₦airaland Forum

Xmuslim:
your mind is what you must trust bro unless there is absolute empirical evidence that go against what you feel is right.

You are tending towards materialism these days. Having someone tell me my own deepest secrets and private past is nothing that can be "empirically proved"...

For example I feel is not right for God to burn people in eternal hell. No scripture can force me to believe that God is so unjust and live turturing people

Your problem started from " I feel..." If there is one important thing about God everyone should note, it's that *every of your feelings were created by him*... What will you then say, that your feeling is right than the one who created the feeling itself? God forbid!
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There is only one animal that (by nature) instinctively worship something higher than it - that's a human. Before all these Abrahamic religions, men has been worshipping some kind of god or self made gods. Do you have an explanation for why Humans do so by instinct/nature?

Dtruthspeaker:
You wish this because you do not well and right. If you did well, you would wanna Live and Live Forever!

But those who do not well, seek and desire ways to escape PUNISHMENT!

It Is Written, HE WHO OBEYS THE LAW, FEARS NO PUNISHMENT!

Even "I" cannot stop myself from going to heaven, I fear nothing bro.
I wished there would be no Lake of fire but death for once and death for all that did not believe in the son of God.

Maximus69, Chatinent, and the rest of the JW's... I noticed you all avoided DrLiveLogic's comment on "Hell" and the "lake of fire".
Cherry picking at its best.

Maximus69:
The truth is at Death we seize to exist!

I so much wish this was how the way things are (I speak as a man)... Unfortunately, the scripture was clear on it.. And I will go with the Word of God than go with what I feel is right.

MuttleyLaff:
What does "no problem" mean?

It means - there is no problem.

I asked that, if you say "spot on", then are you game, free and ready to be a volunteer and play the guinea pig role, in an experiment I have, to determine whether or not, you have freewill and if there's the universal law of cause and effect, hmm? This required a binary answer of Yes or No, not that your ambiguous "no problem" answer

Yes. Bring it on! I and anyone reading might learn a thing or two.

We will do the experiment real time, so just make sure you have the time to act in the experiment. If you are game, then get back to me, so we can decide on a mutually agreeable time to carry out the experiment, with you starring as the guide pig

Tomorrow 8/9pm?

Anything to help a brother out. I have a premonition, your demonstration won't end well, that you'll likely hoist yourself up, with your very own petard

No. You guys are good at saying "You misunderstand so so so.... You confuse this for that".. When actually, you are the ones that don't take things as they are because you want to keep a belief.

MuttleyLaff:
Hi, my dear beloved and loving brother sir

Sweetest heart...

Blabbermouth, since according to your reasoning and deduction, the future doesnt exist, why dont you just burn all your money right now. At least there is nothing like future (i.e. as to you, it doesn't exist)
Why dont you behave like the birds in the sky, who don't plant or harvest, and hence to save for a raining day, dont save for the future, hmm?

I have never met a man, no, not one that actually live, talk and interact as though a future exist. In practice, we all know there is nothing like future. In papers however, you all chide back thinking that it will make God less omniscient.
See what you asked me - Why am I saving money for the future? Why don't I just burn up all the money I have and live as free as the bird?
Can't you see? It is because I am very sure that there is nothing like a constant "what will happen in the future"... So I said to myself - If I save now, I have declared/orchestrated a means by which I will sustain myself in the future. My act of saving is me declaring (right from the present)what my future will be like.

If there was a constant account of my future (the one God has foreknown), then any thing that happens, I will say it is kádárá(I.e. Destiny) and just let things roll out as same with what God has foreseen...
A realm where a future exist is where I can live free as a bird (since I cannot change the script I wrote with my own hands).
Muttley, you seeing the light now aren't you?

I have not knowingly drop any scripture. Feel free to present what the scripture is and tell what you're picking bones at with it. I will be more than pleased to accommodate and/or indulge you

The ones I quoted nko I just didn't go explicit expounding them since the scriptures you gave were similar to Shadeyinka's own.

Asking questions is to be encouraged. Asking valid questions certainly will mostly be welcomed and appreciated

I will do that at the right time.

CAPSLOCKED:
I'LL BE GOING TO OVER 3000 HELLFIRES WHEN I DIE.
THERE HAS TO BE A ROSTER FOR ATTENDING EACH ONE EVERYDAY I GUESS. SO ONE HELLFIRE A DAY, THEN I MOVE TO ANOTHER ONE THE NEXT DAY.. LIKE A TOURIST. HA!

