₦airaland Forum

Image123: hehehehe, bro i mentioned offerings and sacrifices and our lives too na. mentioned them all to wholly show tht we don't have to go to Heaven before we gve to God, tangible or intangible. When we give, or do anything, it is as unto God.

exactly my bro.we don't need to go to heaven to give to God, so whom should i give them to? particularly the tithe mentioned in Heb 7 since it's Jesus Christ that now collects the tithe as i'm expected to believe

Debeloved87: Are you saying part of the word of God is obsolete?...Well, what many people dont understand is what image123 has just said...whether the law is obsolete or not, God treated us with different reverence and we operate in a different spiritual level...as a beloved there are somethings Others may do them but i dare not do it if dont want to lose my God-given assignment..and i thank God for his grace,mercy and patience on me..and like i said before whether you tithe or not its ur personal issue btw u and God..thanks.

Good for you then. I wish you the best in your decision

cheers bro

Image123: Errrmmmm, hw do we give our praise to God? How do we give our offerings and sacrifices to Him? How do we give our very lives to Him? Who are His brethren?

@Image123, praises and worship are intangible things and MUST NOT be compared to Tithes and Offerings.

Abi you want to tell me you give God's praises and worship to your pastor to deliver on your behalf just like your tithe?

If i give my praises, prayers and worship to God directly, why do i need my pastor to help me deliver the tithes to him?

Image123: i thought Sapphira was under this dispensation, Candour? It remains unto you accrding to yr faith. If a man believes he will be more blessed when he des something God does not frown at, i suggest that we do not discourage him.

you see my brother, if we have to expatiate on whether Sapphira was under this dispensation or not, we'll derail this thread. But suffice to say that the Church that began after Peter's message in Acts 2 was still very much steeped in the practice and observance of Mosaic law. See Peter's reference to Cornelius as a gentile with whom he should have no dealings, insistence on the laws of Moses in Acts 15 and Acts 21 with the attendant argument and other instances in Acts of the Apostles.

I'll agree with not discouraging Debeloved87 but i think it's unfair and cruel to see a fellow believer laboring and worrying under a belief that he's under a curse when we all can attest to the fact that Christ has delivered us from every curse of the law. There are a lot of literally poor Christians who are daily bombarded with the lie that God is punishing them because they didn't tithe from a loaf of bread they received as a gift from somebody. I didn't make up this last story. I know more than one family who have this belief.

I just try to let people know now that their 10% pleases God just like their 2% or 80%

Cheers brother

Bidam: Even smart folks who are not even born again see it as a scam.so no be only your "christian revelation my brother". The truth is there is a misconception concerning the tithe in the body of Christ.Young christian who lacks the knowledge about the deep things of God will usually say it was cancelled in hebrews.But no where in that scripture was it cancelled.Infact it was even proved beyond doubts by Paul that the levi payed tithe in Abraham while in his loins to validate the priesthood of melchizedek who is more superior than the levetical priesthood.Abraham had an everlasting covenant with God while the mosaic covenant has become obsolete.Abraham's tithe is used to portray to us what types and shadows of the new should be.

Superficial knowledge of scriptures on the surface will tend to portray that since we can not see melchizedek we don't need tithe to anyone.
But the actual truth is that everything we do in the kingdom of God is by Faith and not by seeing. We pray by faith,we heal the sick by faith,we exercise our gifting by faith. Is it not strange that those who tithe, tithe blindly(simple obedience to instructions) while those who claim to see the abolishing of the tithe, see blindly (disobedience borne out of covetousness and pride concerning claims to know scriptures.)

Because the tithes has been misconstrued,abused,misinterpreted, misapplied and misdirected in the body of Christ doesn't make it a fake scriptural reality.There is something about God that our fathers have seen,touched and handled that we don't know until we see God on the other side of the divide.May God help us.Amen.

From your post i can deduce that we are no longer under Mosaic tithe since the Abraham's tithe to Melchisedek you referenced. TOTALLY DIFFERS from Mosaic LAW OF TITHING.

Since Melchizedek is a picture of Christ and Christ has finally come to set his High Priesthood in motion, the question then becomes how do i get these tithes to Christ? Melchizedek received Abraham's tithe by himself so how does Christ receive the tithes today? This is on the assumption that i agree with you that Heb 7 doesn't obliterate the tithe idea but rather it advocates it.

