₦airaland Forum

eliok:
Keyword number two

Children's book on dinosaur

Super easy. But don't ask me what to write (laughs)

What I do is 15 minutes meditation on what story to craft and bingo!

Eliok my man. Concerning children's book, do you add a lot of illustrations (pictures) to it? Or do you just write some short stories without any pictures at all?

MuttleyLaff:
I will explain "how" and affirmative, I do 10000% believe in "Sheol" as you soon would see confirmed in my considerable long winded explanation

Hell or better put, Hades, actually is, a Greek concept, and the Jews, in reality have no concept of Hell or Hades, they have Sheol, alright, but as for the concept of Hell or Hades, this is a Greek one.

Now Blabbermouth, it will interest you to appreciate, that, Sheol is more of a proper and real biblical Israelite concept of where the dead are ''interned'' Sheol in an oversimplified or elementary manner can be grave and/or has been referred to as grave

Grave aka tomb, crypts, ossuaries, sepulchre sites, cemetery, catacombs, mausoleum et cetera are merely places of deposit for a corpse. So Blabbermouth, Sheol is the realm of where the dead or departed souls are confined, sent down into, held et cetera.

Contrary to popular belief, souls, do not linger in the air. Souls, do not stay in limbo. Souls, do not hang about. Souls, do not make revisits et cetera

Blabbermouth, real magic happens when you understand the "how" So this is "how" the real magic happened/happens. Over here, we accept Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of the whole wide world, believe in Him as the Son of God, by default become automatically born-again (i.e. born from high) and because of the confession with mouth, that “Jesus is Lord,” and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, we are saved by His grace, but here is the thing, until Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ in the New Testament astonishing interjection, Sheol, in general, to the Jews, without necessarily distinguishing between righteous or unrighteous souls, has been the realm of the dead or abode of the dead. Period.

We have verses in OT (e.g. Psalm 9:17 etcetera) suggesting that the wicked go to Sheol but it was, Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ in the New Testament that brought things into perspective when He shared the hyperbolic illustration of Sheol with the story of the Rich Man being elsewhere and Abraham with the Poor Man being on a different side.

Remember Blabbermouth, just like because you're telling a joke, it doesn't necessarily mean, the joke is devoid of some element of truth and reality, so is the case with the parable of the rich man and poor man hyperbolic illustration, given by Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ

Digging in deeper into this. Sheol (i.e. the original Hebrew concept of afterlife) now, has gray lines shared with Gehenna (i.e. the refuse dump in Jerusalem hyperbolically referred to, by Jesus in Matthew 5:29 Matthew 18:9 and Mark 9:47) and Hell (i.e. a Greek mythology and Greek concept of afterlife) which arent by most, really understood.

The etymology of afterlife from a Jewish concept (i.e. Sheol, with 2 sections) has changed over time and Sheol, since, has being interchangeably replaced with Gehenna and Hell/Hades

Reiterating, Hell which has become synonymous with Hades, is neither Hebrew or Greek in origin. Sheol is, what you'll find in the original Hebrew text for any word for Hell. In other places, Hades or Hell was the Greek substitution for the part of Sheol where the Rich man is, from the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

As a matter of fact, Hell, actually finds it roots in the classic Greek mythology, Hades, where Hades interestingly and actually, was the ancient Greek god of the underworld's name. This god's name (i.e. Hades) later turned to mean the place or abode of the dead, which actually is exactly what Sheol is, what is signifies or represents.

If we are to talk about Gehenna, well it is a valley, a valley in Jerusalem, used as a dumping refuse site and so was used by Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ to depict the Lake of fire (i.e. it is a place of destruction, as in, via incineration, a place for destroying things)

As I have earlier mentioned, where Gehenna was the incinerating refuse dump in Jerusalem, Hades however, historically and originally is the name of a Greek god until it got turned to meaning the place or abode of the dead. It later got interchanged with Hell, which is from a German word root.

It was bible translators who were substituting the original Hebrew word Sheol (i.e. the part where the dead of the Rich man sort are), with Greek counterparts Hades/Hell that made the legacy word(s), Hades/Hell, stick with us today

Death, is not a physical person but it will cease to exist because it will be destroyed when figuratively thrown into a physical lake of fire

Blabbermouth, on a side note, this might interest you, do you know that in Yoruba spirituality, there is the absence of a concept of sin and that doubly interesting, in same Yoruba spirituality, there is the absence eternal damnation or any kind of judgement after the end of the world. Yoruba spirituality happens to be Hell/Hades/Lake of Fire agnostic

I hope, Blabbermouth, you didn't find my the "how" explanation long winded, just as I did advanced warn

Sweet!

Maximus69:
The bolded is inaccurate knowledge!

Salvation is not certain until Satan is no more!

The first century Christian congregation was filled with Born Again Christians, only few of them are not anointed by the spirit that's why Paul was talking about being saved always!

From Abel till John the baptist has their names already written in the list of those righteos to be resurrected back to life on earth. The thief that was executed beside Jesus will also gain a resurrection back to life here on earth, so he's not saved. All these people aren't born again so their own Salvation is still on hold until after Christ's 1,000 years reign when Satan is destroyed completely!

I Will like to see bible verses to see its consistency with the word of God.

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s3/images/FacePalmSmh.gif[/img]
Of course, Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Joshua et cetera are saved. The above scripture references provides clear proof of this. They each and all are saved on the strength and sacrifice of what God, did, in the person of Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ, when He laid down His life for us all so that we can live, wrestled the power of death off from Satan and got hold of keys of hell and of death. The only means through how we obtained deliverance, salvation redemption and reconciliation with Abba YHWH, God.

We all believe they are saved. I was more concerned about the "how"... Over here, we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, Believe in the Son of God, get born-again and we are saved by His grace.

The prophets and patriarchs, formerly in Abraham’s bosom, now, along with the thief on the right hand side of Yahshua, are all in paradise[/size]

You believe in "Sheol"?

Maximus69:
NO!

The likes of Moses, Abraham, Joshua, Isaiah, Elijah, Enoch and the rest.... Seeing that they were before Christ paid the price for Sin and brought Salvation. Also, we do have a trusted account of Jesus saying;
"Except a man be born of the spirit and of water, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven"
Are they (Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Joshua etc) saved? If so, how were they saved?

MuttleyLaff:
"And there is salvation in no other,
for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."
(i.e. No one else can save us. Indeed, we can be saved only by the power of the one named Jesus and not by any other person."
- Acts 4:12
So the answer to your easy, direct, simple, harmless, innocent and straightforward question is capital NO, meaning no one can get saved without Ha Mashiach aka Christ

The likes of Moses, Abraham, Joshua, Isaiah, Elijah, Enoch and the rest.... Seeing that they were before Christ paid the price for Sin and brought Salvation. Also, we do have a trusted account of Jesus saying;
"Except a man be born of the spirit and of water, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven"
Are they (Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Joshua etc) saved? If so, how were they saved?

MuttleyLaff:
Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ, purposely came for such a moment like that (i.e. Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34, but only, if you relearn, how to correctly interpret them verses of the seven last words of a Man on the cross, going the way of the flesh

I already knew that was flesh, your carnal man speaking and not your spirit man

Of course, seriously, I know and believe God Almighty became sin. Yeah! Yup, for such was said of the Person who died on the cross. That Person was the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world, but who circa 4000 years ago, took away the sins of the world! (i.e. Revelation 13:8 and John 1:29)

I hinted and nudged you that there's a method in all the madness, didnt I

I don't want to pull this string farther. It will be better for me to put aside our differences or else a point may come where you will see me as an opposer.
He is the son of God, He died for our sins and through Him we are saved. If we both believe this, then cool.
Here is a question for you and any interested person;
Can anyone get saved without Christ?

MuttleyLaff:
I wonder why the scripture Isaiah 9:6, will have the Baby called "... Mighty God, Everlasting Father, ..." , if the Baby wasn't already "... Mighty God, Everlasting Father, ..." that the scripture Isaiah 9:6, instructs that Baby will be called. Hmm?

Maybe we should sue Isaiah for using the word "WILL".

££££
Sometimes, I get the feeling that you think the grey matter (i.e. intelligence) inside your head is placed there, just to serve as an ornament, to decorate the inside of lllyour head with. Why you prefer to waste away that powerfully built processing functional gift of God, He blessed you with and subject it to self inflicted underutilization beats me. Kilode?

All you're best at doing is blabbering blabbermouth upandan the forum. No offence intended, and so none should be taken

Sweetest heart, It's no issue if you abuse me.

Maximus69:
You're right but a man is not called by the title "KING" until he is enthroned!

