on the rebels.

I have posted a source where the rebels admit themselves to have suffered heavy losses in the hundreds.

So once again proof me wrong.

Fighter Pilot: Agaugust I am an Air Force officer and would not necessarily mention my rank for intelligence purposes. I accidentally bumped into this forum thinking it was a discourse on global military research projects. So, again if I may ask, what makes you think that SANDF is just a walk in the park?

he is not right in the head that is all. I thinks he has been in America to long and thinks nigeria is america

agaugust:
Seleka rebels have showed south african army weakness in battle and military strategic combat planning.

14 dead south africans vs over 500 dead seleka. you clearly insane only mistake SA made was intelligence side. we assumed the regional and local forces would actually put up a fight and not run away.

agaugust: in 3 years about a total one million nigerian univerity graduates aged 20 to 29 years go through paramilitary training under nigerian army, about 300,000 youth annually. over 3 million youths trained in the last 10 years.

nigerian civil defence is equal to a gendarme status with training and light weapons as special forces for COIN operations, number is huge, but i need to find out current figures.

nigeria produces AK-47 and FN-FAL, other imported combat rifles are stored in the armoury never used.

it takes one month to train a man to use AK-47 with basic infantry skills. how long did seleka rebels train in a standard military academy ?

you dont know nigeria.

.

nigeria has around 80,000 civil defense force.
I doubt they have 1 million AK47 in stock and dixon could not produce that many in 1 year.

I could train you to shoot a assault rifle in 2 days if you don't care about train on legal, safety and other components. a bare bone follow order course to die in about 2 weeks. and in the end you will get a solder that know how to shoot and die. that is it. Your basic personal clerc in the SANDF gets more training. A protection force member gets 3 months excluding basic training and only leans urban combat. A infantry solder gets 6 months excluding basic training. A solder with 1 month training is good for one thing. To die that is it.


most where mercs from sudan and chad, there officers and senior NCOs where mainly ex military. The officer who led the attack on the SA solders was ex CAR army and trained by South Africans.



it has nothing to do with nigeria but every thing to do with logic.

agaugust: in 3 years about a total one million nigerian univerity graduates aged 20 to 29 years go through paramilitary training under nigerian army, about 300,000 youth annually. over 3 million youths trained in the last 10 years.

nigerian civil defence is equal to a gendarme status with training and light weapons as special forces for COIN operations, number is huge, but i need to find out current figures.

nigeria produces AK-47 and FN-FAL, other imported combat rifles are stored in the armoury never used.

it takes one month to train a man to use AK-47 with basic infantry skills. how long did seleka rebels train in a standard military academy ?

you dont know nigeria.

.

nigeria has around 80,000 civil defense force.
I doubt they have 1 million AK47 in stock and dixon could not produce that many in 1 year.

I could train you to shoot a assault rifle in 2 days if you don't care about train on legal, safety and other components. a bare bone follow order course to die in about 2 weeks. and in the end you will get a solder that know how to shoot and die. that is it. Your basic personal clerc in the SANDF gets more training. A protection force member gets 3 months excluding basic training and only leans urban combat. A infantry solder gets 6 months excluding basic training. A solder with 1 month training is good for one thing. To die that is it.


most where mercs from sudan and chad, there officers and senior NCOs where mainly ex military. The officer who led the attack on the SA solders was ex CAR army and trained by South Africans.



it has nothing to do with nigeria but every thing to do with logic.

CAMEROONPRIDE: Don't mind the airhead, Ethiopia can't b ahead naija

army of 135,000 and 3000 air force so not small
265 t55/t62 tanks a pretty common tank in africa and for the most part old 450 other AFV from BDRM,BMPs and BTR152

10SPH in 155m
around 400 towed all calber
around 50 BM21s

SA2 and 3 SAMS plus a few guns(SP and towed) and manpads.

organized in to 4 army corps with 1 mech division and 4-6 infantry divisions.

they a large army but most of it seems to be light infantry.

air force has
15 mig 21s, 12 mig 23s and 11 su27
4 su 24s
9 AN-12 and 3 C130s
18 hinds 15 24s and 3 35s
12 mi8/mi17
10 mi6
plus a bunch of other light aircraft helicopters.
A very strong air force but with only 3000 personal must have a small tail.

over all. Army is big but light air force has lots of teeth but don't know how sharp they will be with such a short tail