₦airaland Forum

debosky: That's fixed for you.



What do you mean God didn't 'force' the Israelites to give? What is a commandment? Is that an optional requirement or something you are compelled to obey?

Bro debo, you'll be surprised most Christians when talking about use of force and coercion only see the picture of a gun pointing at somebody's head. So you hear 'did they put gun on their head?'

If only they know the enormous power and force of moral and spiritual authority.

I agree with this post, particularly with the quote below.

OLAADEGBU: Regarding our financial resources, our prayer should be, “Take them, Lord, and use them as you see fit to meet the needs of others and to spread the gospel.” Without His blessing, we can never have enough; but with His blessing, we will never lack. Loving “money is the root of all evil” (1 Timothy 6:10). Instead, we should “be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee” (Hebrews 13:5).

Let us make our all available to God and his true purpose. He owns them anyway and doesn't need them but he's shown us in his word what is purpose for saving us and giving us the resources is and that is to share.

Let contentment also rule in our lives and we'll see the peace of God flow through us.

God bless you

Image123: DEBOOOOOOOO, hope you can read the first line? This is the view of most antitithers here BTW, not the lip service they were paying in Ola's thread.

Pls don't generalise. How many opinions have you sampled? Is paying tithe of prayers, praise and time also your practice as said by one of my tithe paying brothers?

I do not see it as sin but as burdensome legalism and self righteousness

Nice topic HBG. Let me just add some things

Stop hypocrisy and cover ups. A situation where we refuse to speak up against apparent evil, lies and injustice perpetrated by people hiding under the cover of touch not my anointed only ridicules our claims of being Christlike. We all scream at embezzlement and impunity in public office but defend same when it comes to our favorite MOG. We should hold our brethren and leaders accountable. That is integrity.

Start an aggressive personal bible study. How can you be a good salesman if you don't know your product? Bible illiteracy these days is alarming and the sooner we realise plenty 'leaders' of the faith are happy with the situation (because it keeps folks under subjection), the better for us. The body of Christ needs more Bible teachers today than faith healers.

Update general knowledge. We live in a very sophisticated world now when knowledge about anything is just a click away. How many Christians know about the work of Martin Luther? How many know about the crusades? How many know anything apart from the principles of money making outlined in the latest book by their MOG?

Stop the vanity. After all said and done, Solomon the wise concluded 'all is vanity'. We scream heaven but we do not look like folks who are ready to go. How many of us go to the market and become reluctant to go back home? I guess those with nothing to look forward to at home. That is exactly how we behave and we expect unbelievers to take us seriously when we preach heaven. The preoccupation of the Church with monuments and materialism should stop. The craze to match the secular world brick for brick should stop. We are called to build people, not buildings.

Be true to your calling. Is the sticker on your car preaching a better message than your life? Your life is the most potent message you can give so live it to project Christ. We claim to love God but refuse to extend a simple courtesy to the neighbour you see. Do people find love in our gatherings?

You can't convert any man. That is the job of the Holy Spirit but take heed to

1Peter 2:12
'Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation'

Largest city of God on earth indeed. Congrats OP, Guinness book of world records should come calling soon but they'll find nothing but a mixture of bricks, cement and iron because there's nothing Godly about a building.

God dwells in you and I today if you're a Christian and he's pleased if you worship him at a motor park or the white house.

Its good development. At least Jobs, utilities have been created but leave city of God out of it.

[quote author=Issy-E]I'm realy getting worried or should I say confused the way things are going in Christiandom. I have discovered that nine out of every ten brides on their wedding day are about three months pregnant already. I was told as young gal that it was a kind of taboo for that to happen to a girl. Our seeming strong christian bros and sisters are not left out in this trend. What do I do. Should I and other young christians accept it as the right way of life or stand against it. May we know through this forum what is right before God because the whole situation is getting on my nerves that I nw expect news of delivery of my friends six months after wedding. Its no more new to me.[/quote]1Thess 5:22
'Abstain from all appearance of evil'

2Cor 6:3
'Giving no offense in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed'

Gal 5:22-23
'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23.Meekness, TEMPERANCE :against such there is no law'

How do we see sex? A handshake between friends? A Christian should exercise temperance or self control. Will they die in the few months before wedding if they don't get intimate? Why engage in something that ridicules the name of Christ? The Church too isn't helping matters with long drawn out marriage committee red tape and all

Go to a registry and legalise the union if you can't wait for Church wedding. It is perfectly right in the sight of God.