So Jesus was never at any point in time being:-

© Son ~ make Child given to humans!
© Rulership ~ amongst humans!
© Wonderful Counselor ~ on planet earth!
© Mighty God ~ on planet earth!
© Everlasting Father ~ of any race!
© Prince of Peace ~ in any City!

He will be called by all these titles after his human experience on planet earth!

Yeah, I know we are all not going to spend our eternity in "Heaven".... It's going to be the " new earth"...
That doesn't take anything away though, Christ is whatever He is called.

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s5/images/MuttleyLaffDrinkRollEye.gif[/img]
You must be a closet clown or court jester
Were you expecting an old born baby with sprouted 32 teeth ni?

God followed all due processes and fulfilled all righteousness, in that way, of coming through the door and so legally entering, as a new born baby

If that was God Almighty on the cross, if I were Angel Michael (whether I was ordered to or not), I will break the bones of every one after the crucification... I speak as a man.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Seriously now, do you believe God Almighty became sin? For such was said of the person who died on the cross.

MuttleyLaff:
This no nondescript, run of the mill ordinary and natural human child

[img]https://s1/images/stirringMuttleylaff.gif[/img]
Have you a problem with this?

It actually is the other way round. It isn't "human become divine" but instead its "divinity/divine become humanity/humane"
It is for this very reason because of doubters, scoffers, mockers, detractors, belittlers, slanderers et cetera that Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ used the profound title "Son of man" as a means of making a statement of fact

LMAO. Shadowboxing at its best. The scripture you gave did not claim so, don't force preconceived notion into a scripture.

Maximus69:
Isaiah didn't say "the child will become" but "he will be called"

What difference does it make?
We call God "God" because he is "God".
We call a king " king" because he is/has become a king
Summary: You cannot be called what you are not.

MuttleyLaff:
[size=12pt]"For a Child is born to us, a Son is given to us.

A child. A human child i.e. Baby Jesus.

The government will rest on His shoulders. And He will be called:
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace"
- Isaiah 9:6

Baby Jesus WILL become Wonderful counselor, Mighty God......... That's a human become divine.

MuttleyLaff:
I'll pause to give you time to go over the bible references but when I typed that I also would pleased, if you would respond to all my comments to your given 10 answers and that you provide your answers to the two above outstanding unanswered questions from the 10+2 questions, I had edited the questions to look as below. So please have another go and as usual, dont hold back and dont leave any stone unturned for these three questions. Thank you

I did check those verses. Perhaps you should help me highlight anywhere of these may be found:
1. Where The Holy spirit became God the Father
2. Where God Almighty became A son

Out of curiosity, what is your understanding of significance and take of the meaning of:
1/ "do not to eat of the TKGE because the day you do, you'll surely die"?

"By one man's disobedience did death reign through every man".... It is this kind of Death God said they will die when they eat of the tree.
Let's also know that the account here were shown to Moses, so we had better go for essence than get lost in the garnishes.

2/ What is the TKGE itself and all about?

N/A.

3/ What in the original text does the sense of "...you'll surely die" convey or mean?

"By one man's disobedience did death reign through every man"- it's the same death God was referring to.

I would adress your replies to the 10 scored questions after you've finished going over the bible references.

May I warn you that before you make hasty replies to the three above questions, please bear in mind that scripture wasn't originally written in English language, English expression, English idioms and/or English parlances. Just a friendly and brotherly cautionary warning and advice, before you go slip on a banana peel, as I've noticed you done, at your first attempt before the edit

Slip on a banana peel? I hope I do.
I asked you some questions... Answer them as you reply me.
Thank you.

MuttleyLaff:

---

---

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=>(check) ✓ 0/10
You are marked down zero, for refusing to say who comprise the Godhead, called/addressed/featured in Genesis 1:27, as Elohim

Corrections sir.

=>(check) ✓ 0/10
You are marked down zero, for going off tangent and for being evasive, all in the quest to prevent self-revelation & self-discovery take its course.

1/ Concerning "At what point did God, the Spirit, become God the Father? ..." what is your impression of Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18, Matthew 4:3, John 1:34, John 1:49, John 20:31, Matthew 1:20 et cetera

2/ Concerning "...what point did the Word, (i.e. Logos) become the Son?... " what is your impression of John 1:14, John 8:42 & John 16:28 (i.e. using the Greek word "exerchomai" meaning in English to proceed forth from, project to go or come out of) Philippians 2:6, Isaiah 9:6, Isaiah 40:3 et cetera

3/ Concerning "...and what point did the seven distinct expression of the God, the Spirit, become the Holy Spirit?" what is your impression of Isaiah 11:2, Revelation 1:4, Revelation 3:1, Revelation 4:5, Revelation 5:6, John 15:26, Joel 2:28 & Acts 2:17, Acts 1:4, Luke 24:49, John 14:26 et cetera

Checking the scriptures out...

=>(check) ✓ 20/10
You are marked 20 out of 10, scoring full and above the score because of your honesty and for as a matter of fact directly just answering the question. Thank you and I hope you continue in this form

Alright sir.

=>(check) ✓ 5/10
I actually scored you zero here because answering the question has nothing to do with what you believe I want to hear or hear not, but I had a change of heart to be just and fair with you. You are the subject, not me. Its your honest, sincere and truthful answer that is of interest to me, and not whatever it is think, you believe I want to hear.

You scored half the score here because you left the other half of the question unanswered

Why didn't he reveal the "I AM THAT I AM" name to them? Is that the question?

=>(check) ✓ 20/10
I totally like how to gave a confident and emphatic NO answer there, hence why or how you overscored.

Alright.

=>(check) ✓ 0/10
Tsk, tsk, tsk, tsk. OK, I won't push you any further on this. I have all I need to know. Thank you for your honesty of not being aware of any problems like sin and the vacuum/vacancy sin caused necessitating God finding a lasting solution and replacement strategy

The desire to create human came before Lucifer's fall....

=>(check) ✓ 5/10
You scored half the full mark because you didnt mention the fundamental aim and purpose for creating A&E backed up with scripture like particularly Genesis 1:26, talking of "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness," and Genesis 1:27 that talked of "So God (i.e. Elohim/the Godhead) created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them"

Concerning Genesis 1:26, Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 5:1-2 what is your impression of Genesis 5:3?

Check it again! I said "Image of God". Checking your scriptures out.....

=>(check) ✓ 0/10

You were marked down because from the beginning there was madness in sight. The Aramaic/Hebrew used in Genesis 1:2 is "tohu" and it means and signifies chaos, madhouse, shambles, confusion et cetera.

Whose beginning? God's beginning? Your question was not direct, I wonder how you expect me to know that was what you meant.

Of course, if you are going to be honest, sincere and truthful to yourself, you will admit that the word "method" means, a particular procedure for accomplishing or approaching something, especially a systematic or established one, which exactly is what God is doing and has all along continue to be doing. It patiently following process, waited for 4000 years before fulfilling the proto evangelium promised in Genesis 3:15 to Eve

Alright?

=>(check) ✓ 5/10
Wehdone Sir but who asked you whether or not He didn't tell me/us that He did so, hmm? Just stick to parameters of the question, see how it cost you a full or even more than full score.

Concerning your impetuous and overhasty "He didn't tell you/us that He did so" addendum reply, what is your impression of Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6 et cetera?

Torrrr.... Checking out your scriptures...

=>(check) ✓ 8/10
You were marked two points down for not giving fact checking bible references, just as like how I did when asking the question

Your #3 & #4 were crossed out because there are beings and not Being. I didn't want to penalise you for not paying attention to how exactly the question was framed and you introducing out of scope elements

Torr.... Alright.

Do you see that answering the 10 easy, simple, direct, harmless, innocent straightforward questions did you no harm and weren't anything to be intimidated of, be afraid of, be hesitant/resistant to respond to, hmm?

Fear?! I've been wrong many times. One more is nothing, why should I be afraid?

Now you omitted answering these left over two questions though, which are:
1/ Did God not warn A&E about not eating the fruit from the TKGE?

He did.
Answer this: Why warn your child when you know he will end up eating it?

2/ Is that really not doing anything?

No.I could have forbid the serpent from ever communicating with them. Ain't that better? I could have had it such that the fruit will never be within their grasp.
There is a scripture that says of God - "That thou may be Justified when thou (God) art judged"
God?! Being Judged?! Woah! Please explain what the scripture meant.

I was going to turn on the heat, raise the temperature higher on you, but when going back to review a couple of your past interactions with shadeyinka, my eye caught, I think more than one time, at least 3 times apparently on one post page, you saying "I speak as a man", that was your saving grace, and how I backed down, lifted my foot off the throttle, loosened my steel clasped grip, stepped back and away and smh resignedly saying to myself "no wonder"

I am in no place to refer to My God anyhow, be it Jokingly, in a discussion, or an argument. Thus the "I speak as a man".... Raise the heat bro!

