₦airaland Forum

Reasons please

Quote from: doyenn on Today at 04:56:39 AM
whatever name u may called him,it's same Almighty we're all taking about. It was the english bible that translate it to God and not the original language that was brought by Jesus and Allah is what the Q'uran called it,it's still the language that it was reveal with. All you need to know is that we all have one Almighty God to put is simpler.


pfffft! Nonsense. What original language did Jesus Christ and allah bring? We don't share one almighty God with muslims if that is what you are insinuating.

No problem if thats how you want it.

Quote from: doyenn on Today at 04:56:39 AM
I think the problem we have in religion is basically the language difference. If some of us here can simply understand the arabic,you'll know that the Q'uran reveal the best history concerning all the prophets and the book which they were sent to use.


If the problem were merely about language we wont even be here discussing it. The difference between islam and christianity is like comparing light and darkness. No matter how much muslims attempt to spin this, a loving God who came to die for u and me does not compare at all to an evil, belligerent slave master whose only wish is to see his slaves herded down into hell like cattle.

A God that died for christians' sins
Hey, be careful, dont bring the issue of loving father here or else I will give you some verse where men, women, children, cattle, oxen were killed mercillesly

If indeed the quran reveals the "best history of all the prophets" can u tell me by the quran where David was born, who his father was and how many brothers he had?

Maybe you supply us. You know that this is school and we learn everyday. so do us proud by supplying the answer.

Thanks

@davidylan


where did you learn to use the word 'hate' for what your God created?
At times, I wonder where you get your confusion from and am sure not from the bible. How could you use the word 'hate' for what God created. Dont you know that its a strong word that shouldnt be used. You should have used another word instead. Jesus said that not what goes into the mouth defile a man but what cometh out of it.

I pity your soul because what you are doing is one of those things that will make some to enter Hell.

Now back to the topic, it is your problem to hate muslims. But be rest assured that you will be held accountable for whatever you say.

So keep it up

Soldier of Christ.


@Babyosis

babs don reincarnate  
allahu arched bar!

Your eyes don dey do somehow huh. You no dey see road again. You are confused abi.

Make u try dey chop enough vegetables so that u go dey see road well well.

Keep confusing yourself.






@Pilgrim

Most of the worries you have concerning the the deity of Jesus as to why and how He was the Son of God have been soundly dealt with in other threads. So, if you put in a little more effort, you'll find that those are nothing to worry about at all.

Where did you deal with it. Hope you remember that I posed some questions to christians regarding his deity but none of you answered my questions. Your friend Telly B changed the topic and never answered the questions. In case you need the questions, here they are:


1.To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether?

2.Christians assert that Jesus claimed to be God when they quote him in John 14:9: "He that has seen me has seen the Father". Didn’t Jesus clearly say that people have never seen God, as it says in John 5:37: "And the father himself which Has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE"?

3.Christians say that Jesus was God because he was called Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, and "savior". Ezekiel was addressed in the Bible as Son of Man. Jesus spoke of "the peace makers" as Sons of God. Any person who followed the Will and Plan of God was called SON OF GOD in the Jewish tradition and in their language (Genesis 6:2,4; Exodus 4:22; Psalm 2:7; Romans 8:14). "Messiah" which in Hebrew means "God’s anointed" and not "Christ", and "Cyrus" the person is called "Messiah" or "the anointed". As for "savior", in II KINGS 13:5, other individuals were given that title too without being gods. So where is the proof in these terms that Jesus was God when the word son is not exclusively used for him alone?

4.Christians claim that Jesus acknowledged that he and God were one in the sense of nature when he says in John 10:30 "I and my father are one". Later on in John 17:21-23, Jesus refers to his followers and himself and God as one in five places. So why did they give the previous "one" a different meaning from the other five "ones?

5.Is God three-in-one and one in three simultaneously or one at a time?

6.If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

7.If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

8.If God is three and one at the same time, who was the God in Heaven within three days between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrect ion?

9.Christians say that: "The Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father". In simple arithmetic and terms therefore, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F ¹ S ¹ H (meaning, "not equal". Isn’t that a contradiction to the Christian dogma of Trinity in itself ?

10.If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?

11.Why do Christians say that God is three-in-one and one in three when Jesus says in Mark 12:29: "The Lord our God is one Lord" in as many places as yet in the Bible?

12.If belief in the Trinity was such a necessary condition for being a Christian, why didn’t Jesus teach and emphasize it to the Christians during his time? How were those followers of Jesus considered Christians without ever hearing the term Trinity? Had the Trinity been the spinal cord of Christianity, Jesus would have emphasized it on many occasions and would have taught and explained it in detail to the people.