No, you won't.

Xmuslim:
If you are weak and can't leave your religion despite the inconveniencies and nonsensical concepts in it due to the fear of hell fire. Remember that the hell fire of another religion is waiting for you. Good luck in the burning

It's like you are the one actually scared. In the purest state of your mind, you are anchored on "I hope my disbelief in it will make me feel safe".

Seriously
My atheist friends should have trouped in en masse to the said location.
There was this atheist that keeps claiming the supernatural is not real... He was mouthing and mouthing until one guy came and asked him to do just two things;
1. Pen down his name (surname + first name) and his Mother's name
2.Give the location or area where he resides
He said thunder will strike the atheist... And the Address was for Nairalanders to actually confirm that the thunder delivered its package to the guy (perhaps, in the news).
That was how my atheist guy vanished into thin air.

MuttleyLaff:
Blabbermouth, if you say "spot on", then are you game, free and ready to be a volunteer and play the guide pig role, in an experiment I have, to determine whether or not, you have freewill and if there's the universal law of cause and effect, hmm? Also to see how much of this alleged pre-installed genetic and psychological thinking of the creature's environment will come or not come into play?

No problem. However, I also need to demonstrate how flawed and unreasonable everything will be if a " Fantasy-future" exist. Will you be my guest?

MuttleyLaff:
"Then God said to him,
'Fool, in this night your soul will be required from you, and whose will these things be which you have prepared?'
(i.e. But God said to him,
'You fool! I will demand your life from you tonight! Now who will get what you've accumulated?')"
- Luke 12:20

"Surely no one knows the future, and no one can tell another person what will happen"
- Ecclesiastes 8:7

"yet a fool keeps on babbling.
No one knows what will happen; who can tell him what will happen in the future?"
- Ecclesiastes 10:14

Each of the scriptures back my observant view of you that you have limited and often underdeveloped knowledge that is exasperated by regimes of needless overthinking that promotes distortions of truth and rendered you to become an addict of denials

The different plot, different context, all join up together to provide a strong complement and solidarity, to the "God saw the future" sic belief.

Now why not tell. How did God know that the Rich fool in Luke 12:20 above will die later on, in the future, that night?

Good morning sir.
Your Question: How did God know that the Rich fool in Luke 12:20 above will die later on, in the future, that night?
God (Himself Speaking): You fool I will demand your life from you tonight
Scripture-Backed Answer: God himself took the rich fool's life.. That was God's orchestration/declaration! So what shall we say, God does not know what He himself has declared? This is the truth- there is nothing like future (as it doesn't exist) aside what God HAD DECLARED or PERMITTED to happen(I.e. God permitting another being's declaration of "what will happen)..
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We've assessed the scriptures you and Shade dropped. We will like to pen down ours and ask questions from them. Should I carry on?

.

MuttleyLaff:
"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered
and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account"
- Hebrews 4:13

"For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth,
to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him.
In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars.”"
- 2 Chronicles 16:9

"He reveals the deep and hidden things;
He knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with Him"
- Daniel 2:22

""Can a man hide in secret places where I cannot see him?" declares the LORD.
"Do I not fill the heavens and earth?" declares the LORD"
- Jeremiah 23:24

"You know what I am going to say even before I say it, LORD
(i.e. And thou hast foreseen all my ways: for there is no speech in my tongue.
Or, even before there is a [single] word on my tongue, you know all about it, LORD.)"
- Psalm 139:4

"The eyes of the LORD are everywhere.
They watch evil people and good people"
- Proverbs 15:3

"... For the LORD sees every heart and knows every plan and thought.
If you seek him, you will find him.
But if you forsake him, he will reject you forever."
- 1 Chronicles 28:9b

"From the beginning I revealed to you what would happen.
These words came out of my mouth, and I made them known.
Suddenly, I acted, and they happened"
- Jeremiah 16:17

"Who is this Blabbermouth that obscures My plans with words without knowledge?
(i.e. Who is this Blabbermouth that questions My wisdom with such ignorant words?
"Who is this Blabbermouth who keeps darkening My counsel without knowing what he's talking about?
Why do you Blabbermouth talk so much when you know so little?
Who is this Blabbermouth that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words?
Who are you Blabbermouth to question My wisdom with your ignorant, empty words?)"
- Job 38:2

None of this scriptures back your view.... Different plot, different context, all swallowed up with a lazy "God saw the future" belief.

ictplotter:
With due respect, u still not make any reasonable point here. Can you point out one meaningful gospel verse from that book. I hav studied and reasoned that book years upon years, but it usefulness i cannot point out. Nobody hav ever refers to this book while preaching or winning souls?