If Christ receives tithes today, wont you agree with me that it's better to do it with Matt 25:35-40 in mind with special attention to verse 40.

Matt 25:40
'Ant the king shall answer and say unto them, Verily i say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me'

Finally it's not those against tithing that are covetous and greedy but the greedy ones are those who tithe only because they've been promised returns on the investment and also those who threaten children of God with curses, failure, sickness for not remitting tithe while they know fully well that the bible says the following

Rom 8:32
'He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things'

God gave me salvation freely, why do i need to pay him to get my physical needs met? that's the question Paul asked in the verse above.

Cheers bro

Image123: God does not deal with everybody the exact same way. What you might do as an hobby and get away with, a Saphira might do once and kick the bucket. Leave him alone with his Maker.

bro Image123, we can NEVER have a Saphira & Ananias scenario under this dispensation because we're under grace otherwise a lot of the G.O's you see around who do worse than what Saphira did would have kicked more than bucket a long time ago.

I am sure this is not the first time Debeloved87 has lost something so why is this peculiar? because his mind has conditioned him to believe he's cursed if he doesn't tithe. My mum told me same story about having problems some years ago when she gave her tithe money to a friend in need.She said she suffered a dip in her business for 6 months because of it and i reminded her that despite her 'provoking Shiloh sacrifice' of Dec 2011, she was still fleeced of a large sum of money by a 'brother in Christ' she did a business with in 2012. Problems come and go irrespective of tithe so we should emancipate ourselves from this mental and mind slavery.

It's his decision to tithe and i wont deny him that and wont even condemn him but i reject the notion that a Child of God bought by the precious blood of Christ is under a curse for not giving 10%. Then what does Rom 8:32 mean when it mentions 'freely'?

nlMediator: Joel is NOT a theological giant and have never claimed to be one. In fact, he would be the first to tell you that. He always refers to the fact that he was content working the cameras for his dad and would never get up to preach, despite his father's urging on numerous occasions. If you can find the video of when Joseph Prince came to preach at Lakewood for the first time, you’d hear Joel saying that he marvels at Joseph Prince's knowledge of the Bible and his ability to present deep truth from familiar scriptures. It’s not God’s plan that only the deep theologians can preach the Word and minister to people. For the deep and mature, there are the Joseph Princes of this world to minister to them. To those who crave simplicity, a simple messenger like Joel is there for them. That’s the beauty of our God. Trying to delegitimize one group of ministers by calling them motivational speakers is completely unwarranted. And interesting that you’d complain that Joel is preaching about success, while raising Joseph Prince as different. First, Joel’s message is about Hope (even “his” Bible is called Hope for Today Bible) not simply success. He gives hope to the hopeless. And this could be people in need of success in their finances or on their jobs. But it also includes people who are burdened by shame, guilt, marital issues, health problems, relationship issues, including relationship with God. Second, I listen to Prince fairly often and I’m looking at his book, “Unmerited Favor” as I type. I’d say that Prince preaches about success more than Joel, including financial success. For one, Prince has messages on tithes. I have listened to Joel for about 10 years now and have scores, if not hundreds of his messages. Not ONE of them teaches tithing. Now, I’m not complaining that Prince preaches about success. I need every Success message I can find. And some of you that are successful have scant idea what people in bondage to lack, rejection, dejection and the like are going through. Such people need the Jesus of the Bible, who fed the people spiritually and met their physical needs. Not make them feel terrible for seeking help to meet their basic needs. Finally, so Joseph Prince’s message “is not about a better here and now but a glorious new dawn when Christ returns”?

My bro, i'm glad we both agree that Osteen's theology has very little depth. Its an example of what is called a 'feel good theology' and i maintain Deepak Chopra, Iyanla vanzant, Rhonda Byrne, Prem Rawat etc do same. This is the reason i call him a motivational speaker rather than a minister of the gospel. His message of hope is good but anybody can deliver a message of hope and i just listed non-Christians who do exactly that.

People need hope and i agree. I know what it means to be desperate and almost hopeless. I got to that point in 2010 after years of high flying success and it was simply the grace of God that got me back. The danger in relying solely on hope and motivational preachings every sunday is the real possibility of slipping into 'new age theology' which also has the total good of man as its central focus. That on the surface isn't bad but going deeper reveals it's real intent which is the relegation of Christ to just one of many spiritual masters and the elevation of man to godhood. Google up 'NEW AGE TEACHINGS' and you'll see what i'm talking about.

