₦airaland Forum

Image123: Oh so at last we agree that Jesus was talking to His disciples, not just pharisees. Welcome. We are to regard spiritual authority nd consider their end, looking to Jesus who remains the same yesterday, today and forever. That is a paraphrase of that passage. If scribes and pharisees are still sitting in the seat of authority, we should regrd them not subvert authority like is common on nl.

Can u answer the questions I asked in my post you quoted?

613 laws of Moses,Scribes,Pharisees, why pick only tithe? What happened to the others?

Bidam: You re not preaching the liberating word of truth but liberalism. Liberalism always says: God never knows what He is talking about, so we have to interpret it for the people to truly understand.

There is a law, if you like, a code, to which we are expected to conform. Many Christians make the mistake of thinking that to be free from legalism you must become free from any law whatsoever. Nothing is further from the truth. The Scriptures never endorse that notion.Tithing is NEVER legalism.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus must be a legalist to say this in your opinion?

(1 Timothy 6:3-4) "If any man teach otherwise, and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,"

oops!! Apostle Paul must also be a legalist to say we should follow the words of Jesus.

Matt 23:1-3
'Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2. Saying, the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat: 3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do : but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.'

I wonder why those who quote Matt 23:23 never mention verse 3. There your Lord and master clearly says YOU SHOULD DO ALL the Pharisees and Moses asks you to do if you believe he was referring to you and I in this dispentation in that chapter.

There are 613 things the Moses, the Scribes, the Pharisees want you to observe. The question is how many do you observe? Since you know in your heart that you don't observe all, another question is why your insistence on tithe? In case you don't know, Jesus referenced Mosaic tithe there NOT Abram's tithe hence his description of tithe as a lesser matter of the law so don't twist it pls

Image123: +
You can't limit the workings of God's Spirit to the way He is working with you. Just has you don't want people to be forced to pay tithes, so also is it not okay for you to force people not to pay. Every one has their own motivation for service, their motivation does not have to be limited to yours. Let the people serve their God.
Cheers

yes my bro. We are saying the same thing.

The pastors and those who scream pay 10% or things will be tight for you, devourer will come, you will be poor, fall sick, miss heaven etc are the culprits here for they go well beyond their mandate. They have no right to use any bible verse to take 10% out of the pocket of any child of God. If any one is led to pay 10%, good for him. He shouldn't force it on anybody just like i wont deny him that right.

Cheers bro

Image123: i'm surprised at such conclusion when i just said "If that's what you want to do, and you're not using it to justify yourself, it will be a good work."
i never said that you cannot adopt it. Who is hindering you from adopting it? Certainly not me.

Good. that means no pastor has the right to dictate 10% or whatever % to his flock. Every child of God should purpose in his heart how he wants to do his giving in line with 2Cor 9:7. This agrees fully with the liberty we now enjoy as believers.

What is my format?

I am talking of the weekly, monthly monetary tithes which almost every pastor hammers on but which is at variance with the biblical format handed down.

And the bolded is what i previously said that i am not interested in. " i'm not interested in any detailed tithe talk at the moment." . i currently have a lot to do than to get into detailed talks and expositions or exegesis about tithe. i've talked on those passages in the past here on NL BTW. It's on other tithe threads, and Gosh, Kunle and co are witnesses. When i say "It would not be wrong also to look at all the parts and scriptures on tithing as a whole, instead of holding on to just one side." i'm not talking about myself wanting to have a detailed discussion, but about each individual studying the scriptures wholly instead of holding just one part.
Sorry, i beg to decline. i can only make one or two general comments at the moment.

Yeah i agree we've discussed it countless times and i wonder why we can't agree on the very obvious. Actually i've gone through all those chapters i listed and they were what God used to open my eyes to the reality of my liberty.

It will be a very good thing to use it to allow the reality of liberty to shine forth. Folks use their good deeds to try to justify themselves before God like it was in the Old Testament, but our good deeds should be to glorify God. That whatsoever we do, we may do to the glory of God.

