₦airaland Forum

W.F Kumuyi is one of the few visible G.O I really like and respect. Spent 13 yes @ DLBC and most of the ideals and values I imbibed in life, I got there.

I still feel a breathe of fresh air when I hear his voice and always look forward to the Monday bible study outline and Christian women mirror. The members just need to work more on extending love to their neighbors particularly those we call sinners

Wish Kumuyi the best.

Ihedinobi: Does contentedness apply to large quantities too? If a rich man drives a Porsche, is he being modest?

Why not my bro? He can surely. It's modesty but pastors are called fathers in the lord abi? How will you and I feel if our father has money to spend on luxuries but can't seem to take our physical welfare seriously?

Remember the church is a family right?

Ihedinobi: And I've heard this argument that "there is no place in the NT where anyone was either instructed to pay tithes or that anyone did" and it has been offered severally as justification for the validity of the non-tithing position. But, that is an argument from silence. That it wasn't recorded didn't necessarily mean that it had been tithing had been annulled. It could simply mean that it was taken for granted or swallowed into a more comprehensive doctrine. To demonstrate the difficulty of that position, let me ask you, can you produce any NT Scripture that specifically nullified tithing, a Scripture that does not offer ambiguity in interpretation?

Weldone bro. I must say this thread has helped me understand some things better how delicate ministry finance is. I however have some enquiry with respect to the above quote from your write up.

1. With our knowledge of Jewish laws and customs, can we confidently say Jesus collected tithes as part of contributions to his ministry?

2. Can we also confidently say the apostles including Paul who were all Jewish collected tithes from people when their is no record of them being from the tribe of Levi?

3. If the apostles didn't collect tithes, it follows that NO early christian paid tithes. Then won't it be correct to agree with Catholic records which show that tithes only came into Christianity @ a council in 585AD?

I'm all for catering for ministers of the gospel. Paul and the other apostles received support. Whether its a structured salary or having their bills picked by the church makes no difference to me as long as their needs are met. What I believe we should watch is greed and I believe our Lord and the apostles will agree.

Image123: @ Candour
It will do you a world of good to stop being sentimental and focus on the thread. The thread is about ministers and their pay, should they be paid, is there biblical reasons or tangible discussions why they should be paid etc. It is not about oscillating and obssessing on Oyedepo.

Good. A nice advice for both of us.

I'm happy you went back to the purpose of the thread because you and I are both guilty of derailing. Check all my posts, I Never said support shouldn't be given to ministers whether by salary or by allowances and gifts.

Cheers

Image123: Jo is so on point. How on earth or heaven will anyone ever say that true gospel work will NEVER pay as secular pursuits? Is there any bible verse that says that or this is just a man's idea as usual? Is this not tantamount to taking gain as a standard of godliness? Anyways, its not by argument, everybody will forever have points.

2 Corinthians 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.

That's because you see ministry as a means of gain. The verse you quoted, did Paul say he built up a financial empire from it? He collected wages from churches, yet he was naked and hungry often, why was that?

The man lived a life of selflessness because he knew ministry came with responsibilities unlike the money grabbers of today. Peter and the others were catered for by the church but I doubt you'll be able to say they became rich by it.

A minister should lead by example and if he wants to build a loving and selfless congregation, he has to lead the way. This will make it impossible for a true minister to accumulate wealth if he has to be true to his calling of care for the flock. This is the reason despite all Paul got, he never got rich with it because he always shared.

Christians are expected to be modest and contented, how much more a minister of the gospel? If you see nothing wrong in a pastor living in obscene opulence when some members of his congregation are struggling to make ends meet, then there is something wrong with your value system brother.

Joagbaje: Not at all . If you give tithes ,it's between you and God. I give mine

i'm happy for you then

cheers

Joagbaje: All these will soon end in tithing .

Bro Jo, this your pepper body about tithe is becoming very unbecoming o .......are you scared or something?

nlMediator: You keep shifting the goal post. Were Samuel's or Eli's children priests? The simple point you need to address is whether Samuel, Eli, Moses and Co. were poor or different in any way from their "mates" in the secular world. Their children do not come into the discussion. Otherwise, we should also ask about the children of Elijah, Elisha and others you mentioned.

My bro, read the references i gave you. Samuel and Eli's children were priests who were not content with 'small offerings' but devised means to get more and in the process earned rebuke from God. My bro, the bible didn't compare them with their mates but while they obviously had their needs catered for, there is nothing to show they lived a life of Opulence. Infact Elijah was fed by birds and a widow? Is that an example of a man who had everything going well for him? Elisha was housed by the woman of Shunem, If he had a big house would he need that particular hospitality?

