₦airaland Forum

Emmanystone:
What does Enuma Elish say? Present it here.

What, the entire book? Or a biased summary?

You cannot ask others to learn for you. If you want to know, read it yourself!


Enuma Elish - The first tablet

Emmanystone:
You believe in Anu, what has he done for you? I can begin to count what YHWH has done for me and people around me.

You began this thread by asking a question which many could learn from. Now you've unfortunately steered it into a my god is bigger than your god thread, totally ignoring the evidence presented. Its a pity. Do you really think those with knowledge of Anu on here worship and pray to Anu?

To you others who have something to share, please go on. There are some of us sitting silently at the back ignoring the chaff and learning from you.

godisgood200:
Just like you saw Jesus going into people's homes and asking them how he could be of help to them abi?

No, not quite. But as God supposedly so loved the world that he didn't wait for you all to go begging but allegedly sent him from heaven in the first place.

butterflylion:
When you did not have any contribution towards

1) how you were conceived

2) how you were born........


However none of the above is under your control so I guess there are quite a few very important things that control you and not the other way round.

You appear to fail to comprehend the difference between, being controlled, and, influence.

I have written here that bringing light to the Orolu Kingdom, is my duty. I have even said on another thread that the spirits sent me to go forth bring that light, thereby implying that they control me. The fact is that while it may be said that my thoughts on such things is the source of control, they do not make me do anything and I still choose whether I do what I do or not.

If I were controlled, I could hardly be held responsuble for any of my so called sins!

butterflylion:
You say we do not live forever but that is the crux of all life if we seek for gain or appreciation and do not wish to sing "vanity all is vanity on our death bed when we realise that if we laboured to become billionaires that there has finally come a time when every penny of our billions cannot be offered in exchange for our life and death shows that it cannot be bought and we close our eyes to this world. It's tragic to realise the futility of it all.

Tragic, it may seem, but that is life, or death, so to speak.

butterflylion:
Again when you are dead how can you even imagine a future except if this world isn't all there is. If you see the endless possibilities of the future, this is your subconscious speaking about a future probably after you are gone and you wishing it would be a great one... Probably greater than when you were here but should it matter to you since you say there is no possibility of living forever so why bother?

I choose to bother. I met a world when I arrived and it will still be there long after I am gone. So why should I assume that my existence would be pointless? I bother because I choose to care.

butterflylion:
I wouldn't be responding if I did not understand all you wrote. You do not have to say attention span. I am telling you the reality. Remember we began by talking about how flawed man is? Selfishness is one of such flaws and as such we quickly move on to another benefactor when one passes on and our minds quickly reset to follow and appreciate this new benefactor and in a short span of time, the first benefactor would become forgotten.

You know me from my words, least, the little you know of me, so why claim I cannot know you from yours?

I am sure you would remember your parents long after they are gone, and that your children will remember you long after you are gone. But still, that is not essential. I don't have a desire to be worshipped, so if I am forgotten, c'est la vie!

butterflylion:
The mere fact that you told this story from your past and recounted a notable occurrence like the 1yr old kid shows you appreciated it. We are wired to warm our way towards appreciation and praises and no matter how we pretend to not want it, it is what makes us keep doing what we do to bring smiles to the faces of people. They are our reward. The fact that you talk about those who may have benefited from your labour shows you appreciate it.

I am sure you would agree that if I had been told when I began the project that my reward would come in ten years time in the form of some little girl, hardly able to speak, saying "E, bi, si, di, e, ef, ji", I might have declined the errand claiming "surely that's a rather insufficient reward".

Yet, it would be odd of me to provide the resources I provide without some use made of them. That use, is all the appreciation I require. And trust me, not many know me or of me yet benefit from my effort.

butterflylion:
Look all over nairaland religion section from long ago till date and try and see the pattern of questions and threads opened by totally different people over the years. It has been repeated topics and questions and comments over and over again and that is because many are stuck in this loop and cannot get out. You cannot get out. The fact that there is death triggers a whole lot of things that we cannot break away from no matter how hard we try. Questions get asked and then more questions and even the answers given are also asked more questions on their own because nobody fully understands anything so we are stuck in a rut as it were.