Joseph Prince goes deep into the bible and i appreciate that. in fact i was a very ardent follower of his until over 2 years ago when i discovered that the High Priesthood for which he collects tithes is based in heaven(Heb 7) and no agent has been appointed to replace or mirror it on earth. Also his interpretation of Rom 5:17(a cardinal verse of his ministry) no longer sat well with me as he promised a better here and now immediately you come to Christ and that to my understanding is at variance with the central message of all epistles of Paul, Peter, James and John which is an endurance of this present time until our glorification when Christ returns. Even Christ didn't promise us a rose petaled pathway when we come to him. I still listen to him though because he's gifted in bringing the Pentateuch to life.

I can't deny that motivational messages of hope are good for the soul but teaching only hope every sunday or weekday fellowship i repeat will not do any Christian's spiritual life any good. The central message of the Cross isn't wealth but a sound relationship with the father that produces a renewed man from the inside out.It's the message of the expunging of our sin record because Christ took our place.This is the message i believe our preachers should be emphasizing.

Cheers bro

Always knew he was a 'new age practitioner'

I'd never heard he was a member of the Freemasons

I believe a 'thief' would better describe this particular bishop

nlMediator: Motivation and motivational messages are part of Christianity and part of any minister's calling. Jesus motivated people. Paul lifted people through his messages. You come out of the presence of God and the presence of those who have been with God and feel relieved and refreshed. There are times you feel burdened by all the devil is throwing at you and all you need is an uplifting message. Just as Joel Osteen may not have drawn you closer to God, others have a different testimony. I was reading one guy on the internet the other day, who didn't seem to be a christian, say that since he started listening to Joel, he has been reading his Bible everyday. The first time I stepped into his church, I felt the presence of God so much, I told that to a friend in another part of the world almost immediately. Every minister has his own calling. Let's do our best to fulfill our calling instead of trying to fit everybody into our mould. I agree with you on one point though: preachers and christians need to do a better job of living a prayerful life and teaching the importance of spending time with God (not just because we want anything). That's where the power lies. And that's the difference between the church of old and today. That's why even those that are not preaching motivation or prosperity are not that much better in transforming anybody's lives. Otherwise, we'd be seeing and hearing of such results. Or perhaps, you have such a list to share?

I'll not argue with your experience but pls note it's YOUR OWN experience just like i relayed mine. I'm happy we both agree that Ministers should spend more time talking about the the cross than material benefits that might come because of the cross.

I listen to Joseph Prince also and even though he's friends with Joel Osteen, I can't but notice the difference between them. While Osteen quotes from Psalms and Proverbs majorly to make me feel good about myself, Prince opens the bible in a more detailed fashion which leaves his hearers with a better understanding of the bible.

Like I said, I've benefited from the motivational messages just as I've benefited from Gandhi's thoughts.but motivational messages will never take the place of the details of the cross.The message of the cross is not about a better here and now but a glorious new dawn when Christ returns.

Receiving a pep talk on success every Sunday didn't do my Spirit man much good and that is the summary of my post.

Cheers brother

herbeytv: I don't know where to put this either in the Jokes apartment or Religion. I just want to share this with you Nairalanders.


I was in church one day when pastor said: "It's time tosay hello to your neighbours,shake hands and let's get to know each other."
I said hello to the person sitting to my left and to the one sitting to my right.. We introduced ourselves and both said they were Egyptians.

Preaching time came and pastor decided to preach from
Exodus 14:13.. Telling us about how God saved the Israelites from Egyptians.

My people, remember that there were Egyptians on my left and right. I was thinking to myself: "How do these two Egyptians feel knowing that their people are the bad guys in this Bible verse"
Well, I just sit-down my own je-je-je. The next thing oo!!,pastor shouted: "The Egyptians made the people of God to suffer for years!!!, I said they made them suffer!!!, Turn to your left and to your right!!! And tell your neighbour: "The Egyptians you see today, you shall seeno more!!!"

My people, if you were in my position will you say the
word?
Am waiting for answers! Thanks

funny actually but i believe it'll do better in Jokes section

cheers

4C2215131: In my opinion,majority of so called christians go to church for what they can get. They worship God for certain benefits not because they love Him intrinsically.

That being said,I keep opining that the messages one hear being preached from christian pulpits are no different from what you'd hear in an Eck serminar or a Grail Message meeting amongst others. The only difference is that the christian preacher invokes the name of Jesus Christ in passing across his message as opposed to Abd Du Rusheen or any other new age teacher. It's all about positive thinking.