Also, I gave a hypo and was not talking about a real friend. And all of us should count ourselves happy that God called us into His kingdom. Based on that, christians in Mobil should live less than the unbelivers in Mobil, going by your logic. But I've not heard you say that. We all agree that the needs of ministers should be met, just as God met the needs of the tribe of Levi. What is problematic is your definition of "needs." Owning a house is not a need for a pastor, but it is a need for the brother in Mobil. Same with owning a car. Again, one more time, you've not been able to provide one scriptural verse that says that ministers should live a poorer life than other christians, especially when it comes to owning the essentials of (modern) life.

You keep trying to draw words out of my mouth. see what i said ' true gospel stewardship WILL NEVER pay as much as secular pursuits' I never said owning a house or a car was a crime for a pastor. Even the couple i used as an example who run an orphanage have a house they keep the kids. What i maintain is that a minister should be an example of contentment. Why should a true minister called by God be regretting that his friend has moved ahead of him? we brought nothing into this world and it's certain we are taking nothing out so says the bible so why the fuss? Even you and i as church members should learn contentment and modesty. We shouldn't be trying to match the world. We have a better place to aspire to unless we do not really know what we believed. Not all things are expedient for us as Christians even if you can afford it. It's called TEMPERANCE and it's one of the fruits of the spirit. Let us learn to bridle our tastes and i tell you a pastor needs to bridle his even more because he's meant to be an example to you and i

nlMediator: I don't know much about Prince or very much about Oyedepo. But as far as I know, Joel Osteen lives a very simple life. He dresses well but not that expensively. He drives his father's former car (Lexus). He owns one house he lives in and he mentioned that he was feeling guilty about buying an investment property but God told him there was no problem. You don't see him in the social (party) circuit with the high rollers. So, to you, somebody that controls a ministry with an income of more than $100 million is amassing personal wealth by living in one house and investing in another property?

That is a nice information you just relayed about Osteen and i must confess that i'm impressed and indeed touched. Now my bro, that is a worthy example for you and i and other pastors if truly Osteen lives a frugal and simple lifestyle. This is the koko of what i've been trying to pass across. The fact that somebody controls a million dollar ministry should not be a license to indulge. Good you didn't try to make a case for Oyedepo because a pastor in a poor country like Nigeria owing 4 private jets amongst other paraphernalia of gross conspicuous consumption is a wicked and cruel example for the gospel of Jesus.

Now i admit you wont find a verse that says 'thou shalt not buy things' but a MOG living in obscene opulence in the midst of grinding poverty in the land runs contrary to everything Christ and the apostles stood for. Christ always made a case for the poor to be taken care of. The apostles encouraged collections to be made for the poor. God in the old testament instituted the TITHE to take care of Levites, widows, orphans, strangers and other less privileged people. What are our extremely wealthy MOG doing to alleviate poverty even in their own ministries? Rather you see them keep collecting and collecting like they would drop dead the minute they stop. I tell you dear bro, It's only a very greedy and wicked pastor that does that and they abound all over our country.

I love this piece.

It's important that we Christians take heed how we emphasize some things in Christianity to the detriment of the Others. The word of faith movement overemphasizes SELF RIGHTS and PROSPERITY to the point of creating Narcissistic Christians who idolize mammon and the things it can procure with little regard for their neighbor. The holiness movement overemphasizes outward SHOW OF PIETY to the point of creating zombies who must live by a rule book hence the practice to seek authority clearance on almost every aspect of their lives.

However, you can never go wrong in emphasizing the beauty of the cross and how it created an access road to the father without the need for an earthly intermediary. The cross and it's true message of salvation is what we should emphasize and all other things will surely fall into place.

God bless the author and you the OP.

'The church started in Jerusalem as a movement.......Got to Rome and became an institution..........spread all over Europe and became a culture...........landed in America and became an industry....a very BIG INDUSTRY but the Head of the church is coming back for the movement.'

Saw the above somewhere on the net. Just thought i should share it because it's the American version that is spreading like wild fire all over Nigeria and trying to drown the voice of the true Gospel.

nlMediator: You're right that people giving to ministers is even better than salary. That's why I don't understand what the fuss is about. Do people realize that virtually none of the big ministers of today - be it Oyedepo, Osteen, Prince - receive a salary? And they are even richer than when they did.

