₦airaland Forum

Image123: Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Moses seat smply means the position of authority, legislature, as judge, interpreting the law. They were the Sanhedrin. The followers of Jesus are expected to obey leadership/constituted authority. The powers that be are ordained of God. The pharisees were the leaders and elders of Israel and were to be held in that regard. Children of God are not to become so pompous that they do not regard/respect authority for whatever reasn e.g corruption, hypocrisy, immorality etc. A true chrstian cannot/should not insult or abuse presidents r governors or administrators whether on paper or other media. Nevertheless, we are not to behave like them. Respet and obedience des not mean that you have to behave like them. We can be the Daniels and Esthers and Nehemiahs of our own generation.
Beware of the leaven of Herod nd of the pharisees.

i Disagree with you bro. Jesus meant exactly that 'all whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do'. It means every single law or ordinance coming out from their mouths or quills must be obeyed. It is not about respect but about unalloyed obedience.

Those same Daniels, Esthers and Nehemiahs were ardent keepers of the law of Moses

Don't dilute our LORD's statement

Image123: Wonderful. i observed that these 613 laws are from Genesis to Deuteronomy. -i'm guessing we can freely quote outside that, like malachi and nehemaih and co and we would not be harrassed for trying to obey some 613.
Among the 613, i noticed to know that there is a God, do not murder, do not steal, do not curse father and mother. Forgot to even check for tithe, sorry, i will go back to check. Now, i know that i obey this four. Is there any f these four that you also obey? If yes, which? Thanks, and please stop constantly comparing me to bidam or anyone. We are all fearfully and wonderfully created and should not incite others to envy, jealousy or its likes, please. If there are corrections you want to make, go n and make them one on one. God bless you.

you know you are the one who keeps reminding me of the MOSAIC LAW OF TITHING so i decided to help you be a more faithful law keeper by letting you know there were 613.

My new nature subject to the law of love will not let me steal, curse, murder etc.

Let me help you with some you might check to see if you keep

Deut 22:11
'Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woolen and linen together.

Deut 21:18,21
'If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:...........21. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die:so shalt thou put evil away from among you: and all isreal shall hear, and fear'

Lev 19:27
'Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard'

Deut 22:9 says don't plant different seeds together in the same land

Just check the list, you'll see more

Don't worry about inciting jealousy. No body is a child here

Image123: First paragraph has nothing to do with what Jesus said or the context of the words of Jesus. Lets not lump things up.


Matthew 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Here is a ceremonial law that lepers were told to follow to ascertain their well being. Lepers were cut off from the populace and unclean. They had to go to the priests to be certified clean and free to mingle with society. Today too, their is nohing wrong with obeying constituted authority like doctor's report, birth or death certificate, driver's licence, referral forms etc. They are no God's primary laws but are necessary for the society.

Leviticus 14:11 And the priest that maketh him clean shall present the man that is to be made clean, and those things, before the LORD, at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

Jesus still wants us to obey the law of whtever land we are in as long as it does no oppose God like idolatry or something.

i brought in what happened at Jesus birth so as to show you what he evidently subscribed to. As at when my Lord was a baby, it didn't diminish his Deity. If he was made to pass through it as a baby, It is something he would agree with as an adult. Did or would Jesus Christ have endorsed bringing 2 pigeons @ dedication. an emphatic YES is the answer.

Lev 14:4-5
'Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: 5. And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water'

my bro, what Christ asked him to do was more than getting a doctors report. He had take the the birds to the priest and perform rituals with them before being certified clean. read from Lev 14:1-11

Lev 14:1
'And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,'

It was the LORD GOD speaking here so i dont know what you mean by primary laws. These so-called ceremonial laws are in the same category with tithes so which one is primary laws?

Enigma: Ihe bros

It's always a pleasure to participate in good natured and good spirited threads like these amidst all the madness in the forum and considering the imbroglios I often allow myself to get roped into. Trust you are doing well, bro.

For insight, permit me to copy from two old threads of mine.

A. "Who is a tither"? https://www.nairaland.com/744234/please-vote-tither#msg9003450

B. "Who is robbing God?" https://www.nairaland.com/747403/another-poll-robbing-god


Here are examples of three Christian givers. (I am using just three examples but people can figure out that there are myriad permutations)

1. Mr A earns 1000 a month; unfailingly he gives 100 a month as "tithe" in/to "church"; he gives 50 a month as offering; he then gives up to 20 to other needy causes outside "church".