13.Christians claim that Jesus was God as they quote in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This is John speaking and not Jesus. Also, the Greek word for the first occurrence of God is HOTHEOS which means "the God" or "God" with a capital "G", while the Greek word for its second occurrence is "TONTHEOS", which means "a god " or "god" with a small "g". Isn’t this dishonesty and inconsistency on the part of those translating the Greek Bible? ? Isn’t such quotation in John 1:1 recognized by every Christian scholar of the Bible to have been written by a Jew named Philo Alexandria way before Jesus and John?

14.Wasn’t the word "god" or "TONTHEOS" also used to refer to others as well as in II Corinthians 4:4 "(and the Devil is) the god of this world" and in Exodus 7:1 "See , I have made thee (Moses) a god to Pharaoh"?

My dear, this is wishful thinking. There's no verse in the Qur'an that negates the irrevocable decree of Allah to take every Muslim to hell according to Sura 19:71. What you don't realize is that your Muslim translators have clearly stated the fact that Muslims will ENTER hell fire; and I'll quote just a few for you (note the graphic language that strengthens the point):

  [Dr. Ghali]:
  'And decidedly not one of you (there is), except that he will go (herded) down to it;
  that, for your Lord, has been a thing decreed, a must.'

  [Muhammad Sarwar]:
  'It is the inevitable decree of your Lord that every one of you will be taken to hell.'

  [Arberry]:
  'Not one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; that for thy Lord is a thing decreed,
  determined.'

  [Sale]:
  'There shall be none of you but shall descend into the same [hell]:
  [This] is an established decree upon thy Lord.'

Please note especially Sale's translation: it does not say merely that Muslims will "see" hell like someone watching a home video - rather, it clearly says that Muslims will descend into (i.e., ENTER) the same Hell!

Do me proud by posting the verses from 66 to 75  of the translators quoted above.

Allah in the Qur'an does not make any excuses for anyone, so don't even try to wangle an interpretation to excuse any Muslim at all from that verse! The tafsirs (commentaries on the Qur'an) accurately confirm the fact that every Muslim will be taken to hell to enter into it (see for example (i) Tafsir al-Jalalayn; (ii) Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs; (iii) Tafsir Ibn Kathir).

Do me proud by posting the tafsirs us to ses please

You can't come here dribbling your fallacy and making that verse to read "see" when infact even Muhammad himself stated that even Muslims - everyone, "whether he is a pious man or sinner" will enter Hell! (see Ma'āriful-Qu'rān by Maulānā Mufti Muhammad Shafi' (revised by Maulānā Muhammad Taqi 'Usmani, Vol. 16, pg. 63].

Please post the tafsirs here with the commentaries please.

All the other verses that Muslims try to explain away as in order to dribble round this issue are mere excuses - they do not stand in the face of the fact that Allah says is is established upon him as an IRREVOCABLE decree! There's not going to be any abrogation of that ayat!

Supply me as requested above please.

Quote from: ustaz on Yesterday at 10:29:55 AM
You said quite correctly that we do not worship the same God.

You're making your own assumption in order to excuse the fact that the Qur'an does not stand

on its own merit unless it has to make recourse to the Bible! What you're arguing for here is the direct opposite of what Muhammad claims; and if you feel that argument has any substance, it automatically makes you a non-Muslim; or otherwise makes you a Muslim that does not follow the tenets of Muhammad's religion.

It is not an assumption. Your folks have been saying that we do not worship same God you cant deny that. Please let me also have what Muhammed (saw) claimed.



Quote from: ustaz on Yesterday at 10:29:55 AM
You claim Jesus died on the cross for your sake if the is true why then did he say Eli Eli la ma sa bach-thani (my lord my lord why have thou forsaken me) while he was on that cross. Matt27:46 also Mark15:34. why was he was crying? wasn’t he prepare to die for u?. Did he forget as at that time that he is about to die for your sin which is his main mission?

Muhammad clearly believed that Jesus would die when He comes back. The problem is that Muhammad puts the death of Jesus Christ at the end of the world instead of at the time of the Crucifixion recorded in the Bible. No worries - he was often fond of misinterpreting Biblical narratives.

You are so hilarious. Now to all of you christians out there, Muhammed wrote the Quran. We all know that he was an illiterate, so where did he get the stories from and how did he write the book when he was an illiterate? Is there anywhere in the bible where Jesus said that he would be crucified?. Dont go quoting psalms for me cus its not for him.

Even so, I would like you ask you a few questions to make you think further on this:

Ok.

(a) why do you think that Jesus would die at all if He did not die in the first instance before He went to heaven as the Qur'an states?

Sister, he didnt die nor was he crucified. God saved him by not putting him to shame. As a result of that, he will come to tell you that he didnt die on the cross, he wasnt sent to you, and will die as he is supposed to and that is the reason he will be sign of the hour.