However, I disagree with you that because the Apostles did not receive a salary, it becomes a standard for us to follow today. We're bound by Scriptures, not examples that were informed by the context of their existence. Neither Jesus nor Paul married. Why are you not insisting that ministers not marry? Oh, I forgot some christians already do. It's called the Catholic Church. And neither Jesus nor some of the early apostles received formal education. So, why not discourage formal training for ministers or even formal education beyond elementary schooll? Oh, some christians already do. It's called the Amish.

Contentment is the key bro. Contentment! Contentment!! Contentment!!!

The way the MOG you mentioned above amass material things will almost make an ungrounded person suspect there is no place called heaven. I mean if we are eager to be with the Lord, why the craze to acquire things and more things and more things? It's simple: They lack any fiber of contentment in their body and souls.

1John 2:15
'Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the father is not in him.'

nlMediator: No, the examples you gave do not work. I asked for scriptures - chapter and verse that support the idea that a minister's life outcomes should be different from that of the congregation. You did not provide any, because you have none. Instead, you choose to sensationalize things. The prophets you mentioned had their assignment, and executed it accordingly. That does not in any way suggest that in the OT, all ministers were like Elijah. A more appropriate example would be the priests (and the levites). Was Samuel poor? Were Eli's kids destitute while their neighbors were riding horses? Was Moses poor or living differently from the rest of the Israelites? Besides, our Lord Jesus made clear that His ministry was different from John the Baptist's, which was modelled after Elijah's. He did not live in the bush, dress differently or eat locusts and wild honey. For you to use an example even Jesus did not follow shows how off the mark you are on this issue. Saying that the Apostles died horrific deaths is meaningless in the context of this discussion. The issue is daily living, not manner of death. What makes you think that a guy that rides a BMW cannot die for Jesus, but the guy that owns a bicycle or beetle can? Again, ministry involves sacrifice - nobody is disputing that. The problem is that you're the one defining the sacrifice, not the Lord, not the Bible. Apart from the apostles, can you show me other ministers in the Bible that died the same way? Why didn't all the ministers that succeeded them in the early days of the Church die similarly? Because, they understood everybody has his call. They suffered in their own way. Ministers today suffer in their own way. That suffering does not ALWAYS mean being different from the congregation simply because you accepted the call of God.

Incase you do not know, Eli and Samuel's kids you claim were not destitutes are the exact examples of the Charlatans in Christianity today because They were very corrupt. Read 1Sam 2:12-17 to get the gist of Eli's sons which was so bad that God had to get them killed in battle. Read 1Sam 8:1-3 to get the gist of Samuel's sons. infact i'll quote verse 3 here

1Sam 8:3
'And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgement'

From this verse you can make the following deductions
1. Samuel was a honest servant of God who was content with having his needs met
2. His sons were crooks who saw service to God as a means to enrich themselves

Now which of the examples above will you recommend as standard for your ministers today? Any minister of the gospel not content with having his needs met but instead wants to compete with the high fliers in society is a crook and a thief and will inevitably devise schemes to fleece his flock like the children of Eli and Samuel.

No matter how you see it, true gospel stewardship WILL NEVER pay as much as secular pursuits. Christ our Lord did not have cash stored up. The bag Judas kept was nearly empty most times because he too like most pastors today saw the office as one to loot. Our Lord's needs were met whenever they arose like when a fish provided money for tax and that is what the Lord expects of us Christians and i dare say much more of his ministers.

God established the right model for ministry in the OT. And Paul adopted it in the Scriptures. That is: the tribe of Levi would not get any land. So they can be poor or different? No, so they would not be distracted. To ensure that they were not deprived economically because of the absence of an important factor of production - land - God arranged for their financial upkeep. Paul made clear that's how it should be. Those arguing differently are doing so out of emotions and human traditions. Not Scriptures.

The Levites were mandated not to get any land which is a deprivation on its own. The Lord provided 10% for them which was enough to meet there needs particularly when you remember they had to share this 10% with the widows, orphans, Strangers and other needy people in Isreal. No one here has said ministers should not get support from their congregations, at least i NEVER SAID that. what i oppose is you saying your friend who went into the ministry deserves everything that your friend who took a secular job got. You mentioned houses, cars, luxuries etc. The gospel is NOT a business. Your pastor friend should be happy God counted him worthy of a place in the vineyard instead of lamenting about the material things he's missing. God promised to meet needs, he didn't promise a chateau or golden chariots. If he's regretting, he should check; maybe God didn't call him after all.

