₦airaland Forum

shadeyinka:
Let me give you another example since it seems you want to completely remove FORETELLING put of prophecy.
2 Kgs 8:12-13:
"And Haz´a-el said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strongholds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child. And Haz´a-el said, But what, is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing? And Eli´sha answered, The LORD hath showed me that thou shalt be king over Syria."

Note what Elisha said: The Lord hath shown me...

But as far as you are concerned, God engineered Hazael to rip up the belly of pregnant women.

Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?

Again, press backward and Go to 1Kings19:15-18 (please check it out!). God made Hazael king of Syria himself (God didn't foresee!). God used Hazael to punish Israel(God didn't foresee!). Now again you see, the "record of future doesn't exist aside what God has declared" is 100% consistent with God's word.

Let me give you another example.
Is Rev9:20-21 a FORETELLING or a FORTHTELLING?
Rev 9:20-21:
"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood; which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

For if it is a FORTHTELLING, then God MADE these men evil so that His words should not go unfulfilled.

Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?

Did it not ring a bell that no literal name was written in revelations?
God was talking about those who would not accept Christ and pledge allegiance to the false Messiah.
Now you see, God didn't make anybody evil.
Again, 100% consistent with the word of God.

shadeyinka:
So what exactly did God say?

God said "Know". God said " Declare"... And those are the pillars of my view.

You are mixing up two different things. I didn't say the Future Exist. What I've affirmed is that the RECORD of the future exists. e.g. the Book of Revelation
1. Record of the Future is NOT
2. Existence of the Future.[.quote]
Like we've ironed out already, we are both talking about the "content". So even if I say " future " I mean "content of the future".
[quote]Record of the Future:
God knows that the man will commit a rape action even before he was born.
Existence of the Future:
Until the man performed the " rape-action", the "rape-action" does not exist.

Yes, I'm saying there is no "record of future", except What God has forth told or permitted.

Why, because God is omnipresent in both TIME and SPACE!

A sentence you still misunderstand.

God cannot have a future Abraham can have a future.
God is the beginning and the End.

It's not my cross. I'm asking you that at that point of " God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah", that the record of "God talking to moses in a burning Bush" is still at that point a record of the future.
So, clarify yourself, since you said *God cannot have a future Abraham can have a future*... The same cases I tendered above is consistent with anyone that His record of his future exist.
Or, let me put it this way;
Just like Abraham, Does God have a record of his future?
*I.e Things he hasn't done yet but He will do in time* just like every other creature.

If God has a future, then there must exist a CHANGE to God. Will God change in the future?
Mal 3:6:
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

I hear.

Prophecy isn't God knowing what a person has forthtold!

Forthtelling is a creative force that compel things to be or exist.
eg.

Gen 1:3:
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
Note:
the power of God enforced the appearance of Light.

Oops! I meant to use the word "Declared" not "forthtold"... So you can reassess it again.

Foretelling is relaying what is yet to exist without enforcement.
eg.

Okay? What do you mean by " without enforcement "?

Matt 2:13:
"And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him."

Note:
God did not compel Herod to seek for the death of the child.

Seen.

Let me accept that "I know.." could be a mere statement of confidence in Abraham and not a Foreknowledge of Abraham (even though Abraham is YET to have a single child at this point).

Like I said, God speaks to things that are yet not as though they are.

Unfortunately, you refused to comment on
Here is another when the Prophet Samuel seem to have an account of the future for Saul.
1 Sam 10:1-7:
"Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance? When thou art departed from me today, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son? Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Beth — el, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine: and they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands. After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp , before them; and they shall prophesy : and the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee."
[/b]
According to you, the Prophet enforced two men to just wander about till they reached Rachel's Sepulchre..
Then three men were compelled to go from Tabor to Bethel... and to each carrying goats, bread and wine...
Then the Prophet enforced a company of prophets to somehow begin to sings and prophesy...

I commented. Check it again.

...

shadeyinka:
The bold is NOT true!
A true statement of the same phrase would be

Until the man performed the " rape-action", the "rape-action" does not exist.

You said so, not God.

Why? In prophecy, accounts of events not yet performed are stated.
The correction to your statement ensures that God will not punish a yet to be done action!

I will address your prophecy question in that your reply wherr you specifically asked about prophecy.