Which is why we must encourage our brethren to stop trying to earn God's blessings. Some folks pay 10% and start crying to God to open the windows of heaven as if they and God are in a kind of business. They try to use tithes to force God's hands(infact i hear 'provoke God' very often). The train left that station a long time ago and it's now at the GRACE station where we have access to all goodies of God simply because of the obedience of Christ. we are in the family now and just as i don't pay my earthly daddy to love me, Why should i pay the almighty father before he meets my needs?

We give now because God has blessed us so much and there is no lower or upper limit to how we display gratitude to God.

God bless you bro

ledafaze: OP,

Don't allow Satan to rob you with the feeling of guilt. Jesus has taken all that away. He said He will make our little big. Are you now saying in my church that we give at least 7 offerings every Sunday, I should be giving 1k each? How much am I earning?

That is why it is called offerings. You offer whatever you feel like. What you know will not drain you... offer the offering and at the end of d day, u still ve enough for transportation n food.

God bless

7 offerings in one service

What for biko nu?

brilapluz: God bless U my bros..pls can i get ur email address or fone no..there is sumtin i wud like 2 discus wit U..my email is henrybobnan@gmail.com..tanks!

Thanks a lot.
I'll send you a mail ASAP
cheers

nlMediator: You seem like a fine gentleman and brother and I'll be happy to continue this conversation with you, but we may end up going around in circles, partly because you do not have as much facts as you should. Your exposure to Joel's message seems to be limited, so you are convinced he teaches only the things you think he teaches. For instance, do you know that at Lakeowood they teach about "ancestral curses"? And Deepak and Iyanla do teach hope but you err also on that score. First, the source of their hope is different from the hope Joel preaches - Jesus. They may appeal to the mind and the body but Joel's message with the anointing backing it penetrates to the spirit of man, in addition to the mental and physical realms. To the extent that Dr. Chopra and Ms. Vanzant are able to intervene spiritually, they would only use satanic powers and thus unable to TRULY deliver those under the bondage of their master. Joel's message delivers from demonic bondage, as I can testify to. Second, Jesus also taught on things other thinkers had taught eons before him, and I'm NOT talking of the OT. E.g., the Golden Rule. Following your logic, Jesus should not have mentioned it nor should we teach it today, because Ms. Vanzant can deliver a good message on that or some philosophers of old did? Joel's message may not be as deep as some would want but it has sufficient depth; just that his delivery is different. I've listened to virtually every major faith teacher today and I don't see how the teaching of say, Fred Price is different from Joel's on faith. Joel will give you the same message in summary without teaching the Bible passgaes line by line. Some people prefer Fred Price's approach. I'm fine with Joel's. Important thing is to get the message.

And I'm still trying to grasp what you mean by pointing people to the cross: are you saying every service we have, we should be talking about the cross and it doesn't matter whatever people are going through in their individual lives? Does it matter to you that nobody may even be listening to your beautiful message about the cross when their goods are out in the rain and their children risk sleeping on an empty stomach? Perhaps, you have a great formula for making people ignore their issues and pay serious attention to your CROSS message, as though telling people how to access the benefits Jesus died on the cross to give us is not part of the message.

you're right we will surely end up going round in circles if we continue the discussion in this way so maybe i'll stop with this post.

I stand by my assessment of Osteen's theology and i'm glad your assessment of him is probably not too far from mine. i might not have spent as much time on his messages as you have but i think i spend enough time listening to him to form an opinion if i see him on 2 separate channels everyday( and i mean everyday) for 30 mins each for over 4 years now.

Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius all lived hundreds of years before Christ and some of their thoughts can be seen in the moral messages of Jesus but there's a reason you and i came to Christ and not Buddha. Go through my posts and you'll see i DID NOT condemn motivational teachings. My point is that just as Christ came for something far greater than our daily bread, our churches too should concentrate on getting members well versed in the word because only then can we let our light shine brightly before men to point them to the cross. See what i said in a previous post 'I can't deny that motivational messages of hope are good for the soul but teaching only hope every sunday or weekday fellowship i repeat will not do any Christian's spiritual life any good. Its the concentration on the feel good aspects that bother me.

