₦airaland Forum

alexis:
CANTICLES



It is a simple question isn't it. Is Jesus a lesser god than Jehovah?

[s]
Cha - you were referring to God Himself going to minister to who-so-ever and you gave an example of Moses. I had raised the question earlier about why Jesus; why did God bring Jesus in the picture if He is everything and can do everything Himself. You then gave an example of God sending Moses as He sent Jesus. I then went ahead to give example about God ministering Himself in Genesis to Abraham showing that God can go Himself as He had done in the past.

So, stop deflecting the question - why Jesus? If God is the creator, why did He create the everything through Jesus and by Jesus? Why? Why did Jesus claim that He was God? Why Jesus, that is my question Bros. Please do justice and answer the question and stop running away.



Malu - moses was a man; Moses didn't create the universe, moses isn't and wasn't the WORD. God didn't tell angels to worship Moses. God didn't call moses God. All those attributes are only related to Jesus. Hence the reason I asked you why Jesus. If you don't have an answer, please say so and stop ranting
[/s]

Since you want to play pretend, let me quote your own JW publications:

Russell taught that we should worship Jesus and the initial Watchtower Charter's specified that establishment of the Watchtower Society was to promote the worship of Jehovah and Jesus. Yet since the 1950's, worshipping Jesus became regarded as wrongful idolatry. Russell promoted the worship of Jesus and prayer to him because he is our God.

"It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter--the leading apostle-- "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." .... Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship...." Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3

And again:

"Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man." Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216

Rutherford continued:

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov 15 p.339

Some more for you:

"Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313

There are many many more publications before 1950's where JW doctrine stated clearly that Jehovah and Jesus should be worshiped. I tried to ask you if it was true and you ignored me. So I am asking again, from the watch-tower magazines and articles; did JW worship Jesus at any time?

Not only that, the Bible is clear:

Matthew 14:2-33:

25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Again, I will ask, do JW worship Jesus?

alexis:
CANTICLES



I am following your line of thought, if Jesus is not the creator then he is a lesser god than Almighty God, is that right?

Didn't God appear Himself to Abraham in Genesis 18:1, 12:7, 17:1–3, 22) . The text is clear that God Himself appeared to Abraham and spoke with him. Can you explain this?

It is not baseless and irrational, it is simply using your own logic. Why bring in Jesus if God can do everything Himself?

That is not true - in John 1:1, JW claims the WORD is a god?. In John 1:3 = JW claims that everything that exist, made and created was created by this "a god".

Again, it's the uneducated and uninformed that you can deceive. JW history teaches from your texts and archives that you worshiped Jesus and your history clearly stated so. In the 50's, you guys changed doctrine on worshiping Jesus. So the facts are clear, you worship God and you worship Jesus which is guys call "a god". Are you denying these facts?

goodnewscliff:
everything in GODS HAND OH....satan has blinded their eyes so much that they would even cut their skin like the BAAL WORSHIPPERS IN ELIJAHS STORY to convince u of their baseless belief

alexis:
Okay, so there are 2 Gods, one is Jehovah and one is Jesus by your description. God is the creator and Jesus is the master maker. Is God alone is supreme and Almighty, why create EVERYTHING through Jesus - why bring in Jesus in the first place?

Why does JW worship two Gods then?

goodnewscliff:
WHEN SOME ONE GO TO UR HOURSE, WHERE DOES HE KNOCKS THE LAST TIME I CHECK THAT MATERIAL IS CALLED A ''DOOR'', u can without "SENTIMENT" conclude that jesus preached from door to door....the funny part of what u ve typing is U NEVER HAVE IN ANYTIME TALKED ABOUT UR PATHETIC CHURCH....u only reffer to other church...does ur church preach...when was d last time u went to preaching from house to house and door to door...u only talk of other denominations u dont even knw of have heard about only to copy paste poo.....i dont knw d hole ur church crawled out from but let me tell ya something...I DONT NEED TO EVEN ACCESS THE INTERNET TO COPY PASTE POO TO KNOW THAT UR CHURCH IS FILLED WITH APOSTATSY...teachings dats not in ur bible...THATS ONE POINT WHAT MAKES US DIFFERENT...THE BIBLE TRUTH

zodiakzax:
Really? Did the statement really say because the Father is higher in position means they aren't one? Any learned person will understand what I wrote. Which part of having the same nature with the Father didn't you read? Which part of me saying Christ has the nature of man didn't you read? So no Sir, my statement did not say what you are implying, any reasonable person can see that.

Jessicha:
mtcheeew

he asked 'do u mean GRAVE will be burned forever ? what was your response

Scholar8200:
Now show me where I said the Grave will be TORMENTED forever in that picture! At least that was what you claimed I said!

Scholar8200:
I expect my answers first viz, Bible passage that documents the death of an angel.