Sir... I don't think anyone will be able to make you think or see things otherwise,, your mind has been made up.

Maximus69:
The highlighted is where your delusion hides from you!

Alright.

DappaD:
No wahala I Don hear you.
You know better than the Christians of the first century who worshiped together as one united “CHURCH” abi?—Acts 2:46-47, Hebrews 10:34-35
Emela ka m chịa ochi biko

See yourself use "One united Church"... In the first century churches, there were no denominations! Yea, no Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenees, witnesses, Redemeers and What have you... kind of denomination. The church then was only defined by geography... If you are in Ladociae then you fellowship with fellow Christians in Ladociae. If you travel/relocate to pergamus, then you fellowship with Christians at pergamus. Can you do that now?
2. There were no "church"(some brick and wood building termed as the " house of God" where people must have meet in order to worship God) in the first century... All we have is an "Assembly of the called out ones" (I.e. An ecclesia)...
Like the writer said : Where there be no difference amongst us - No Jew, gentile, roman, Greek or whatever.. All is brought unto one, yea even Christ...

DappaD:
@bolded, I suggest you leave unsubstantiated claims/jokes/weak humour alone let's focus on what we're discussing here.
So why is it that it's only amongst JW's that you consider the bolded to be a sin? Simple, it's because you believe only JW's stand for the truth in the Bible.
Mr Blabbermouth, in all your churches, who holds anyone accountable for their actions if they commit fornication or any other sin?
Do you know that Jehovah's Witnesses hold fast to Bible standards to “STOP KEEPING COMPANY” with sexual immoral/sinful/unrepentant people?—1Corinthians 5:11, 6:9,10
How many of your churches strictly follow this stern but simple rule from the Bible?

You still don't get it do you? In my Church, there are only 4 beings - Me, God, Jesus And The Holy spirit (yea, you can refer to the Holy spirit as an active force if you like)...
I don't go to churches made with bricks and woods!
So, those points you raised ain't my problem.

DappaD:
Go and confirm all I said above. Nothing is out of place. That's just how things are.
The LOVE amongst JW's runs very deep.(1Peter 1:22)

I hear. Howbeit, there be those amongst them that spread legs door-to-door rather than spread the gospel door-to-door.... A very charitable love.
I won't make heaven (I mean "eternal life" by claiming JW for Jesus. Last I checked, he was going to judge and reward not by the denomination you belong to... But by His Grace and you are rewarded by your works.
Sir, it profiteth me nothing therefore to associate with any denomination.

Let me park here...

DappaD:
The definition of this “LOVE” is not of a contigent sort. Infact Jesus said his followers will be identified with this mark of LOVE existing today only amongst Jehovah's Witnesses (John 13:34,35)
That's why you'll often hear people say
“Tufia Jehovah's Witnesses love only themselves haba sef”
And you yourself confirmed it in your preceding comments on another thread.


And that's why I'll feel safer and at peace in the home of a JW I've never met before in my life residing in a foreign country(John 14:27) than in the home of a blood relative I've known all my life in Nigeria.

It's not as if anything will change if I raise the heat.... No problem, enjoy your sect.

haddeylium:
Blabbermouth, is this you?

Who said you ain't doing well in "Love". I'm saying you are not the only one.

kkins25:
I don't see any difference between the 'g' and 'G', whatever difference exist- only exist in your mind.

The totality of possibilities exist in 'God', yet the outcome of any event cannot be known by 'God' until the the cause that would affect the outcome is effected.

Without the cause and effect principle, then the concept of 'freewill' is a sham and all creatures would be subject to the pre-installed genetic and psychological paradigm of the creature's environment. infact, because of the pre-installed genetic and psychological parameters of every creature the concept of righteous and unrighteousness is a downright ridiculous.

Spot on!