I've listened just like you to a number of faith teachers. i've sat under plenty of their ministrations and believed back then that i was getting the juice of the word but i no longer believe that theory. Their obsession with the material tending towards conspicuous consumption is at variance with what i believe Christ stood for and for this reason i no longer give them the time i used to. It's mostly about getting and more getting in the faith circle now and this leads towards greed and covetousness anyway you look at it.

I appreciate how our discussion went and even if we disagree, i'm delighted we did not become disagreeable. We are all striving to know Christ better. There are things i've learnt from this discussion which will provide a platform for further study.

Thanks and God bless you brother.

I think Its even illegal to open a parallel chatbox for whatever group of Christians considering what happened to the deeper life chatbox that was forcibly closed recently

Mods, if you closed Deeperlife chatbox, its only fair this one too should be closed unless there are different laws for different people on nairaland.

@yooguyz, are you actually gay?

leorayvon: Truly u have said right and there is the prophet of Jesus which you must follow , he is the prophet of this despensation, The ark is truly here again, that which was spoken in malachi 4vs 5 , that spirit of elias is here turning the hearts of the father to their children and hearts of the children back to their fathers, Prophet obinna jude, who has come with a message from God to the body of christ, u can watch a video clip in this link.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AVRrgy_Vfk

Somebody is talking about fake prophets and you come announcing another one. what makes you think your prophet is different from the ones described above?

Image123: First question, God.
All scripture is given by God' s inspiration and profitable for doctrine, teaching and exhortation. It would not be wrong also to look at all the parts and scriptures on tithing as a whole, instead of holding on to just one side. If that's what you want to do, and you're not usin g it to justify yourself, it will be a good work.

Yeah you're right it's God so i wonder why i can't adopt that same format if i am to tithe. If you are led by the Spirit to adopt the format you currently employ, would i be offending God if i have my own format different from yours when clearly the formats we both adopt is at variance with the format Abram used or the format God gave Moses for the Isrealites?

@ the bolded is the exact reason why i'm interested in this discussion. As we look at Heb 7, we should look at Deut 14. As we look at Mal 3, so we look at Matt 23, Numbers 18, Nehemiah 10, Gen 14 etc

It's not about justifying myself my bro but about allowing the reality of the liberty i have in Christ to shine forth

cheers

Image123: Because the Spirit is not haphazard, He joys to behold order. Tithe is a type of offering, just that it is a tenth. Why should we assume that the Spirit does not lead people to bring the tithe?

Who prompted Moses to give the tithe law the exact way he detailed it? God or his own human intellect? Would I be wrong to adopt that same format of presentation but much more importantly would it be wrong to adopt the same format of administration? I mean the same format in Deut 14:22-29?

I'm really interested in arriving at a conclusion so I'll await your reply

Image123: i'll skip this, i'm not interested in any detailed tithe talk at the moment. That dictionary BTW states BEFORE 12th century i.e the word was in use before the 12th century. It is not with the intent of attaching a particular group to it.

Sure the bible mentions Abraham's tithe and that was around 2000BC.

I also think its better to drop this angle as we are talking about biblical tithes.

Cheers

Image123: If we are the church, that would be the very thing to do. If we are more, the proper thing will be for the leadership to agree on what to do with it as te Spirit leads. That leadership may be the three of us coincidentally BTW.

Since we do with it as the Spirit leads, why create a dichotomy between tithes and other offerings? Why not ask people to bring as the Spirit leads since we've decided to be led by the Spirit in its disbursement contrary to how God told Moses to administer it in the law and also contrary to how Abram gave it to Melchizedek and Melchizedek alone?

Image123: We give alms to the poor and needy. We give tithe(a tenth) to the church as a unit.Every church has leadership/elders held responsible and accountable by God.

If as you agreed, you and I are the church, why can't you and I pool our tithes together and distribute as the spirit leads? Must we have a particular set of people to administer it? Christ said where 2 or 3 are gathered, he's there so why can't me, you and Bidam administer it as a true church of God?