Scholar8200:
Quote where I said that or accept that you have told a barefaced lie!

Scholar8200:
twisted because the JW were there since the early centuries? Whose interest was the twisting to serve? Answer!

The same strong was quoted before now hence in considering these synonyms, a recourse to the context, parallel passages and the whole revelation of scripture shows which is intended!
Where are your references?

But they are not in God's Image hence the aspect of immortality does not concern animals even if a pronoun is used for them.


.

DoctorAlien:
Psalm 104:29,30 "Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust..."

How can you say the before GOD gave Adam the breath of life, he was alive, since the removal of the breath results in death? If Adam was alive before GOD breathed into his nostrils, was there any need of GOD doing so again?

Scholar8200:
Here is what I find:

From naphash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) -- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it

STrong's concordance

That's easy! Was Adam a lifeless corpse after God created him? What about the fishes and birds and animals who were without that Divine operation? Where they not alive?

When God said that if Adam eat the forbidden fruit, he will die. Did Adam drop dead? Or was Satan right when he said,"thou shall not die"? NO

They died immediately(not separation of soul from body)- they lost that Divine Breath by which they were Illuminated with the Life of God.

Scholar8200:
NO!

Interesting! So, who are the highlighted:

in which He also went and preached to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the great patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons [Noah’s family], were brought safely through the water.
1 Peter 3:19,20

and

[a]For if God did not [even] spare angels that sinned, but threw them into [b]hell and sent them to pits of gloom to be kept [there] for judgment;
2 Peter 2:4

you are WRONG!!!
http://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/2851.htm tells me kolasis means punishment, torment. Mind showing us your Greek source for the meaning of that word?

Beast=Antichrist=Person; that Person (who has all those titles) is the one that will be thrown into the lake of forever

YES

Revelations is silent on that, I will be too. Those that were mentioned as personalities-devil, beast, false prophet, sinners- will be tormented therein.

Why not run to the Greek like you did above? Why stay with the translation in English perhaps because that one favours you.

Scholar8200:
That passage reads dead body.

Besides, [size=25] Adam was alive and breathing before God breathed into him [/size],. Death was when he lost that Divine Inspiration and his soul was separate from God but he was still physically alive. That is the death of a soul - existence outside God.

Scholar8200:
Choosing one out of a number of synonyms is questionable! Especially when the view given by such choice clearly contradicts the Whole Picture as given by the Word. Besides, when will this destruction take place since the devil is still very active today.

Rather, I would say the synonym ( you chose out of many) suggests that

even though we all know spirits do not die.

Explain this in the light of your claim:
Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
Matthew 25:46

The false prophet is not the antichrist, the beast is. The Lake of Fire is literally:

8 But as for the cowards and unbelieving and abominable [who are devoid of character and personal integrity and practice or tolerate immorality], and murderers, and sorcerers [with intoxicating drugs], and idolaters and occultists [who practice and teach false religions], and all the liars [who knowingly deceive and twist truth], their part will be in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8

Explain that passage in Matthew 25:46 at least that one is not in Revelations and it says the same thing as regards a continual state of torment! Contrary to your rather aloof stance of annihilation!

Babylon is not a personality that's wrong application!

If we will be true to the passage in question, you wont need to ask this. Already I said there was a great gulf fixed between both places. Besides, http://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/2859.htm shows that the word bosom has a synonym and usage that supports place. Reason! How would angels carry a man to another man's chest!!! The place can be rendered Abraham's bay just as we have a place in the Temple then called Solomon's porch.

Scholar8200:
Living in a body. Adam was not a corpse before God breathed in Him! The death that occurred after the fall was that the Living soul was separated from his source of Life hence he died.

Consider this:
46 And Mary said,

“My soul magnifies and exalts the Lord,
47
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Luke 1:46,47

Also:
For the word of God is living and active and full of power [making it operative, energizing, and effective]. It is sharper than any two-edged [b]sword, penetrating as far as the division of the [c]soul and spirit [the completeness of a person], and of both joints and marrow [the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and judging the very thoughts and intentions of the heart
Hebrew 4:12

Scholar8200:
Quote that passage for all to see.

Quite distinct from immortality. That the devil has been since the time of Genesis till now, does that mean God loaned him Eternal Life?