Please be aware that very many have benefited from being here reading you present the same arguments over and over. Great things are being done in your name whether people come back to inform you or not. At least, that is the opinion I have of my being here, which is probably longer than you have been here.

butterflylion:
2) you cannot seek to know you when you are selfish and flawed. You can never truly know you because all you would do would be to take what you selfishly want and appreciate and disregard the rest. What you appreciate and embrace may not be what you should have.

Talk for yourself please! I seek to know to reduce my flawdedness and selfishness. My knowing, for instance, allows me to understand that people believe various diverse things yet there's enough space for us all.

butterflylion:
3) you cannot understand others because they are also flawed and selfish. They would always show you the side they want you to see and not their true selves. How can you say you understand a person when you do not have access to their thoughts? Their thoughts are them as well so without knowing their thoughts then understanding eludes you.

Yet, you understand me, at least, the little I present to you of myself. You are not claiming only you have that ability, or are you?

butterflylion:
Bottom line, if you could have control over every aspect of your life then we would not be having this discussion. This discussion is proof that you have no control.

I have control over quite very many aspects of my life. And to prove my point, I am getting off this loop of yours in this thread.

godisgood200:
Hahahahahahahaha. It means if they need anything from you or you see they have a need, give it to them regarless of what they are. But don't keep their company for their leaven can rub on you and pollut you.

Sounds like one must be very weak and fearful if one has to avoid you least your leaven rub off and pollute one. That would indeed be the case if ones leaven were built on the sort of foundation the winds and the rains could wash away.

With a solid foundation, you could go into their homes, say a joyful "Good morning", keep their company and actually ask them what help you may offer them today, instead of waiting for them to come begging.

Theirs all sorts, I guess.

butterflylion:
If I choose to act dumb I will and if I choose to act super smart I can. It all depends on how bright the light of intelligence shines in those I converse with.

Do note that others too have this power to choose. Even if our choices depend on how bright we ourselves choose to shine.

butterflylion:
How can buda belong to buda when buda never struck a deal with anyone, not even his parents before he was conceived and born. You do not owe your life to yourself because you never had / have any control over it to begin with.

I have not had to strike a deal with anyone or anything. And my life does belong to me. And I do have control over it. And no one, or nothing, has greater control over my life than I have.

butterflylion:
If we were to have the ability to live forever then would we be able to talk about gain or appreciation of our achievements but death itself despite all the toil and labour at what we call gain and appreciation is always a rude shocker same way it was to Solomon when he declared "vanity! All is vanity! We labour for another to reap. If we had the capability of taking all our gains and labour of appreciation with us to the grave (and beyond) then would we be able to boast about gain or any extra value.

Since we apparently do not have the "ability to live forever", the point is rather mute. First, I do not labour in vain! There is no way I write all these words for no reason whatsoever, and I am certain they have an effect. I do not exist to boast about the fact either, and I see no merit in being buried with worldly materials.

butterflylion:
If you knew this then you would not have made the other comment above about gain and appreciation since even here you are seeing the futility of it especially if in this world alone we have hope, wouldn't we, of all men be miserable?

I am not miserable. I am rather exceedingly happy in fact. All I see before me is the endless achievements of the past and the endless possibilities in the future. There is hope, at the very least so why would one be miserable for living in these most interesting of times?

butterflylion:
So you assume. A lot of people suffer from short attention span and would quickly move on to the next helper once you are gone and the next helper would take all the praises and appreciation you thought you would get post humously. I see you repeating vanity, all is vanity a lot. So I ask again, if in this world of pain and torture and death we have hope alone wouldn't it all be vanity upon vanity (as you have kept repeating)?

Please, it must be hard enough for what I actually write to be understood, do stop adding to it unnecessarily. I never said anything about "attention span". Nor do I know this, "world of pain and torture and death" that you refer to. To be honest, if I did see such a world, I can understand that I may need some external superpowerful being to help me get through it, or save me from it. But, you did say, "if", so perhaps you are admitting that the world might not be one of "pain and torture and death", and that might just be how some chose to perceive it.