Image123: merriam webster's

alms \ˈä(l)mz\

noun 1 archaic : charity 2 : something (as money or food) given freely to relieve THE POOR Other forms: plural alms

alms·giv·er \-ˌgi-vər\ noun

alms·giv·ing \-ˌgi-viŋ\ noun

Origin: Middle English almesse, almes, from Old English ælmesse, ælmes, from Late Latin eleemosyna alms, from Greek eleēmosynē pity, alms, from eleēmōn merciful, from eleos pity. First use: before 12th century



2

tithe \ˈtīth\

transitive verb 1 : to pay or give a tenth part of especially for the support of THE CHURCH 2 : to levy a tithe on intransitive verb : to give a tenth of one's income as a tithe Other forms: tithed; tith·ing Origin: Middle English, from Old English teogothian, from teogotha tenth. First use: before 12th century


tithe

noun 1 : a tenth part of something paid as a voluntary contribution or as a tax especially for the support of a religious establishment 2 : the obligation represented by individual tithes 3 : tenth; broadly : a small part 4 : a small tax or levy

Origin: Middle English, from Old English teogotha tenth; akin to Middle Low German tegede tenth, Old English tīen ten — more at ten. First use: before 12th century

Your dictionary definitions are in order when you consider the church referenced there in the 12th century is the Catholic church and it was fully operational as at 380AD. A Google check of Catholic encyclopedia will reveal tithes didn't show face until 585AD or so and it was only farm products. In fact the first mention of it in the English language was in 786AD at a synod and it was to support the poor and clergy.

We go back to the bible for what it calls tithe and how its to be utilised and Debut 14:22-29, Num 18:21-32, Neh 10:37-39 describes it clearly so how does it transmute into the one we have today?

Typing on my phone so might not be so coherent. I'll get back to a computer in 1hr hopefully

Image123: Note the capital letters i used to specifically show THE POOR and THE CHURCH.

Let's get the trail back. You said tithes belongs to the church and I asked who the church is.we both agreed its the congregation or group of believers and I then asked why I can't give the tithe a a group of needy family I fellowship with and you responded with your post below.

Image123: Because the tithe is not alms.I has a different practice and purpose to serve. i have never given m tithe to my pastor BTW.

Then I asked that since the tithes is not alms, then what is it?

Image123: The name is just tithe, it doesn't need any qualifiers. A tithe is a tenth.

OK I accept your point.

You said it wasn't alms, then what is it?

My bro, you'll need to travel far small to get the trail of our discussion o

Image123: hmmm my two brothers and friends, don't fight na abi you want me to start crying?

The name is just tithe, it doesn't need any qualifiers. A tithe is a tenth.

Hmm....image don't cry o before me sef come join you. Don't worry, Bidam and I have settled it. Na the devil wan cause quarell but thank God for mercies.

Wish u well on your decision to quit. This forum can be addictive so I personally had to device a strategy to avoid being here every hour every day. The virtual world is addictive, not only nairaland and there's very little you can do about it.

People have always had questions about religion. Naira land only provided another platform to vocalise it. I personally had become disillusioned with the way I saw Christianity practiced all around and I have the internet(not nairaland particularly) to thank largely for how much I now know about my bible.

I am not against people asking questions. Everybody needs to be persuaded in his/ her heart.

Wish you the best in your future endeavours

Bidam: Ok sir! enjoy

Thanks a lot

Bidam: Where did i contradict myself an use ungracious words in my post

Is it not strange i can't even comprhnd what you are telling me?

Its actually strange you can't comprehend it.

Pls you and I have derailed the thread enough.

Let's allow others have their say

[quote author=Bidam][/quote]No problems at all. Decorum is what I implore you to display and I believe that's not asking for too much. I appreciate your apology and I accept it.

You believe you submit to God and I'll say good for you then. Its your choice which you aired and I think I have the right to air mine. I've come to realise we most likely will not convince ourselves but there are a lot of confused people who come to this forum to find answers. They'll read our discussions and arrive at a decision by God's grace. They are mine priority.

I won't begrudge you your right to contradict yourself often or to use ungracious words. Go right on if it makes you sleep well at night

Cheers

/\ /\ no wahala.I don shut up

I'm doing good bro.

Cheers

Alwaystrue: @Candour, oya so since I brought it to your notice, arrange yourself and repent.