@the bolded ,i must agree with you. Most of our modern pentecostal preachers are motivational speakers and nothing more. While you can see that they evidently succeed in motivating their members to higher achievements(something Deepak Chopra, Iyanla Vanzant etc also do nicely), they add little or nothing to their spiritual growth. So we have our Church buildings filled on sunday mornings but no decrease in the crimes and moral decadence of the society. Testimonies of one breakthrough or the other are printed and spread through mass mobilisation, an activity they erroneously tag 'evangelism' asking people to come receive their miracle with no effort to introduce them properly to the giver of that miracle.

They won't be out of business anytime soon as long as we have hopelessness and despondency in the land but i wish they'll be honest enough to stick to their motivational messages and leave the gospel stewardship to those who are really entrusted with it. The message of the cross is far greater than bling bling and jeeps.

I have read some Joel Osteen books infact i have 'It's your time' here with me but i dont delude myself thinking i'll get closer to Christ reading it. There is very little difference between it and Deepak Chopra's 'why is God laughing' and Chopra isn't a Christian.

Though motivational messages have their place, they'll never take the place of the gospel and we should learn to separate them so we don't fall into error.

Rhemar: God taking over kingdoms, it's high time we retraced our steps back to him. It's good he's realized they've being following after man-made gods nd traditions of no meaningful substance for too long nd d appointed time to quit all dat is nw God bless d King

My bro, he has recanted. He has taken back the 'Ogiame' title so back to status quo

While i applaud his decision to show he's born again, i think he should have just stepped down from the throne if he means business and leave the traditionalists with their throne. You can't divorce the throne from tradition and it could have become very violent if he hadn't budged. Paul renounced his position in Judaism when God arrested him because he knew there is no way he could have combined the two.

dismantling a tradition of over 500 years on his own was a battle doomed to failure from the start.

OLAADEGBU: A man with an experience is not at the mercy of the man with an argument.

well......thank God for his mercies

OLAADEGBU: With all of the bible studies and exposition I have been posting on NL how many have you or your friends perused or even clicked on. It is only when you see warnings of the afterlife as these that you begin to be santcimonious by saying you don't need anyone's testimony. That's alright if you don't need it then move on because many come to Christ through the testimony of others like those who came to Christ through the testimony of the Samaritan woman. Thomas only believed in the bodily resurrection when he saw our Lord's pierced hands and feet. There are many people like that especially in areas where the gospel cannot reach that the Lord reveals Himself to them through dreams and visions, who are you to rubbish their experiences. Work out your own salvation with trembling and fear.

@the bolded, i didn't rubbish their experiences alone, Kumuyi also joined me in doing same and you can also direct your anger at him. You dont create Christians through fear instead you create Zombies. Christians are made through Love and i'm happy Kumuyi is emphasizing that now.

My dear brother, all you do is repost Kumuyi's messages and i know how to get Kumuyi's messages if i need them.

For your info, i attend DLBC monday bible studies some mondays i'm in town.My Dad who is still a Deeperlifer to the core gives my wife the Christian women mirror every month which i take my time to Digest. I still attended 2012 December retreat. No matter your shenanigans or what some of my acquaintances on nairaland say, I will always hold DLBC in high regard in my heart because it was there i was introduced to what it means to be calm, respectful and considerate. What it means to love God because of God and not because of what i will get for serving God like it's being practiced in pentecostalism today. I grew up sitting on the laps of people like Pastors Amatare, Ighalo, Daminabo etc between 1986 and 1999 and these men were examples of Christianity.

You are an example of what is bad with DLBC. Arrogant and conceited. Believing you're more holy or superior to everybody and you alone knows the way to heaven. I stopped posting on your threads because you hardly reply posts addressed to you and even when you do, you are very condescending. go back to your TITHES AND OFFERINGS thread and confirm. So rather than get into a verbal war with you, i just avoid contributing in your threads altogether. I read them though and pick beneficial things from them.

OLAADEGBU, take this message from G.S as directed at you and stop your scare mongering. focus on the Gospel instead

Thanks

Joagbaje: Why does every criticism land on tithe ? , why not offering? It's only a confirmation , that there's something very significant about the tithe, that's why the devils head spins 360 degrees.

hmmmm....Joagbajeeeee!!!