2. Mr B earns 1000 a month; he gives anything up to 90 in/to church every month, he then gives 110 to other needy causes outside the "church".

3. Mrs C is a seller of "provisions"; any time that she is going to buy stock, she buys 10% extra (e.g. instead of buying 100 cans of milk, she buys 110); she regularly takes the extra 10% to her local orphanage; she then gives about 5% of her net profits in/to "church".

in line with this post by Enigma, let me relate a small story that helped me greatly in my search for the truth about tithing. A colleague told me he painted the scenario to his pastor when they were discussing about tithes in sunday school.

He told the pastor to assume his(the pastor) wife was pregnant and was rushed in to surgery on Saturday night. The hospital demanded an upfront fee of 100,000 naira before they would commence surgery. Pastor now rushes to brother M's house being close to the clinic to borrow money and brother M explains he doesn't have any personal money at home. Before the pastor could gather the money from other sources and rush back to Hospital, the wife was dead. Then this same brother who had no money to give pastor dances to the altar on Sunday morning to pay his tithe of a little above 100,000 naira cash.

The brother said he asked the pastor what he'll do? the pastor couldn't answer him in front of the congregation. instead, he asked for a private meeting in his office and when he got there, the pastor told brother M that if it ever happened like that, he(the pastor) will never forgive brother M. Pastor admitted he couldn't say that in open church so as not to discourage tithers.

This story actually got me thinking about how love can be absent when you want to keep the law as they are meant to be kept because i believed i would have done exactly as the brother in the story with my understanding then.

Image123: errmmm, i did not pick only tithe, the thread boiled down to only tithe. Can i see this particular list of laws, i keep hearing the number. Can we have them on this thread, thanks.

haba Image, which kind work you wan give me so? Just pick your bible and start reading from Exodus 12:43 down to Deut 27:26. The laws come intermittently. I'm sure you'll get most of them if not all if you do it painstakingly. you can Google it up yourself or visit the link below for a comprehensive gist about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

cheers and happy reading

Bidam: hahahaha,this guy you funny.i sensed it after i typed cos you took long in replying.Anyway drumma has been this way since we started the tithe argument,If you follow our arguments i always ignore him,it was of recent i decided to put my foot down.

No wahala. just chill you hear

cheers

Bidam: cheers..abeg warn your bro..make hin thread softly o..I have a militant spirit.I have been keeping quiet of late.

If he's my bro, is he not your bro too? everybody get militant spirit shey you know ?

But really we all get on each other's nerves so much that we shouldn't even talk to ourselves again but we must learn to shrug them off. I am not a violent person but the only time i stabbed somebody in school was when a close friend cracked a joke about my mum to tell you how i feel about her. She's somebody i practically worship but you fell foul of it today. I had to understand that you didn't mean it like that so i calmed myself down even before you apologized.

It's all about bearing each other's weaknesses bro

Chill Bidam, losing your temper wont solve any problems

cheers and God bless you

Bidam: Just checked everyone grows in knowledge and dimension the Spirit gives him.I never mince words that tithing is a form of giving which as an OT can principled in the NT.The point i don't agree is below 2%. like i told you earlier i tithe my prayers,time,money,study of the bible etc..to God as a principle.That's the way God taught me.BTW I GO ABOVE THE 10%

Good for you then. Since it's according to knowledge and dimension of the Spirit, i wish you the best with it.

Cheers bro

@Drummaboy, pls avoid the name calling pls. this thread should put to bed plenty of the issues that raise arguments among Christians on Nairaland.

let us not allow it degenerate

thanks

Bidam: Sometimes you talk as if you re deluded and need to see a psychiatrist.Are you well at all

sheesh Bidam, even here? you disrespect Ihedinobi with this abuse and insult pls. If you feel offended he pointed @ you, pls tell him plainly. Ihe just did a wonderful piece that explains a lot of things. Pls let us not allow it turn into one of 'those threads'

Cheers

Bidam: You said 613 laws. And i pointed out the fact that there are still some laws jews and gentiles adhere to even though they are operating the new covenant .Your argument is weak,later you go dey accuse me say i dey jump from one thing to the other.Jesus talked about marriage,resurrection and so many other things to the pharisee which differ from the laws of Moses.Remember Jesus was accused of changing the laws of Moses and teaching the people to adhere to the laws He taught that was why He was crucified.