nlMediator: ^^

First of all, I should have made clear that the 2 people in my story were classmates - read the same course, the same year and in the same school. So, theoretically, their chances in life should be similar. Sure, ministry is sacrifice. But what we're discussing here does not negate sacrifice. It is sacrificial enough that the minister fasts several days a week while his friends are feasting on lobster and steak; it is sacrificial enough that the minister misses a whole lot of family events because he has to attend to the various needs of the congregation; it is a lot of sacrifice to devote countless hours, including constantly studying tons of material and picking up the phone at midnight to address a terrible situation that just arose relating to the church or its members. Granted, some ministers sacrifice more than the others, based on the nature of their asignment. However, ministry sacrifice does not necessarily mean you cannot own a house and that only the engineers at Mobil and similarly employed people should. Can you show me ONE place in the Bible where it says that if you choose to answer the call of God, you and your family forfeit all or most opportunities open to other christians? You are only creating your own picture of a ministry lifestyle and expectation that have no Biblical foundation, but only based on human traditions. What is happening is that some are condemning ministers to a life of poverty and penury because of the excesses of other ministers. That is as wrong as using the excess lifestyle as a yardstick for what a church should provide for its pastor. Both extremes are wrong.

And what you forgot to mention about people that study different courses is that while the Education student is expected to make less money than the Finance major, there are lots of educators (and graduates of less-lucrative courses) who through dint of hard work, proper investment and even wise inventions have become millionaires and much richer than the doctors, lawyers and bankers. But in your ministry example, the pastor no matter what he does cannot change his financial fortunes. Yet, every other person, including the teacher can. Again, can you show me where the Bible says that?

My bro, we have the apostles and our Lord as examples in Scriptures and even the prophets of the old testament as examples. Can you point to one that had a smooth ride? have you read Foxe's book of martyrs to see how all the apostles ended their lives? What about Hosea who was forced to marry a prostitute and live with the stigma? how many chariots did Elisha, Elijah, Jeremiah etc have? My bro, If we have to go by the life our forbears of ministry lived, we will find it hard to refer to pastors of today as men of God. Pls hope you dont see Solomon, David in the same mold as Elijah or Elisha?

No matter how we look at it, the service in the vineyard of the Most High God comes with peril, deprivations, etc and that is the truth. The work of the ministry is not a pathway to gain and profit. Paul said as much to Timothy in 1Tim 6:5. Paul described it as the life of a soldier because that is what it is. We Christians must endeavor not to allow our ministers become destitute of resources but a pastor who is called into ministry must be ready to tread a rough road if he accepts it.

@ the bolded, Why can't he change his fortunes if he is opportuned? but saying the congregation or ministry owe him a similar lifestyle to that of the rich elite of his congregation is a totally wrong statement. If it's just a question of meeting needs, it wont be a problem but when our ministers now try to measure the quality of life they live by the number of cars or houses they own thereby competing with the rich elite in their congregation, then i am afraid they've missed it.

This isn't a picture i created bro. It's the reality of the life of a worker in the vineyard and examples abound all over the bible if you'll look for it.

nlMediator: This is what I've not been able to understand all these years. Two guys graduate from school. One gets a good job that assures a good living for himself and his family. The other hears and heeds the call of God to go into ministry. The non-minister buys cars for himself and his wife, builds houses in the city and the village, sends his kids to decent schools. His kids graduate and live a good life, while serving God, like their parents. The minister struggles to pay his house rent. He manages an old car with his wife. He has no house anywhere. His kids go to terrible schools and eventually end up in some low-skilled trade. Their life is hard, financially. They see their father's classmate and children and resent the path their minister father chose. They hate the ministry. In fact, their parents almost regret answering the call. "WE" run out good people from ministry and turn around to complain that charlatans run the church. Lord have mercy!

i'm not sure it's as straightforward as you outlined there. Even in the secular world, there are some courses you do'nt willingly go into if plenty money to meet all wants and needs is your goal. Take a trip to JAMB office or data base and count how many students fill for Education or single honors courses. The reason is simple: You have a lesser chance of 'making it' teaching than say practicing medicine. Hence a student who feels led to go into Teaching will have prepared his mind beforehand to weather plenty storms and would most likely be propelled forward by the overriding desire to make a difference in the lives of his/her pupils than enjoy affluence.

My bro, the Spirit that pushes a person into Christian ministry is even expected to be more selfless than the one that leads someone into teaching. I repeat a Christian who answers the call to ministry and expects to live a life comparative to the engineer in Mobil has lost his vision before it's even started. Every man's desire is to assure a good life for his family and we Christians owe it to help true ministers(a lot of fakes abound) achieve some semblance of a respectful life but every minister truly called by God would have been told he wont have a rose petaled pathway.