Let us learn to flee every appearance of evil. Grace is not license

Eph 2:15
'Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace'

The law that made Isreal special and different from Gentiles has been abolished. In its place, the law of love reigns supreme and Love is that which seeks its neighbors highest good . All the law is fulfilled when you love God and love your neighbor, so says our Lord and you can truly do this by the working of the Holy Spirit.

@alexleo, God bless you

Hmm..... Plaetton has come again with another theory.....and I must admit you're right to the extent that you mentioned the appropriate culprit: The name it and claim it prosperity theology'

The message of the cross is not the promise of a fat bank account, garage full of cars or a catapulting to high levels of influence. American pentecostals imported the american dream into the gospel to arrive at the greed and self centered 'Christianity' on display today and its unfortunate its spreading like wild fire all over Nigeria. It came to Africa and mixed with our recent superstitious past to create the mania on rampage as we see around us.

Unfortunately men and women ruled by their belly and narcissistic desires hijacked it and started peddling it to line their pockets. However the good thing is that there are still many Christians who refused to sell out and they are still leading a lot into true relationship with God.

A Christian indeed will have peace because he'll remember that 'a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things he possesses'. He learns to live his life irrespective of his circumstances. He's not plagued by thoughts of demonic oppressions because he knows that 'greater is he that is in him than he that is in the world'. He knows God is not a vending machine where you can get whatever catches your fancy. He's not a jackpot machine where you slot in some coins in hope of reaping profits. Such a man's faith can never suffer diminishing returns because its based on the eternal love of the father which no calamity or deprivation can sever us from.

True Christian faith isn't based on a better now but on a glorious new after.

christemmbassey: i noticed @Awaystrue anytime, if nt u its Drummaboy, make valid point, she will acuse u of uncivility and u'll apologise and she uses it to hide her inability to adequate response to the valid points raised, she's used this in almost all her conversations.

Aahhh

I just dont like the way this particular thread almost always ends in heated exchanges. If you notice, I didn't post here since like the 35th page because I just got tired. Then I now broke my abstinence and it immediately became Candour was insultive.it didn't make me happy at all so to keep the peace, I apologised so the focus won't move away from the main issue.

I gree no dey tear shirt my bro.

christemmbassey: where did u see anger in my post? D fact dat u ppl are enthusiastic to collect monies from unbelievers and call it offerings to God? Well i know ur style, it works well with Drummaboy, or is it with Candour? I repeat d truth, in christianity, there is NOTHING LIKE OFFERINGS, (if u know what offering really is) what we give in church are contributions to help each other and do the work of God, yes ppl may call it offering for obvious religious reasons and as a tool to force more from unwilling contributors. The real offering was d one u rightly said of Jesus, if God still need our offerings, it means what Jesus offered was not perfect. God bless u dear sister.

Christemmbassey iyo, which style dey work on Candour abeg? Let me learn something new about myself today.

@ashieduplus, a lot of things to speak against and excise from Christianity because they make merchandise of the gospel for which the early Christians paid the supreme price.

Don't worry, when you start your thread on prosperity gospel, I know one or two pro tithers that would join you. they hate unholy things with a passion

@ashieduplus, I hope somebody can debunk your observations on Ola's post. The truth is that no one can unless they are allowed to twist scriptures. How difficult can it be to quote Deut 14:22-29? but easy to jump all the way to Mal 3:8-12.

Ola is saying God expects you to give above 10% that Isreal gave and then stands biblical logic on it'd head by insisting on calling it tithe. Give God 2% 60% 99%, its a freewill giving. It can never be God's tithe. His tithe is exactly 10% of land and animal produce: no more, no less. If you won't follow it, then don't follow at all because you're just bringing strange fire to God's altar.

God bless you jare

Edit: Its obvious why pro tithers were not very visible on Ihedinobi's thoughts on tithing thread.

Zikkyy: It's a spiritual thing, you will not understand. if you having difficulty attaining that level of spirituality, you can sniff some wraps of ......... that should put you in the mood if you need more guidance, consult bro bidam

ashieduplus: ^^^^^^ @ Candour... Don't worry. I'm prepared to wait here with my bible beside me (KJV 1611). I just discovered dat I've been lied to for a quarter of a century. That's long enough!

ThankGod for you my bro.

ashieduplus: This thread has been very insightful I must say, thanks to debosky, bidam, candour, christembassey, ola, enigma, goshen, e.tc.
however I have a few questions for bidam and co.