And i believe you know as well as i do that Jesus primary purpose was to fulfill the intent of the law.Right from when Adam sinned in the garden of eden, obedience was what God was simply after and not the sacrifice of the animal skin He used to cover their unclothedness. Even now when we have the Holy Spirit, obedience is always the key to fulfill God's righteous requirements.

Look at this scripture: For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us,to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; acts 15:28.

In order words the Holy Spirit(God's Spirit) can lay certain laws,codes or demands in the hearts of believers to follow.That is the obedience i am talking about,failure of which is tantamount to sinning against God.Remember Jesus had gone to the cross,died and resurrected when this event took place,so if Jesus abolished all laws like you erroneously claimed,why are believers instructed to follow certain laws in the NT?

Bidam.....events have already overtaken these your questions. They've been answered already on this thread and other similar threads in the past and going over them again will be cumbersome.

Ihedinobi just did a wonderful treatise which i endorse. I think you should check it out.

Cheers

aManFromMars: Lmao... no be my fault o.. I've not been to my church here in India since Xmas 11. It's an Indian church. The pastor and everyone kept calling me for the first few months. A friend's finally convinced me to go this Sunday, at least to mend bridges.. I was quite close to the family. Only GOD know as I go use handle the situation on Sunday. Lie? Say the truth? They'd be depressed. I led most of the Africans here to that church.

@the bolded, then what went wrong? i read your deconversion story and feel i could understand the reason for your present stance but i still have questions.We've almost derailed this thread and i doubt Ihedinobi will be pleased with us. Maybe we could chat off Nairaland some other time if its ok by you.

Cheers bro

aManFromMars: Candour, which day you go invite me come Church?

hmmm..... bro Muskeeto, you know the problem with inviting somebody like you to my church is that you already know the bible more than my pastor. Let me not invite you now u come turn my pastor to your follower.....wetin i go tell my God?

aManFromMars: Summary of this section.

correct bro

cheers

Ihedinobi: God could care less what percentage of one's wealth a person gives of their new wealth to say thank you for His beneficence to them. What He cares about is that His beneficence does not terminate with any receiver. He built His world to run in cycles. At each new stop, what He first gave must increase in value and move on, not get hoarded.

That is His Way. God insists on increasing value and exchange of value. He hates what I call "holes" or "sinks", value-traps that break cycles. When someone has benefited another in some way, it is God's Will that they be replenished somehow. And the receiver must themselves give out too. No one person or group of persons may hoard value. That is accursed. It is how spiritual cancer cells are formed.

The spiritual principle of the tithe is this: nobody who serves spiritually may lack and no poor among the brethren must be neglected. The principle is not the percentage, it is the function.

TBC

Bro Ihedinobi, with this treatise you wrote, i believe it settles a lot of things. the bolded is what i take as the koko of the whole tithe discourse. God almighty wants us who are blessed and privileged with the material things of the world to cater for those who DO NOT HAVE. Be they clergy or laity. This is why Jesus Christ said what was written in Matt 25:35-40. I don't need to reproduce it here. We all can read it on our own.

whether 10%, 80% or 2%, give from your heart willingly and to cause a positive impact in your neighbor's life particularly those of the household of faith.

This isn't about winning an argument, Its about allowing God to work good in us and through us. It's about allowing our true liberty in Christ to show.

God bless you bro and i mean it from the bottom of my heart.

Bidam: sorry about your mum,just wanted to drive home a point.What do you understand between obedience and sacrifice?

apologies accepted.

as to your question,(even though you've not answered mine) believe me when i say i dont understand. I know it arose from Saul and Samuel's spat but kindly let me know what the difference is.

Bidam: The beauty of the christian faith is that you re at liberty not to follow the words of Jesus.If you don't tithes that's ok.I have never seen any pastor forcing people at gun point to give offerings talk more of tithing.It's a personal thing really,the heart is where your treasure lies. Why are you so much fixated about it? May be you feel angry because your mum tithe? Let God be the judge of her actions not you.God knows the heart of men.