My mum in law visits orphanages at a set time every year to share with them. She visited one this year somewhere in the North and told me she shed tears. Not so much for the orphans but for the young couple who have made it their life mission to bring succor to children on the fringes of society. this couple abandoned what could have been promising careers to relocate to a remote village in plateau state because they felt the call of God to do so. What touched MIL was the serenity she saw about them as if they had everything they ever dreamed of. They've been at it for some years and have seen some of their wards proceed to Rochas Okorocha's free school in Jos. When asked for what they need, the only request was a small bus to help with transportation. While we don't expect every minister to be like this couple, Pls it will be nice we stop comparing ministry to secular jobs. They are oceans apart.

The thieves in Christianity today didn't become thieves because of Poor remuneration. It's like condoning a corrupt civil servant because civil service pay is poor. That is flawed logic.

God2man: We must take care of ministers of God, it is a curse if we do not care about them.
Infact there is no need for pressurizing any member to do this, the members will have no choice than to take care of the ministers because of the blessings, breakthrough, deliverance they have received under their ministrations.

However, the minister must also be in a position to help his members finacially, spiritually and otherwise.

Like priest, like members.


God bless you.
God2man.

My brother, pls stop mouthing the bolded. Curse on a Christian for whom Christ shed his blood? because he didn't give money to his pastor? Can you support that with a bible verse?

Pls let us not twist the bible to support a cause we believe to be noble; it ends up corrupting the nobility of the cause.

Christians are encouraged to share but there is NO curse whatsoever for refusing to

If he did it because he thinks it'll make him more holy and acceptable before God, it is an unwise self righteous move. However if the Spirit of God led him to it, God will surely give him the grace to pull through and even provide a soft landing for him to mitigate the effect of putting his life in reverse gear so to speak. This is because if the Spirit is involved, there is a bigger picture which we all might not be privy to.

The way restitution is preached sometimes almost makes it look like you and God are in a joint venture to pay for your sins. Like God foots 55% of the sin bill and the Christian picks the remaining 45%.

Your salvation is free and total and not contingent on any act of yours save believe the Gospel that Christ died in your place and gifted you his righteousness.

This is the gospel that truly liberates

Femsyn: Now, I am a xtian and all I have seen here are pure sentiments and selfish comments. One question, is any of the self-styled pastors richer than the Arabs? Imams don't indulge in jets, not because they are poor, but because the founding rules of Islam doesn't support it. Again, in xtianity, u have CEOs (otherwise known as General Overseers) who control the strings of branches worldwide, all in the name of being the founder/pioneer; Hence, they are allowed to do anything with the returns. The few doctrines in Islam doesn't have an absolute leader who calls the shots, cos' a variant of Islam, like NASFAT and co. wasn't formed by an individual, but a group of people. The modus operandi of these two religions are wide apart.

Correct.

This post has a lot of truth in it.

Joagbaje: Many times a pastor himself is victim in the hands of some of these people

Late Boma Erekosima, a pigin english newscaster at Radio Rivers in the Eighties and Nineties used to render this proverb 'If dog bite you once, the dog dey craze, but if e bite you a second time, brother na you dey mad o'

Joagbaje, you theory would have been ok if It's just one or two persons. The article talked about a series of affairs with a penchant for cover-up.......hmmm my bro, i say mba nu to your post. Even if dem dey follow the man from village, na only him dey abuja? haba.

If he's a victim, wisdom would have made him limit his dealings with the opposite sex particularly whenever his wife is not around him. Flee all appearances of evil Peter the apostle warned. Did they omit that part from his bible?

......But our Christianity needs to rise above this carnality and obsession with buildings and what toilets and church seats should look like.
These are all cool and I’d always be likely to worship in a church that pays attention to all these but at the end of the day, this is not what Christianity is about. Our faith is about Christ and we were called Christians at Antioch for the first time not because of how beautiful our churches looked or how well our pastors/apostles spoke, it was because of our Christ-like attitude. Is this what the Nigerian church is about today or should we forget this question was ever asked?

An excellently written article. Wish all of us can take time to ruminate on the quote above. Maybe it will start help start our journey back to the foot of the cross.

God bless

Bidam: You love overblowing issues out of proportions, can you back your statements with facts?

would i be wrong if i say you need comprehension classes? have you heard of hypothetical scenarios before? Did you read me say it was a live example?

You know i dont shy away from giving live examples if i have to.