Let's clarify:
Things don't exist UNTIL they are called into existence: By who?

God, You, Devil, Angels and co. Any being with a will and an active force. Howbeit, even if Herod tried to orchestrate Baby Jesus' death, God didn't permit it. So God sometimes will not allow what you declare to come to pass.

Is the calling to existence by God or by the person in question?

The person in question. God didn't stop him, He is not a policeman na, more of A Judge.

Your conclusion is wrong because it puts God under the limitation of His creation (time). According to human limitation, the account of rape didn't exist before it was performed because the rape didn't exist.

You still don't see that until "a future doesn't exist" unlimits God in every way. You are still confined by the "future exist" mentality.

From God point of view, He is omnipresent in time and space, therefore God knows about every detail of the rape even before it was performed.

Yet you claimed God does not have a future .... As at the point of God blessing Abram, the account of God's Adventure with Moses was still in some so-called "future". Why then did you claim God does not have a future?
If I pull this string so far, you will see how much an existing future limits God.

What then is prophecy if God does not know the account of the future?

In God's realm, 1. Prophecy is forthelling 2. Prophecy is Knowing what anyone has forthtold 3.

Gen 18:17-19:
"And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

Check the bolded and the highlight!

You see? He didn't say "Foreknow", My God said " Know".... Press rewind and Go to Genesis 17:5-8
"Neither shall your name be Abram but Abraham; for a father of many nations Have I made thee
6. And I will makethee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
My God did not foreknow Abraham will be a blessing and a Father of many nation, My God Declared/orchestrated and made Abraham A father of Many Nation. That is the word of God and it is true all the time.
Also, (@your highlight) that was God's confidence in Abraham. The same way I have 100% confidence that my wife cannot cheat with another man. This is a similar confidence God had in Job when He struck a daring bet with the Devil.
We both know the Devil knows God far more than any of us here, the clever serpent will never enter into A bet if God has already foreknew the outcome (Now learn something new from God's discussion with the Devil). The Devil knew that the outcome(that Job will leave God or not) was undefined and it doesn't exist yet and that was his confidence to believe he had a shot at winning... Ah ah, do you see? Even the devil knows that a future account that God himself has not declared or permitted to happen does not exist.

Here is another when the Prophet Samuel seem to have an account of the future for Saul.
1 Sam 10:1-7:
"Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance? When thou art departed from me today, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son? Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Beth — el, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine: and they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands. After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp , before them; and they shall prophesy : and the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee."
My Brother, is this not an account of what is yet to exist?[/b]

You still don't understand. Prophecy is not only "foretelling", it is also " forthtelling".
A prophet can Declare an account to happen in the future by the unction of the Holy spirit with a throne in heaven that backs him up. Such account will happen with no piece missing.
1. The Prophet by the Holy spirit declared such account to happen as a sign to Saul... OR God himself declares such an account to happen.
Either ways, it is inevitable that such must be "Declared" and will require God's permission for it to occur.
Now, do you now see the reason *Prophecies are not wished but fought into manifestation*?

I understand your point but your conclusion is wrong.

That we don't want to believe something does not mean it is not true. This is your opinion and it's not the Word of God, so I'm unbothered.

God already knows what Lucifer would do even before he was created.

Then it's God fault for bringing him to life. Also, if we go with this mentality then there is that kind of develish darkness in God or else, where did Lucifer see his own?
God forbid! The scripture says .... "his works are PERFECT"....

However, Lucifer by his own will and volition chose and implemented his rebellion against God.
Lucifer was not guilty until he acted out his iniquity and rebellion.

According to you, he will act it out, it's just a matter of time.

He could have lived in obedience to God and that exactly would have been the account of God that Lucifer would live a righteous and selfless life for Jehovah.

Stop shadowboxing, he couldn't... According to you, his account in future times does not capture him "living in obedience", so no need to eat your cake and still ask for it.

Blabbermouth:
We have the bible na. Just quote scriptures that directly or indirectly(it's allowed as long as we don't move out of context) express what Makes God to be God.
If we come from personal opinion standpoint, we surely cannot avoid certain differences in opinion.
So go ahead sir!

Emusan sir, please go ahead.

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
one like son of man .... ....
Does the "like" mean anything?
Or did the passage just say 'a man (human) was given ... ...?