Now I really would like to engage you a little further on because I can see the numerous knowledge gaps in your theology. I also would please if you would respond to all my comments to your given 10 answers and that you provide your answers to the two above outstanding unanswered questions from the 10+2 questions.

Done.

Out of curiosity, what is your understanding of significance and take of the meaning "do not to eat of the TKGE because the day you do, you'll die"? Please dont hold back and dont leave any stone unturned for this one. Thank you

"The day" is the determining factor here. That same day, did they die physically? No! That same day, were they separated from God (spiritual death)? Yes!
There you have it.

DrLiveLogic:
Bravo!! @ the bolded, MuttleyLaff. That's top notch, top-secret, classified info you got there. Blabbermouth I wish you'd take a cue from the bolded. It'll save you a lot of mess in this subject you're handling. I'll go deeper into this in the purpose of creation and the origin of good and evil.

Livelogic, @the bolded was what I previously believed before. When you then ask (say, in a bible study) that "Why did God create Lucifer foreknowing He will fall?".... Everyone become as quiet and those attempting to answer try to stitch what they believe of God with God's foreknowledge.

I know you're scared to believe God could've known evil could happen and yet created the possibility but you need to know that if anything is POSSIBLE (emphasis on possible, meaning permitted by the laws of existence), good or evil, it must happen eventually in the span of existence. What matters though is that by divine power, good will ultimately overcome evil. So God will be justified in those that choose His ways.

Should we close our eyes? Where did Lucifer then see his own?
I don't assume something is right because well... I can't question it. I keep asking how a nonexistent Lucifer chose those things and every keep saying " Predestination is different from foreknowledge "... How? How? How? Is what I want to know. God used His foreknowledge power to know that Lucifer will fall... No problem. Who ordained Lucifer's fall? It doesn't make sense twisting things and saying a Nonexistent Lucifer ordained something for himself in time. Who wrote the future?
Men use the word " foreknowledge " because they are limited by time.

And I'm yet to understand the rationale behind you asking me to show from OT that Jesus is one with YHWH. I already did that with the Psalms 102 and there's some more but why the emphasis on OT, anyway. What you getting at?

Psalms 102? It's not a proof. What am I getting at? Nothing much, I want to see if something is true.

MuttleyLaff:
For DrLiveLogic and any interested interlocutor(s):

1/ Name who principally or primary are in the Godhead (i.e. Elohim) of Genesis 1:27

I don't force interpretations, no names were mentioned.

2/ At what point did God, the Spirit become God the Father, what point did the Word, (i.e. Logos) become the Son, and what point did the seven distinct expression of the God, the Spirit, become the Holy Spirit?

Kaboom! God has never been at a point incomplete that he would start adding modifications later. The holy spirit has always been God's spirit. God the spirit never became God the father.

3/ Is God resigned and/or limited to just Three Persons?

No. God is not limited.

4/ What is God's name? What is the implication of this name that God didnt reveal to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

"I AM THAT I AM" is the name I believe you want to hear.

5/ Is the answer given in #4a above really God's personal name?

No.

6/ What fundamental problems was God solving that necessitated the creation of mankind? (i.e. A&E and their progeny)

No problem in sight.

7/ Did God have an objective to achieve and purpose for creating A&E?

Many....
I. Intimacy
II. Express image of God
III. Dominion over the earth

8/ Would you agree that "Though this be madness, yet there is method in it?"

No madness in sight.

9/ Is it hard or impossible for God to project Himself out, so to simultaneously and/or concurrently exist on earth and Heaven?

It's not impossible. Howbeit, he didn't tell you/us that He did so.

10/ Give two examples of a Being that has demonstrated the ability and power to see into humans' heart, know their thoughts, tell what they're thinking, or what they desire. In other words, here is one from 1 Samuel 9:19 and 1 Samuel 10:19&26, so please give your two different examples please

Dem boku! 1. God 2. Jesus 3. Many guys with very active gifts of the spirits that i've encountered 4. Prophet (sometimes call seer)

MuttleyLaff:
Numbers 32:23b says:
"... sin against the Yahweh; be sure your sin will catch up with you"

Is it your conscience pricking you or what, hmm?

Conscience?! God forbid! My view depicts God as just, Loving and Perfect. What's the conscience there?? Believing a future exist is 1,000 problem to the WHO GOD IS of God. So bro, no conscience, it's me coming to realize that humans feel safe believing some fantasy future and destiny exist.
I've planted a seed though, you and Shade will one day exclaim in your mind and say "Ohhhh, this was what that Blabber guy was all on about."

You arent being honest to yourself my dear friend beloved dear brother because whether your answers are going to be satisfactory is neither here nor there. Also what I believe in and what you believe, doesnt prevent me from throwing investigative or probing questions at you that I expect you to, if you are not hiding anything, to honestly sincerely and truthfully answer

I guess you are afraid to face the reality of the answers you'll be giving to the 10 easy, simple, direct, harmless, innocent straightforward questions, so you rather stave them off than come face to face with the questions

Smiless....I will answer you then.

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s4/images/MuttleyLaffJeffBridges.gif[/img]

I didn't say "alright" because I was wrong though. Concerning the 10 questions you asked, my answers won't be satisfactory as I believe in certain things you don't and you believe in certain things I don't.

MuttleyLaff:
No one expects you to hide behind "God sees in mysterious ways"

God, by default, is Mysterious. Even in Yoruba cosmology and mythology, His essence and nature is beautifully captured, the best, in being identified and called "Eledumare" or "Olodumare", of which, the portmanteau Yoruba word, when loosely translated means, the Owner or Custodian of absolute energy and infinite mysteries, who has knowledge of all blessings, so God being Mysterious, and expecting human beings, His creation to "ask, seek to know, unravel mysteries" about Him, blessed us with the brain, which isn't an ornament to decorate the body with, but is this powerfully built processing functional gift, given for a purpose, reason and such a time as like this, other than sitting on our hands or folding the hands, resigning to "God saw it all ..."

We write our own scripts by living life, with our interactions, from making choices, from taking decisions et cetera. Also, the way you play the hand you are dealt, is how you write your own script.

Of course, unlike human beings, God being Omni-Know-Everything, Omni-Know-All, being Omni-See-All, Omni-Nothing-is-Hidden-From-Him et cetera

Please be fair and stop making unrighteous judgment(s) to cant back up

1/ Did God not warn A&E about not eating the fruit from the TKGE?
2/ Is that really not doing anything?

No, it best sums up, what an unappreciative person with a disturbing soul you are, laying accusations on God, making negative comments about Him and doing all that, without considering the fact and truth, you don't at all, have the entire low down and precise details of the whole matter. Instead of treading carefully you are throwing caution to the wind, taking swipes indiscriminately at God. I guess you have forgotten about how Job too was mouthing off before God cut him down to size with realities

Lucifer, being a product of creativity, had a right to exist. Creativity must be allowed to express itself. Lucifer would be what Lucifer would. The only thing that was holding Lucifer back from being the Lucifer, he turned out to become, was simply because God's presence or better still, God's Hand was off Lucifer. All along Lucifer was perfect in all his doings, but the minute God lifted His Hand and turned His back, injustice, unrighteousness and wrong was found in him as he stopped to meet God's standard (i.e. he sinned)

Now, my dear confused dot com beloved brother friend, the good news, is that the sin situation problem God foreknew about and is what exactly He was set out to resolve once and fully, not to be a problem with all its baggages anymore.

Alright sir.

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s3/images/FacePalmSmh.gif[/img]
Smh at above avalanche of confused dot com

I prefer not to hide behind "God sees in mysterious ways" and ask, seek to know, unravel mysteries than say "God saw it all, I don't know how we wrote our own script before our nonexistence but I know he saw it all, and in all, He didn't do anything, he set evil in motion when he created Lucifer, because he prefer to allow a whole lot of mess to happen than hinder his creativity"....
That best sums us all up, don't you think?

shadeyinka:
To every Foretelling, Gods the power simply relates that which is to be.

The one God wrote or the one you wrote before your existence?
Many Christians do not see (or chose not to see) that if God foretells, then there is an higher power orchestrating a higher declaration. I will pull this string now and you will see what I mean.

That Ishmael will be a wild beast of a man a blessing!!? You've completely misrepresented what God was saying.

Like you choose the kind of characters you wanted before existing. The same way I chose that I will be a peaceable boy.

It seems you don't understand the meaning of freewill: for if freewill can be altered then it's no more free. If I put a speed limiter on the car I gave my son (set to a maximum of 30km/he) do you think he still has the freedom to travel at 120km/HR even if he really want to?
Does it make sense If I gave him a commandments not to exceed 100km/hr?