....Kumuyi further said that one of the people who claimed to have gone to heaven said they saw Mummy Kumuyi in the kingdom of God, saying that he did not need such CD to know that his wife was in heaven and that the word of God has told us the criteria for getting to His kingdom.

According to him, such people were merely deceiving the people, saying that when Apostle Paul was translated to heaven and came back, he did not produce CDs about what he saw in heaven and began to sell them.

“When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, Lazarus did not go about telling people that this was what he saw in heaven. We should rest on the word of God to tell us what we need to know about heaven and how to get there. How do you know that they have actually gone to heaven? These are the last days. Don’t waste your money on buying these CDs,” he stated.

the above is what Christians have been telling OLAADEGBU for months but he just wouldn't listen. If you ask him now, he'll find a way to diplomatically deny that Kumuyi mouthed the quote bolded above.

It's obvious OLAADEGBU is very zealous but not according to knowledge but rather than listen, he keeps on raging ahead like a blindfolded bull in a china shop. My pastor friend's wife cut her long hair after watching this nonsense of a video and you could see the woman being very miserable about it. i wonder what she'll do now when she hears that Kumuyi cast aspersions on the videos.

These are the end times and scammers are everywhere. let Christians stick to their bibles.Its the more sure word pls

OLAADEGBU: Heaven and Hell are real. Repent and believe the gospel.

I believe heaven and hell are real but i've always warned you to desist from promoting hell tourists and visioners who have no message from God but promote concocted tales from the pit of hell to line their pockets from sales of CD's. you better go meet them to get your share of the proceeds you helped them get from gullible nairalanders

hear Kumuyi say 'Lazarus didn't come back from the dead with tales of the after life' so stick to your bible to know the plans of God for these latter times.

as i have warned you before, Kumuyi(your spiritual father whom i respect so much for his simplicity) has just done the same: DESIST FROM PROMOTING FAKES

God bless you

OLAADEGBU: If you think that I receive or read the word of God with a closed or made up mind or that I rely on revelations to scare people that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Since you cannot, would not and could not supply the evidence of your allegation I'll advise you to hold your horse until you can furnish us with facts.

And as for the message of the sermon, if you can say that the GS agrees with you that hell is not a reality as was claimed then I will rest my case.

Kumuyi will never say hell is not a reality. I believe hell is a reality. what most people people have been telling you ever since is to stop your fear mongering thinking you are doing God a service or winning souls for the kingdom.That is the same message Kumuyi gave and everybody heard it. Kumuyi said the bible is sufficient to convince people and countless people have told you same but you went on as if God commissioned you to be propagating videos of how demons are torturing people in hell.

Pls listen to your G.S. Even though your videos paint DLBC in very good light, Kumuyi was very honest to discountenance them like every wise child of God should. I think you should take this advice

God bless you

Etesam: Thanks for replying. Actually, i endeavour to pay my tithes. But not to Pastor or Church. I pay 100% not 10. And the tithe which i pay is the whole of me!

Halleluyah!!! my brother you just got the message.

Rom 12:1
'I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.'

Christ has the whole of me. If he leads me to give my whole September income for purposes that glorify his name, so be it. He has already let us know what kind of purposes glorify him. Read Matt 25:35-40 to get a picture. Its better for us all as Christians to invest more in people who actually need it than help one man somewhere fulfill his hedonistic dreams and wallow in conspicuous consumption when the bible clearly label them all as vanity upon vanity.

May God bless you as you spend yourself in true service to God almighty

Etesam: What you fail to appreciate is the sincerity (or is it ignorance!) of most church people, myself included. Not all pastors collecting tithes are profiteers. Some of the people who pay tihes do so from geniun love -not fear or reward.

I do not doubt your sincerity child of God. My mum who is the best mother any body can have is still tithing and sowing dangerous 'seeds' to her pastors and u know she's doing it sincerely.Even some pastors collect the tithes and use it judiciously to better the lot of their congregation and I knew one of such in Jos way back.

The problem is the businessmen who tell congregants they are sinning by not paying 10% to them.those who tell Christians that Christ's death is not enough and they must collect from you and remit to God before you can prosper. Who gave Dangote, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet the ability to make money? Is it not God? U mean that same God would deny me his child my health, joy,wealth etc because I refuse to pay a self appointed agent 10% of what he freely gave me? Then what does Romans 8:31-32 mean?

The fact that you do it sincerely doesn't make it right. It the cheerful giver God applauds in this dispensation, not the religious tither.