(b) Muslims say that someone else was put in place of Jesus at the Crucifixion: who was that "someone else" and what was his name?


Now answer these questions

a. Is it Jesus that was put on the cross?
b. If it was Jesus and he is God, why did he cry to himself for forsaken himself
c. Why did he cry to himself for forsaken himself when he knew that he came to be crucified?
d. Is he not aware of heavenly contract to come and be crucified in order to wash away your sins?

Quote from: ustaz on Yesterday at 10:29:55 AM
Davidlyn claim that the Qur’an was copied from the bible because according to him the bible is the only authentic word of God

It is not davidylan making that claim - it is clear to any reader of the Qur'an that Muhammad was plagiarizing and re-editing Biblical narratives to suit his purposes in Islam.

How come he plagiarised when we all know that he was an illiterate?

Quote from: ustaz on Yesterday at 10:29:55 AM
Then he should answer the following questions
- - -
- - -
If u can’t answer them they know that Islam is the only religion Allah will accept; now u will not have any excuse with God since I have told u the truth with evidence. Sura 3:85 He that seek any other religion than lslam it will not be accepted from him and on the day of judgement will be among the losers.


All the so-called contradictions you're noising here have been dealt with in another thread.

Let me have the thread you dealt with them please.

The one thing I want you to answer is this:

  If you believe that the Bible has contradictions and is corrupt,

 a/  why have Muslims been trying to "prove" the prophethood of Muhammad from John's Gospel?

same issue again. Now to answer your question, which of the gospels did God give to Jesus? Is it the gospel of mathew, Luke, Mark, John, Romans, Corinthians, Hebrew etc because we all know that he came with a book not 27 books.

b/  where in the Qur'an does Allah claim that the Bible contradicts itself?

Hope you are not trying to defend what is not worth defending. It is very glaring that it contradicts. You dont need someone to tell you that.

c/  why is it that Allah still asked you Muslims to believe in the same books of the Bible that you now claim are "corrupt"??

Same issue again. Yes we are told to believe in the books. God did not tell us to believe in the bible but in the books. Now can you beat your chest to it that the gospels in existence now is the same as the one given to Jesus. Were 27 books given to Jesus?

Is the bible in existence written before Jesus' death or after his death.

Was he given any revelation during his time?

You chaps really have no grasp of your own religion before seeking to pour out the same antics the mullahs taught you. The mullahs themselves can't agree on what the Qur'an says, let alone the so-called contradictions and corruptions that you want to argue and allege against the Bible.

Dont worry, we shall see as we proceed.


I need answers to my questions ASAP.

Thanks

@vicjustice



Jesus once said that it is not what goes into the mouth defile a man but what cometh out of it. (sorry for not putting it the way it was said in the bible)

Islam is a religion of peace.

we don tell them tire, dem no gree hear ooooooooooo


Maa Salam

Tell them oooooooooo


Maa Salam


He who have ears, let him hear.

@Doyenn


Thumbs up brother

May Allah be pleased with you.



@Davidylan, Pilgrim etc

When you are through with him, you will answer some questions from babs too.


Peace.

@pilgrim


Let me have your understanding of Quran 19 v 71.


Let me also have the contradiction on the above verse as stated by you.


Thanks.

@pilgrim

You are going round in circles and saying nothing. I have provided a link in which I answered 4get me's. Go there and provide some questions out of 4get me's that i didnt answer.

@pilgrim

I just want to know this: Is Muhammad's word more superior to Allah's Qur'an?

No, just like Jesus' words not superior to his creator.

The Qur'an does not mention any bridge over which everyone will pass over hell. Those who have translated the Qur'an without the usual political adjustments of the mullahs know very well that the Qur'an says Muslims will enter into Hell fire. Your explanations are only trying to water down the Qur'an.

You know what. I laugh at times when I read your post. You are confused cos the Quran didnt put bridge. Let me ask you, does the Good News Bible has the same English as that of KJV and do all the versions give the same meaning to some verses in the bible. Please let me have your response to that and I will you verse from different bibles telling different things.

what is your understanding of this verse:

71. There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished

What is your understanding of 'passing over it'?

That is why in another thread I asked the question: "The Qur'an and the Hadith - Which One?" Muslims should be careful to tell us if Muhammad's words are superior to Allah's Qur'an, then I will provide what exactly Allah's said in the Qur'an and how this idea of a bridge is a direct contradiction of that which is in the Qur'an.

Sister, honestly, I keep saying telling you as a christian to always be careful when dealing with muslims because as we proceed, I will be giving your verses that contradict each other. i.e saying of Jesus and that of God.