Note also that he is WORSHIPED.

He looks "like" a son of man. Deductively, i'm saying; He is most likely A MAN!
See this.....
Book of Daniel
He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."
The observer said the fourth looked like an "angel"... Maybe I should then ask you, was he(who they saw) an Angel or Not?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I still see nowhere where you've shown a scripture that shows that Jesus was Divinity become Humanity .

Maximus69:
Please kindly quote the word "myself" in that Bible book!

Emusan is deceiving himself because the one speaking said from verse 22 "The Lord produce me in the beginning of his works" and throughout that book this person kept referring to someone else NOT himself!

Where Emusan dribbled you is omitting verses 30-31 where the speaker clearly stated that he was beside his Creator working as a craftman or someone rendering service as an hired labourer!

And he concluded by saying out of all what he worked out with his director he loved humans the most!

Mee I'm not with Emusan nor am I with you. More like an observer making commentary and learning also.

Maximus69:
Continue deceiving yourself!

Emusan ain't deceiving himself here, He brought it out of the horses' mouth.

I agree that all what Michael was saying was about Jehovah been the one issuing the orders but please Sir, why do you omit verse 30-31 which reads

[30]then i was beside him as a workman,i was the one he is specially fund of, i rejoice before him all the time [31]I rejoice over his habitable earth and what i loved most (out of the works we did together) were humans"

God said - "MYSELF".... Does this verse 30-31 negate every of the verses he quoted?

So who was beside who as a craftman? John 1:1-5

Hmmm.... Sir Emusan, What say ye?

Maximus69:
Well it's simple, God began his creative works with just one creature who spoke in the Bible book of Proverbs 8:22-30, there we got to know that when God was saying "let there be" {Genesis 1:3}he was actually issuing orders to this first creature who is carrying out all the works as a master craftman.

Apart from God himself all other heavenly beings were his sons (angels) {Job 38:7} so the first born of all these heavenly creatures said God produced me first {Proverbs 8:22} he is the same person who said "out of all the things God used me to create, i love humans most" {Proverbs 8:31} so when the Bible said God will speak to one of his heavenly creatures "sit at my right hand until i make your enemies a stool for your feet" {Psalms 110:1} we concluded that it couldn't have been any other creature but Michael the one standing for God's people amongst mankind! Daniel 12:1
God's word referred to him as Prince {Isaiah 9:6} and he's the one who will lead God's people during final battle between all the Force of God against Satan and his demons!
Before then this angel has been representing God in leading God's people during turbulent times {Exodus 13:21 compare with Exodus 14:19} so Michael has been representing his God and Father before coming in human form! John 20:17

God bless you!

In both our pure and undiluted state of mind, we both know there is nothing ANGELIC about any of these.

Emusan:
I wonder how you'll read Proverbs 8:22-30 and still spew this thrash, it's evident you never take your time to read it on your own because if you do, you would have seen how you're calling God a liar.

Like I do say, if you people know the implication of using Prov 8 to proof another being doing the work of creation on behalf of God, you won't rather try it.

Prov 8 explicitly stated that it was YAHWEH who is actually performing the act not ANOTHER BEING. Just as other OT writers also confirmed it.

26 While as yet he (Yahweh) had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he (Yahweh) prepared the heavens, I was there: when he (Yahweh) set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he (Yahweh) established the clouds above: when he (Yahweh) strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he (Yahweh) gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he (Yahweh) appointed the foundations of the earth:

No wonder Isaiah testifies that Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF;"

But JWs are calling God a liar when it was boldly written in the scripture that it's God who did it by Himself.

Even when God questioning Job about his dark knowledge of creation, the questions were "when I" not when I asked "someone else"

Job 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

Maximus69, what say ye?

sagenaija:
Show us in that Daniel passage where it points to a man becoming divine by God's action.

My statement was a deduction not a stance/doctrine.
He saw:
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed" (Daniel 7:13–14).
Sagenaija, Daniel saw a Man(human) being given glory, authority and sovereign power by God and Everyone worshipped him (Divine).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
See us rushing to NT trying to claim "Son of Man" is title, what's this thread's business with NT?
There were many cases where they used "son of man" in OT and it means "a man" or one who had the appearance of "a man".

advocatejare:
Wow, so you're a Christian.