So lets try the inverse of your 'if world' and try mine. If the world is of joy, and happiness, and life, would it not influence one differently?

I once took a friend with me when I took Light to the Orolu Kingdom. On arrival, my people were like "just give us money so we can eat!", while my friend expected people to be grateful for what we had brought. I asked him, if he had received a letter begging him to bring light. "No", he answered, and asked me why I did it then? "Because it is a proper thing to do", I said, "and it is my duty to do it", I told him, it has nothing to do with a reward, but about increasing the possibilities of individual self realisation.

That however, is not to say I have not been rewarded. One day, I sat outside the building in which I place the light that I bring and the little kids in the neighbourhood came unto me. There was this child, barely a year old, couldn't talk yet, who began rhyming "E, bi, si, di, e, ef, ji" a song I often sing with her older siblings. It was the first reward I had gotten from ten years on the project. And there must be many others who I am not aware of who have benefited from my labour.

My point is, "praises and appreciation", and gratitude are irrelevant. One casts ones seed and those which would be trampled would be trampled, those which will sprout and wither will sprout and wither, and those which will grow into fruit bearing trees will do so of their own accord and not be trampled on nor die.

butterflylion:
Some have found this light you seek. It may not be the kind you seek so tell me what the light you seek looks like or feels like and if this light which you seek wouldn't still be a closed loop of "vanity upon vanity, all is vanity".

I do not quite get this "closed loop" thing you keep referring to, I must admit. I don't find anything closed about what we discuss here. Everytime I return to discussing the same topic, for instance, I find that my understanding has moved on a bit, evolved, so to speak. I can understand how people who resist evolving may not have this experience though, and how their loop might seem closed.

The light I seek is one of understanding. I seek to understand me, others, the world around me and how I may fit into it more effectively. I know that there exists someone somewhere in this universe, who has followed our conversation here and become better off for it. It is vanity alone that would make me consider creating a loop, and closing iI. And it is ignorance alone, that would disable me from realising that there really is no loop except one one creates in ones own mind.

MrPRevailer:
a young man who had suffered 13 years of HIV AIDS received his healing and the symptoms he had been having vanished away instantly. He came out to testify. He was so thin and ribbed but felt refreshed.

This is what makes this sad. There is no way op can have known the "symptoms he had been having", but because he has not seen them, he is claiming they, "vanished away instantly"! Neither could op know how he "felt", yet here he is giving "eyewitness testimony"!

Below is a more eloquent expression of my own sentiments!

allenbaker5:
Bullshit! So you mean we have thousands of people suffering from HIV in Nigeria, people we can access in the different teaching and general hospitals yet we have someone with such amazing powers and we're not using him. Can someone direct this man to a hospital, his "HIV-healing" powers are highly needed

Thank you.

You make wild statements of 'knowledge' with way too much certainty, which you yourself claim one can not have. Or does what you write not include you for some reason?

I have my existence, to begin with. My life is mine, at least as soon as I gained awareness of myself, I, became mine, buda belongs to buda.

The improvements in buda's existence are buda's gains. If I am diligent in class, for instance, I will pass my exams, further my education, get a satisfying job and achieve things, as well as procreate, and provide a decent nest for mine, and perhaps improve my environment. If I seek understanding of myself, my gain is the peace of mind I have from knowing that whilst I walk through the valley of existence itself, there is nothing that I need be fearful of. Or it could be that if I wrote well, that no one would read what I write and dare think of insulting me.

Yes, I may lose it all, like when the company I work for goes bankrupt, or if I had remained paralysed, or when I die. But since my gain from seeking includes the understanding that all things are vanity and don't the buda make, I would have divested myself of such things anyway, so losing all is not possible since I voluntarily gave some away before they could be lost.

For those things I have sought after, I do not store them where they can be lost but in the minds of those in whom they take root, grow, flourish and produce fruit. I tell you with certainty, not one person who reads the words of buda shall not be affected by them forever and ever. Yet, all this is no boast while I live. So why concern myself with boasts when I am dead? Vanity, that's all it is.

