₦airaland Forum

Zikkyy: My view:

The law written on our heart is not a list of dos and don'ts (e.g. the law of Moses), it is a nature. It is what we have become (as true Christians). What is written on our heart is not the list (of dos and don'ts) but the source of that list itself. It is more complete (it cannot be quantified) because they is always a natural reaction to every situation. When you live by a list, you will need to do some scanning to identify the specific part of the law you be contravening (or required) for any situation So, by saying the law of moses is abolished one is not saying the Christian is now lawless, he has taken up a nature from which the law was sourced.

The law (of moses) is like the traffic light at the junction (with camera and traffic police to ensure compliance and sanction offenders), it is there to ensure order and protection of lives and properties (for those that ordinarily will not stop or care about other road users). The man that is by nature disciplined and have respect/concern for life will by nature approach the junction with care/caution (with or without the traffic light/police). This was why Paul stated that the law is good (for maintaining law & order) and is meant for criminals (law breakers), but it is not for the righteous. Any man that respond to an external requirement (i.e. the law of moses) does so based on the belief that he will be sanctioned for non-compliance (or may not reap the benefit resulting from compliance).

God bless you Zikky.

This is the shortest straight to the point explanation i have seen on this subject. Christ said all the law hangs on LOVE. He that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. I don't think there's anything more to add.

God bless you again brother

striktlymi: I believe you can do that using your debit card (mastercard) if you have one. See https://secure.kcm.org/contribute/

But I am quite curious to know why you chose his ministry as against many others (especially NGO's) we have here in Nigeria.

I'm curious too as to why KCM when there are needs all around him in Nigeria here. This is more so when you keep hearing how KCM is so rich that he has given out 26 private jets as gifts to people and organisations around the world. I heard this story countless times during my stay in LFC. Maybe the poster wants to help him give out the 27th jet.

I honestly await the day a pastor will ask people to stop bringing money because he now has enough after all, God told the Israelites to stop bringing for the tabernacle when there was enough materials for its construction.

Knowing them however, they'll say keep bringing so God can bless u heads or tails, they win

God help us indeed

Of course Kumuyi can't be swayed by the fear mongers because he knows whom he believes and realises his redeemer is not into hell film shows

I hope his followers and others heed his advice

sessydoo: I have followed every arguement on this topic with keen interest, its an eye-opener and very informative. I have always argued that the new covenant xtians are under the "law of giving" and NOT the "law of tithing" he that sows sparingly shall reap sparingly and he that giveth bountifully shall reap bountifully. Every man should sow according to his measure of grace n blessings not being cajoled that it is only when u give ur 10%, dat u will be blessed. However I understand many pastors have used the law of tithing to manage their resouces n income, God will help us. Meanwhile it is important to emphasize that tithe or no tithing, its just for your own benefit, that will not take any man to heaven. What will take xtians to heaven is their salvation, which we are all encouraged to work out with fear and trembling and holiness without which no man shall see God. It will be very nice if today's men of God (who have turned themselves to gods of men) can lay more emhpazy on this all-impotant truth, the way they emphasize tithing. The problem with the new breed of xtians is that they are too lazy to study the word of God themselves and so they swallow evry message from their GOs hook, line n sinker without checking with the scriptures. May God help us....shallom

Thank God for you bro.

may God continually increase you in the knowledge of his word and revelation of his abundant grace.

God bless you plenty

Bidam: oGA!!This is not about challenge but about unwarranted attacks on me which you and others have been guilty of on this forum since i don't buy your views on the tithe issue.And in this case i can rightly say you are guilty of 1 COR4 :5
Joagbaje did not say it in this thread, you did.
I am not the one calling you a liar.It is actually scriptures if you judge a christian wrongly.Even if it is on tithe issues.

ok then uncle oGA!!, i guess you and i can rest now since you've had your say?

Cheers

Bidam: The onus is on you to point out the so called self contradictions don't you think? You made the allegations without substantial proof to back it up. Ok,why not show us where i said that?You are the one to dig the past na..And it was baseless cos it lacks merit,any good bible scholar can see that.
Joagbaje thought he was correcting me based on his understanding of that scripture.Like i said if you think say na error.na you sabi.You brought it up here not me.
You started it. I want to see it to it's logical conclusion or else you'll be labelled a liar here.
Thanks a lot brother.