My dear you talk too much sometimes. learn to exercise restraint.....none can quote your silence

The men of Sodom came with the intention of 'knowing' the angels and Lot offered his daughters. It is obvious that he intended using his daughters to serve the purposes the men of Sodom needed the angels for. Now what would they have done to Lot's daughters if they had accepted Lot's offer? Interview them? are we to assume that the men of Sodom were so dumb that they could use intimacy inter-changeably with interview? C'mon. Lot asked them not to do this wicked thing. what could be wicked about an interview?

Are we to believe Lot took them for Spies (He didn't know they were angels i'm sure we all know) and was trying to cover up for them and help them search out and destroy the city that had given him prosperity in the first place? Otherwise why would he ask the men of Sodom not to this wicked thing? what was he saving them from? death or intimate molestation?

This is a poor attempt at looking for loopholes in scripture to justify homosexuality. I know the issue of homosexuality is a touchy point but trying to turn the story of Sodom and Gomorrah on its head to support this position is plain dishonesty.

My judgement: Hogwash

christemmbassey: @Candour, u dey argue collection of tithes with Bidam n Image? Na wa to u o, u sabi say tithes na oyel well ? No let prophet Bidam see vision 4 u o, I dey tae u o.

My bro, we no dey argue o....na reason we dey reason together.

cheers

@Ihedinobi, beautiful thread indeed.

Paul received from some of his churches to meet his needs, not build up wealth to appear in a rich list somewhere. He could have made enough to buy himself a ship, build a chateau or have the best chariot and litter but he didn't. The man would rather pay for the needs of those that were with him like he told the Ephesian elders than pile up the cash. That is selflessness and that is the least expected of a steward of the gospel. A businessman is in business to make money, i dont think any sane Christian will say the same applies to a pastor. The gospel work comes with a great cost and great deprivations.

What has changed now that makes a MOG look up to match the lifestyle of the music and football superstars in their Conspicuous Consumption rather than imitate those who risked life and limb to bring the gospel to our fathers in Africa? think about it

The gospel is not a means to make money. If you want to make money, stick to secular pursuits.

Pastors should receive from their flock but please, don't build a business on it. The sanctity of the pulpit is corrupted when they do and that is why crooks, rapists, murderers even native doctors feel so much at ease preaching and enjoying the tag of a pastor. It has become an all comers affair. Just have the charisma and you're ready to go.

If a pastor is honest, he should know the difference between meeting needs and gratifying obscene hedonistic desires

Ihedinobi: As for any arguments about what a minister of the Gospel is entitled to, I'll be available at the link I invited desbosky to. Here I will emphasize simply that regardless what percentage each believer might favor, every believer is "obliged" to provide for those who serve them spiritually and the poor brethren.

By "obliged" I mean that that is what is normal to a believer to do. It is an anomaly to find any believer who would not open his hands to these two groups of people.

By poor brethren I mean such believers as suffer lack. This does not include some random beggar or orphanage or needy people of all kinds. This is strictly family amd particularly local family. In the very gathering where we worship we are first responsible for the poor there before any other poor. A man who cannot look after his own home cannot truly do anyone else any good.

That is the right, proper and Scriptural thing to do. Whether one would give half of one per cent or one would give 99%, nobody in the local assembly of brethren where a given believer may.be found should lack for any good thing that such a believer can provide.

Should this provision be made available regularly or out of new wealth? I'm not going to split hairs there. I will point to 1 Corinthians 16 as an example of such a practice. Whatever else might be said about that practice, this cannot.be denied: it was a very sensible practice and quite reminiscent of the practice of the tithing of old.

I agree with the bolded. I can't imagine a Christian having extra and not willing to share with needy brethren when you consider 1John 3:17. My pastor should benefit from me too if he needs it. A pastor who is well off financially and still sees no moral wrong in collecting from less endowed members of his flock has stepped into greed and this class is the majority in Christianity today. Even Moses told the Isrealites to stop bringing materials for the tabernacle construction in the wilderness when they had enough (Ex 36:5-6). Why can't our pastors ever say enough even with all the flamboyant cars and Jets? Greed is the simple answer.

Christians should be encouraged to give to those who need it. Contributing 1 million naira to your pastor's birthday celebration is a misuse of the resources God has entrusted into your care when you have a member of that Church who could set himself up in business to feed himself with 100,000 naira from you. We should be prudent and God will surely use us to relieve our needy brethren of their financial difficulties.