1. Does Deuteronomy !4 vs 22 refer to Tithe?
2. Can it be regarded as God's tithe?
3. If the answers to the previous questions are affirmative how can we reconcile the scriptures above to tithing as practised today?
4. If tithing applies to us today then can we "eat our tithe" as commanded by God to the Israelites?
5. If we are to tithe today where and to whom should we give the tithe?
6. If we are to tithe according to Abraham and Abraham's tithe preceded the law, then Abraham<s tithe is not the law and is not binding... true or false?

Looking foward to your reply.. God bless you.

I hereby prophesy to you ashieduplus, THOU SHALT WAIT FOR EVER to get answers to these your questions.

ThankGod anyways, some folks are studying their bibles.

Zikkyy: Nobody stopping them from applying their idea of scriptural principle. Most tithers don't comment on tithe threads (probably don't even read). for them, the less they know about tithe the better (probably don't want anything that will distort their belief), no problem with that. It's the tithe preachers we are after cos preaching the giving of % is contrary to what Christ and apostles taught on giving. Airing your views as a tither amounts to spreading the tithe gospel, so expect response from those with a contrary views.

@the bolded is very true. Why would you be scared if you're bearing the truth?

Now I can't help laughing

Many reasons to pay tithe, choose your own

1. Pay tithe so that you can be blessed, bask in good health, have husband, have children, plenty money, avoid calamity according to Mal 3

2. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father according to Gen 14 and Heb 7(I keep wondering how this particular reference could be support for tithe)

3. Pay Tithe to sanctify your finances and honour God according to Prov 3

4. Pay tithe because Jesus said you should pay it according to Matt 23:23

5. Pay tithe because Paul meant tithe in 1Cor 9

The question comes 'what is tithe and whom do you pay it to?' and you get no answer because pro-tithers are afraid of discussing Lev 27, Num 18, Deut 14, Nehemiah 10 where God defined his tithe and stipulated beneficiaries since he's not a man that eats.

The tithe discourse will keep rolling because ignorance or deliberate dishonesty is at play but who will admit it?

It is well jare.

Image123: Another reason why i'm particular about this is one message that Olaa my brother posted, in one of the threads that involved John Kumuyi saga. In that message, Pastor Kumuyi said something about not telling them to do most of the stuff. i understand the desire and forwardness of people to want to live like and behave like their leaders/pastors/teachers, like dressing like them, walking like them, talking like them etc. Could it be a case of following the example of the leaders, these things happen.

For the TV own, I tell you he did preach against members having it in their houses. My dad too thought it was just a question of spending too much time on it so we regulated it in our house until the pastor called him and gave those conditions point blank.

You're right about the dressing issue because all they preach is modesty and the women just adopted Biodun Kumuyi:s style. Even the pastors all trief to adopt Kumuyi's voice and mannerisms when preaching

Image123: Do ou have ANY proof that he preached against it? For me, i do not know if he did. That is why i am asking those that are assertin that he did if they truly heard, saw or read Kumuyi say so, or it is just hearsay. i am aware many deeperlifers didn't watch TV at a time, also aware that some still do not BTW. But nobody ever told me that Kumuyi told them not to. They ave reasons why they do not or didn't, none of the reasons was ever Kumuyi. AGAIN, i ask, is there any link or proof that Kumuyi said all his church members should not watch or own TV, or this is just hearsay, rumour, legend?

Well I heard him very well preach against it just as Pastor Timi Amatare and Pastor Ighalo after him in Rivers state. We listened a lot to Kumuyi on tapes called life tapes then whenever we want to have a uniform message. Then 'life tapes' pre-recorded were despatched ahead to all region or district or zonal headquarters as the case maybe. Changes started coming when they started using projectors and white cloth to transmit Kumuyi's messages from Lagos to all churches. It will be a pleasant surprise if all those old messages have been put online for people to access now.

You're right about some still not using TV till now. Ask them, it was preached against then.

Image123: Kunle, you said that Kumuyi banned his members from WATCHING and OWNING tvs. Candour said something different, about house fellowship and worker in the 90s, and somethings about his THINKING.
I need some form of proof that KUMUYI told hischurch members not to watch or own tv. Is this based on hearsay or false witnessing. Jesus said somethings that were similar to but misconstrued by his false witnesses

Haba image!! Somebody tells you can't be a worker in church or host house fellowship because you own TV and you say its not as good as banning them? What would convince you? Sure you're not expecting a picture of G.S using koboko on recalcitrant members?

Every adult in Nigeria knows deeperlifers didn't watch or own TV in the eighties and nineties because pastor William Folorunsho Kumuyi preached against it .

Pls drop this argument.