Hi Bidam, i refuse to take up the challenge. i repeat, the last time i did on OLAADEGBU's Tithe and offerings thread, you said i lack a sense of humour and i dont want you to attack my sense of humour again.

I've made my point. Joagbaje rightly corrected you. you can get him to recant, maybe he'll oblige you but for me, he was in order there.

Go ahead, label me a liar if you will It wont be a big deal

cheers bro

Let me help you list the people going to hell with these conditions

USERS OF ATTACHMENT - Living faith, Christ Embassy, modern RCCG, KICC, TREM, and most of those churches in abuja, lagos and port harcourt

USER OF COSMETICS - this should include all manner of creams apart from vaseline abi? so all the above listed churches + Some MFM, DLBC, Chosen etc, that is anybody that can afford a good cream

USERS OF ORNAMENT - Living faith, Christ Embassy, modern RCCG, KICC, TREM etc

WOMEN EXPOSING THEIR HEAD IN THE CHURCH - Living faith, Christ Embassy, modern RCCG, KICC, TREM

WOMEN DRESSING IN A WAY TO SEDUCE THE OPPOSITE SEX - you can list these yourself abeg

MEN/WOMEN THAT DIVORCE HIS/HER FIRST WIFE AND REMARRY - hmm....not sure o

WOMEN THAT PUT ON MEN'S WEARS - Living faith, Christ Embassy, modern RCCG, KICC, TREM etc

LIPSTICK - all of them jare

MASTURBATION - hmm......abeg do it yourself

PEOPLE WHO HONOR MARY AS GOD - haba Catholics you mean abi?

PASTOR WHO REFUSE TO PREACH THE FACT (EVEN IF THEY ARE HOLY, BUT FAIL TO PREACH THE TRUTH) - i'm sure every one

My bro, almost all churches are in trouble be dat o

Bidam: Sorry had to comment on this.Thank God you changed it to tithe for christian thread before i could comment. Moreso i still maintain my stand that without the patriarchs we can't be perfected.It is just like you having two legs and one leg is cut off.Can you walk with one leg? of cos you will hobble but not walk. The patriarchs showed us the way of faith which was an example we should emulate and follow.Though they did not obtain the promise.We who received the promise of the FATHER(Holy Spirit) are much more in a better advantageous position to run the race and finish it than they.Whichever way you look at it,they are still waiting for us to be made perfect and without them we can't also be perfect.That is what Paul called ONE BODY AND Christ is the head of that BODY while God is the head of Christ. I explained that in the tithe tread,well if you see it as error na you sabi. Maybe you will understand with time.

Asper changing positions,it might do you a whole lot of good to understand a writers post before jumping to conclusions.Could you kindly show me where i changed positions? If you can't then i will label this as a false accusation. Stay blessed.

Go through all your posts again if you will and you'll see those self contradictions. The last time you asked me to point them out, i did and you accused me of lacking a sense of humour so i wont waste time going to dig up anything. i only referenced the 'perfected' issue because it's very recent and sure you didn't deny it.

well the particular verse in Hebrew said they couldn't be perfected without us, pls don't add to it. Sure we are all in the family of God and you wont be wrong to say that but if it's on the basis of Heb 11:40, Joagbaje rightly corrected you.

pls let us drop this arguments as its not helping the thread.

Thanks a lot brother.

defemz: Many Christians will never understand the full import of the work of salvation which was completed by the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ.

In Africa and most specifically Nigeria today, the hope of a better life for many people on earth here has been cleverly pinned on tithe by clever pastors. What many Nigerian Christians do not know is that tithing was never a part of the new testament church, and that the issue of tithing in the new testament crept back into the doctrine in the 1800s(19th century) in America .

the problem is that many Christians, not only in Nigeria are too lazy to read. Even on this forum, somebody told me Google and Wikipedia are trash so he doesn't read them.How do you expect such a person to know about the story of the modern church? It's there on the internet in an encyclopaedia of the catholic church that tithing only started in the christian church around 585AD but how will they know when their G.O's plagiarized books are their only read literature apart from their G.O's interpretation of the Bible?