Freewill is the ability of man to choose according to his conscience and volition to the limit of his potential.

Show me freewill in this!
Exodus 4:21
"when you go to return into Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in your hands: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go"
Because of God's orchestration, Exodus5:2 happened
"And Pharaoh said, who is the LORD, that I should Obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go"
Again!
Exodus 7:3
" And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt"
Because of God's orchestration (not Pharaoh's free will!) , Exodus7:13 happened
"And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said"
And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again.
Then it was capped up with this statement that God himself said
Exodus 9:16
"And in very deed for this cause have I raised you (Pharaoh) us, for to shew in you my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."
Eewo! Did you hear that?! Did you hear what God just said?
He claimed he made Pharaoh, raised him up so that He (God) can show the whole of Israel, Egypt and the world that He is very powerful. He was using Pharaoh!
Where is the freewill?
The Lord took Jeremiah to a potter's shop and showed him a potter using the clay to mould whatever he wills.
And God said to him "Can I just like the potter not use you (the clay) to mould what I want?"
Where is the perfect free will of the clay?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I once engaged an atheist and he was all over the place telling me how everything is material and nothing so spiritual. He kept claiming "free as a bird", " freewill" and "free free".... Alright, Alright, Alright! I said. If you are 100% free, I will give you a list of commandments and if you can by your own free will observe them for 10 days, then there is no " spirituality " and you are 100% free.
He was someone I know well, so I knew his weaknessess and soft spots. He didn't last 3days before he broke most of the commandments. He tried again and failed. He tried again and failed. Where is the freewill?!
What happened to him is the same reality everyone under the domain of death face
Romans 7:15,18,24
15.For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not: but what I hate to do (I.e don't want to do) , I do
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will(my will, my freewill!) is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
24. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
That scripture is what made me realize that freewill is very much dependent on the domain you operate in. It is not totally free o! If you are in the domain of death, you will continue to lament that you want (by your free will) to stop masturbation but you keep going back doing what is against your will.
Also, if you are in the domain of LIFE, your freewill is a slave to the will of God. That life is not totally yours o! Infact, everything is meant to bring glory to God, even your death!
Hahahahahahaha, Hallelujah!
The death of many believers has been declared to bring Glory to God, praise God!
Jesus' death was forthtold not foretold! Any other way, salvation would have been a coincidence.

It was a foretelling of what will be. The disciples will be hated of all people.

It's a no-brainer. There is no foretelling!

@bold
Your Forthtelling doctrine actually explains this. God compelled on of the disciples to betray Jesus

Forthtelling or foretelling, someone was doomed!
By forthtelling, the question will be "Why declare such for one of the apostles?"
By foretelling, "why did God not just decide not to create him?".... Even Christ attested that it would have been better if he was not created.

Zech 11:13:
"And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD."

You say the office of the betrayer had be Forthtold. Which mean that God decided that someone MUST betray Jesus and God had to look for that someone. It seem to me that God had to compel Satan to even enter into Judas

Luke 22:3:
"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscar´i-ot, being of the number of the twelve."

Don't forget that Jesus FORTHTOLD that it was Judas that will betray Him.
Matt 26:23:
"And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me."

Would you NOW agree that Judas was Chosen to fulfill this role according to your Forthtelling doctrine?

Let me drop more scriptures
Psalms 41:9
"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me"
Psalms109:8
"Let his days be few; and his office, let another take"
Now many believed all this to be prophecies of Judas' betrayal.
To the Foretellers, how did a nonexisting Judas chose (of all things to be chosen) to betray Jesus? Why didn't God stop him?
To forthtelling, why declare such an office seeing that one is doomed to fall?
Well you see, it's a mystery yet to be solved (100% I mean). The Foretellers take the weight from God by saying, He only foretold, he didn't forthtell. We both know it's weak and it doesn't solve anything.
However, I won't be surprised to see Judas in heaven (infact, I'm expecting him!).

And even then, when Judas knew he was compelled by the force of Forthtelling to execute the betrayal AND
Jesus refused to pray for Judas.

How is this then Judas's fault? (According to your Forthtelling doctrine)

Please explain this o!

Come and see how almost heartless this sounded (I speak as a man).
John17:12
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost...
Jesus then went on to say.....
" but the son of perdition that the scripture might be fulfilled! "
Did you hear that? Christ could have kept him! The word of God could have prevented it! Why didn't he?
Christ said he suffered (allowed) him to be lost that the scripture might be fulfilled! When scriptures are being fulfilled then it is an act of forthtelling.
1Peter3:18-19 could have happened to Judas and that would make everything perfect.

You did actually say that. Prophets can both forthtell and Foretell but God can only Forthtell.

What did I tell you the prophets are foretelling? Is it not what God has forthtold?
If God is to foretell, then he would be foretelling what a higher declarer/forthteller has forthtold (God forbid!).

John 21:18-19:
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me."

Using your Forthtelling theory, can you see that it was Jesus who DETERMINED the kind of death that Peter will die and not the world?

Did Jesus arrange the kind of death Peter will die?

That was foretelling what God has forthtold. Peter's death was for the glory of God.

Peter betraying Jesus couldn't have been Peters fault but Jesus (according to your Forthtelling doctrine).

Matt 26:34:
"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice."
Using your Forthtelling doctrine, can you explain this? (For it looked like the Devine forced Peter to deny Jesus three different times and not once or twice or four times?

The denial of Peter was one of the greatest lesson to the saints. Again, it was declared.

According to your Forthtelling doctrine, God specifically said that Hazael will
1. Cut open the belly of pregnant women
2. Smash babies bodies against the wall

Do you have Psalms137:8-9 in your bible? Check it out!
8. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth as thou hast served us.
Seeeeeeee thiiisssssss!
9. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth your little ones against the stones
That was Israel doing what you are condemning Hazael for. Who shall be say is evil in this case, God or Israel?
You seem to mistake God's punishment for Evil.

Who is responsible: Hazael or God for these evil?

No evil, just punishment! 1kings19:17.

Compare with the God that is humane even with animals
Exod 34:26:
"The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk."

Which God permitted this?
8. O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth as thou hast served us.
Seeeeeeee thiiisssssss!
9. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth your little ones against the stones
There is that loving, vanilla, pampering dimension of God.... That same entity can be scary when it comes to punishment and Judgement!

Have you also noted according to your theory that "God cursed Israel with bad kings?"

1 Sam 8:9,11:
"Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and show them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. … And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots."

God could have forthtold better things for Israel: don't you think so?

Don't force it sir!
The first King was Saul, how bad was he?
The second King was David, he was a very Good king (So did God's foretelling fail?)
The third King was Solomon, you know any other time Israel enjoyed economic peak as under the years of Solomon? (Did God's foretelling fail again?)
We had good guys like
1. Hezekiah
2. Josiah
3. Asa
And many more.... Are they bad kings?
There was no foretelling or forthtelling in the scripture you gave.

DrLiveLogic:
And I'm still coming with more truths y'all can't stand on my Triuneness thread. Janosky is still not tired of quoting verses about the son of Man, and the son of God. Janosky go and read my GOAT movie thread and save yourself from your delusion. All these scriptures you're quoting cannot save your life, learner.

When you come with more truths. Help me also with showing without doubt that Jesus was Divinity become Humanity with the OLD TESTAMENT ONLY!

Csonice1:
u are a blasphemer.

I don't believe Jesus is Angel Michael but Janosky was right.

I repeat:

when Paul lays hands and the sick gets healed;
The Father, Son and Spirit worked together to bring that reality (healing) into existence.
I can't separate them.

Division of labour... Right?

what Christ did was the greatest manifestation of humility that even most of the beneficiaries can't understand.

Okay?

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Commentary: The writer here is telling us to emulate something about Christ. Which is?

2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Commentary: The phrase "in the form of God" ... Is to say "the nature of God".... So the writer is saying Christ had the nature of God but he didn't let that Get in his Head and start thinking he himself is equal to God.

2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

[b]Commentary: Even with the nature of God, he expressed himself like a servant

2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

[b]Commentary: This Christ who was fashioned as a man humbled himself and was obedient unto death....
What shall we say then, Jesus is God Almighty with this verse?

DrLiveLogic:
Why are you avoiding the point which is how you mix up things and later change? plus you've even said: "...anything God didn't forthtell is nonexistent..." and Lucifer and his fall are existing, so....Apart from even telling shade that foreknowledge and predestination were at the same point. It's why you were told you're twisted.

When I Made mention of "anything future God didn't declare is nonexistent"...., I then continued and said, Angels, Humans, any being with a freewill and an active force can also declare. Lucifer declared his fall the moment he said " I will" .