I decided to do some light Word study today and I opened my Bible straight to Romans 9... Beloved, what I saw was shocking and I can't help but utter beneath my breathe "Wow! The spirit is one" ... Would it interest us all to realize that someone had gone before me and had expressed this truth in a more comprehensive manner than I did. ShadeYinka sir, shall we read this together (In-between the lines this time around)
Romans 9
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Commentary: ShadeYinka and DrLiveLogic, I did say that Esau's and Jacob was God's orchestration/Declaration... Paul said the same!
Did I not tell you that Esau's character was nothing ignorant of God's orchestration?
Yet I say unto you, your character has never and will never be the factor for your salvation.
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Commentary: ShadeYinka, this was what I asked when you raised the Judas case. Let's keep reading and see where it leads.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Commentary: Do you see God in action here? You see for truth now what I was claiming with the likes of Pharaoh, Judas, and The blind man from birth that Jesus himself said "He was blind that the glory of God be manifested through Christ"...
If we are to start from Genesis and begin to unravel scriptures together, we will sure see how everything from Genesis-John typified, represented, and symbolize truths, law, secrets, mysteries, and realities in Christ. From " Let there be Light" yea! Down to "death of Ananias and Sapphira".

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Commentary: ShadeYinka this was what you asked me, you remember?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Commentary: woah! Glory! ShadeYinka, you remember I used the same words Paul used in verse 21? Here is Paul himself (under the unction of the Holy ghost) answering the question you asked me.
However I will add, God is focused on the essence, yea! The big picture! I mean Salvation and the eternal dispensation to come! So even if the potter uses the lump of clay for whatever he would, there is (A Must!) a chance still for the clay to key into the big picture!
Again bro, don't be surprised to see Pharaoh, Noah mockers, Genghis Khan, Judas Iscariot saved!

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Commentary: Remember Judas? Remember Peter's Denial? Now would you agree that there was a mighty picture and a big mystery enshrouded in their acts.
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Commentary: Glory! Glory! Glory!
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Beloved ShadeYinka, so much misconception comes from reading the scripture with a preconceived notion (actually it's necessary but then, if the notion is not true, then we are bound to misinterprete the scriptures).... Let's see this together:
1. Daniel 2:28

However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.
Except God is the author of the confusion in the world.
Commentary: There is no future aside:
1. What God has forthtold
2. What God has permitted to happen...
When the Devil was casted out and his place taken, he was cast down to earth. Beloved, this Satan has not been sitting idly, he is so much involved in many things that happens in the world. There are two big pictures in Nebuchadnezzar's dream
1. The four World Kingdom (with the most prominent last King - The Antichrist)
2. The Kingdom of Christ coming to crush the Antichrist and the world kingdom.
Let's start with 2 - Did God foreknow(without actually being the declarer) that some being called Christ will come down to earth and Crush the world kingdom and bring salvation? God forbid! If It be so, Salvation was a coincidence. Here you have it, the part 2 was God's orchestration.
The four kingdoms are not ignorant of Satan's orchestration... That was why Gabriel in chapter 7/8 said to Daniel about some "Princes of the kingdom"... Specifically, Prince of Persia and Prince of Greece... And then he also made mention of Michael as the prince of Israel. Here you have it, Satan's declaration (by God permitted him).... Hahahahahahaha! The writer under the holyghost said " If they had known, they would not have crucified the king of Glory"!!! God looked at him and was more of "Lucifer, you are no match for my Christ. Even with all these you have planned, they will be instrumental for my Big picture!"

2. Romans 8:29

For those whom He foreknew , He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
If God cannot have a Foreknowledge, how can He Foreknow?!
Commentary: To start with, God didn't tell you... It was a human using human terms!
Answer this: Did God foreknow His heirs literally? Did he foreknow the saved ones as 1. Blabber 2. Shade 3. Muttley? God forbid! That would be bias.
God didn't foreknow us individually, he Foreknew us all as "Heirs!" Yea beloved, "Joint heirs with Christ"... There were no literal names, it was a collective something.
Having established that, we should ask ; Who declared that God will redeem mankind through Christ? Who forthtold that Christ would be the firstborn of all HIS SONS? Is it not the Lord God Almighty? Again sir, Declaration/predestination/orchestration precedes foreknowledge.
Is it not logical then that God knows (well, Paul using terms " foreknow" what he has declared/forthtold?
Is it not direct that God knows (if you like use "foreknow" (it doesn't change anything)) His Sons whom he has declared before the foundation of the world? Ha ha, you see?