Now to the issue raised, I want you to provide me what Allah said in that verse, the idea of the bridge and the contradiction therein.


Thanks

@pilgrim

Insert Quote
The "explanation" you offered introduces what is not in the Qur'an. I left a question there for you: Is the word of Muhammad in the hadiths more important than what Allah's Qur'an has stated?

The Qur'an does not mention any bridge over which Muslims will pass; and the "bridge" in the hadith contradicts the clear decree of Sura 19:71.

Questions for you.


If the Quran does not include a bridge. What is your understanding of passing over it?

What are they passing over?

I want you to provide explanation on how the bridge contradicts quran 19 v 71

Thanks
How does

Ok

@pilgrim

One of the most hilarious things I ever read on this motherboard is this statement by you, babs787: "it is never my turn". (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-39462.64.html#msg890477) You were asked a few questions long before stimulus came to Nairaland, and instead of offering answers, you cried as above.

You've demonstrated long ago that you're not on this motherboard to discuss. And trying to pretend you ever answer questions here is the same thing you always do - nothing new.

Your post surprised me. Funny you could your sister's question but couldnt locate my response to 4get me's. Your sister tried diverting the topic and I made her know that the topic was 'was jesus crucified'. Since you came up with that link, you should be able to come up with my response to 4get me's questions too if you are honest to yourself. Its just unfortunate that i couldnt lay my hands on the thread where I answered him but the link below will do.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-41030.0.htm.

@all


I can see that you are ready for me. I will soon be back for this thread. We will know if he was crucified and if he was really like Jonah.

People can be very funny.

All the same, I remain GUNNERS 4 LIFE

@david

Hey dude, I read a post by a brother named Usalawu that really touched me and as a result will not go much into biblical verses but will try explaining things to you as Allah permits me. I will try to be as nice as I can

Based on this, there will be believers IN hell right? Who are these "believers" who will be in hell and will require intercession from angels, martyrs and prophets to get them out?

Na wa o brother. There are some muslims that will be in Hell temporarily as a result of their deeds. When I say 'temporary', I mean that they will be in hell for some time and will be removed after serving their punishment.

It is necessary to mention here that a day in the hereafter is like 50,000 years of our earthly existence. hence if somebody is sentenced to a month's stay in hell, that means he will be there for one million and five hundred thousand years. A year therein will be about 18 million!.

Some will be in hell as a result of their bad deeds but will be removed later after serving their terms as a result of the faith they are having.

How can the same hell be a place of punishment of ubelievers and a place of wound cleansing for believers? What group of believers will end up in hell and how do u know those who will have to go there or not?

I have answered you. It will be a place of wound cleasing in the sense that someone that has faith will be removed after serving his punishment. I want you to know that belivers will not be in hell for ever but will be there according to the weight of their sins and will be removed as a result of the faith they will be having.

Hell is not an abode for all but for the proud and the haughty ones, the sinners, criminaqs, polytheists, unbelievers, hypocrites, transgressors, rejecters of truth, tyrants, murderers, opposers of Allah and His Messenger, the unjust, concealer of His revelation, persecutor of believers, those who commit suicide, those who prefer this world to the Hereafter, the cruel, those who devour orphan's property, women who dress nakedly etc

and while you are at it could you please explain the difference between hell fire, flaming fire, scorching fire and fierce fire. Thank you.

Each gate of hell is meant for specific class of sinners. Every sin has its own punishment. The difference lies in the fact that every sinner will serve its punishment according to the weight of the sins and will be in the one that fits his sins.

For example, a person that steals 100will not receive the same punishment as someone that steals millions. Every sinner will receive punishment according to the weight of his sins.


Have I explained myself?

@david

What a disgraceful hypocrite. Have you answered the sura 19:71 questions on georgee's thread? Yet you keep claiming to be "coming".

Go to the thread and read my explanation.

@david

In case you missed it, this is the link

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-64311.0.html

@david

Insert Quote
blabs787, you have jumped to another thread leaving the other one unanswered eh? stil hunting for more excuses?

I have done that. You only need to go to the thread and reap up my explanation. Babs has never avoided you and will never do that.

@david

blabs787, all these long and boring tirade and NOT A SINGLE indication of whether my explanation was right or wrong? what a shame!

There is no need telling you if you are right or wrong especially to a guy like you that is neither interested in learning nor putting his thinking faculty to a test


Before going further, I will still implore you to read the footnote of Quran 68 v 42 for further explanation.

This is Khan's translation:

Sura 19: 68. So by your Lord, surely, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Shayâtin (devils) (with them), then We shall bring them round Hell on their knees.
69. Then indeed We shall drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against the Most Beneficent (Allâh).
70. Then, verily, We know best those who are most worthy of being burnt therein.

Thanks for that.