Image123: There is absolutely no need for this and its like. You do not have to tie his teaching or views to his being a pastor or whatever, or to his denomination. He has not said anything to suggest this correlation, why the sentimental behaviou?

Hmm image, don't milk it nau, I've apologised to Jo already

Pastor Kun: Thanx for coming out to testify about this TV issue that some hypocrites are trying to distort facts about. Even Kumuyi cannot come out to deny this ban on TVs in the past of DL yet some human beings are trying to deny this fact here. On the issue of Kumuyi being a sound bible teacher, I beg to disagree,. If he was so sound there won't be so many errors in his messages, he is at best a very compulsive teacher. On the issue of humility again this is very subjective as there is nothing humble about the huge mega cathedral he is building in gbagada and the other one at there current head office. Also there is nothing humble about the state of the art SUVs Kumuyi uses.

I guess I can't argue with you. Its been a long time I stopped following DLBC closely but from all indications, everybody don dey wake up even my papa sef dey enjoy plasma for his parlour now

I still enjoy Kumuyi sha. Maybe I'm suffering from hero worship syndrome make God help me

Joagbaje: Pls don't insult me . I don't live by people tithe. I have my business and i guve to God and I give to people. If you can't discuss without getting personal ,I may not respond to you again . Cheers

Eyya...this is what I wanted to avoid by resisting joining this particular conversation .

Joagbaje, pls accept my unreserved apology for any insult you might have felt.

My sister Alwaystrue, you and I have had discussions here and you know my style and I know yours at least to some extent. Its not my style to insult people no matter how we may disagree. Any insult you feel was not intended.

Cheers

Image123: You said "I just remembered he once labelled the TV as the devil's box and banned his members from watching and owning TVs."
Is this hearsay, false witness or falsehood or it is something that you can prove? Because i happen to know deeperlife members who have TV and they have had TVs in their churches for years now. Can you post any evidence, like a book Kumuyi wrote, or a youtube link, or a message or cassette with title and date?

Actually image, I was in DLBC from 1986 to 1999(my dad is still there) and my father was asked to remove the TV from our house if he wanted the house fellowship to continue in his house and still remain a worker in church. He complied in 1990.

In fact even Coke was anathema to deeper life initially because of the caffeine content before it was relaxed. Get hold of the book with title 'The extraordinary growth of the Deeper life bible Church' . A story of deeper life written by an American church historian in 1988. I think Kumuyi made reference to these issues and concluded by saying 'when I was a child, I thought like a child'

Anyways that Kumuyi is a model of Christian humility is not in doubt and even his antagonists would conceed he's a good bible teacher. I guess nobody has it 100%. Which is why the bible is still the best guide; NOT MAN

Joagbaje: I'm talking about ordained ministers. Or whoever is delegated .

No problems Joagbaje

At least folks who hitherto didn't fully understand their bibles can come to this thread to get some answers. You being a pastor, no one expects you to give up this cash cow without a fight no matter how dirty.

Cheers

Joagbaje: Let me explain something to you. The levite ,priest etc are ministers to Gods people . The 5 fold ministry are ministers to Gods people .its as simple as that.

Meaning Sunday school teachers, house fellowship teachers, ushers, choir etc can administer the tithe since they are ministers as well. its as simple as that. yea right

No need to insults ,the word of God does not require fleshly abuse .

I'm sorry my bro. Didn't mean to insult you but I find your assertions to be very untrue.

Joagbaje: Both we are not following Levitical structure. But they contain some shadows for illustration.



Doesn't make sense. The ministers do that as his representative. The importtant thing is thst we give God our tithe. the structure if collection is not the issue. the structure in the days if abrahsm was not exactly thesame under the law. We are not giving tithes according to the law or levitical structure .we are seed of Abraham and we follow the faith of Abraham . tithes and offerings are eternal principles. What of offerings. So Christians shouldn't give offerings because Jesus gets nothing ? Does it make any sense?



If you must adapt the Old Testament structure for illustration. The isrealites are the congregation. The Levites are staffs and the priests are ordained ministers.

@the bolded.

So how do you explain ministry gifts listed in Eph 4:11 with a clear omission of PRIEST?

Bro Joagbaje, this I'm afraid is you being very dishonest and its very sad.

Alwaystrue: ^^^^^^
see as 'deductions' took place here. ...deduction of the first part of the scripture Paul said on 'ministers of the temple' which happened to house the storehouse. But conveniently ministers of the altar was picked though he mentioned both to drive his point home.
Yet Paul explained this and in later scriptures the tithe of Abraham.