3. Jeremiah 1:5

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

And before you were born I consecrated you;

I ORDAINED you a prophet to the nation.
Commentary: Smiles... This point actually correlates with my view.
Let's take it one-by-one
God: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you
Question 1: what did God knew him as?
God: Before you were born I CONSECRATED YOU!
Question 2: What is God consecrating him for?
God (Answering my 2 questions): I ORDAINED YOU TO BE A PROPHET.
So What did God know Jeremiah as before he was born? Simple! As the LORD's prophet. Was it declared or foreknown? It was declared!
Before he was born what did God consecrate him for? Simple! To be the LORD'S prophet! Was it declared or foreknown? It was declared!
Ha ha, you see?

God said He knew Jeremiah before he was even conceived. He didn't say "Before you were conceived, a made you..". I don't know what else this can mean other than Gods Foreknowledge.

Read the last Line, God himself answered you.

[/b]4. Romans 11:2

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Here the specific word used is FOREKNEW! How can you then still say God cannot Foreknow the future?
Commentary:[/b] So? Because the word " foreknow" was used, what does that imply? That God knows some nonexistent future? Going by this we can say God has a heart that pumps blood or has a hand with 5 fingers... Ha ha, you see? On a more serious note, refer to the commentary on the second scripture.

5. 1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
According to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. You can't argue against this unless you rewrite the scriptures.
Commentary: We've dusted this before. God declared/forthtold Sons through Christ... Isn't it direct that one knows (if you like use "foreknow" what he has declared?

6. Psalm 139:4

Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O Lord, You know it all .

Even David the king knew about this: except you mean that every word of David was implanted by God (and this will include when David plotted to kill Uriah)
Do you have an explanation against this!?
Commentary: Jesus has an explanation. Christ said " Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks forth"... Before there was a word on David's mouth, it was first in his heart. King David, Shade, And Blabber knows a man's heart is like an open book to the Lord.

7. 1 Samuel 23:10-13
Then David said, “O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has heard for certain that Saul is seeking to come to Keilah to destroy the city on my account. Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.” Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.”
As far as you are concerned, God declared/compelled that David will be betrayed and also declared/compelled that Saul will come down looking for David.
If God cannot know the future saved the one He declared: why ask Him for guidance?[/quote]Commentary: Thou seest the heart of every man, yea! Even the heart of the men of Kilgal and their plans, nothing is hidden but all are all made known to you O LORD...

9. Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
God chose us in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world. Isn't that a Foreknowledge?
Commentary: Check commentary 2...

10. John 6:64

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him .
Please note the word "from the Beginning"! Are you saying that from the beginning God had declared some people not to believe and some to even betray Christ?
Commentary: The Holy spirit through Paul had dusted this in Romans 9...
What shall the lump of clay say to the potter? Why hath thou made me like this? No! It doesn't work that way. Romans 9:19-23

It's not by accident that we say God KNOWS the future!

Without bias and with all consistency with the scripture, I have been graced to give you a satisfactory expositions to the scriptures you posted. All glory to God!
Now ShadeYinka and any interested believer, it's my turn to question the " future exist" doctrine and your turn to answer me.
Should I carry on?

haddeylium:
This love can only be found among Jw

False.

shadeyinka:
Your are completely wrong here about what you think I believe.
There is NO baby factory in heaven and ones existence actually starts in the womb.

Yes. But the problem is, you only know so but yet don't understand the implication. If you actually implemented this in answering the question, we would have landed at a common ground since.

This is a complete misrepresentation of what I believe. I have never insinuated that our preexisting self could have destined anything for itself. This is wrong!
A pre-existing self DOES NOT exist!

Yet you (and everyone that believes a future exist) can never explain how such a person orchestrated/wrote his own script before actually acting them out.

1. You forget that the scriptures were not written by God but by men who write with human terms (according to their understanding of God). Does God have hands, eyes, nose, heart?

If God judges man, could we not assume in human terms that he was angry, disappointed, dissatisfied, hurt, regret etc. These are human terms used to describe God's actions.
2. No human being is guilty UNTIL he has committed a crime. God's Foreknowledge isn't enough reason for God to judge a man.

You will claim "the future is not cast in stones" yet God has an absolute foreknowledge of the future. Whether you like it or not, that statement is contradictory.
From your number 1 point, if only you would take your own pill with your prescription, you would have known "foreknow" , "foreknowledge" and "fore- anything" are human term. Like I told you, God doesn't have tomorrow, next year, later, His realm is NOW! This was what I was trying to show you with the Lamb of God and Christ paradigm.

1. Haven't I told you multiple times that the future is NOT CAST in STONE!?

You said so as a man. But if God knows the future, then if we use God's standpoint, the future is actually cast in stones.
Remember when I asked you if I can Change what ought to happen in years time by my freewill, but you claimed God also saw my change.