**Facepalm**,smh. Wonder why it took you so long to bring out these verses. I had been anticipating them the moment you tried smuggling your "darkness is light" fraud LMAO! You just can't get any more twisted. So you believe God's light is darkness because he wrapped himself in a cloud. Smh. You're not a very thorough bible student. Learn to go beyond KJV and study original languages.

FYI, "Clouds and darkness" in Psalm 97:2 are two Hebrew words that always go as a pair in OT. Simply means "regular clouds(as in the day sky) and thick clouds(as in for rain)". FYI, these clouds are lit up with his glory light like the sun lighting up a cloud. Remember, the pillar of light-giving fire covered up in a cloud in daytime in the wilderness, right? You can never generate the fraud "God's "darkness" is still light" from the bible. Give it up.

As for Psalm 18:11, LMAO. You should learn to read the context of a verse before quoting it henceforth.
Psa 18:9-12... He spread out the heavens and descended with a thick cloud under his feet, riding on a cherub, he flew down, darting on the wings of the wind. He made the darkness his covering and his pavilion surrounding him were dark waters and the thick clouds of vapour. And with the brightness before him he passed the heavy clouds, with hail stones and coals of fire....
FYI, this describes a descent into the realms of darkness and waters and what God did with the dreaded darkness in all its power showing he knew every trick in their book and used darkness to as a play thing. It is not describing God's state in heaven which is
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in light which none can approach.
1 John 1:5" God is light, and in him is no darkness at all
Jas 1:17 ... the Father of lights, with whom is no alteration, neither shade of turning.
Not today bro, no place for you to hide, Light is everywhere here (pun intended) and clearly established that there is no special kind of darkness/evil with God.

You still seem to not understand my use of "darkness". Where did you ever see Jesus do anything dark or come off as "darkness" to you? Such as I would then use the statement " God's darkness is still light". He smites king and allows babes to be dashed on rocks, his love endures forever. "Smiting of kings and dashing of babies on rocks" are humanly seen as things of "the dark" or "darkness". But If God is at the reins of this action, it is not!

Give up man. Ra'ah is ra'ah. It's used with only one meaning - evil, bad, wicked, opposite of good, always and this was it's meaning in Isaiah 45:6

How your model of evil God can judge the world of evil is what still makes me laugh. You still seem not to understand that man's standpoint is different from God's. Ra'ah/resha is the same to a Man(so he will use it interchangeably). I don't care if you were sent by God to kill my only son, that's evil to me still. However from God's standpoint, that's a kudos to you.

Smh. God knew what Abraham was gonna do before he did it. Now you change your stance again. Before you said God does not know what we will do before we do it like with Lucifer and it doesn't exist. You will only keep twisting and confusing yourself until you admit your theory's flaws.

Lmao @the bolded. Another scripture twisting, opinion forcing and whatever-i-feel-should-be-right-blunder. I just showed you how that same verse was nothing like foretelling. Bring something stronger.
Romans9:11-16 that you brought is another evidence of God's forthtelling and not foretelling. The writer ended it by writing of God "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy on. Show compassion on whom I will show it to."

Think deep man, think! Lucifer dwells in darkness. He's so driven by negative energy that he doesn't repent of evil. Don't you know he even already knows his end from the apocalypse and the prophets? Why then doesn't he just quit. God dwells in light, he knows all and nothing is hidden from him but has to let things run their course for justice sake. Learn this.

Think deeper man, why create Lucifer then? If he didn't create him, we would all be saved a whole hell of trouble. I won't even be here trying to get myself saved. You won't even be here. There is no "course for justice" in anything here. You also wrote "Lucifer dwells in darkness". What kind of darkness do you mean here? The same one God hides himself with?

Learn again, Lucifer doesn't know and he has every right to test it as the custodian of the earth.

Once a light bearer does not know that the God he has been ministering before knows the future?! Light bearer? C'mon that's very weak, Lucifer can school us all on God. Saying "Lucifer doesn't know" is a bad defence.

Dude, define foreknowledge please and my point which you dodged cause you isolated this part was that there are occasions of foreknowledge all over the bible. What about Esau and Jacob, you keep avoiding? What about all prophecy in the bible?

I didn't avoid anything, I answered you. You are just hellbent on believing in your foreknowledge stuff.
Esau and Jacob were a result of God's declaring and orchestration. Read the same Romans 9:11-16 that you gave. This time, in-between the lines.

**Facepalm**. Are you really asking this even after quoting the text? Smh. Now, back to my point, it was the angel of YHWH who got to know that Abe feared God above all. God already knew.

No! God never told you He knew already. Stop forcing preconceived opinion into scriptures. God multiplied the seed of Ishmael not the Angel that said "I will". Use that same concord for the verse and it was still God that " now knows ".

Aren't you always funny? Why is infinity unquantifiable exactly? LMAO! I wonder if you did math?

Your own definition was outta this planet, LMAO. Saying infinitity means everything possible and more. The definition I gave is " God's knowledge cannot be quantified by a finite number". His knowledge is "unlimited". That's the standard definition of infinity, not the new one you formulated.

My goodness!, Smh over and over. You keep going lower and lower on the scale. You really don't know the laws of nature reflect God's unseen realities?
Start reading your bible. Romans 1: 19-20, Hebrews 11:3. Bless your heart.

That's not what we are on about. You made mention of " law of the universe"... Do state the law.

In other words you still couldn't answer 5b& 5c. Only making claims.
And you still couldn't justify 6a or 6b. Just throwing back unrelated questions.

You keep saying "those people"... I don't even know who you are referring to.

And you didn't explain what was misunderstood because you still couldn't answer 6c&6d &7. Cool.

Ask them plainly. If I didn't understand, then I didn't get your question.

From your end, I guess. LMAO! Rasha and ra'ah myth remains nonexistent, even after you declared it. LMAO!

Another lie concoted in your bubbles. Where did I say so?

8b/ Did you not read your own post I reproduced? "God only declares according to His good nature exclusive of darkness, death..." Except you wanna change it again. Now justify 8b.

Quote me. You still seem not to understand a man's use of "darkness" , uh?

Right! For people with your kind of ego, we scrutinize such claims. Until you tell us squarely, what you never knew before and got to know, from who on the thread, this seems just superficial false humility.
About my stance, you got so excited at your breakthrough revelation, you didn't settle down to soak it all in. Else by now you'd have developed it further and have seen more light. Like I said before, this isn't some to be handled as loosely and shallow as you have hence the contradictions. If you really understood the nitty gritty, you'd know to start from establishing the original divine state, the mystery of triuneness, origin of evil and co. I can't state my stance, it'll have no basis and be misunderstood. These are prerequisites. And your attitude here hasn't been a bit encouraging. You more of want to be right than know the truth. I like engaging objective and critical minds.

No qualms... Since you believe so.

The question is invalid as you've attached this stance to me not that I claimed it. Even shade's position I once held easily does justice to this as he already showed you.

Inva-what? Give me an answer please.

***Facepalm**, smh. First off, try answering 10a and 10b. Second, try expounding on the text, let me even see what you make of it.

Answer mine. We stopped at 9 not 10.

Third, going to heaven was never about getting saved. They weren't saved when in heaven, they were just where their spirits belonged before they came to earth, remember?

Where was their spirits before they came to earth? Bible verse please.

Now try answering 10a, 10b and Romans 7:9 exposition. This is how I can guide you into its meaning.
Also remember all the other questions I've asked are yet to be defended till date. Your theory still remains very porous plus your cover-up that you aren't being understood is also weak.

Should I quote Romans 7:9 again? How does it justify what you believed? Unlike you, I don't misunderstand people and run off thinking they are wrong. With Romans7:9, explain how a foetus gets saved/goes to heaven without Christ.

Image123:
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The scripture says
1. Unto us a child is born.
Commentary: That child is a human child (I.e. baby Jesus)
Then it continues and says
2."The government SHALL be upon his shoulder. His name SHALL be called "
Commentary:The same Human child will then become
3. Wondeful counsellor, Mighty God.....
Commentary: The Human child shall become a God
Your scripture proves the opposite I.E. Humanity become Divinity.
That's not what we want, we need Divinity(I.e God) become humanity(human).

DrLiveLogic:
When you cannot give coherent defence to the 9 critiques and yet cannot accept the exposure of obvious flaws in your doctrine, then there's no point even engaging, your ego is at work.

Your misunderstanding is not my fault.

Read through your own thread, you've consistently jumped from one stance to another constantly shape-shifting and twisting things until you not only contradict yourself but also make no sense at all and have no ultimate stance.

Somehow you seem to be the only one seeing me jumping ships. Again sir, you are twisting words to satisfy your self.