My dear friend, if you have the insightfulness I know you are capable of, you would see that I have answered the question, "What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world yet looses his soul?" I am however certain we would have to determine what we both mean by the "loss of one's soul". I might start a thread asking.

As to what I seek for, it is Light. I am who I am and I have chosen the duty of bringing Light to my people.

butterflylion:
How can you speak of gain if you never had anything to begin with? How many who are dead can boast of gain? You can only be diligent if you knew what you were seeking after but do you?

It's like the Bible says, " what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world yet looses his soul".

Where is your gain if in the long run you still loose it?

I don't mind how you define me. I after all do know that you are completely ignorant when it comes to anything about me apart from whatever I tell you about me, so why would I limit myself to your definition of me? Me, who claims to do my own hustling and justling for the space I occupy?

That said, yes, amongst other things that I may happen to be, I am an atheist. Though not the sort who is "against" gods or "just without" gods, but the sort who knows that gods do not exist outside the minds of those who create them, and that they only exist inside the minds of those who have accepted the ideas created in other peoples' minds.

butterflylion:
Your lack of belief system desired a definition so trust man and his nosey nature, he tagged you as atheists and you all embraced it. Here on nairaland a few of us have tried to get you guys to shift from that tag but you all vehemently insisted on being known as atheists (no surprises there).

"we" have tried to tell you that atheism doesn’t translate to against God but just without God.

But you all insist on what you insist so you made the coffee when I wanted tea., why don't you drink it.

butterflylion:
Never will and never can! Like I said its a closed loop. All you would do would be to keep going round in a circle.

I don't mind being diligent in my search for certainty, where it matters to me. The gain is mine in the long run.

butterflylion:
Who says anyone does anything BY THEIRSELVES? Who says we are not being teleguided through subtle prodings and events and conversations which are tailored to drift us to what we should become and not based on our choices.

Nothing is to say so. But lets limit those things to influences. They don't exactly make choices for me. I still apply my ability to reason, I hope.

butterflylion:
Who says our reaction of empathy and care to a poor person was our choice to make and not the choice of something else which also pulls on the strings of the poor man.

I may be influenced in my choosing, but the ultimate choice is mine. I chose, for instance, to be nice and respectful to you (most of the time). I am very capable of insulting you too, as you very well know. I do however think that it is I that prods you to be regarding towards me in our current conversation. And I am very certain I can prod you to be rude towards me too.

It is my choice to be either a bastard or saint, and even to determine if others are bastardly or saintly towards me. I tend to reap pretty much what I sow, I guess.

butterflylion:
Who says where you say you hustle and justle to make space for yourself wasn't your space to begin with and your hustling and justling was part of the preparation process for you to be a better fit for that space?

The space was waiting for me and I just had to fit into it? Sounds like predestination to me. But that's ok, though I have nothing to indicate that a place is made ready for me to fit into it. Like I said, my current 'place' is to regard you. It turns on the proverbial sixpence. I can very easily chose otherwise, to hustle and justle to be a bastard, so to speak, and even to determine if you are to be bastardly or saintly towards me.

butterflylion:
Never will and never can! Like I said its a closed loop. All you would do would be to keep going round in a circle.

Surely one can be certain of some things. You and I have been here before, I think.

I am certain that after I post this particular post, there will be a point in time in the future where you will read it, breath in and breath out a few times, after which you are very likely to post a response, quoting or at the least referencing the exact words or some thereof, that I am currently writing, which by the time you get to this! particular point would be it the past, even moreso by now.

I am certain of what I have written above. Are you saying, 'one can never be certain at all'?

butterflylion:
These are the lies we tell ourselves in order to fit in. We are not entirely who we seem yet we still try to sell this lie to each other. We are not rectangles or triangles but presume to be when indeed we are squares. Until we know who we are and where we are going we cannot know what to do with us and how to get to where we are meant to be.

Who then tells us what we seek? Still flawed humanity?

There is no place that anyone is meant to be. Nowhere is reserved for anyone. We justle and hustle to make space for ourselves.

No one tells 'us' what we seek! Or rather, some may have been told what they should be seeking, but most of us chose what we want to seek by our selves.

shadeyinka:
All human beings are selfish.