The warning of IF is made in the present tense of Prophet Eli. He could have heeded Gods condition AND God would have seen Eli's OBEDIENCE rather than his failure.

I love this. I sensed you have taken a modified position now... From this, the future can be modelled as a dice with six (well, in real time "infinity" possible outcomes.
If not, do you remember you claimed God knows my whole future before I was born, and remember yo claimed God knows every minute details in that future. If so, Even before Saul was born, God foresaw that He (God) would warn Saul but Saul will still Go on to disobey him. So your last statement " God would have foreseen Eli's obedience " will only work if God has a foreknowledge of a dice-modelled future (I.e. God foresees every possible outcome but not the final one)... If not, then the "future exist theology" has failed here.

1. If we are to look literally at this scripture, we should have concluded that God can forget some things only to REMEMBER them at a certain time.
2. Saul is NOT guilty until he has disobeyed a direct instruction.

Number 1 is irrelevant to the discussion. No. 2 is alright with me.

3. Saul could have obeyed the direct instruction from God: and that exactly would have been Gods Foreknowledge of him

No he couldn't. God's foreknowledge (according to you) is perfect and He saw everything even before Saul was born. Again, why then did God warn Saul if he foreknew (even before Saul was born) that Saul will Bleep up.

Num 23:19: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"
The scripture mean that God doesn't make mistakes

No. It means "God doesn't Go back on His words"... Contextually speaking...

In the case of Saul, aren't you saying that God made an error of judgement?

No. Far from it.

Do you now understand that the scriptures was written according to human expression of events.

I wished you would implement this yourself.

Did God know that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit? Then why did He plant it in the middle of the Garden of Eden? Why then did God tell Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the fruit? Why was God then angry when they eat of the fruit?

Adam and Eve are a very interesting subject. Unfortunately, I would prefer not to say anything on them.

It looks like you believe that either God didn't know that they would eat of the fruit OR God declared that they must eat of the fruit!?

I'm saying... A father doesn't put a stealing kid in charge of His treasures and then Beats him up when he himself knew the nature of the child.

The clause "IF" is to show that man determines his future by his own actions. God simply see's whatever the choices that man made for himself. The future is a product of what man has done in the past AND what he does NOW!

If I take you literally, you are subconsciously saying future does not exist. Look at yourself say "God sees whatever choices man MADE for himself"... That's my own stance. You should have said " God sees whatever choices man WILL MAKE for himself ".

Here is another instance where you insinuate that God was in error for choosing Jeroboam to be the king of Israel.

I didn't insinuate that. Read it again.

You forget that sometimes the wicked can be used by God to punish the erring righteous one.

1 Kgs 11:31-32:
"and he said to Jerobo´am, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee: (but he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel"

I said this to you about Hazael. Do you remember? By the way, the punishment does not in any way affect Jeroboam's uprightness or wickedness.

I'm other words, God can fail!?
Can God fail?

No. But Man can fail God.

We can accuse satan of being limited in knowledge this believing that all men has a price.

He will be laughing at this statement (I speak as a man).... He is a spirit! He would have known.

But, do you think God could have LOST His challenge to Satan?

I saw something in Bayern before placing my money on them against Barcelona. You dig?

Did God vouch for David?

It wasn't written. We should not force that notion.

Never once did I insinuate that a Prophet has access to divine time Machine to see what God has not forthtold or permitted. This is another wrong belief system that is clouding your judgement.

I go for essence and essence only. Do you then agree that A prophet ONLY foretells "what God has forthtold or permitted to happen in the future"?

A prophet knows only those things he had been shown: otherwise, they are like anyone of us.

I didn't say otherwise.

No matter what we talk, your misrepresentations always cloud your judgement. I've said it over and over again that you always mix up Foretelling and Forthtelling: @red is another example.

I've been direct from the start. I'm not mixing anything, you are the one with the belief of " Some part are God's foretelling of the future(E.g My eternal destination) and some are God's forthtelling of the future".

If what you will end up doing is already foreknown forthtold, why should God send his prophet to guide/warn you?

Provided I claimed "God forthtells everything", then you have a point. However I said, "God does not forthtell everything!"... So you see now, God DID NOT FORTHTELL ALL WHAT YOU WILL END UP DOING! Your freewill does! Can you now see how freewill comes in and how it fits perfectly?