A Christian says Jesus, Paul, Peter etc collected tithes.How can somebody who has read the books of Moses make such a statement? How can you not know that Christ, Paul, Peter would NEVER have touched the tithe even with a long pole because they were not from the tribe of Judah?

Today in Nigeria and other parts of Africa, economy is bad, people are largely disillusioned, the hope of many dashed. Pentecostal Christianity, a largely materialistic variance of christian faith delude already frustrated people, giving them a false hope of God's blessing if they sow, vow and pay tithes. But the problem with this arrangement is that across all the pentecostal congregations, the pastors promising blessings to tithers are usually the most 'blessed'.
The poor and gullible middle class continue to pay tithe of their meagre earnings and the pastors continued to grow richer. The question some of the Nigerian Christians should begin to ask themselves is, why is it that in a large christian congregation, only the pastor and his family buy big things like the private jet etc etc. I can say categorically among the Nigerian pentecostal Christians, 90% of those who have private jets are the pastors! The remaining 10% are the super rich who most of the time acquire their jets before even coming to the church.

@the bolded, i challenge anybody to refute your statistics. Why does this gospel profit the preachers more than the laity? which priest or prophet was richer than the rich Isrealis in the bible?

atimes you have to wonder if the laity still do any thinking at all for themselves.i mean how can somebody be so blinded that he can't question why it's only the pastor who testifies as to receiving a gift of a new car? My mum was telling me my friend sowed 2 jeeps into his pastor's life and was encouraging me in that line. i asked her why she had not received even one steering wheel after spending more than 50 years as a Christian and sowing millions all along? every car she has ever driven, she bought or her children bought for her. sad to say the seed sower and his wife divorced some months after his 'dangerous seed' over some issues and you wonder why the seed didn't stop that particular devourer.

The bible say my people perish for lack of knowledge. The salvation work that Jesus did transcend materialism which is the hallmark of the present day church. The master himself says seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all other thing shall be added unto you. He also said it is impossible to serve God and mammon(money). Christianity in its most popular flavour now has lost its taste, but I believe the Lord is still preserving the remnant.

It was my understanding that 'i brought nothing into this world and i will carry nothing out' that finally broke the hold of the materialistic gospel on me. until we Christians realise that there is a better hope beyond this present life, we'll continue to be at the mercy of businessmen masquerading as pastors. By God's grace i'm blessed. i have all i could possibly need and i'm very grateful to God for it. I don't live in fear of an economic crisis because i believe God when he said he'll never leave me nor forsake me(Heb 13:5) so whatever happens, i always tell my sweetheart, God will provide surely meet our needs.

The good Lord will open our eyes of understanding in Jesus name.

God bless you a trillion times for this post.Amen

Bidam: @candour, What do you understand by spiritual significance of the feasts God instituted to the children of Israel?

I dont know what your own interpretation is so maybe if i hear your own version, i'll know what to make of it.

If they are types and shadows what analogy can you draw as it's regards to the present day believer who is a spiritual Israelite?

same story Bidam. you and i have had plenty discussions on these things in time past and you've changed your positions countless times. even Joagbaje had to point out an error from you on the 'is tithe for Christians?' thread. So let me know where you stand presently so i can know what we're discussing.

I laff when you condemn men of God who have higher understanding of these revelations than you guys

I laugh @ you too when you toe this line. I never make any claims as to superior knowledge but the 'Berean' Christian in me refuses to swallow anything said by any man until i test it with the more sure word(my Bible)

Anyway don't even bother to reply.

The post was without any malice or insult so courtesy demands i reply and i just did.

We grow in grace.Peace

yeah my bro. we grow in grace and may God continually reveal to us as we search out his word

peace to you too

I saw a scene like this in 2011 when i went to fix my car at a mechanic village but the 'preacher' that day could only gather like 6 persons and he didn't get much. The number i see in this pix is fairly large and that is why i'm amazed that they all could be fooled @ the same time like this.

anyway, like some boys i know will say 'maga must pay'

I pity them sha

Bidam: God bless you jare.You do have the mind of the Spirit. I decided to stop further comments so as to avoid unwarranted insults and attacks. God is helping me to stop quarreling about words which is actually of no value.May God help us all.