Here you make foreknowing and declaring/forthtelling mean the same thing but later you say they're different.

LMAO. I never said God Forthtold Lucifer to fall. Once again, you couldn't comprehend my simple sentences.

This is just Smh, facepalm pathetic. Hear yourself, "God's darkness is still light". You claimed so from Psalm 139:11-12. We torchlighted it in its context and refuted it but you still hold on to the lie asides that it even contradicts your own statement here:
Next to 2/.

Hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha hahahahahahaha.... As if I've never seen these bible verses:
Psalms 97:2
"Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteous and judgement are the habitation of his throne"
Psalms 18:11
He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were Dark waters and thick cloud of skies.
Where did he see those "Darkness"? Perhaps he went to borrow 5 yards of darkness from the Devil. The darkness in this context is not the same meaning as the one in
1 John 1:5
"...... God is light, and in him is no darkness at all"
I and John used Darkness in the same "meaning".
In Isaiah 45:7
" I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create calamity: I the Lord do all these things "
My God wasn't talking about the 1john1:5 meaning of Darkness (remember I and John used the word "darkness" in the same meaning). My God was more of the Psalms97:2 and Psalm18:11 kind of Darkness.
Learn not to assume a word has the same meaning in every verse.

Smh, someone pls call 911. How low will you go with this.
Gen 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil (ra'ah) in the eye of YHWH and YHWH killed him.

Gen 6:5 And YHWH saw that the wickedness(ra'ah) of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil(ra'ah) continually.
2/ So God here and all over OT judges people for ra'ah kind of evil but you say it's part of God's nature and it's okay to be evil as long as not 'resha' evil? Don't even get us started on ra'ah else you display your ignorance. I have a million verses to point out your fraud.

I speak not as a Man. If I come over to your house and beat you almost to death with a club, and I said it is Good or Ra'ah. Will you organize a party for me? Every Ra'ah done outside the will of God is the one God judges you for.
If I come to your house and beat you to death with a club (following God's order), as a man, that is "Ra'ah" to you but God will tell me kudos for it.
So you see now, When God said "know Good and evil" , He still was not exceeding his nature.

3a/So God didn't foreknow Abe will obey him but he foreknew Abe will command his unborn kids to obey him before Abe ever did and even knew they will obey the commandments.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, he will command his children and his household after him, and they will guard the way of YHWH, to do justice and judgment, that YHWH may bring on Abraham what he promised.

Smiles.... That was God's confidence in Abraham and there was nothing like foreknowledge there. The same confidence I have in my wife that she will not cheat and I wrote her name boldly in my will. The same confidence God had in Job when he struck a dare with the Devil. Learn something from the Job, God and Devil saga - "Lucifer(fallen or not) knows God far more than you do, yet He entered a dare with God who knows already what the outcome of a dare will be. Who does that?! If God foreknows future, Lucifer in all his time in heaven would be aware and he won't even accept the dare. However because the account of Job's faithfulness/faithlessness is undefined and nonexistent, Lucifer believed he had a shot.
Answer this, a book said God tested David to count the population of Israel and he fell into it. Another book said the devil tested David to count the population of Israel and David fell into it. A. Who actually tested David? B. Why was He tested?

3b/ Even Moses foreknew Israel will do "ra'ah" evil after he departs, Deut 31:29 and God will punish them?

C'mon stop that thing! Ah ah? Moses said he "Know" not "foreknow". Don't try to help Moses claim what he didn't say. Again, do you remember what happened when Moses was only for a while away with God receiving the tablets? What did Israel do? So you see again, that's not foreknowledge. That was Moses' confidence in Israel's infidelity the moment they have no able leader present.For the record, the people did fairly well under Joshua.

For the record, Gen 22:12. It was an angel, not YHWH himself, who got to know that Abe feared God above all

Lmao! Jesssuuuu! Seriously?!
Gen16:10
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply your seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Who multiplied the seed? The Angel or YHWH?
C'mon don't go off board trying to sew science with Truth.

4/ Again, you will keep contradicting yourself to save your ego. You say God has no foreknowledge of our end then turn around and say he has infinite foreknowledge. Infinite means everything possible and more, nothing left out, which is why it can't be increased or reduced, so just quit trying to twist things. Funny you, too if you don't realise that the laws of the universe reveal the invisible qualities of God.

Again? You said "Infinite means everything possible and more, nothing left out"... Whose definition is this? Ha ha haha As far as I know, infinite means " unquantifiable ". I.e God's knowledge cannot be defined by a finite number.
Which laws? State them before you make outrageous claims!

5a/You can never get yourself out of the wormhole you put yourself in. Whether anyone's name was tagged to fulfilling this declaration or not. Fact is if God declared, then some man must fulfill and it's God's that has destined this evil inconsistent with his good nature.

Would it shock you if you don't see Judas in Hell? Let's not go there, the talk is not for today.

5b/ Now again, you say God, from infinite foreknowledge, has gone to zero foreknowledge @ the bolded.
5c/Also going by your logic, God declared all the evil being done on earth by Satan and men, but without attaching any particular name to it. He therefore must be responsible for evil on earth whoever it comes through. Maybe you believe in Isaiah 45:6 in a strange way, afterall, LMAO!

Smiles.... Wherever you don't understand, ask them before you concote blunders in your assessment. My view does not make God evil, even 1%.

6a/ Smh, give up bro. So if the Lake of fire is not in the city, it is nonexistent?
6b/So you agree God declared these men into existence, yet having declared only according to His solely good nature, his word failed in their life, hence they produced evil instead. God's word can fail?

Lol. As if those people were saints. They are all of their father the devil, where do you want them to be? In quarantine?

6c&6d/ In other words, no reasonable answer cause you can't justify it. Cool.
7/ In other words, no answer. Cool.

In other words, ask to know if you got a person right before you misunderstand him.

8a/ ra'ah and Rasha myth concocted in your lab busted earlier already. Come up with a valid answer now.

Another poor assessment.

8b/ Isaiah 45:6 definitely trashed your claim that God only declares consistent with his good/light nature exclusive of any evil/darkness you made below.

From someone who did not interpreted Isaiah45:6 well. Where did I say "God only declares" ?

Remember, bro. I'm yet to reveal my stance. Only scrutinizing your 'know-all' claims. And the point is even you are wrong for disbelieving in God's foreknowledge because he only forthtold in Isa 46:10.

Hahahahahahaha I wasn't even the one that brought up the Isa 46:10. Concerning your stance, you can state them. I learned from everyone's stance, I will definitely learn from yours.
While on that, tell me why you preach the gospel if only some people are destined to listen according to some sci-fi foreknowledge.
Do well to answer that please.

Smh. I already gave you Romans 7:9. 10a/ But seriously, why not tell us plainly, can a foetus or two year old of an unbeliever go to hell? and if so
10b/ under what conditions.

Have you forgotten that we all have a copy of the same bible?
Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died
How does this prove a foetus get saved/ goes to heaven without Christ?

butterfly777:
You are even wrong from your question.

Jesus Christ was not angel become human. He was God, who took human form.

Sweetheart, proof your second statement with Bible verses from the old testament only.
PS: I never said or believed Jesus was an Angel.

DrLiveLogic:
....

You are the reason why our conversation has not been healthy and edifying. I've been discussing with Shade and Muttley and wherever we don't understand each other, we make sure we confirm if we perfectly get what the other party meant.
There were many instances where you misunderstood me, you ought to confirm but you didn't. You moved on to believing you were perfect with what you believed you got.
If you want to argue with no essence and means for edifying, then it's a waste of time. If otherwise, let's clear each other out:

1. I said "God cannot exceed his nature"
If God can exceed his nature, then that means He can stop being God! Because, God is His nature and God's nature is God.

2. I said "Darkness, Evil, Death, and Nonexistent" does not exist in God's nature.
I meant "Darkness as a separation from the source of Light&Darkness"...
Satan didn't invent something new, He Got separated from his source.
If this " darkness " exist in God, then it means God can be separated from his source.
II. I meant "Evil as a result of doing anything (whether it is good&Evil you) outside of God's perfect will"
Satan did not invent something new. He did the same thing outside the will of God.
If this Evil exist in God's nature, then God can do something outside his own perfect will (e.g fornicate)
III. I mean "Death as the separation from the source of life".
Satan separated himself from the source of Life (Just like Adam) and they both died.

3. I said " God does not foreknow the future because the future because the future does not exist"....
If you did follow, you see how I've explained myself.

4. I said there is no future aside what God Has Declared or permitted to happen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This best sum up my view. I've also set a base of meaning for my use of "Evil" , "Darkness" and the likes.
Take this up and crosscheck with my replies to your question, whereever necessary, give your commentary of where my view is insufficient.
If you believe I contradict myself anywhere, show it, don't just say it.