The contributions Paul collected from gentile churches was primarily for needy members of the church in Jerusalem. read Acts 11:28-30. Pastors should share in our resources but not to the point of neglecting the other poor brethren in church.

Image123: What you need is to ask the Spirit of God to interpret the scriptures, i also ask that BTW so do not consider it an insult. Your intrpretation of that passage contradicts the teachings of Jesus.
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

We cannot do everything that they say. Because they say and do not. They made doctrines contrary to God's and Jesus Himself attested to that.
Mat 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.


Jesus warned us to BEWARE of the doctrines and teachings of the pharisees. We cannot just do everything they say. It will be incongruent. We ought to obey God rather than man. This was the way the disciples understood it. But as for authority, sitting in the position of authority as the nation's senate and judges, they were to be obeyed.
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

BTW, i never saw any as pharisaic as antitihers on nl.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
They are the ones who would not give tithe or move it with a finger, but they keep telling tithers what and how to do their tithing. They will say you must convert it toso and so. Even the law was more merciful it gave an option of changing one type of tthe to money and then using the money to buy the tithe equivalent. It was considerate, unlike today's pharisees who bind heavy burdens grievous to be borne, telling us what law we must keep and what we must not keep, please let's repent of our ways, and let God have His way with his people.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Christ said you should do all they say if you agree you were the one being spoken to in Matt 23. There is no way you can skirt round that injunction. Christ said observe all they ask you to do and do them, he didnt talk of respect there my bro.those are your words you are inserting into scripture. Maybe you can help us with your dictionary meaning of OBSERVE and DO. Obey all.any other explanation is simply gymnastics.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their overtly meticulous adherence to tithing to the detriment of weightier matters of the law. Phew....the hypocrites even tithed spices. This is exactly what you preach:'10% or God will be angry with you for you have sinned' much like the Pharisees Christ condemned. I implore people to give as they are able, you insist on 10% pls who is the Pharisee?

I don't feel insulted if you say I need to study more. We all do actually. Meanwhile I recommend Ihedinobi's thoughts on tithing thread to you. I believe it will benefit you greatly

Cheers

Image123: i'm not sure that i remember ever telling you that you are bound to tithe. Tithing is not a matter of just the law of Moses. It has being established that people tithed before Moses's father was born. Tithing for believers today has nothing to do with the law. It's in consonance with our new nature. Our nature is willing to allow scriptures to lead, direct, teach, instruct us. We understand that the Scriptures are ableto make us wise and furnished to all good works. We are both 'keeping' some laws has it has being shown. the thing is now to know why we do what we do. you should not be insisting on making purposes and reasons for other's actions. i have told you why we do what we do, and you have told me yours. Can we now rest, and go home? i can almost bet not, you are not satisfied. Are you God? no. Are you our judge? no. Does our service have to be acceptable to you? no.

I'm sorry if you feel exasperated about it. You've said its your choice which is fine by me. It becomes a different matter when you bring it to the public space and promote it as a tenet of Christian service and doctrine. That is not only falsehood, it is cruel because you make an ungrounded Christian wallow in guilt if he doesn't follow your prescribed rate and that my bro is what I'm against.

By the way, Tithing started before Abram was even born. It was a practice well entrenched in the mid east hundreds of years before Abram met Melchizedek. Mosaic Tithing however was a different kettle of fish.

Image123: Sure, i believe we should not be having this discussion at all. It is your continual insistence that is letting us have this discussion. We have severally said to allow every man to be led by God's Spirit but it seems that does not suffice for you. i have no idea about any one being bound to pay the tithe. 'is a Christian leper bound to bring the birds for the ritual in Lev 14:4?' Is the christian bound to do anything? is the christian bound to pray, or to fellowship, or to fast or to give, or to be humble? Is the christian bound to obey the laws of the land where he resides? Should the christian drive around without a driver's license, should a christian travel with an expired or stolen passport? Do any of these things have to be written in the Bible or as the law of Moses? Like i have said, there is a need for a true understanding of the covenants, else we will continue to ask unfounded questions.

OK then. Since its the spirit leading you to tithe, I wont quarell with it.I have said this severally on this thread.

Every Christian prays, why doesn't the Spirit stipulate a fixed number of hours? You preach Spirit should lead us all but you can't help suggesting 10%, how do you reconcile it?

I think you too will benefit from studying the covenants again. There is a great difference between following laid down laws of Moses and allowing grace to lead

Happy Debo, Enigma & Zikkyy have answered Bidam's post to mine. The church where the Sunday school took place is an Assemblies of God church.