There are so many things about God we don't know. and pls don't claim tithing is unchristian.That's a boastful error that leads to spiritual blasphemy.

hmm....you referenced my mum in a manner i do not appreciate.hmmm.... I'll let that pass but pls, kindly keep our discussions to the two of us. I could reference things from your own past posts on other threads that you might not appreciate coming here so pls lets keep our eyes on the ball. Thanks for understanding.

i've no anger about anything friend. i wonder why you too are so fixated on the tithe issue since its not a weightier matter of the law. If it's not important, why not skip it?

TITHING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A CHRISTIAN BOUGHT WITH THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB. When you say a Christian ought to tithe, you also blaspheme the priceless blood of Christ as not able to cover all requirements of the law.

cheers

Bidam: You can see why i said you are getting emotionally excited.You couldn't even reply my post logically because you re getting hyped up.Best i stop here before you develop hypertension.

Hahahahaha

Very funny indeed

[quote author=Bidam][/quote]My dear, the only time you can stop me quoting you is when you stop posting. I always knew its only an extraterrestrial with supernatural powers that will understand your posts. My apologies Mr Smart

If you are obsessing about Goshen so much, pls tell him directly, why mention it to me?

If your high priest eats tithe, good for you. Mine does not eat tithes and doesn't need tithes so tell that to the marines.

You're free to dislike everything I say friend. If you can't stomach them, quit the thread if you will. Its actually your call.

Bidam: Mixing what .You are the one who loves derailing threads na. we are talking about scriptural obedience to tithing we Jesus says to do.
Is Jesus moses Did Jesus says you should tithe or not?
And where in my discussion did you see me refer to money as tithe? SMH! you just love inferring sha.
Did you see me say money is your tithe?
Neither is Jesus a levite.we all agree that our tithe is to Jesus as per the new covenant abi no be so?Stop comparing God in the flesh with his messengers abeg.
Such a shame and a waste of time here.Go back and read hebrews ok?

You ran away from this thread earlier on. Immediately you saw image here, you ran back. A simple question from me, you started flying in different directions. Check again and see who the chief derailer is.

So you don't pay money as your tithe? That's good because finally you're showing to be a good follower of Moses.

You are the one who said Jesus now collects your tithe NOT ME. My position all along is that a Christian bought by the blood of Christ has no business with any form of tithing so if you're confused about that, get that cleared now. CHRISTIANS HAVE NO BUSINESS WITH TITHE

All my discussion with image that you jumped into has all being based on this point: that I'll assume Christians should pay tithe. Go back and see where I started with image and you'll see this to be true.

Even with the assumption, your arguments fall through the cracks. Once again, go through my discussion with image

You've always known my position so why trying to be smart?

Bidam: .In nigeria we answer questions with question to drive home a point.atleast i learnt that from shdemidemi. .I asked why God(Jesus should make an example of tithing when talking to the jews in his day). Or putting it this way.He is the same God that instituted the covenants.Why should tithing stand out among many others.

Express your gratitude to shdemidemi for teaching you something new then.

You and I have chatted earlier on this thread and I answered some questions from you. Now I ask you one question and you ignore it and expect me to answer yours. Haba!!

Why do you keep disobeying Matt 23:1-3?

Bidam: Which yeye scrutiny? The bible is not subject to your private interpretations. Moreso the change of law doesn't necessary mean the moral laws in the tablet of stone is completely abolished, we can see the principles of this in the NT and so is tithing.

The only thing i don't see in the NT is the ceremonial regulations which Jesus came to do away with.You re the guy not rightly dividing scriptures. Not me

You say 613 laws? We even see Paul quoting some of these laws to validate his points concerning things Gentiles are to adhere to.
We see the Apostles quoting some of these laws in Acts 15:29. Now who is fooling who? SMH!!

Keep shaking your head as long as you don't mix up what we are discussing

Read my reply to Image up there. If you can't or won't, read Matt 8:4 with lev 14:3-4. Also read Luke 2:23-24 with Lev 12:2,8 and see some laws Jesus endorsed apart from the ones on tables of stone so pls stop your selective obedience to Mosaic law.

If you can't keep these, then stop insisting on others to keep the one that has to do with money.

You even corrupt God's tithe when you bring money in case you don't know. Money was in existence in Abram's time, yet he gave spoils of war. Money was in existence in Moses time, yet God insisted on farm and animal produce.

Your pastor isn't a levite or a priest so he has no right to any tithe whatsoever. Youll soon tell me Jesus collected tithes when you know clearly that he is of Judah. You think Elijah and other prophets of OT had access to tithes?

Is your pastor a priest or a levite?