You say there is something missing, is that not so? Alright, show me.

You derive joy thinking you are winning some brawl. In all honesty, I still don't see anything from your questions but cited many places where you misunderstood me.
Tender your questions, tender my previous answers and let's continue from there.
Also, don't forget to show me this "mysterious mystery of God" that I am missing.

shadeyinka:
You write about Forthtelling and many times mean Foretelling. I've been trying to make you see that the "coming to pass" of a Forthtelling fall squarely upon the shoulder of the one who does the Forthtelling. To every Forthtelling, the power of God ensure the declarations to be.

"Coming to pass of a declaring depends primely on God (whether directly or indirectly".
Nowhere have I misplaced forthtelling for foretelling.

In the case of Hazael, I wanted you to look at the specific details such as Hazael dashing children on the rocks and cutting open the stomachs of pregnant women. Such level of evil was "forthtold" meaning that Hazael MUST necessarily do that according to the word of God.

The specific details were specifics of the punishment God is meting out on Israel. Since it was declared by God, it's not Evil but a calamitous Judgement.

Forthtelling means bringing to pass according to the declaration.
Example 1.:
Gen 16:12:
"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him: and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

This was a blessing. Did you pull this out of context?

Implications:
1. It is impossible to alter Gods declaration
2. God made Ismael a wild and troublesome man
3. Ishmael couldn't have changed it even if he wanted
4. Ismael is NOT guilty of his behaviours
Example 2.:

Which behaviors? Bible verse! Jacob blessed His 12 sons and the blessing stuck from Generation to Generation. Not all of them had a desirable blessing like Judah's or like Joseph's, yet it is blessing still. Why are you then using blessings to justify nonsense?
Press forward and again, you will see I am consistent with the word of God.
Gen17:20
"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him........."
He then continues to add to it and said "and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly;twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation:"
Even Abraham knew that there was no future. His confidence was in the fact that God can make Sarah give birth at a old age and not that God entered some divine time machine and saw how Sarah still begat Isaac. (I speak as a man).
We can look into the blessings of Judah, Levi and the likes and I will show you how your father's blessing can alter your freewill (Go and ask Esau)... Where you err is thinking that freewill is the will of a man to do anything he likes. No! It doesn't work that way. The point where freewill is unrestrained is the power it has in choosing your salvation or your damnation.

Matt 10:22:
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Implications:
1. It is impossible to alter Jesus's declaration
2. Jesus will make people of the world to hate His disciples
3. The world cannot but hate Christians even if they don't want
4. The world is NOT guilty of their hate for Christians

As if I also don't know humans. That was no forthtelling, He was stating the obvious. How many people are throwing stones at you in your work place? How many hate you? If that was forthtelling, you would have lost a hand or your phone forcefully taken away, and we both might not be able to even have this discussion as no one might be willing to see card to me now.

Example 3.:

Matt 26:24:
"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born."

Implications:
1. It is impossible to alter God's declaration
2. God has prepared the man that will sell Jesus for 30pieces of silver
3. Judas could not have avoided betraying Jesus
4. Judas is NOT guilty for betraying Jesus

It is impossible to absolve God from the evil caused by men through his Forthtelling.

Jesus said "It would have been good for him if he had not been born". Why did God then still create Judas? You see, the office of the BETRAYER has been prophesied before Judas himself and no literal name was written. It could have been Peter, James, John, Jude, Matthew or anybody. No wonder why Jesus prays so fervently for Peter and He at one place said to Peter - " Satan desires to sift you like wheat "..... Judas was the one who ended up there. Now, would it shock you if you see Judas in heaven? I would have elaborated but our discussion will shift focus.

Do you agree with the implications of the three examples above?

There were no unwanted implications.

@Highlight
God cannot Foretell the future BUT only Gods Prophets can Foretell!?

You make it sound as if I said the prophets can see what God cannot see.
I'm saying the prophet can see what has been forthtold or permitted to happen by God - that Is what foreseeing actually is. Don't get it twisted with your " there exist a record of everyone's future" mindset.

@Red colour
Can you see how you successfully mixed up Forthtelling with Foretelling? You say a prophet can only foresee what God has forthtold.

Forthtelling involves execution of the WILL of God or Do you think we can separate the will of God from what He forthtells?

You mixed it up with your mindset.

In case you still don't get it. Look at this scripture

Acts 9:15-16:
"But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: for I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

Do you know the implication of God cannot Foreknow, He can only Forthtell?

It means that God arranged the suffering for Paul even before Paul became a follower of Christ.
Do you think it makes sense?
God is sending Paul on a mission and at the same time is arranging great sufferings for him.

He should have arranged a banquet for him, isn't that so? Let the word of God speak again:
James1:2-4
My brothers, count it all joy when you fall into diverse testing and trying times. 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4. But let patience have her perfect work, that you may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing
Remember that Bible verse where it says that "Testing will surely come, but God will not test you with more than you can handle".... Also that scripture that says "Rejoicing in hope; Patient in tribulation ; ......"
No wonder the Lord is called a Refiner's fire. Know that a vessel has not attained full honor ability until it is unbreakable (Job comes to mind). That was not God being wicked to Paul, the suffering were inevitable but God still didn't shield Paul from it, they were all necessary for his vesselic perfection (I mean "maturity).

Doesn't it make sense to you that God has foreknown the kind of great sufferings Paul must pass through in doing His work and the information is to prepare Paul for the worst?

Even I would have foreknown. Anybody in the country would have foreknown. Imagine the Christians claiming they now have a new king when the country's king is not yet dead. What do you think will happen? A big feast? Definitely not, it's tribulation all the way.

You can't look at Revelation without looking at SPECIFICS of what had been spoken by God. Whatever God had spoken in the book of Revelation is God's responsibility to FULFILL (good or bad). Hence, God has to engineer evil people to be really good at evil. To behead believers, to enforce the mark of the beast .... and God will then turn round to throw these evil people into the Lake of Fire. Don't forget that if God has declared it, the power of God will ensure and enforce it.

You just spoke like a witness.
Christ's death was worse than any of the saints, that was God's own son o!
Peter's death is nothing anyone wishes for.
Stephen's death is something you can't help but feel sorry for him.
Go read the history of the first church, many were burnt alive, flayed, boiled in oil and many Terrible death.
The beheading of the saints will happen, and its all for the glory of God.
You keep highlighting "murderers, idolaters and the likes".... What do you expect? Who are those that will go to hellfire before? We both know (even without any omniscient power) that we have murderers now and we will continue to have. We both know that we have idolaters now and we will continue to have. Where is forth telling there? In fact, where is foretelling there? It's just the obvious being stated.

Can't you still see that you make God unjust by this your theory?

Except you've mixed something up again. My view (being consistent with God's word) does not in any way make God unjust. In fact, A God that can look into time and not stop somethings from happening is more unjust. (I speak as a man again)

Yes, forthtelling means DECLARING and enforcing to happen EVERYTHING that was spoken.
e.g. Hazael smashing babies on the rock and cutting open the stomachs of pregnant women

Why cry foul? Israel was used to mete out worse Judgment to other kingdoms. Why cry foul? Israel was used to smash babies on rocks! Why cry foul? Israel was used to make a bubbling kingdom desolate.
The Judgement of God is a fiery Judgement and even if it was God's chosen city that committed so great iniquity, God will not overlook!
He used Syria to punish Israel and the baby dashing on rocks, tearing open of the womb were specifics of the Judgement.
It seems you believed God punish Hazael for doing those stuffs, no! If ever Hazael was punished, it was for another reason. The Amos1:4 you asked about is not even about Hazael at all. Hazael was before Amos, so it wasn't Hazael.
The phrase "house of Hazael" was used to show that the dynasty is now under the kingship of the bloodline of Hazael. Just like you will say "house of David" and then refer to Jeroboam.

DrLiveLogic:
1/ According to you, creation will produce realities alien to God's original state and therefore the end will not be as the beginning since Satan and evil are alien to god's original state of existence?

God's darkness is light still. When John Said "God is light, in him is no darkness". Here he was talking about the kind of darkness associated with the devil. In all sense, the darkness of the devil is a phenomenon.

You've changed your stance again.
2/ Now, God knows evil you say. Before you said he knows nothing outside his nature which excludes darkness, death, evil which are simply the absence of his light essence?

You do not know the difference between " Ra'ah" and "Rasha" that's why you confused yourself and thought I changed my stance. God knowing Ra'ah is not Exceeding his nature, Ra'ah is not Rasha! Go and see Psalms 136:9-22.

3/ So God grows in knowledge and gets to know things he didn't originally know. Your god is a learner?