Give 10%,20%,50% or even 100%. Its laudable but it will never be Gods Tithe. God defined his tithe in Deut14:22-29, Number 18:21-32, Neh 10:37-39.Don't desecrate or belittle it with your own definition.

God bless you

stillwater: Lol, a lot of charlatan pastors would soon quit the faith with these revelations. About time we know who's there for the money or the gospel.
The apostles didn't go about seeking tithes. The people gave by their own volition.

The bible is very clear why the Levites, among the poor, widows were included in the tithing. It's because they had no landed properties or inheritance. Is that applicable today?

Nothing wrong in giving to the church. I would gladly give my money for the propagation of the gospel. But enough of the deceit!

Today's church have rather stolen from the poor or people who are struggling. And you people wanna make heaven? Rotflmao!

Very well said.

God bless you

kunlejazz: Sir, as much as you don't want anyone to control your life...no one does really; there still has to be procedure! Standards!
God speaks through his prophets, and they are to be obeyed. You know the funny thing, even if they seem wrong in our eyes, it isn't your prerogative to judge them. They're humans afterall.
They are called 'Men' of God, not 'God' of Men; they are first and foremost MAN!

Remember when Moses disobeyed God by marrying the Ethiopian (black) woman. He sinned, but God punished those that condemned him (Aaron and Miriam). He has God and his own spiritual heads (if he/she has mentors) to answer to. Not us!
I've said enough for one day

Peace

My bro, pls I hope you don't live your Christian life through one MOG whose teachings can't be scrutinised?

Have u heard of Rev Jim Jones? What about Movement for restoration of ten commandments? Rev King? David Koresh? Pls Google them up and you'll see the result of following 'anointed' prophet without checking his teachings.

Stop comparing Moses time to now cos we are under a better covenant. Jesus death tore open the holiest if holies my bro.I don't need any man's help to approach God.

The Berean Christians were called 'more noble' because they cross checked Paul's message.I strongly believe they would have disagreed with him if they found him inconsistent.

God guides me and he can do that even through you or any other medium he dims fit.

God bless you

kunlejazz: Really, one fact continues to crystallize from your posts- that you're just not a fan of tithing and you're aren't willing to be un-biased about it.
There's also really not much for me to say.

Matt 19:5 was not a direct command not to have more than one wife, as I stated in my last post.
In today's church, It is a treated as such. This modification is what makes it a doctrine.

Also, why is it not for any man to propose a standard for giving but he can propose standards for every other thing (e.g. order of services, leadership election procedures, courting procedures and so on)? Or do you now mean there should be no doctrines/statutes for any thing in the church?

And if no standard should be imposed, what will guide baby christians/young believers with much less knowledge of scriptures than you have to give?

Please brother/sister, try to be a little more open. Please

@the bolded is where man worship starts. See what Paul says

2Cor 1:24
'Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: f[b]or by faith ye stand[/b]'

Even the great apostle knew he had no power over the lives of believers.He acknowledged that we stand by faith. Check his letters, you'll find plenty 'i beseech', 'i admonish', i exhort' which are all synonymous with pleading.there are very few places where he tried to stamp authority.

DLBC does not use gown for wedding and the bride should not receive anything from the groom during courtship(my younger sister's engagement was almost broken off by this in 2003).LFC and Christ Embassy allow gowns and buying of gifts for each other during courtship so which one is the standard approved by God?

Religious monsters are created when Children of God have to get directions on how to leave their lives from one 'infallible' MOG and that is a negation of grace my bro.

kunlejazz: The monthly tithing thing is then by far a very reasonable yardstick for giving for today's church, just like any other church doctrine, not necessarily given as a direct command in scriptures.
Here's what beats

1. The concept of one man one wife is not commanded any where in scriptures, neither in the OT nor the NT(except for bishops 1 Tim 3:2)- but a doctrine adopted and accepted by the church to apply to all.

2. The concept of 'never taking alcohol' too isn't directly commanded anywhere in scriptures, but it is church doctrine and very few believers will go against it, at least in this part of the world.

3. And about women keeping their mouths shut in church (as Paul commanded the Corinthian Church)- that was a doctrine adopted by the church then to take care of the Corinthian women's high-handedness, being that they were, more often than not richer than their husbands and intend to dominate and slight their husbands in church gatherings (this is topic for another time though. God willing, we'll get to trash it).