@the bolded. I say Amen

kunlejazz: Heb. 8:7 says For if the first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for the second

Goshen, a faulty vehicle is not the same as a write-off. The Old testament/covenant developed faults starting with Adam's fall, it is NOT a write-off. Many parts of the OT is still very relevant today, particularly the prophets (Isaiah through Malachi).
Don't forget, it is in the prophets that we find majority of the prophecies about the birth of Jesus and the dispensation of the Holy spirit (Isa. 9, Joel 2:28).

@ the bolded, so what will you do to this particular faulty vehicle? will you repair it? what do understand God did with that particular faulty vehicle(covenant)? repair it? My bro, the apostle told you it had faults.God doesn't manage things, he is the perfect God and it was within his powers to change it and thats what he did.

The old testatment didn't start with Adam my bro, It started with Moses hence it's properly called the Mosaic covenant based on the law. The old testament is very relevant in that it shows us why we need a redeemer and it points us to that redeemer(Gal 3:24-25)

Generally, the Old testament is a shadow - a kind/semblance/similitude of the New. So if your shadow has a leg, it means you also do have a leg only that it is more real/tangible, hence, If tithes were paid in the OT, the NT will require something much more sacrificial than the tithe. Thus it is reasonable to make the tithe the reference/lowest level below which a practitioner of the NT may not go.

So how do you measure this leg that the body will have from the shadow? Let us even assume you are correct that Christians should pay Tithes or in your words 'a higher form of the OT tithes', which one should they adopt as yardstick? see the 3 variants we could choose from below

1.Abraham's voluntary giving of 10% of WAR SPOILS to Melchisedek(He refused to take the remaining 90% mind you)

or
2.the Yearly tithing which Isreali families are meant to share and eat in a feast at Jerusalem(Deut 14:22-26)

or
3.the tri-ennial tithing which isreal gave to the levites, widows, fatherless and strangers(Deut 14:28-29) and which the levite gave 10% of to the Priests(Num 18:26-30, Neh 10:37-38)

So which of the 3 should we improve upon?

Goshen,
Human philosophy, brain knowledge of the bible and all the study in the world can never give us Revelation of God's Word because the letter kills but the spirit gives life. We can only achieve this by the help od the Holy spirit.
Just a passer-by
God bless you

I believe this advice shouldn't be for Goshen alone but for you and i as well. Let us read the bible with the spirit guiding so that we can know how exactly to rightly divide the word of truth. Christ said if your right hand or eyes leads you to sin, cut it off. How much attention have you given to that injunction? we all need God to help us rightly divide the word of truth my bro.

I believe everybody is happy you passed by

God bless you

what's with all these stealing of babies from churches sef? where has our humanity gone?

Happy for the parents o. i can only imagine what they went through while the baby was gone

Zikkyy: Joagbaje was referring to the fraud/greed inspired pastoral version of tithing. The tithe that involves members dashing their pastor 10% of their income. Nothing to do with the with the biblical tithe practices

my bro, thats why i wanted him to clarify things for us.

maybe i misunderstood him so he should pls clarify

alexleo: @Bidam,

Your points are good. Even the self denial, you still need the grace of God to do it. I ve proved this issue of grace for some years now. In times of trials and temptations, I ask for to grace to overcome and God has been faithful. In times of difficult situations I ask for the grace to follow God's direction. In my daily prayers I ask for the grace to follow God's will in the day's affairs. I ask for grace to subdue self daily. In my life, I plead for the grace of God in everything and this has helped me a great deal. Those who wish to vow can go ahead too. Its not bad but am not for it. I ll prefer to say; Lord give me the grace not to do this. Or Lord give me the grace to do that, than saying; Lord I will never do this or I must do this though the world fail you in doing it. Thanks.

@alexleo, very well said.

God bless

Joagbaje: There's never an ending to tithing. It's n eternal principle , just like offering, prayer,worship,etc

Which tithing exactly are you talking about Joagbaje?