You had better take that nonsense last sentence back. God's ground state knowledge is Infinity. If you add 100,000 to infinity, what do you get? Infinity! Divinity(i.e Divine Infinity) does not increase with human knowledge. God Himself said to Abram - For I now Know . If you ain't happy, take it up with God for saying so. Answer this when you are replying me, Before God foreknows and after he foreknows, has he increased in knowledge?

4/ If your stance is that God updates his knowledge with our actions, then God is not a constant and the end of God is different from his beginning. This is breaking the laws of the universe. Do you agree to this?

Which law? Who wrote the law? That's the problem, you are trying to stitch science with Truth. God is a constant Infinity not a constant finity. If he was finite in his ground state, then he increased in knowledge. If he was and still is infinite, there was no increase. You got warped from Trinity where you thought God the Father can be limited to a person. Smh...the uncalled for "mystery" you are inventing is causing you a lot of problem.

You keep avoiding the crux of the matter. You claimed God doesn't know our future or end before we create it.
5a/ How then does he reveal the destiny of Esau and Jacob who had not yet made choices in the womb?
5b/ How does he also tell of Judas Iscariot's destiny , before his birth and his choices, Acts 1:20?

By declaration
The Office of A betrayer was Declared by GOD! No literal person was destined to occupy the office. It could have been Peter, Paul, John, James , anybody! But Because God has declared it, someone must fill in that office.
God isn't foreknowing anything, he is declaring them! Yet here you are trying to force an illusion into reality.
Did he ever tell you he looked into time and saw Judas betraying? You seem not to know that it has been declared since the OT.

No literal names, yes, but you have not answered my question. There are those who are outside the city who are not in the lamb's scroll of life.
6a/ Are these people not existing? If so, your stance that anything God didn't forthtell, is nonexistent is false?

The lake of fire is not in the city. So what are saying? How is the stance false? You will just say what you feel like(from some science perspective) and then say "if so, your stance is false". Who does that? Show where and how the stance is false.

6b/ and who brought them into existence?

They were never extinguished before. Invalid question again.

6c/ If it was God that declared them into existence, then it means his word which declares according to his nature of only good has been overturned by them? God's word has failed then or
6d/ if God created them and none can undo what God does, then how were they able to end up in a reality opposed to God's foreknowledge.

It's like you interprete the book of revelation in a way different from everyone. Don't assume we have the same interpretation and start asking questions with no base.

I wonder when you're gonna stop repeating this mantra of absence of light like some new revelation.
7/ You keep contradicting yourself as expected. You said only we and God have the ability to create our end which God doesn't know before it is created. Now these people have created realities and an end against god's. So it means the end is different from the beginning, again.

Which people? Those in revelations? How did they Create it? You will just come from Pluto and ask questions on earth. Sorry sir, we don't work with the same constant of gravity

Like I said until you understand God's state of existence, you'll keep getting things mixed up.
Psa 139:11-12 If I say "surely the darkness will cover me", even night will be light about me. Yes the darkness hides not from you but the night shines as the day. The darkness and the light are both alike to you.
Learn not to mix up contexts. The only meaning here is that the darkness is as visible, rather than obscure, to God as light.
8a/ Meaning God knows darkness just as well as he knows light, not that God's darkness is light. This is already against your stance on foreknowledge?
Isa 45:7 I form light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YAHWEH do all these things
Here again, it says God creates both all the good and evil, light and darkness.

Misinterpretation happens when you don't know the difference between " Ra'ah" and "Rasha"

8b/ This is also clearly against your stance concerning predestination which is supposed to only be according to God's solely good nature?

Making claims without content. How am I against my stance? Show it!

The point is you used this to strike out God knowing the end from travelling through time to the end, which you labeled foreknowledge, but that he only knows the end from the beginning, i.e. creating it or forthtelling.
9/ Now do you accept that God also has foreknowledge of our end apart from forthtelling?

The point is, the lots of Christians misinterpreted Isaiah46:10. God never said "foreknow", he said " declare ". You lot then try to help God claim what is not true by cunningly interpreting declare as foretell.

10/ As for your stance on the foetuses. You're really kidding, aren't you. Does any foetus go to hell, like during an abortion or a little baby that dies, since these haven't chosen Christ?

I hate baseless opinion. Show me a single bible verse that shows anything gets saved and goes to Heaven without Christ.

Summary: Your position leaves many gaps, loopholes and contradictions as expected because you've not correctly defined god's original state of existence and still think in normal human terms.

You said so. The word of God is consistent with mine.

shadeyinka:
As if you are trying hard to avoid facing the truth

2 Kgs 8:12-13:
"And Haz´a-el said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strongholds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child. And Haz´a-el said, But what, is thy servant a dog, that he should do this great thing? And Eli´sha answered, The LORD hath showed me that thou shalt be king over Syria."

I did told you to go check 1King19:15-18 but you didn't and you continued to bask in the same illusion.
1Kings19:15-18:
15. And the Lord said unto him, Go return on your way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when you get there,anoint Hazael to be king over Syria
Commentary: God without doubt forthtold Hazael's kingship.
16. And Jehu the son of Nimshishall you anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt you anoint to be prophet in your room
Commentary: God without doubt forthtold/Declared Jehu as King and Elisha as prophet in Elijah's room.
17. And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
Commentary: God himself used Jehu and Hazael to punish Israel for their iniquities
Now relating 1kings19:15-18 to 2kings8:12-13, we are perfectly in line with the word of God when we say:
1. God forthtold/declared Hazael to be King of Syria and Elijah (being a prophet) was given the grace to foreknow what God has forthtold.
This is the exact part where you err. You think Foreknowing is a prophet seeing what will happen in the future, no! It's seeing what the LORD God has forthtold to happen in the future.
2. God forthtold/declared Hazael to be the Instrument God will use to punish Israel for their iniquities and Elijah was given the grace to foreknow what God has forthtold, even the specifics (of the punishment). This is where you err again, Elijah did not by some divine means look into what will happen in the future (this is not foretelling)... Elijah was able to see what God has forthtold/declare to happen in the future(this is what foretelling actually is).
3. 2kings8:12 were specifics of How God intends to punish Israel.

PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS
1.The Prophet said: Because I know the evil you will do to the children of Israel.
How did the Prophet know the specifics of what Hazael will do?

Answer: The prophet knew what God has Forthtold to happen in the future, which is - God will punish Israel through Hazael: that is what foretelling is in prophecy.

2. Do you think God engineered Hazael to rip up the belly of pregnant women(as part of His forth telling)

God can engineer you to kill a king. He can use you to punish anybody. That was God using Hazael to punish Israel.

3. Why did Elisha say: "The Lord hath shown me...". Is this forthtelling?

We've ironed this before na. I'm not saying there is no foretelling, I'm saying there is no foretelling when it comes to God.
When a prophet foretells, there are two principal cases
1. When the prophet sees what God has declared to happen in the future
2. When the prophet sees a " IF/IF NOT" dependent forthtelling of God. For example, God will tell him "This this this will happen if he Goes" and "this this this will happen if he does not Go". One of the scenes can be selected and it's dependent on the prophecy-receiver choice (take Nineveh as a case study)....
Anyways, It must require God's direct declaration or God's permission for another person's declaration...
When I say " another person's declaration " I mean - for example: I will go to work tomorrow is your declaration. God can look and say "Mumu, I will collect your life this night"... In this case, the person's declaration will not come to pass. Or God can say, "My Boy, I permit your going to work".... In this case, the person's declaration will come to pass.

4. Please can you explain why God is destroying the House of Hazael his obedient servant?
Amos 1:4: "but I will send a fire into the house of Haz´a-el, which shall devour the palaces of Ben — ha´dad."

Read Amos1

I didn't mention anything about names. I related what God said will happen in the book of Revelation 9:20-21

I said:

Said what?

Let me give you another example.
Is Rev9:20-21 a FORETELLING or a FORTHTELLING?
Rev 9:20-21:
"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood; which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION
1. If Rev 9:20-21 it is a FORTHTELLING, would you then agree that God MADE these men evil so that His words should not go unfulfilled.

You have misplaced something again. No specifics here, they are all collective!
Revelation is a declaration of what will befall those that chose Christ till the end.
Revelation is a declaration of what will befall those that denied Christ in the last days.
Revelation is a declaration of what will befall the Devil, fallen angels and the likes.
God didn't make anyone evil! Please explain how my view supports that Rev9:20-21 shows that God made some people evil.

2. Is this statement above a representation of your view as forthtelling?

You still get things mixed up subconsciously thinking forthtelling means DECLARING EVERYTHING.

I will appreciate if you answer each question as itemized rather than saying things not concerning the question asked.

I answered with consistency to the word of God.