1Cor 9:13
'Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the Temple? and they which wait at the Altar are partakers with the altar?

Actually my dear sister, Paul also noted the demarcation hence his use of Temple in the first part and Altar in the second. I believe we all can agree all Levites minister at the temple but only priests get to the Altar? Was Christ also being dishonest when he noted the difference in Luke 10:31-32 in the good Samaritan story?

Offering of fruit of the lips, and to think the OT bears witness to this but we have claims that offerings have not been changed to this with no proof. Wow.

The priesthood of Israel shown in the NT was shown way back in Exodus about Israel to be a holy nation, peculiar creation and kingdom of priests. Lol.
I can understand now how people no longer see spiritual principles in the bible or rather chose that which they want.
Good morning all.

@the bolded, does that mean you now agree with shdemidemi that Peter wrote only to Jews? since you're obviously referring to 1Peter 2:9? This would mean you're saying 1Peter 2:9 was not talking to you abi? That means you agree not all scripture is written to you. How will this affect the argument about Matt chapter 23?

Also note that among the ministry gifts of Eph 4:11, PRIESTS are not mentioned

Image123: ayoku and co, you might ne needing many translations, concordance and maybe Strong's for this.

Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites ,and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe . 18:27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress. 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.

i want to believe that all the folks that liked ayoku's post truly nd sincerely did not know this verse above. God help us.

I honestly had promised myself not to join this particular conversation after all my earlier posts on this same thread but this post from bro image highlights the ignorance some of my brethren display about the priesthood for whom God instituted tithes.

From the bolded portions of the reference you quoted, its very obvious God demarcated between the Levites and the Priests represented by the high priest. Levites NOT priests own tithes. Levites give 10% of the 10% they collect from Israelites to the family of the priests represented by high priest. In effect priests get only 1% of the tithes.

Neh 10:37-38
'And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the PRIESTS to the chambers of the house of our God: and the TITHES of our ground unto the LEVITES that the same LEVITES might have the TITHES in all the cities of our tillage. 38.And the PRIEST the son of Aaron shall be with the LEVITES when the levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house'

From the bolded portions, you can see how God demarcated the Levites from the priests and what he apportioned specifically to each of them. Except a person wants to be DELIBERATELY fraudulent, there is no way you can gloss over that demarcation. Only those officiating at the altar are called priests and they are entitled to only offerings brought to the altar. Those who do other service in and around the sanctuary are called Levites and they alone own the tithes. However they must give 10% of the tithe they collect to the priests and this is referred to as an offering in Num 18:27-28.

In fact now I understand what Paul meant by those serving at the altar partake of the altar: only offerings and 10% of tithes ever make it to the altar. This shows that Paul didn't have tithes in mind when he penned 1Cor 9:13

Ihedinobi: I totally agree that it is no modesty that the keepers or messengers of a church should be in affluence when many of those whom they keep are in need. But I was focused on only that part of your statement that I quoted to illuminate something: that it isn't how much a person has that decides whether they are content or not and it isn't how they use what they have that decides whether they're modest. Contentment and modesty are determined by context: how does the person in question relate to their environment, social and otherwise?

So a pastor who has millions and rides his own private jets is not a wicked shepherd for all that. He is a wicked shepherd for having all that when there are those under his wings who barely feed well, barely provide enough for their children, barely cover their unclothedness etc etc. He is the point of distribution. A pastor is a shepherd. It is his job to make sure that the children of God are well provided for in everything just like a shepherd is responsible to ensure that the sheep in his charge are properly fed and provided for in everything and safe from all harm .

Ihedinobi, I send you a million holy kisses for the bolded part.

This is what I wish and pray Christendom will realise today. If we can't imbibe the spirit of distribution, how do we show we are Christlike?

Meanwhile I agree that modesty is subjective

I think I can rest my case.

God bless you my dear brother.

Ihedinobi: Fair questions I'm sure but I was not making a case at all in that part of my post that I need to defend. I was pointing out something wrong about a position. I don't intend to discuss tithing on this thread.

Regardless, answers to your questions will bring us back to something I've already insinuated: that the case against tithing that some people try to make is based on inferences, reasonable or not, rather than clear, unambiguous statements from the New Testament which are what these particular anti-tithers demand of pro-tithers. Do you get my point now?

No problems bro. I respect your decision not to discuss it here.

God bless us all as we follow the thread and learn.

nnady chuks: My pastor never preached about this before

My pastors never told me too. When I discovered the reference, I couldn't help but wonder if it was ignorance or plain dishonesty on their part.

Well thank God I discovered it .......the rest is history