But don't you see that you have just refused to understand that the future is NOT fixed. The future depends on the past and present actions. God only knows that which you DID (from the eternal past) and this is NOT PREFIXED.

Explain this with an illustration so that I don't end up misunderstanding you again.

How many times will I tell you that the FUTURE is NOT FIXED!

From man's standpoint but not from God. Remember when you said God saw my changes, repentance, going back on my words and all, He has checkmated everything and His foreknowledge is perfect. If we use God's standpoint, then the future is fixed. Or else, be ready to settle with the " God is not omniscient " stance.

Are you saying in other words that God orchestrates a man to commit evil in his name. And such evil is judged as righteousness?

Have you not gotten the memo? Haven't your eyes seen or your ears hear, that not by WORK shall any be saved but by Christ (through which grace and truth came). Haven't you heard? None is righteous, no, not one!
I'm saying we all have an unrestrained shot at Christ's Salvation (Even the likes of Enoch, Abraham, Moses and all needed the blood of Jesus).... That's where it matters. Not your works bro! Your works( righteousness or wickedness) helps you in the reward aspect not salvation aspect.

Once again, negate all the scriptures (as related by me above) that directly says that God has Foreknowledge so that they can rhyme with your belief!

Shadeyinka sir, I will do that this night.

Emusan:
I'll just give you a clue:

1. The fall of Morning star

2. The fall of Adam and Eve

3. The trial of Abraham killing Isaac

You can then read about it in the Bible.


NOTE: I'm not saying, the Father isn't all-knowing!

But let me see whether you will grab my point.

I'm not that much grounded in the Scriptures, i might not grab the point. Perhaps, you can drop the bible verses and give a commentary on them.

Emusan:
Why didn't the all-knowing Father know the action of mortal men he created before happening?

Sir Emusan, do you have a bible verse for this?

eliok:
b4 u rush into children book , have good keywords.
If I give them to you, you will pay.
No more free lunch.
It's 7k

For the niche or for the keyword research?

shadeyinka:
I wish you had first negated the direct scriptures I gave to show you that God has a Foreknowledge of things and people before going to giving your arguments.
........
Once again, negate all the scriptures (as related by me above) that directly says that God has Foreknowledge so that they can rhyme with your belief!

Shadeyinka, you got me wrong on my view of "freewill"...
My view: I believe in freewill and My view infact gives freewill every flexibility it needs.
The only issue is - " I believe, and at the same time try to show you that your view hinders freewill but you don't want to admit. You keep blaming it on my misrepresentation."
I will ask you a series of questions again and you will see I'm right.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Concerning the scriptures you ask me to negate, you will have to bear with me as I'm not really that free to answer them now. However, I definitely will, and after that( provided my explanation is satisfactory to you without bias), I will want you to go back to studying the scripture with a "future does not exist mindset (aside that which has been established to hapoen) and see if it's actually right or not.

shadeyinka:
...

The first mistake and the principal reason for misconception is when many believers fictiously believe that there are some kind of "BABY FACTORIES" in heaven. That's quite wrong because your existence actually starts from the womb. So, there is no way your preexisting self could have destined anything for yourself. Well, this is my account, let me Give you the account of People who interact, talk, operate and Do things in the "future does not exist" reality.
The first on my List is:
1. GOD
Genesis 6:6
"And it repented God that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart"
A foreknowing God would have seen the Mess and would not Go on with... And if He also saw light at the end of the tunnel, then it shouldn't grieve him that He created Man on earth.

1Sam 2:30
"Wherefore the LORD God of Israel said, I said Indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me FOREVER: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me will I honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed."
Refutal: When God foreknew that Eli would cause Him to GO BACK ON HIS WORDS in the future, why did God go ahead to strike a promise with the House of Eli? God was all-about warning Eli to do something about His kids. Do you warn someone when you already foresee that He wouldn't do anything?
Commentary: It delighted God with the House of Eli that He would strike a covenant/promise with His house. Sadly, Eli's son began to introduce something Odd into the Picture. For God's ever abounding mercy, He warned Eli. Why? It was so so so so possible for Eli to have corrected his boys.