Please read Acts 5:3-6 again. Peter never called down any curse or judgement on Ananais. Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit when He spoke and Ananais was struck down when Peter said He lied against God. So I do not understand what you mean by they were in the era of sin and instant judgement o implying our own dispensation is the era of grace! I hope you do not mean that as time goes on, the dispensations of grace increases than from the time of the early apostles? Sorry o, but I see that as strictly your opinion.
Even in the OT, people sinned but were given grace to repent as well Ez. 18:30-32. In the face of the fulness of the Holy Spirit anything can happen please, do not try to assert by saying it cannot happen. That is too absolute for you to say abeg. God has absolute knowledge on why Ananais and his wife were instantly judged and it happens now as well.

No one can force anyone to adopt his method. It is on this same NL someone I read his post that stopped tithing due to what he read here but later changed again due to the conviction he got and the case may be vice versa so its not about what we try to do but what God reveals. As I said earlier, the message is truth of what the Word says and that is what I expected to be taught.

Ofcourse I know it is about emotions most times but God deals with faith. The just lives by faith.
Thanks for the time.

No wahala my sister, I'll repent.

My sister, Peter pronounced judgement o.Its very evident when he told Saphira that those who buried her husband would carry her out as well.Peter and the twelve were still observing the law at this period and its a claim I boldly make. This is the reason why even at the Jerusalem council at least 20 years after Pentecost in Acts 15, there was still an argument about circumcision and other laws of Moses.

Its not a case of grace increasing dear sister but a case of different economies. Granted we gentiles and Jews are now both under the same umbrella but when Peter stood up to preach on the day if Pentecost, he had only Isrealities in mind and rightly so because Isreal had to be saved before gentiles came in. When Isreal kept on rejecting, Paul was raised up to go to the gentiles and Isreal lost her unique status and have to now come in like every other gentile.

If God reveals tuthe to anybody,the person should go ahead.Nairaland is a public forum and everybody comes with their own 'revelations' without hindrance.Somebody said he stopped tithing and was cursed, I say my finances improved after I stopped so which is correct? There are others who came here and testified they were liberated from the legalism of tithing so you have your testimonies, I have mine. I trust my position on this issue is the truth of God's word and I trust God will surely enlighten us more.

My sister, thankGod for his grace. As long as insults don't fly around I'm willing to hear all opinions. We are all learning and we can't dictate how God passes Hus messages across.

Thanks a lot for hearing me out and God bless you plenty.

Image123: Tithe i suppose.

I only wanted to be sure its Abran's tithe before the law and not Mosaic law tithe

I ask, since it's not alms, what is it?

Bidam: And who said the 10% is going to the pastor? You don't decide how you pray and praise God.It is by the help of the Holy Spirit quickening your spirit man that you are able to pray and praise God.If not your are doing it like the pharisees and that's religious rituals.Any way a local assembly is like a family.If you have this kind of mindset i wonder whether you are planted in God's vineyard to start with.God says he will give you a Shepard after his heart who will feed you in the knowledge of the truth.You don't choose your pastor.God speaks to you concerning where to find nourishment for your soul.I can't believe i am even telling you this.That's why we have spiritual bastards all over the place who claim they can hear God and don't need a father.
It's not another priest telling you that.It's God's word saying that.The pastor too gives his tithes.doesn't he?

@Bidam, I always implore you on your choice of words when we talk. Who if I may ask is the spiritual bastard? My friend, you don't have to get emotional when we discuss. Kindly note your choice of words when you and I converse. I'm an adult and I trust you're one too.

Since the spirit quickened your mind to give 10% to whoever, go ahead and do so. The spirit didn't tell me to do so.everyman to his own. If you believe you're a spiritual bastard if you don't submit yourself to a man, pls go ahead.My own physical and spiritual destiny is tied to no man.God almighty is in charge of my life and he alone has the power over it.

I fellowship with a church that DOESN'T collect tithes and we do just fine. I fellowship with a pastor who tells me God is not a grand father as we are all equally Gods children and I agree because my bible tells me so.

When I accuse you of contradicting yourself, you cry murder. In one breath you say we're all priests, almost immediately, you say you need a higher man to submit to.pls make up your mind.