71. There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished[].

Everybody will pass over the Hell. A bridge called As-Sirat will be extended over the Hell in which everybody will pass over it.

72. Then We shall save those who use to fear Allâh and were dutiful to Him. And We shall leave the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers, etc.) therein (humbled) to their knees (in Hell)

I will explain to you in your question below.

With the exception of the obvious attempt to "correct" verse 71 by making it "pass over it" instead of the correct "go down into it" there is really no change. If we assume that Khan's translation of verse 71 is correct then how do u explain verse 72?

How do you "save" those who fear allah if they are merely passing over hell and not going down into it?

Like I said, the Great Bridge called As-Sirat will be extended over the Hell.

The companions asked, 'O Allah's Messenger, what is the Siraat? He said, 'it is a slippery bridge on which there are hooks, tongs and spits (like a thorny seed that is wide at one end and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent end).

The flame of the Jahannam will be rising increasingly, while the thorny plants therein too, will be protruding forthwith. The bridge will be intensely enveloped in darkness but the light of the virtuous ones will guide them.

71. There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished[].

Everybody will pass over it. The first group from the believers will pass over it in a twinkle of an eye like lightning. Those following them would pass over with the speed of the wind and then the speed of flying birds and the speed of horses and camels according to the quality of their deeds.

When the quality of people's deeds decline, the speed will slow down till a man will come who will not be able to walk but will creep along. The last person on the bridge will cross as if being dragged over the bridge. On both sides of the bridge will be hanging hooks which will attach themselves to those they are commanded to seize. He who is merely scratched will be saved, but those who are heaped up will fall into the fire.


72. Then We shall save those who use to fear Allâh and were dutiful to Him. And We shall leave the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers, etc.) therein (humbled) to their knees (in Hell)

How do you LEAVE unbelievers in hell if they were not there with some set of people in the first place?

I have provided explanation above.

Who are those being taken out of hell in order to LEAVE the zalimun therein in hell?

Those who will enter hell will be led into it in batches. The last batch of its denizens will be those who will have been heaped up by the hanging hooks on the sides of the Siraat. There are those who will be in the hell forever. There are those who will be there for a while. The latter people will be those who believed in the oneness of Allah but are guilty of one sin or the other which will make them to be adjudged to hell. There are seven stages in Hell which popularly known as doors or gates of the Hell

1. Jahannam (Hell fire)
2. Dhatalahab flaming fire
3. Humatamah crushing disaster
4. Sa'iir Burning
5. Saqar scroching fire
6. Jahiim fierce fire
7. Haawiyah abyss of fire.

At a stage, Allah will allow the prophets, angels, martyrs and the believers to intercede for those in the Hell who testified to His oneness but whose deeds could not merit Al-Jannah. These people believe in Allah but were deficient in their good deeds.

The Hell to them will be like a purgatory or hospital established for the treatment of their painful diseases. Consequent upon their sufferings, there will be cries, shrieks etc that will not ceased till after treatment is achieved.

After their thorough cleaning, Allah will allow request from those in Paradise to intercede for them. Allah will tell them to take out from Hell those in whose heart there is faith equal to the weight of one gold. Then those in whose heart there is faith equal to half a gold (Dinar), then those having faith equal to an atom etc.


Let me stop there, hope you understood?

@pilgrim

This campaign is sadly weak. We all know you never answer questions, let alone your own roundabout arguments. And yes, stimulus has answered most of your questions.

Cant he speak for himself? Let me have the questions that I have not answered and I will show you all the questions your brother has avoided. So answer the guy's question and when you are through, I will come with my own questions on the same topic.

@Ilechi


Hi babygirl.


You should exercise patience, your test is not yet up to 2 weeks and you shouldnt expect anything now. Am not saying that they would call you after 2 weeks but that you should hold on cos the exam are in batches. From the information gathered, you must score up to 63% before you woul be called and if you are called, you will do 2 oral interviews in which if you are chosen qualifies you for the business school and other things will follow.

So keep praying. It is well.

@frosbel

My God of the bible tells me to love even my enemies and leave vengance to him but the Islamic God wants me to behead other fellow humans to inherit his kingdom.

Are you saying the truth brother? Let me hear from you so that I will know how to come in from your bible.


Thanks

@kuns

IDINRETE,

Where were you when your brother stimulus called me names.

I was just stating the facts , a dumb ass is someone who ignores facts.

Please I will advise you to take it easy especially when dealing with a guy like stimulus that loves roundabout argument. I have asked many questions on that same issue but he avoided them. Rather than answer my questions, he and some of his folks said that i have been deriding jesus. Funny set of people.

Lets see where this thread will lead to

Na wa ooooo. But let me wait and be reading.