Bidam: Go back to the beginning of the thread and learn a thing or two about the covenants.Then we can talk. I did answer your question.

I read it and I understand it. Now I advice you do same.

You did not answer my question bro. The question is why do you disobey Matt 23:1-3? Show me where you answered it or put the answer here and I'll answer yours

Bidam my bro. It is well

Bidam: The bible has been in existence long before you were born oga..God is not your mate..Since Jesus says(not pastor) to tithe.I damn well will tithe.

Phew......is my friend getting worked up? Relax pls

Go ahead and tithe all you want, I'm not stopping you but when you bring it to a public forum like this, you subject your views to scrutiny which is what I'm doing right now

Bidam: Never mind.You love playing to the gallery.You don't have the answer.

And you have the answer to mine abi?

Bidam: Me boxed? Are you dreaming? . You are the one getting your priorities misplaced here.First love your God then love your neighbors.

I love my God dear friend just as you say you love him too. I only know my pastor isn't my God, neither is he a levite or a priest so I don't mix things up.

Bidam: Nope, i am not.
Because it predates the Law.now answer this question:Why should Jesus use tithe as an example out of the 613laws of the pharisees?

So am i.

I will answer after you answer my own question.

Why are u disobeying our Lord's injunction in Matt 23:1-3?

I'll answer yours when you answer mine

Bidam: They means exactly they. I am not mincing words.BTW you refuse to reply my post.Why should Jesus use tithe as an example out of the 613laws of the pharisees?
Anytime you read your bible,try to see the spirit of the intent of what Jesus is saying.

Jesus rebuked the hypocrisy of the pharisees since they lacked inward virtues such as judgement,mercy and faith(may be this teaching is only applicable to his disciples and pharisees and is not applicable to you abi?).

Jesus never belittle tithing nor does he says it is passing away.What Jesus is telling you candour is that you should maintain both inward character (faith,love,justice,etc) and outward obedience,such as tithing.

How many of my questions have you answered?

When you get boxed into a corner, you start using spirit to cover face.

The same reason you refuse to obey Matt 23:1-3 is the same reason I don't follow Matt 23:23. Or is it not Jesus that spoke in both references?

The spirit of the law you keep talking about but don't understand is love. Love tells me to share with others less privileged, it doesn't hound me with a fixed rate.

Bidam: This is a cop out for religious laziness.Did Jesus says to tithe or not?

You are the one using escapist tactics bro and it marks of biblical dishonesty.

All 613 laws to keep according to Matt 23:1-3, why insist on only one called tithe?

My bro, we could go on and on o if you wish. I am more interested in other viewers of this thread so let's educate them together

Image123: Thank God oh Bidam, though we still need to intercede so that the likes of Gosh can stop posting ridiculous jargon as the above. How would any follower of Jesus say we should not and cannot follow the words of Jesus. i guess we should follpw him instead or we should hope on him to instruct us on which one to follow nd which one is rubbish. i'm expecting some christains that will like his post as well, so ludicrous i initially chose not to believe my eyes or comment on it.

When Jesus was presented in the temple as a baby, his mother offered 2 pigeons in deference to the laws of Moses(Lev 12:1-3, Luke 2:23-24). How many pigeons or turtle doves do your church members bring during dedication?

When Jesus cleansed a leper in Matt 8:4, he asked him to go to the priest and obey the law of Moses (Lev 14:4). Do those healed of leprosy in your church bring these items? If you say no leper has been cured in your church, if they get cured tommorow, will you ask them to obey this law since Christ expressly ORDERED this cured man to obey this law?

My bro, the cross made all the difference and that is what you MUST realise

Bidam: Can you quote the 613 laws Jesus says to observe in the 4 synoptic gospels? I bet you can't. Let's start with woe. Read the matthew 23 account and be free.

My dear you are the one who said Christ asked you to tithe NOT ME. I then said if Christ spoke to us in Matt 23:23, then he must have directed Matt 23:1-3 to us as well and there he said KEEP ALL LAWS OF MOSES, SCRIBES, PHARISEES, so tell me as a dutiful law keeper,how many do u keep?

You quote the tithe law consistently, how come you forgot the others?

You're the law keeper abi? Tell me the other laws you keep beside tithe

Bidam: Thank God,they are now shifting.

Bidam, you're trying too hard.next time know the difference between Candour's post and Goshen's