Until Christians realise that the Church is not just another business, we'll keep falling short in our obligation to be light and salt to the world. I am still in love with a DLBC tract title I believe should be every believer's motto 'others may, I cannot' . Others may steal, I cannot, others may embezzle, I cannot, others may abuse, curse but I cannot because I'm a child of God. If politicians don't steal, I would be surprised.

The Church should be the model by which the world should run their affairs and I dare say; they are learning corruption and impunity very well from the church of today. With the mentality of most Christians nowadays, the Lord had better come quickly otherwise the world will sink under the weight of corruption emanating from Church and the world.

God help us all indeed.

Image123: Don't misunderstand our Lord's statement. Your misunderstanding contradicts te entire chapter and the teachings of our Lord.

You're the one misunderstanding, misconstruing and misinterpreting the LORD's clear and concise command there. He said to Obey all that Moses, the Scribes and Pharisees tell you to do since you claim he was talking to you in that chapter. Do you obey his injunction there fully bro?

Image123: It's strange you forgot that we insisted that we are not under the law. It is you that claimed that tithing is strictly under the law, and that if we must tithe we must fulfil all other law, or is it 612 ther laws. You, not us. So, now we get to know that you are also fulfilling some of the laws! Good news. Talk about new nature and law of love appears stale. This were te same reason folks have given for giving tithe. That that is the way God's Spirit leads them, that they do it out of love for God and the church, that it is a principle of life in them.
At the end, the two parties are 'guilty' of obeying some of these 613 laws you brought up for personal reasons. What we need to do is ask you the same questions if you insist. Why not steal or murder, why regard God, why not curse father or mother, why tithe? Don't you know that you might be a debtor to do the law? The problem is that many people, like the OP, have not understood the covenants hence their continual stumble and hypocrisy of contradiction.

Yes my bro. Tithing is a matter of the LAW OF MOSES. What started this line of discussion is you telling me Matt 23:23 binds me to tithe. I told you NEVER as Jesus was speaking to the Jews under the Law. You disagreed and i said ok, if Matt 23:23 'truly' binds me to tithe, Then Matt 23:1-3 binds you to Obey every command from the mouth of Scribes and Pharisees which have become a staggering 613 laws over the years. Lets get the trail pls.

If Spirit leads them to tithe fine. that is your personal revelation bro, NOT MINE. Image, i gave you answers to this line of question some posts ago. Dont try to bring them in again under another guise. Don't force your personal revelation on me and others. The almighty has written into my heart and new nature how to live in Love. Maybe he also wrote Mosaic law of tithing, but since there is no levite or a priest from the tribe of Levi around me, that part of me was not activated.

Not stealing or murdering today for me as a Christian has nothing to do with the law. It's in consonance with my new nature. Are Hindus free to kill today? or you think they also live by the laws of Moses? God gave them a functioning conscience so there's already an inhibitor in them. For me a blood bought child of God, The Spirit of God which lives in me even does a better job than my old conscience in keeping me from being injurious to my neighbor.

James 2:10 says if you keep all the laws and fail in one, you're guilty of all and that is why i informed you have 613 laws in all, are you sure you keep all?

Image123: What happened at Jesus birth is not in the context of what we were telling Gosh about the words of Jesus being yes and amen. Gosh was saying some of Jesus' words were wrong or invalid. i have told you i do not intend to discuss this issue in detail, so bringing up various issues would be overlooked/ignored. sorry.
i didn't say Jesus was only asking for a doctor's report or its like. i was only showing the unobvious reason why Jesus said to go for a testimony so as to be able to be absorbed into society again. Its similar to a church telling a couple to get a marriage certificate from court. It has to do with the prevalent law of the land. These is verily in line with the new testament. By primary, they do not apply to everyone but lepers.

If i am to go by your explanation here, then we shouldn't be having this Discussion because only Farmers and livestock keepers were bound to pay the tithe and i have never been a farmer all my life, dont know about you though. Deut 14:22-29 etc will tell you that.

There was a ritual which you must follow before being re-admmited into society. My bro, it was a law in Isreal whether you call it primary or tertiary.

Only males were circumcised, Does it become less of a law for Isreal?

When Moses, started his proclamation in Deut 5:1, he said 'Hear, O Isreal,...' he didn't ask lepers into one group, farmers into another group etc. He gave laws to Isreal as a whole. Everybody note the ones that concern you.

The question 'is a Christian leper bound to bring the birds for the ritual in Lev 14:4?'

Is a Christian woman to bring 2 pigeons or 2 turtle doves to the sanctuary when she brings her son for dedication?