Your answer: Christ who appeared like the son of Man and was given authority when he was with God in heaven, later came to the world to be born of a Virgin Mary to set into motion, the process of establishing his everlasting kingdom on earth.

Respectfully speaking sir, Visions and prophecies don't work that way.
Daniel saw a figure (representing 4 governments&kingdom) and He saw them being crushed by a stone/mountain cut without hands and the figure was destroyed. Has it happened then? Definitely not!
Alexander of (kingdom 3), Medes and Perses(kingdom 2) and co. Were still fulfilling their part many years after Daniel had died.
That is to say, the giving of the authority part has not yet happened then.... It was just a vision not a current time event.
Therefore, this scripture does not in any way satisfy our quest.

Emusan:
So, how will you understand the question you yourself asked? If you don't know what makes God to be God.

We have the bible na. Just quote scriptures that directly or indirectly(it's allowed as long as we don't move out of context) express what Makes God to be God.
If we come from personal opinion standpoint, we surely cannot avoid certain differences in opinion.
So go ahead sir!

Dtruthspeaker:
Your Word is Power! Remember, power in the tongue.

what I actually mean is - "Is my word a different person from me?"
Are we 2 persons? Me and Word.

Maximus69:
You can never find such in the old Testament!

Then, most people are using NT to support fallacies.
Someone will tell you 1John5:7 has some part cunningly blotted out (like Emusan) and many JW will also drop source trying to claim that it was cunningly added.
C'mon here, this Jesus we are talking about is the epicentre of many prophecies in OT. Moses, Isaiah,Joel,Zechariah, Daniel, David and many had a revelation concerning the person of Jesus.
If JW are right, Go right there and let's see if you are consistent with God's word.
If Trinitarians are right, Go there and let's see if they are consistent with God's word.
See everybody forcing meanings inside Genesis1. Is Genesis1 the only book in OT?

Maximus69:
Well it's simple, God began his creative works with just one creature who spoke in the Bible book of Proverbs 8:22-30, there we got to know that when God was saying "let there be" {Genesis 1:3}he was actually issuing orders to this first creature who is carrying out all the works as a master craftman.[/b]

Let's not force meaning and personal conclusions into the scripture. He said "let there be", which scripture shows he was issuing orders to some first-born creature?

Apart from God himself all other heavenly beings were his sons (angels) {Job 38:7} so the first born of all these heavenly creatures said God produced me first {Proverbs 8:22} he is the same person who said "out of all the things God used me to create, i love humans most" {Proverbs 8:31} so when the Bible said God will speak to one of his heavenly creatures "sit at my right hand until i make your enemies a stool for your feet" {Psalms 110:1} we concluded that it couldn't have been any other creature but Michael the one standing for God's people amongst mankind! Daniel 12:1[/b]
The part Psalm110:1 is a prophetic something, it didn't/hasn't happened literally at David's time...
[quote]God's word referred to him as Prince {Isaiah 9:6} and he's the one who will lead God's people during final battle between all the Force of God against Satan and his demons!

A supreme commander is not synonymous to a king.

Before then this angel has been representing God in leading God's people during turbulent times {Exodus 13:21 compare with Exodus 14:19} so Michael has been representing his God and Father before coming in human form! John 20:17
God bless you!

Hmmmm...

MuttleyLaff:
"The Word became a human being and, full of grace and truth, lived among us.
We saw his glory, the glory which he received as the Father's only Son."
(i.e. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.)
- John 1:14

Yahusha Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ is God incarnated

Why is everyone not sticking to rules?
Sir, not the NT but the Old testament only!

Emusan:
Before I continue with this, I'll simply ask you this so that we can have a base to start.

1. To you, what makes God to be God? (just list, no explanation is required)

Ni bó ni kí a ti bèrè?
Me I don't know much ooo, all I need is a proof of Jesus being Divine becoming Human with the old testament only.

MuttleyLaff:
YES, Blabbermouth , my word is a person because I am a person of my word
Now you answer this Blabbermouth:
Are you a person of your word?[/size]

You still gave me your former answer in a different grammatical expression. When I asked "Is your word a person?", I meant " is your word a person and you yourself a person. Are you two persons? "
Yes Sir, I am a person of my word. Howbeit my word is not a separate person from me.