But when the tithe is used as a yardstick for NT given, because it concerns money we hear a lot of complnts.

Now, I challenge anyone on this thread to propose a standard of giving for the NT believer, close enough to what we have in Acts 4:34 (selling your possessions and distributing among believers) that will allow us give less than a tenth of our income!

Tithing is a doctrine. Yes! Just like many other doctrines in the NT church, which we all adhere to without reservations.

I'm getting to learn a lot from this thread. I hope we all are. God bless everyone that has being a part.
Peace!

The problem is who made Tithing the yardstick? and how am i sure its a yardstick that is acceptable to God when the early Christians actually gave all?

My bro, its not about the money but about placing a law on Christians. If God leads you to give 10%, 20% or 50% by all means go ahead and do so but don't tell me i commit a sin if i refuse to give 10%.It should be my prerogative and falls withing the purview of 'every man as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give'

The issue of one man one wife was so made from Genesis but even at that i still wonder why Paul had to still mention it as a criteria for leadership in Church.Could it be because there were believers in these assemblies who had more than one wife and it wasn't a sin though prevented them from taking high post in the Church? I believe a sensible man even non christians should know the bad side of polygamy so it now becomes an issue of wisdom and not necessarily sin.To be candid, i am still studying this angle and i pray for my understanding to be opened.That is why i avoid discussing it.This is just me thinking aloud.

I do not drink alcohol in any form because i actually have a bad experience to tell about it but you will not find a place where alcohol is condemned as a sin in the bible.You'll only hear that those led astray by it are not wise, just as Peter too didn't show wisdom when he was alienating the gentile Christians before Paul rebuked him.even Deut 14:22-29 tells you to use Tithe money to buy strong drink. Now the Spirit in a Christian will naturally caution a Christian on the danger of inebriation and it's effect on your behaviour and the worse problem of serious health challenges if that Christian actually submits to the leading of the Spirit.

we all are still learning and like what Enigma said in one post up there, i believe this is also an avenue the Holy Spirit uses to teach us.

God bless you

Urine: Well done 13volts, you're a true hero. May God bless and protect you. To all the e-warriors on this forum, this what a real warrior looks like.

Even though your name na Urine, i must quote thanks for pointing out the bolded.

na person wey never see war before dey beat chest. tribal warriors who fill up front page every time with their inanities should go sign up in Borno and see what they call war. It's not to sit in a cozy office sipping tea and using one hand to type venom and hatred on your smartphone. This is war and i pray this country doesn't go this road. it ain't pretty at all

I know the president and his team get regular updates and this will make them realize the PDP issue shouldn't be allowed to be hijacked by wicked elements otherwise e no go nice o.

@13volts, weldone to you and your comrades and i wish you guys well in your job.

cheers

Bidam: The problem with our generation is that they love looking for signs and not the Word.The Holy Spirit is here, we don't need anyone to tell us an experience of heaven or hell.Keep to yourself.

I only wish, hope and pray that OLAADEGBU will take to this your advice + pastor Kumuyi's admonition.

His obsession with these hell videos is getting to a dangerous level and i mean no joke.

Ihedinobi: @debosky, I think that I understand you now. You think that these Laws that God promised to write on our hearts are specific and somewhat vague. The latter is what you mean when you say "nuanced", am I right?

Now I believe without any reservation that God does not change. Times, seasons and variations of eras do not affect Him. If He wanted or demanded anything yesterday, it is still what He wants and demands today and will want and demand tomorrow. So these Laws that He says He will write must be the same as He has always laid upon man. I think you'll agree with that. Or else you would be advocating that He changed His mind about what He wanted from man at some point.

If it is the same Laws that He had for us yesterday then they must have been in the Old Covenant as well. I think we both agree on that. You yourself said that there are principles in the Old Covenant. Well, I hold that those principles are the True Laws of God. I have no doubt that God had no laws but those regardless what dispensation or context we're studying.

Thus while the Old Covenant has been abolished, these Laws have remained unchanged. For this reason, the Old Covenant must not be neglected for study. Behind every shadow is some object that gives it existence. In the Old Covenant, the New is hidden.

As for the circumcision, I assure you it was no Law and I was splitting no hair. The circumcision of Moses corresponds to the water baptism of today. There's a difference between initiation and code of conduct, I believe you'll agree.