@david

lol georgee, are you still postulating these lies?

Really?

[19:72] Then we rescue the righteous, and leave the transgressors in it, humiliated.

I decided to take mustay's advice and read other verses around verse 71 to understand it in context.

Nobody is forcing you to accept any body's advice. its a free world. You are free to go ahead with your mischief by making mockery of yourself.

How do you RESCUE someone who is merely passing over a bridge? Why did the quran say allah would leave the transgressors in it if they were not already there with some other set of people?

Honestly, I don't want to indulge in roundabout discussion again but learn t that you are having comprehension problem and loves behaving like a kid, so i came onboard to help you out.

Brother, if you are not satisfied with the explanations provided, go to Khan's translation of the Holy Quran, read the chapter from the beginning and when you get to the particular verse that is confusing you, go to the footnote and you would be directed to the footnote of a chapter of another verse, read through it and you will understand what you have not been able to.

But if you are not okay but up to playing pranks, then babs will give you the way you want it.

@Barikade

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
Are you referring to God of the Ot or NT? In case you missed it, read below please.

Are your arguments against Jews or Christians, babs787?

Is God of the OT different from NT?
Do Jews and Christians serve different God?

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
2 Chronicles 15:13:All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

Can you please explain the reason behind the killing?

That verse did not state that God ordered a jihad there, please. It was rather pointing to the covenant that the Jews made among themselves, if you read it in its context:

(12) And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart
and with all their soul; (13) That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put
to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (14) And they sware unto the LORD
with a loud voice, and with shouting, and with trumpets, and with cornets.

As you can see, there were no killings in the verse you quoted.

Brother, I want you to know that we are not kids here, so please let us be honest when attending to issues here. Now you claimed that there was no killing but this is part of the verse 'that whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put
to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman', meaning that whoever does not seek him would be killed. Anybody that did not seek him would be killed. And if I may ask you, why did God want to kill anybody that would not seek his face? What do you call that? Is that not killing in his cause?



Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
Numbers 31:7,17-18: ""They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man, Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but
save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

What is the reason behind the killing?

Read from verse 1:

Numbers 31: (1) The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, (2) "Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people." (3) So Moses spoke to the people, saying, "Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the LORD's vengeance on Midian.

I thought God is of peace, must he avenge the death of the people of Israel?

Now, it may be asked: what was Midian's fault? Were they entirely blameless as to have invited unprovoked attack upon themselves?

On the contrary, we find the reason for this engagement given earlier in Numbers 25. The Midianites were the principal instigators of idolatory and lewdness - two very serious issues that were deliberately forged against Israel to weaken them spiritually:

Brother, but you blame muslims for fighting the pagans in Mecca when they oppressed muslims and never allowed them to practice their faith.

(16) And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, (17) "Harass the Midianites and strike them down,
(18) for they have harassed you with their wiles, with which they beguiled you in the matter of Peor,
and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of the chief of Midian, their sister, who was killed on
the day of the plague on account of Peor."

The Israelites did not just get up and go after the Midianites in order to 'prove' that Moses engaged in jihad. The verses you quote should be read in their contexts.

The same goes for Muslims too. Muslim did not just wake up and started fighting the pagans, the pagans caused it and Muslims had to repel aggression.

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
Numbers 25 v 17: Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."

Can you please explain the above too?

Refer just above.

Brother just like the war fought by the prophet against the pagans.

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
Numbers 31 v 7-12: 7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

Explain the above please.

As above.

Can you compare the above to that of the prophet? You do accuse Muhammed of fighting but here we read that God commanded Moses to kill them.

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
Quote
# Is there any Hadith or even verse in the Qur'an that teaches that Jesus Christ went to war against people in just the same way that Muhammad did?

In case you missed the verses above, here is another verses for you.

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)

Since when did Zechariah 14:1-2 become a part of the Hadith or Qur'an? Do you mind taking a second look at his question inserted in your quote, please? Did Jesus go out to war against people in just the way that Muhammad did?

Brother, this is part of the question 'has Jesus Christ went to war against people in just the same way that Muhammad did?' He was trying to say that Jesus never went to war and I decided to give him verse where such happened.

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
Why the killing and sharing of spoils?

Zechariah 14:1-2 does not rpove Jihad; if it does, then you have clearly made the case that the fundamental meaning of Jihad is warfare; since you're using those verses in the Bible to suppose the meaning of Jihad.

Is Jihad not fighting in the cause of God? Please brother, why did God want to fight them and what is the reason for his fighting and killing them?