I told you once discussion with you is laborious and you just confirmed it.pls see how image123 drops his points.pls learn from him,it will help you.

Image123: Because the tithe is not alms.I has a different practice and purpose to serve. i have never given m tithe to my pastor BTW.

I believe we are still talking about Abram's tithe here?

So since its not alms, what is it?

Alwaystrue: @Candour, how are you doing? You do not give us those your lovely topics again o? Why na?

On the above I need to call you out on this? Are you now saying even the books on Acts was steeped in the law? Hence the 'grace-filled' parts are now the letters of Paul? Because after Acts of the apostles, the letters of Paul take the cake of the rest of the NT.
The problem with those who keep looking at the letter of the law is the fact that we often forgot that even though Christ never abolished the law, He fulfilled it by giving us the truth of it...many of which we know by His words and works and revelation of the reality of the shadows.

One thing I know is that irrespective of whether we give in any form or not the life of a Christian is one of greater sacrifice and giving all especially of ones self first because that is when we will truly give 2 Corinthians 8:2-5.

That is why I get amused when tithe is obssesed over and making everything about tithe. Jesus already gave perfect interpretation on all forms of giving already. The truth is the context and balance of it. Cheers.

my dear sister, pls forgive my laziness for not posting new topics. i call it laziness because it has no other name. I'll resume again as soon as i get my acts together. i'm doing very great by God's grace.

My sister, you'll agree with me that when the Holy Ghost came down on the believers and Peter's preaching led to the conversion of 3000 Jews(Note they were all Jews), they didn't just imbibe all doctrines of Grace at once.It couldn't have been more than some weeks after Pentecost that the Sapphira incident happened. Even Peter that preached to them had to be forced by God to go minister to Cornelius as Peter still showed his Mosaic side by referring to Cornelius as unclean gentile and this was the mindset of all the Jerusalem Church and that was in Chapter 10 which some bible historians put at about 10 years after the ascension. What happened to Sapphira and Ananias was exactly a type of what happened to Uzzah when he thought he could help God by steadying the Ark(2 Sam 6:5-9). My sister, they were still in the era of Sin and instant Judgement. I affirm that what happened to Sapphira CANNOT happen now because we are now fully operating under grace otherwise all those MOG that rub the name of God in mud would have been zapped.

Actually i no longer try to force people to adopt my 'not paying tithe' stance. It's their money and they are free to do as they like with it but i'll not stand by and watch a fellow Christian put under a mental and mind bondage when i fully know from the bible that it's the freewill and cheerful giving that God applauds today. Give 2% 10% 50% or even 99%, see it as a demonstration of your love, not as a requirement to be accepted before God.

You and i can't stop the tithe discourse because both sides of the argument get emotional since it has to do with money so we have to learn to live with it.

God bless you sister

Bidam: How do you interpret these scriptures?

NET Bible
Therefore I exhort you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a sacrifice--alive, holy, and pleasing to God--which is your reasonable service.rom12:1

1 Corinthians 6:20
you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.


Here your body is also a tangible substance no? you are to present it not to anyone but to God.

1 Peter 2:5

New International Version (NIV)

5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Here peter likened us to a holy priest who offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God.

we are still saying the same thing. God owns me not just the 10% of my finances so why the special interest in 10% going to the pastor? can't i decide how i give my offerings and sacrifices the same way i decide how i pray, praise and worship my God? why must i take it and drop into a basket administered by one man called a pastor?

Thank God you agree we all are priests. So why should another priest insist i come to offer my sacrifices to God at his own altar otherwise God will not accept my offerings?

Image123: Oh okay, based n assumption, the church is the gathering or congregation of believers, crudely defined.

I agree with you too though i'll clarify it DOES NOT have to be a formal registered body .A church is any group of believers So why can't i just give the tithe to a group of needy families with whom i fellowship since we agree they are the church? why can't i give it to you a brother in Christ who is in need if indeed you are the church?

Image123: i suggest the church which is the body of Christ. Who do you suggest?

i agree with you. So now i ask, who is the church?

N/B: pls remember this is based on the assumption that Christians are even asked to tithe