1.Abraham's voluntary giving of 10% of WAR SPOILS to Melchisedek(He refused to take the remaining 90% mind you)

or
2.the Yearly tithing which Isreali families are meant to share and eat in a feast at Jerusalem(Deut 14:22-26)

or
3.the tri-ennial tithing which isreal gave to the levites, widows, fatherless and strangers(Deut 14:28-29) and which the levite gave 10% of to the Priests(Num 18:26-30, Neh 10:37-38)

Which Tithe are you exactly talking about my bro? Dont tell me you dont know there is a difference between the 3 forms of tithe i listed up there because that would be a very DISHONEST statement

awaiting your reply sir

Goshen360: That's not what I'm saying. I just flagged your I.d. in my Microsoft track system. Why do you have to open a new I.d when you already have one just because you don't agree with the OP and you needed to challenge the teaching. You could do that with your same I.d, that's my point.

Goshen, I don dey fear you o u be CIA ne? Abi na Edward Snowden u be?

Take your time o......why you dey tail the guy na?

Gombs: Did God speak what wa in Mal 3? Emphatically Yes

Was God refering to the Law of Moses? I can't say, but if he were, aw does that nullify d fact that Moses adopted tithing from Abraham?

My dear, let me help u. God Very CLEARLY referenced the law of Moses when he gave that message to Malachi.Start from Mal Chapter 1 and also pls spend sometime on Mal 4:4. You'll discover to your chagrin that The true form of the law was the focus of The whole of Malachi.

Also, pls and pls,if you say Moses copied tithing from Abraham, you just LIED BIG TIME. Abraham gave to a high priest, Isreal gave 10% to levites who then gave 10% of the 10% to the priests(Num 18:26-28,Neh 10:37-39) which means the priest actually got 1% of the tithes of Isreal.Also Abraham gave away the remaining 90% of the war spoils so why did Moses forget to include that part? And why are u not following that example since you say u follow Abraham's tithe?

My bro, I knew you'll unfollow the thread because all the premise you stood on were more unreliable than quicksand. Go study your bible more and I'm sure you'll find the truth.

If you're successful today,its because God showered favour on u and blessed your work,not because you gave your pastor 10%

Cheers

Gombs: Na wa o, Mal 4v4 is talking abt the law of moses which I told you is truncated. We aint under it, however, answer this, is tithing before d law or after?

BTW post 38 is Goshen's post..I always knew Candour and Goshen might be same folks.

you didn't ask a question in post 38 neither did Goshen. But if you mean post 39 with this question

"So what do you think? Dont you think its inconsistent
to only pick tithe out of all?"

Tithe is before d law..stop being redundant in questioning. I won't answer this again o

My bro, I answered all your questions and they are all up there. If my first post is not the 38th of this thread, then it might be 37th or 39th. It takes away nothing from the fact that all the questions you threw my way have been answered by me.

I asked you just one question and you have sadly closed your eyes to it.

Also, as per your insinuation that I'm Goshen, let me laugh at you Candour has even disagreed with Goshen on this same forum so I won't sweat over your accusation

My questions which you refused to answer is 'why do you reference Mal 3 to prove Abraham's tithe when you SURELY know Mal 3 clearly referenced MOSAIC LAW?'

You might refuse to answer it but am over happy we had this discussion because others will GI through this thread and learn a thing or two about their God and their bible.

I'll be waiting sha in case your spirit prompts you to reply

Gombs: Shey you can't answer who's speaking in Mal 3? I referenced Mal 3 because. Of who was speaking...and I knw it wasn't malachi quoting the law, nor moses, nor the law of moses nor you.

My brother, I answered you in my very first post. Pls go back and check again.its post number 38.in case you can't still see it(though that will be very weird indeed), here is your answer again GOD was speaking there as he also spoke in Mal 4:4.

So can you now answer my own question?

Gombs: Did I quote Mal 3? Even if I did, was it God speaking in malachi 3 or Moses or the law of Moses?

Who was speaking in malachi 3?

You referenced it my bro.

I also gave u an answer.

You asked me a series of questions and I answered you. Is it too much to ask you just one question?

Why did you reference Mal 3 if all you were talking about was Abraham's tithe?