Meanwhile, Zechariah 14:1-2 declares what the hostile nations will do against Jerusalem: they shall besiege the city and take it captive as they had always wanted to do (cf. Psa. ) - so God gathers them against Jerusalem to do just as they had always wished:

(1) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
(2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and
the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

But when you read on through verse 3, you will find what happens next: the LORD visits those hostile nations who came against Jerusalem, and He judges them for their plunders against the city and its inhabitants:

(3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought
in the day of battle. (4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst
thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and
half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall
reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days
of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

My question again, why did God fight? Is the killing not for his cause?

Compare this with Joel 3:1-3 --

(1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity
of Judah and Jerusalem, (2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into
the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my
heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
(3) And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold
a girl for wine, that they might drink.

So, if you take time to read the verses you quoted, they do not have the meaning of the Islamic Jihad you're trying to cop out from the Bible.

What do you understand by Jihad, is it not striving in God's cause? Why did the above happened and why did God intervene?

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
Brother, you claimed that Muhammed was a warmonger, please explain the below verses and the reason for killing by your God Jesus of the OT.

Is this merely for the sake of argument; or you actually believe that Jesus Christ is the God of the OT?

I didnt believe and you should please tell if the God of Peace in the NT is the same as that of the OT

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

Brother, how will they know a virgin? Why the killing of innocent women and kids?

He even ordered the killing of women

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

Another needless repetition: refer above.

No brother, must you kill women and innocent kids because you are fighting for GOD? Is Jihad not the same as fighting for God in HIS CAUSE)

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
Now Muhammed fought the pagans to repel oppression and never transgressed limit, but here God Jesus of the OT, ordering the killing of men, women, children and everything that breathes

The case you're bringing up for Muhammad as never transgressing limits is not supported by Muslim sources; neither does Muhammad's adventures square with what Moses did. By making reference to "God Jesus of the OT", it would mean that you see Him as the God of the OT, yes or no?

Let me have the sources please. Is God of the OT same as NT?

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
Deuteronomy 20:16: However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

Can you tell me why he ordered the killing of living things, even animals?

Deuteronomy 20:17 & 18
"But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God."

So brother, is that not killing in his cause?

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 04:42:53 PM
1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

Why did they kill woman, infant, sucking, oxen, sheep, camel and ass, please for what purpose and did those animals and the innocent children offend God?

So, they offended God - which would mean that Islam teaches precisely the same thing, NO?

So animals too offended God!!!!!!!!!!!

When you go through the threads, you will find that you're clearly mixing up issues. I simply want to know just one thing, babs787: what is the basis of your deriding Jesus Christ, regardless of whatever anyone does or says? I just simply want to know what is informing your attitude so that I know how next to relate with you.

I am not mixing up issues. christians have been saying that muhammed was a warrior forgetting to go through their bible too.

Brother, you are also of those that says I have been deriding him, please let me have a post, verse or anything in which I have derided him and I will back it up with verses from the two books.

I am not here to deride him because he is one of the prophets muslims believe in. so if you think I have done that, please supply me and I will respond. Lastly, it is not what you may be thinking, babs is not here to condemn any prophet but to let you know that most of what christians have been attributing to jesus are false.

I will be looking forward to reading just one of what you called 'deriding jesus'

Thanks

@Barikade

@babs787,

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 06:08:22 PM
Can you please serve me the other meanings?

Muslim translators in their commentaries point to the meaning of Jihad as including armed/military warfare; not just as retaliation - but just so that Islam may be established through those armed warfare. Besides, the commentators actually believe that this idea of Jihad is binding upon ALL Muslims; so that even those Muslims who are opposed to such an idea are considered hypocrites.

Okay, we shall read on for verification

My persuasions above are taken from the footnote on The Noble Qur'an, Sura 2:190 --

"Jihad is holy fighting in Allah's Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry.
It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars.
By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior (which means only Allah
has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated.

By abandoning Jihad Islam is

destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position;
their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish.

Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty,
or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite."

Thanks brother. I have seen it too. Jihad there did not include only taking up arms for defence but also any good deeds in the cause of Allah. Now go to the second paragraph and without being biased, it is clearly understood that Jihad mentioned there is for self defence when a muslim land is usurped, muslim is allowed to fight the opperessed.

Now for better understanding, I will provide you some verses on the meaning of jihad

Jihad by preaching word of Allah

Quran 25 v 52: So obey not the disbelievers but strive against them (by preaching) with utmost endeavors with it (the Quran)

Quran 22 v 78: And strive hard in Allah's cause as you ought to strive (with sincerity and with all you efforts that his name should be superior). He has chosen you (to convey his message of Islamic monotheism to mankind by inviting them to His religion of Islam) and Has not laid upon you a religion of any hardship.

The above verse is saying that Jihad is performed through preaching ALLAH's word.