It is a disease we all have to a small or large extent.

Its nice charting with you bro!

And with you too. Thank you for your patience.

butterflylion:
That's my entire point. It's a closed loop. Our source, interim and end is unfathomable by us on our own because we were not there at the beginning and can never see tomorrow. All we know is now and now is not enough when wanting to know as a certainty.

So I say, "I don't know", regarding the beginning i know nothing about.

And I say "perhaps", about tomorrow, though I am much less uncertain about that. I for instance know I will eat a leg of lamb tomorrow. I know this because it is my plan to eat a leg of lamb tomorrow. I even went to the shop yesterday and bought the leg of lamb and put it in the fridge. And it is still there.

I think I know a bit about tomorrow, wouldn't you agree. I know for certain for instance that you will very likely post on here tomorrow!

butterflylion:
Who then would tell you if your answers are right or wrong when the responsibility is yours and you are flawed?

I would understand that I might be flawed, and that others too might be as flawed as I am. And so, keep seeking until I am more certain.

butterflylion:
It's a closed loop. Our flawed humanity would never scrutinise outside of self and outside of that which appeals to our selfish desires and leanings of comfort.

You must agree that not all that is pleasant or sweet is good for us.

None of us knows anything except we are told. Nothing just pops up as a thought or an impression. Who holds the answers to these thoughts and impressions? You? Me? Another flawed human?

I hold the responsibility to find answers to my thoughts and impressions. And I should use all my means to seek for them, flawed as I may be.

butterflylion:
These are the lies we tell ourselves in order to fit in. We are not entirely who we seem yet we still try to sell this lie to each other. We are not rectangles or triangles but presume to be when indeed we are squares. Until we know who we are and where we are going we cannot know what to do with us and how to get to where we are meant to be.

Who then tells us what we seek? Still flawed humanity?

On the assumption that we seek anything at all, Who then tells us what we seek?

shadeyinka:
I think you mean that Christians are arrogant.

No. People are arrogant. A lot of people are, anyway.

butterflylion:
An original square can make itself into a triangle through the rigours and torment passed through via experiences and can force itself to be in the place meant for a rectangle and not even a triangle while telling itself that after all what matters is that the base fits and not all the form.

The rest I wish to say has been said on my last post.

My immediate response would be, how does an "original square....make itself into a triangle"? Is that even possible?

But not I think I don't at all understand what you wrote there.

butterflylion:
How do we know we have arrived if not told?

We check for ourselves, perhaps, and subject what we are told to in-depth scrutiny? Or are you suggesting we should just accept what we are told?

shadeyinka:
I understand your point. However, I think Christians as part of the human species have submitted themselves to God as " helpless sinners" who need cleansing and restoration. I cannot speak for the rest of the world who don't see themselves as sick.

But I still agree verycmuch with you. If only each one of us can make the world a better place within our sphere of influence as Jesus taught (love your neighbor as your selves) this world would have been a paradise.

Unfortunately, even the children of the light are as much guilty as the world.

Well, till we die and our exam script is marked, I guess we can expect this imperfections in Christians

I do not "think Christians as part of the human species have submitted themselves to God as helpless sinners who need cleansing and restoration".

In fact, Christians, tend not to see themselves as sick since they believe they, in particular, have been cleansed and restored through the redemptive blood of Christ. It is the non-believer who appears sick, dirty and damned, to them I'd say. Though just as much as the believer appears sick, dirty and damned to the non-believer. The salt is not salty on either side.

butterflylion:
What I am saying is that EVERYONE is restricted INCLUDING the so called freethinker.

Trying to shift this to religion and tradition isn't what your OP is about is it?

Thread is about whatever is said in it. Answer the question!

rinrin23:
A cage is something that confines (keeps or restricts someone or something within certain limits). In this case you said mental cage, doesn't religion/tradition etc restrict your thinking within certain limits? Or is it freethinking that does this?

butterflylion:
The individual determines what his "boundaries" are and would individually know when he or she breaks it.