Maximus69:
So why the waste of time in preaching after God has predestined those who will hear and those who will not hear?
Isn't it boring just keeping people in pains all these years instead of just taking those that will listen before hand and throwing the rest in wherever he feels?

This one sef dey...

I write to you not because you know not the truth but because you know the truth and in it is no lie. I engage you sir, not as one who is without the holyghost but as one who has the spirit of Christ in him. There was one very shocking thing I sensed from the context of your reply to me and it very much answered why we will at many cases interprete the scriptures differently.

You believe "God is Good and Also Evil(just like the Devil)". You believe " God is Light and also darkness(the devil's kind)". If we Go on and on, that would mean "God is holy and also Unholy". Also, " God is righteous and Unrighteous " still. You should remember that all unrighteousness is sin here through. This is the lens in which you read the scripture and thereof interprete from it.

You penned Isaiah 45:7 I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YAHWEH do all these things

Then you interpreted it without essence but just letters as:
"Here again, it says God creates both all the good and evil(I believe you mean the same Evil we say the Devil is), light and darkness(here again, the same darkness we associate with the devil)."

I should at this point let the word of God do more of the talking:

1John 1:5 "....God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If we interpreted this with letters and not essence, then Isaiah 45:7 contradicts 1John1:5. Go read that short epistle of first John and see John by the unction of the spirit painting the Devil as the Father of darkness and God Almighty as the father of Light. Is the Holy spirit now a liar? God forbid! What then is this?

It's the differences in our perception of what " light" is and what "darkness" is. Just like Heat and Cold, cold is not in its purest essence different from heat, no! Cold is Heat at <0°C (this is subjective though). So darkness is the same phenomenon you get when you get to a particular spectrum in light. In it's purest form, darkness is light still.

Also, did you notice that Jesus down to his disciples never at any point used "Unjust" , "Evil", " Dark" and the likes for God? What shall we say then, the OT God is different from the NT God? God forbid!

Hebrews 1:1-2 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophet

2. Hath in these LAST DAYS spoken unto us by His Son........"

In the Old testament, God is speaking to humans through human vices, thus, God would condescend to your realm and speak to you as though He sees things like a man.

That was why Joshua would say "Sun stand still!"... We both know sun literally has been standing still so is the Bible now a story book? No! It was recorded that from an human perspective that " the sun stood still " ... Should God then bring Joshua into the most holy place and start teaching him astronomy? There are many cases I could point out from the old testament that confirms what I am saying to be true. This is what many atheist do not know and I am ever grateful that Sir. JesusJnr2020 did perfect justice to that recently.

When Christ came (C'mon here, you yourself called him "God-Incarnated"wink he wasn't speaking anymore as one from human reality, no, as the gap between God and man has been closed by Christ, so Jesus directly expressed heavenly realities on earth. Nowhere did he call himself or call God " Evil"(that version that is in similitude with the Devil's). Nowhere did he call himself or call God "Dark"... Neither did his followers.

Now Sir, let's see what Evil is, Let's see what Darkness means from a human perspective:

Evil is synonymous to " immoral" (oxford dictionary)

To kill a human being is evil

To steal from a neighbor is evil

To take children and women as slaves is evil

To have sex with a woman who is not your wife is evil....

Do you know or have you forgotten that all these same things are also Good?

The same God that told the Israelites "Thou shall not kill"... In the same book commanded the same Israelites to kill/stone anyone that practice witchcraft? What shall we say then, since killing is evil, is killing a witch evil? Ha ha, you see?

That same sex with another man's wife that is evil becomes good when the man dies and the woman gets married to you.. What shall we say, that you committed adultery? God forbid!

Evil is not a new concept, darkness is not a new concept. Cold is no different from Hot, it is not a new concept.

What shall we now say, that God has no knowledge of how to kill(since " killing " is evil? Ha ha, you see? Is killing not evil(to humans), is killing not also Judgement(to God)?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also, don't mistake the Hebrew word " Ra'ah" which means "calamity" for "Rasha" which means "moral wickedness" (that evil associated with Satan).
The word used in Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations3:38 and the rest is "Ra'ah" which is "Calamity" NOT "Rasha" which is "moral wickedness". You can check Hebrew documents or use ESV. ESV uses " Calamity" not "Evil"!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That Evil you speak of(Rasha) is not some new reality, it's a phenomenon under the same "Evil"(Ra'ah) which in all purity is still Good. Now, that might sound puzzling, but it's simple.