As for the question of specifics, particular behaviors betray the nature of the actor. And a conscious creature studies its nature in order to conform to it. This is why there is the principle of generation and genealogy amd why the Scriptures say that we are changed as we behold Christ.

@Ihedinobi, i know you addresed the above to debosky but i decided to chip in as i believe it's in a way related to the point you raised to me.

i want to believe when you make mention of Laws in the old testament, you're not restricting it to just the 10 commandments on tables of stone? If you are, then you'll be right to say circumcision is not there just as Tithe, laws of bodily discharge etc do not also feature. If however, you are talking about all the laws(613 of them) by which the theocracy of Isreal operated, then i'm afraid you'll be wrong to say circumcision is not included. read Joshua chapter 5 to see how it was fully incorporated.Then also remember it was the main distinguishing feature between Jews and gentiles.

When John came baptising, people were still being circumcised. Even Paul had to shave his head and circumcise timothy just to keep the judaizers quiet and this was more than 10 years after Peter's preaching on the day of pentecost when over 3000 were baptised as believers.So i'll disagree that circumcision corresponds to the baptism of today.

i'm open to more enlightenment on the issue pls

Ihedinobi: Like Paul once said too, was God interested in animal eating habits and natural bodily discharges or was He interested in the hearts of the men and women He created?

my exact sentiments brother.

God is interested in our hearts than a literal obedience to the laws because if the heart is right, The life and Living will be right too.

Ihedinobi: My dear brother, there is a substantial difference between what the Law itself said and the conventional understandings of the Law.

dear bro, I do not really get what you mean

the example of prohibition of Isrealites from the gathering because of bodily discharges was expressly given as laws by Moses in Leviticus and it was in agreement with the concept of HOLINESS in the Mosaic law.

I hope my explanation is in line with your query but if not, pls kindly let me know so i can attend to it properly

God bless you real good

Enigma: Let me also add one dimension.

One key thing about the promises and result of the "new covenant" is that the new man is born of the Spirit. Crucially, he is led of the Spirit --- if he submits of course.

A potential consequence of this is that an action that is truly led by the Spirit may even go against "the law" or conventional understandings of "the law"!

Examples
Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath
Is it "lawful" to heal/forgive on the Sabbath?
Rahab the harlot counted among the heroes of faith in the book of Hebrews etc

@ the bolded is why i get amazed and sad when i hear folks say Jesus Christ came to show us how to keep the law of Moses. It makes a nonsense of Grace. How on earth do you think you can keep the law?

Lev chapters 12 & 15 tells you how the law can prevent a child of God from fellowship simply because of Childbirth, menstruation or seminal fluid discharge. How do you reconcile this with forsake not the assembling of yourselves together?

I am happy to have the liberty of Spirit and be free from the bondage of the law. Thank God for the cross of Christ. It made all the difference

Zikkyy: You refused to specify the tithe that is everlasting. We know Abraham's type of tithe ended with Abraham, and the tithe to the Levites went with the Levite. So what tithe is everlasting? the fraud inspired pastoral version? I agree that one will not end as long as there is poverty and problem in the land and you don't expect to find that in the scriptures because it was not practiced at the time.



Hebrews 7 tells you that the tithe to the Levite went with them (because Hebrews 7 tells you it was only the Levites that had commandment according to the law to exact tithes from the people). it was the only tithing practice in operation at the time and it was the only tithing practice commanded by God). Your Abrahamic type tithe was nailed to the temple's wall the day moses delivered the new tithing model. What you practice today is man made.

The scripture may not tell you that tithe has ended. There is no need for that because every giving is a tenth (or 10%) of something. My giving in church last sunday could have been a tenth (or 10%) of the money in my wallet, meaning i gave a tithe of the money in my wallet we all give tithe one way or the other and the bible will not tell you to stop giving 10% because every giving could be 10% of something. What was abolished was the tithing practice defined/instituted by God himself. I am sure it's not that difficult for you to understand

This is the same reason i wanted him to tell us which version is eternal but he ran away from that thread like he did too on the 'Tithe and Offerings' thread of OLAADEGBU in march. Mal 3:8-12 that is their most important bible verse did not define the tithe. You show them Deut 14:22-29, Num 18:21-31, Neh 10:37-39, they start speaking in tongues.

they know all these things but they bluntly refuse to accept the truth.

Anyway i'm happy that these kinds of shenanigans come up as they help me in my Bible study as i'm forced to search the scriptures again and again to see if i missed somethings and i end up digging up more treasures