1 Sam 15:2-3
"Thus saith the LORD of Hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3. (God Instructing/commanding Saul) Now Go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, Camel and ass.
Rebuttal: Why is God Instructing Saul when He foreknows of His disobedience?
Commentary: God was instructing him because it was totally possible for Saul to Obey! The account of His disobedience does not exist!
You will see that this is very true in the next scriptures
Here was God himself speaking!
1 sam 15:11
" It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned his back from following Me, and hath not performed my commandments! "
Rebuttal: By foreknowledge, God need not to repent/regret. Seeing it already, would it have changed?
Commentary: That was because Saul's obedience/disobedience was undefined! That's the confidence of our free will. That way why God repented/regretted.

Now look at the following scripture and see God using the subjective/undefined word "IF" , and not "When", " After"....
God to Solomon
1 kings 3:14
"And IF you will walk in my ways, to keep my statues and My commandments, as thy father David did walk, THEN I will lengthen your days"
Rebuttal: God should have foreknown Solomon will fall. Why the God-to-son Advice and promise? Why Advise when you foreknow? Why do you warn when you foreknow?
Commentary: Solomon's steadfastness or Apostasy was undefined. Such, God was telling him "Hey, Hey, Hey, you had better walk in my ways, so that I shall delight in you". Why? Solomon's later disobedience was undefined.
God to Jeroboam
1 kings.11:38
" And it shall be, IF you will listen to all that I command you and walk in my ways........."
Rebuttal: The same thing with Solomon. Why did God elect Jeroboam? C'mon has all the men in Israel finished? When you foreknow that Jeroboam won't cut to standards, why pick him?
Then after picking him, why Advise him to Obey and Walk in His ways? Foreknowledge would have Just seen to it that we don't pick Jeroboam and find one that will do well.
Commentary: Jeroboam's Evil/Good ways was undefined and nonexistent (in account), thus the God-to-servant Admonitions and Advise.
I can Go on and on and on, to Jonah, Elijah, many many many many kings of Israel.
Summary: The God you and I worship does not interact, operate, talk, do as if a future exist! Why? Because a future (what will happen in future aside the established exceptions) does not exist!

The second on my List is
2. Lucifer/Devil/Satan/whatever you know him as:
Whether you like it or not, Lucifer knows God far far more than you do. Yet, the same Lucifer thought He had a chance against A God who can use His divine time machine to forward into the future and see results.
If God does that, Lucifer would surely know. Why then did Lucifer Strike a bet with God over Job's obedience/disobedience till the end? Commentary: Lucifer himself knew a future does not exist! That was his confidence and hope in thinking He had a shot at breaking Job and making him Go against God.
II. You remember David counting the census of Israel? Ha ha, I so much believe it was another JOB-like test for David. if so, then that is another instance where Devil and God interaction proved that there is nothing like future. (It turns out Brother David failed though)

The next on my lists
3. Prophets (yea, those same people you believe they some have a divine time Machine to see what God has not forthtold or permitted)
I. You remember the prophet that told a king to shoot arrows.
II. I do hope you've come across many prophets that tell you something about to happen but then use the "IF you do this, bla bla bla will happen"... " IF you don't, bla bla bla will happen "////
If what you will end up doing is already foreknown, why should God send his prophet to guide/warn you? The correct answer is: answer that yourself.
The last on my list is
4. YOU, ME and Everyone Living
No one lives live as though we've destined something for ourselves before coming to earth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You mentioned the case of Peter and Judas. Well I should remind you of Pharaoh (who was raised solely for God to shew his might) and that Blind from Birth man (that was made so, solely for God to manifest himself through Christ!)
What shall we say then, God Orchestrating Pharaoh's action and making a man blind from birth is Evil? God forbid! They all served a purpose in Salvation. Yea, rather than take a foolish shortcut and closeup everything with FOREKNOWLEDGE, you should rather seek to unlock the mysteries that many of them symbolize.
Peter ain't in hellfire, how is God then Evil.
The same Pharaoh you might see in Heaven, How is God then Evil?
The same Judas that repented of His action and have a clear chance at getting saved, how is God then evil?
The blind man probably got saved, how is God then Evil?
Like I said, God is solely concern about you featuring in his Salvation-Bundle than the little little actions that matter now but matter no more later.

eliok:
add pictures. Very important. Like 8- 10 pictures.

Alright. I've been on relationship and other nonfiction niches... I'm thinking on testing out Children's book to see how things will pan out. Please help me out with some proven(profitable and less competitive)Niches on children's Book, I will do the keyword research myself. Thanks.

eliok:
Has anyone been paid this month?

Yeah. 6th month in KDP and all my sales are someone else's KENP royalties.