Quran 8 v 72: Verily, those who believed and emigrated and strove and fought with their property and their lives in the cause of Allah as well as those who gave ( them) assylum and help, these are (all) allies to one another and as to those who believe but did not emigrate (to you o Muhammed) you owe no duty of protection to them until they emigrate but if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance and Allah is the All seer of what you do.


I can go on but will stop there.

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 06:08:22 PM
You make me laugh with this your non-hostility. Did Muhammed kill christians during his time and in all honesty, can you tell me why muslims fought during his time and when you are through with that, other issues will come in from your bible.

Can I answer your question with these, so that we can focus on what is at stake here: why do Muslims today often refer to the West as "Christian" with such hate? And what did Muhammad actually mean in his several pronouncements against the Jews? Why does Islam seek to kill a Muslim convert to Christianity or any other religion according to its teachings?

why do Muslims today often refer to the West as "Christian" with such hate

Can you back it up with verses from the Quran/Hadith

And what did Muhammad actually mean in his several pronouncements against the Jews?

Brother, have you found out the reason behind hatred against Islam by the Jews?

Why does Islam seek to kill a Muslim convert to Christianity or any other religion according to its teachings?

Let me have the verses please

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 06:08:22 PM
Let us have the verses please and the reason behind the verses. When you finish serving me, I will take you to some verses in the bible where Jesus ordered the killing of everything that breathes including kids and animals and we will look into why some violent acts in the bible.

I hope you'll be gentlemanly about this and not have to copy and paste repeatedly the same verses which have already been addressed in another thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-53042.96.html#msg1196207


I will surely respond to the link you supplied.

@Barikade

@babs787,

What do you have to fault in Telly B's post that you quoted?

This is one of his quotes:

I[b]ndeed there are so many Muslim practices that are outside the Qur'an.[/b] But of those w[b]hich we do know, they are not entirely divorced from the Qur'an or Hadith. [/b]The one thing that settles any an Islamic injunction is the ijma - the consensus; and that has to be carefully and painstaingly deliberated upon before they are offered to the ummah (Muslim community).

Brother in all honesty, one should think twice before posting anything particularly when it comes to religion. He said that there are many practices which are not in the Quran nor the Hadith, I will want him to serve those things and he shouldn't forget that there are some issues practised by some christians today which are not in anyway in the bible and will be served him after he might have served those he felt muslims do that are not in the Quran/Hadith. He should also know that anything outside the Quran/Hadith is regarded as Bidiah.

@Tayo D

babs787,

Ekabo! Have you been on sabbatical? I thought you had gone to Mecca not to return like 'apostle' olabowale. Grin Grin

No way brother . I have not been around and I am still not around but you all will know when I am back.

Quote
Babs is here
While you are here, kindly attend to this issue raised by Telly B -

Okay sir You have changed the topic huh

1. Where in the Qur'an was Muhammad called "the Last and greatest prophet"?

Quran 5 v 19: O people of the scripture! Now has come to you our Messenger making things clear unto you, after a break in the series of Messengers, lest you say: 'there came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner'. But now has come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And Allah is Able to do all things

Quran 33 v 40: Muhammed is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the last of the prophets and Allah is cognizant of all things.

2. I haven't seen a muslim who could provide a verse in The Qur'an for that. But that is what Muslims call him. No doubt the Qur'an makes the offer that there are NO DISTINCTIONS between all the prophets (Qur'an 3:84);

Brother, we Muslims make no distinction.We Muslims believe in all prophets and their books. The coming of the prophets is like a chain in which a prophet takes over from another. There is always a difference of many thousand years between one prophet and another. Every prophet before the last prophet were sent to their community. As a result of the years between the going and coming of another prophet, the community of the earlier prophet would have perished hence the coming of another prophet to another set of people.

I don't know what you may be thinking to be the distinction but I am telling you that, all the prophets came for their people alone except the last prophet (Muhammed) that came for the whole world. You have the stories of the prophets in the Quran to show you that we believe in them.

We believe in all the prophets likewise in their books because it is one of the articles of faith but can we say the revelations in existence are the same as those given to the prophets?



@Barikade

@babs787,

What do you personally understand by the claim in the Qur'an admonishing Muslims to believe in ALL the prophets? Which prophets, please? And how can you believe in them apart from their writings?

Same issue brother. My understanding of your post above is that it is one of the articles of faith to believe in the prophets and their books. You are not a muslim until you believe in the prophets and their books.

If I say the prophets, I mean those that came right from Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jesus to the last prophet Muhammed (saw).

@david

oga blabs! Welcome o, long time no see! Grin Grin Grin We are happy to read from you today sir, God bless you sir!

Never mind, I am not back yet, but will soon be back. I just breezed in to see how nairaland is doing but noticed that you haven't changed.

Very soon, babs will be back