If God tells you to "Kill that woman!" and you killed her, to a human that is evil, but to God, that evil is Good because he willed/commanded it and you OBEYED!(Ra'ah)

If you "Killed that woman" outside God's will, whether it looked Good to every other humans or not, to God, it is that EVIL HE CALLS EVIL!(Rasha)

Let the Word of God speak again:

The first time, Moses was instructed to "strike the rock", he struck it and water Gushed forth, to God it is Good and to the Israelites also, it is Good.

The second time, he wasn't instructed to strike but he struck anyways, still, water gushed forth and they drank. To the Israelites, it is " Good " but to God, it was not!

Do you notice that Adam didn't even know what "Good" is?

Did you notice that there wasn't a separate fruit for knowledge of evil and good? We only have the "tree of knowledge of Good&Evil". Now compare this with realizing that there was no Tree of Life&Death and also no Tree of Death, we only had the Tree of Life. Ha ha, you see?
The question is - How did Adam now die?

DrLiveLogic:
..........

Summary: Your position leaves many gaps, loopholes and contradictions as expected because you've not correctly defined god's original state of existence and still think in normal human terms.

Clamped.

Supreme145:
.....
Pls I need your comments and advice

Follow ilegendd's thread ( I mean read many of those he has posted) and with this your "Suceed Legally at all cost" mentality, you should be a stable millionaire this time next year.

MuttleyLaff, DrLiveLogic, ShadeYinka and co.
Simplified Version and contrast between My view and Yours
The technical difference between my view and yours using God and Lucifer's case study is:

Your view: The account of Lucifer's fall existed before Lucifer's existence ..God foreknew (through that existing account) that Lucifer will fall however God did not stop him from misbehaving.

My view: The account of Lucifer's fall did not exist before Lucifer, since Lucifer the writer is yet to exist... There was no account to foreknow!

When Lucifer was created, he by his own actions instantaneously write his account. By freewill, he thought in his mind " I will be like the most high".... It was at this instant the "account of his fall" became existent.

I believe I simplified my view completely so I don't want anyone to get it twisted.

I'm sure you didn't go through this before, please read it;

Everyone is thinking too far because of the unbias explanation of Isaiah 46:10 , but we are not there still. Before we proceed, let me digress and establish something very important about Isaiah 46:10. Do you know that man can do something similar to What God does in Isaiah 46:10? Yeah, even the angels can do it, in fact, any being with that thing called free will and an active force can do such, it's part of the free will package. Howbeit, in an infinitely smaller scale to God's own.
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Check this out...

Do this simple practical...

Look at the time now (it's about 2:10pm), now tell someone in the room that the following would have happened about 2:15pm

1. Your phone will be switched off

2. You will be in the other room

3. You won't be putting on any shirt


Tell the person to check the time and confirm that everything happened 5 minute later just as you said 5 minute ago.

(While the person is doing the countdown, switch off your phone, off your shirt and move to another room)

So, by 2:15pm, everything should be just as you said 5 minutes ago.

What did you just do?
Is that you knowing the future?
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No! Voila, you just declared what will happen in 2:15pm i.e. The End [as long as this exercise is concerned] from 2:10pm I.e. The beginning (as long as this exercise is concerned).

Now, let's understand each other.

shadeyinka:
I am honestly trying to understand you but sometimes your definitions are out of league and thus misunderstandings set in.

It turns out you only read my posts in which I quoted you specifically, there were many others I posted without mentioning anybody, you can find them in page 8. I think that's why you still misunderstand me.

Now you say:
"I'm saying Whatever God has not declared does not Exist!"

Does "whatever" include these examples
1. A man raped a girl and gave her HIV (note the past tense)
a. Is the rape episode inclusive of the "whatever does exist or not"?

Until the man performed the " rape-action", the account of the "rape-action" does not exist.

b. Is the reality of HIV infection of the girl inclusive of the "whatever does exist or not"?