Also in case you don't know, Jesus Christ also referenced Moses tithe NOT Abraham's tithe hence his reference to weightier matters of THE LAW.Our Lord was talking about MOSAIC LAW OF TITHING. Pls don't pretend about this.Go back to Matt 23:23 and read it slowly.

Hi Gombs, I await my reply

Thank God o.....Pygru has finally seen the light or maybe finally bold enough to proclaim the light.

@Pygru, this your thread will do more to quell the hell tourists.

Frosbel can finally rest

Gombs: Ok, abraham gave tithe...what covenant birthed the NT?

If you said twas voluntary tithe, you mean to say he arbitrarily gave to Melchizedek who was of same priesthood as Jesus?

You think its all a coincidence? Have you ever wondered why he was called father of faith? The man knew the things of God way before his saga abt sacrificing isaac. He could have given any man arbitrarily, or given 20% or 50%, why 10% and to a priest same as Jesus?

You think twas all a coincidence?

So why did you quote Mal 3 to support your argument or you didn't know Mal 3 was a reference to tithes instituted in the law of Moses?

Gombs:
From all you quoted, which falls within the law of moses? And which falls before the law of moses?

Abraham's VOLUNTARY tithe sure.

Gombs: A quick quiz.

Is tithing before or after the law of moses?

Which tithing exactly are you talking about my brother?

Abraham's voluntary giving of 10% of WAR SPOILS to Melchisedek(He refused to take the remaining 90% mind you)

or the Yearly tithing which you and your family are meant to share in a feast at Jerusalem(Deut 14:22-26)

or the tri-ennial tithing which isreal gave to the levites, widows, fatherless and strangers(Deut 14:28-29) and which the levite gave 10% of to the Priests(Num 18:26-30, Neh 10:37-38)

Which Tithe are you exactly talking about my bro?

Gombs: Who said what was in malachi 3? God or malachi?

Your problem is that you believe for example"No weapon fashioned against you shall prosper...", or "the lord is my shepherd, I shall not want" you didn't argue that the priesthood is changed or the covenant is changed, or that Jesus has come or somtin...but when it got to tithing, all because money's involved, you went all priesthood and covenant (mixing everything wrongly while at it). You have a lack mentality, a consciousness of things been taken from you...that's not Christ-like bro!

God said it and its the same God that said what was in Mal 4:4
Mal 4:4
'Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which i commanded him in Horeb for all Isreal, with the statutes and judgements'

To get all what God commanded him, go to Deut chapter 5 to chapter 26

Also i know you'll quote Matt 23:23 to tell me Jesus asked you to tithe but pls can you go back some verses and let us start at verse 1 of that chapter

Matt 23:1-3
'The spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,2.Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat:3.All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.'

Let me interpret for you, If you believe you're the person referred to in Mal 3, you must also agree Mal 4:4 is for you and there it said to KEEP THE LAWS OF MOSES. If you say Matt 23:23 binds you to tithe, then Matt 23:1-3 BINDS you to OBEY ALL WHATSOEVER the Scribes and Pharisees tell you to and there are 613 of such laws.

So what do you think? Dont you think its inconsistent to only pick tithe out of all?

As for the lack mentality, dont you think this line is childish and getting out of fashion? I'm sure you dont expect people to bring their account balances to Nairaland just to prove to you that they are very successful even without paying the 10% royalty?

From the bottom of my heart, i pray God's blessings on Bidam for this post.

Preach it brother and help the church of which you're a part go back to the form that was delivered to us by the early Christians and apostles.

God bless you for this post again

Abuse is an understatement. A whole spiritual industry has been created on 'the mystery of the anointing oil'.

The way some MOG go about it, they are no better than glorified babalawos. The only difference is they cover their 'Opele' with a Suit.

ThankGod sha as its obvious people are beginning to study their bibles more hence questions are being asked.

Seeing this thread for the first time and must admit image123 did a good job of it.

In the light of various discussions on tongues going on @ the moment, I think we all can benefit from this analysis of 1Cor 14 done by our brother

Happy reading and God bless

@OP, all you wrote is true. If only Nigerians particularly Christians will take the time to ponder on what king Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes, there will be less chasing of shadows and more showing of love in our nation.

God bless you