So, if I break boundaries, what exactly is the problem? Is that not what a freethinker claims they do, break boundaries, whoever's they may be?

butterflylion:
I did not define freethinking. My comment was not as a definition but a focus on man and how we walk around in a mental cage while assuming we are free.

Nobody as a so called freethinker can be definite about anything since reason is always logically thrashed and logic itself can be infinite.

So where do they draw the line since they have allegedly "broken the boundaries" as it were.

There are some who completely abandon reason and logic and who are not open to the views held by others. and who claim that what they know, is.

There are some also on here who take the stance you profess, "not definite about somethings anything since reason is always logically thrashed and logic itself can be infinite".

My question however is, what are these so called, boundaries?

[img]https://intelligentchristianfaith.files./2017/03/yourenotafreethinkerif.png[/img]

butterflylion:
The greed,selfishness, hatred, anger, spite, and other vices in man cannot enable us to set ourselves free through freethought. This is a huge farce.

That's an odd definition of Freethinking!¿

Consider wiki below.



Freethought (or "free thought" ) is a philosophical viewpoint which holds that positions regarding truth should be formed on the basis of logic, reason, and empiricism, rather than authority, tradition, revelation, or other dogma. In particular, freethought is strongly tied with rejection of traditional social or religious belief systems. The cognitive application of freethought is known as "freethinking", and practitioners of freethought are known as "freethinkers". The term first came into use in the 17th century in order to indicate people who inquired into the basis of traditional religious beliefs.

shadeyinka:
I had an impression you were an atheist and as such didn't believe in the supernaturals.

I am known to take the philosophical atheistic stance of gods (fairies, angels, ghosts, moving cranes and flowers etc) do not exist, and refer to my self as an atheist. However, that is not all that I am.

shadeyinka:
Now here again, I got confused.
Its like you're saying that your " miracle healing " was because of the doctors and not through the image of the flowers as you described it. ...I'm confused.

My miracle healing was because of "the doctors" and the crane, and "the image of the flowers", and the people who said "Amen" to my arrogant prayer, and my mothers tears, and even me, who was able to hear imaginary voices, and my desire to allow them all work on me so I could walk again.

shadeyinka:
The church is like a massive hospital where the inmates are the Christians. They have different form of illnesses at different stages of healing and spiritual maladies. So, you can understand that each Christian have his/her weakness, biases, excesses etc. Till we exit this world (discharged from this hospital), it will remain so.

"The society of human beings church is like a massive hospital where the inmates are the people Christians. They have different forms of illnesses at different stages of healing and spiritual maladies. So, you can understand that each person has Christian have his/her weakness, biases, excesses etc. Till we exit this world (discharged from this hospital), it will remain so."

And if only people understood that everyone has "different forms of illnesses at different stages of healing and spiritual maladies" and that each one of us has "his/her weakness, biases, excesses etc", perhaps we wouldn't have to die and exit this world to stop making it hell. Perhaps if we understood that we are all humans, before anything else, we could create a better world while we are alive and live eternally. Just perhaps.

butterflylion:
You exist as an atheist simply because God exists.

Even here on nairaland it confirms itself. Atheists do nothing but talk about God all day every day yet they say he does not exist. Any Christian that opens any thread about God trust the atheist vultures to fly to it as always

You guys cannot do without God!

Edited from original by buda

What do you think atheist? Is op right?

P.s. No ignoring aloud!

butterflylion:
The very definition of atheism says you are wrong. You exist as an atheist simply because God exists.

Even here on nairaland it confirms itself. Atheists do nothing but talk about God all day every day yet they say he does not exist. Any Christian that opens any thread about God trust the atheist vultures to fly to it as always

You guys cannot do without God!

True, we 'atheists' "cannot do without God". Our entire existence evolves around God. Yet, we are not exactly "atheists", which is a labels you stick on us and which we adopt for convenience. Much more than atheists or theists, we are all human beings. A fact we very easily forgot, it would seem.

There's a thread about labels, hopefulLandlord, could you pull it up please. We need our Gods to educate us.

This thread is funnily turning into a



As we've said, we are not lonely. If your god says Don't keep company with atheists, then so be it. We can do without your god, how much less you! I'm sure we'd survive.