Things don't exist until they are called into existence. God never said of Satan - " I am punishing you for I know you will one day conceive it in your heart" , Rather He said - "For you HAVE said in your heart"...
Until Satan " said in his heart", the "account of the fall" does not exist.

2. If these episode in 1 exist, has God foreseen both the rape and the HIV infection (beforehand)?

"Foresee" is us using Human language to try to accomodate God's realm&reality. Until the "rape" happened, it didn't exist (using Human standpoint). Until the man conceived it in his heart to "rape the girl", the account of the rape didn't exist (using God who judges the heart standpoint). So there is nothing to foresee.
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Let me simplify this for you;
The technical difference between my view and yours using God and Lucifer's case study is:
Your view: The account of Lucifer's fall existed before Lucifer's existence ..God foreknew (through that existing account) that Lucifer will fall however God did not stop him
from misbehaving.
My view: The account of Lucifer's fall did not exist before Lucifer, since Lucifer the writer is yet to exist... There was no account to foreknow!
When Lucifer was created, he by his own actions instantaneously write his account. By freewill, he thought in his mind " I will be like the most high".... It was at this instant the "account of his fall" became existent.
I believe I simplified this completely.

MuttleyLaff:
“Ha! What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth?
Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!”
- Luke 4:34

“And they cried out, saying,
“What business do we have with each other, Son of God?
Have You come here to torment us before the time?
They began screaming at Him,
“Why are you interfering with us, Son of God?
Have you come here to torture us before God’s appointed time?””
- Matthew 8:29

"Then death and Hades (i.e. Hell/Sheol/Gehenna) were thrown into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is the second death."
- Revelation 20:14

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death."
- Revelation 2:11

FAO Blabbermouth Mr No future, Mr No Hell

What happens to anyone that tries to usurp a king but fails woefully?
Does the king organize a banquet for him? No!
Satan does not need a soothsayer to tell him he will be tormented forever and ever.
His allies (those who are the subject of your highlight) do not need a soothsayer to tell them they will be tormented.
That is what God has declared for usurpers liked Satan and his angels and it shall come to pass.
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Please sir, I repeat, whatever God declares will 100% happen.
Humans and Angels also declare or orchestrate (I established that before with a very practical example) and that is the confidence of our freewill.
The fallen angels falling from grace is as a result's of the angels' own orchestration.
The torment was God's declaration and it served as a punishment for them.
I hope you perfectly understand me now.
Also, it's like you've mistaken me for someone else. Where did I say "No hell"?

shadeyinka:
No I do not think I still understand you because you believe that God declares EVERYTHING to be!

To me, that is a violation of God's character. He is a just God.

That's the part you don't fully comprehend yet.
Nowhere did I say God declared EVERYTHING to be!
I'm saying Whatever God has not declared does not Exist!
We both No that God has not declared Hell for anyone, so that "Otem will go to hell" is a nonexistent account.
That's why I'm saying God does not foresee where I will end, because my end does not exist!

advocatejare:
Okay. I'll but you have to tell me your religion first. What do you believe in

Christian.
I believe in Christ.
Whenever I create threads like this, the challenge or question is meant to open me to more truth... Also, for everyone(including me) to increase in the knowledge of God far more than we know before.

Emusan:
I quoted 1 John 1:1-2 for you where Jesus Christ was said to be ETERNAL

but you jumped to ask me another question.

Deal with 1 John first.



The Son said to be ETERNAL in that verse.

Deal with that first before we move to another!

I'm not disputing the eternity... I'm saying eternal in what state? As a person?

advocatejare:
Guy, if you want to be blind to the, "like the " then I will stop responding to you.


You mentioned angels, mention where angels were also given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed" (Daniel 7:13–14).


If you can mention any angel given such authorities, then that means you have a point, if not then you're a nuisance

Daniel saw Christ as a man or human that became Divine by God's own unction. That's what I'm trying to show you.
Like I said, we want "From Divinity to humanity"... You know that song that says " you came from heaven to earth, to show the way........"
Exactly! That's what I want you to prove with the old testament.

ShadeYinka, should I do a recap of everything we've both discussed from page1 to page11?

advocatejare:
Having the appearance of Man but he was with the ancient of days (divine ) who made man in his image

A son of man is a man. A son of God is a God.
Even the angels were with the Ancient of days, does that make them divine (God)?