Your opinion till you prove this. Remember that Revelations is not the only place where the antichrist is mentioned. Consider the following:

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks [of years] the Anointed One will be cut off [and denied His Messianic kingdom] and have nothing [and no one to defend Him], and the people of the [other] prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will enter into a binding and irrevocable covenant with the many for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week he will stop the sacrifice and grain offering [for the remaining [size=14pt]three and one-half years][/b[/size]]; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until the complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who causes the horror.
Daniel 9:26,27

Who is that other prince? Take particular notice of his period of operation and compare with:

And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who had given birth to the male Child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a [b]time and times and half a time (three and one-half years), away from the presence of the serpent (Satan).
Revelation 12:13,14



Talking of how Israel would be preserved from the antics of that other prince/antichrist/beast for 3.5yrs. Now the Bible further speaks of the proxy that the devil/dragon/serpent will use:



3 Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the [c]apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed],

4 who opposes and exalts himself [so proudly and so insolently] above [d]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he [actually enters and] takes his seat in the temple of God, publicly proclaiming that he himself is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6 And you know what restrains him now [from being revealed]; it is so that he will be revealed at his own [appointed] time.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies],
2 Thessalonians 2

Yes Revelation uses symbols in SOME places (not ALL), but this one is clear enough!

No sir, the contexts are not the same, the word used is explained here http://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/928.htm!

The incarceration of the devil in the bottomlesss pit for a thousand years uses the word bind(more like restrain) but the Lake of fire and torment means what just it says otherwise, what differentiates the bottomless pit from the lake of fire Revelations 20:2-4?

http://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/928.htm shows what was intended when the word was used. Besides, what purpose does the use of the word torment figuratively serve?

That does not preclude the existence of the places mentioned! Why would Jesus make such far examples in a parable? What is a parable?

[size=25] Abraham's bosom is a place sir,[/size] that is why the parable talks of a big gulf fixed between both places!!!



The fact that:

1. Both men died refutes your interpretation. Else what does that death symbolise?
2. the Rich man had brothers refutes this interpretation. Else, who are those brothers?
3. Lazarus was not sent to the brother of the rich man refutes this interpretation. Else, who are those to speak to those brothers?
4. there is no proof that the fire represents messages refutes this interpretation. Else, why the reference to Moses and the prophets literally?
5. Lazarus was not sent to either the rich man or his brothers refutes this interpretation. Else, what messages was tormenting the rich man? After all Lazarus (whom you claim delivered messages) NEVER spoke to the rich man!
6. Jesus referred to both sides immediately after death underscores the immortality of the soul. Else why use a false example for parabolic purposes? Is that not confusing?
7. Stephen at the point of his demise cried ,"Lord Jesus receive my SPIRIT" shows indeed this is not just a symbol but reality! Jesus also said something similar.

etc Care to clarify further?

brocab:
First answer this>where do we keep Jesus in a church building, or in our hearts?
And tell me, what rights have you got to try and corner me into a Church building so you can cause mockery and insults to an Church organization I may not be following. You should be looking for all the corruptions that's "worldly known" in your Church, before you think to judge another.

Scholar8200:
Correct me if I am wrong, that passage refers to the corruptible , outer man, not the soul.

Scholar8200:
Now the Bible says the devil and his angels will be tormented in the lake of fire for ever and the same has been active since the time of Genesis till now; does that mean the devil has Eternal life? Let someone answer!

And since there are that claim that the story of Lazarus was just a symbol, let someone soundly exegesize that symbol and its meaning (backed by parallel scriptures vis a vis similar ones eg Matthew 25) once and for all.

analice107:
And when they visit, is it Jesus they talk about? Remember these people talk to us everyday. They are here saying they are announcing the kingdom of God. Question is, who is the king in this Kingdom? It is Jesus

who they say is an Angel?

My dear, any group that has issues with the divinity of Christ is of the devil.

Satan can never identify the lordship of Christ, and he has subtly broke his agents into little secs and they are there silently creeping into homes polluting minds. But God is awesome, we catch them.

IsaacBuchi:
Broz eh, e bi like say you go emboldened this your answer make more people see am o!

Nice answer btw!

hollyfat:
I think the book of Hebrews is a letter by Apostle Paul, what if Paul is wrong?

brocab:
I am a born again Christian, a pentecostal believer.
What don't you understand, claiming to be a JW does not provide any evidence you are a true believer in Christ. None so far what you have showing me makes any sense, your bible says one thing' and you say another trying to convict your own bible.
Revelation 1:1-8 "Tells us clearly who Jesus is' Jehovah God" and you in your own miserable power are trying to confuse the idea your bible didn't even write such a verse, I am the Alpha and the Omega says Jehovah God.
Verse 4 "which is, which was, and which is to come, this sure tells us clearly who this is-and if you believe its, Jehovah God, then you must believe Jehovah God is Jesus, or maybe you are trying to draw my attention away from this scripture because you believe this is a misprint written by the JW's?
Plus you have failed to answer every question I have laid out on this page, and yet true believers don't lie against the truth like you and your followers do, which church' what Church doesn't really matter, its the fruit we judge by, and so far, I have witnessed the JW's speak with fork tongue, nothing makes any sense in the NWT bible literature, It says one thing and convicts its own writings in the other, no-wonder we and the JW's are confused.
plus It's important for us viewers to know your secrets, about the corruptions that happens within the walls of the JW's organization. Firstly you should know about yourselves, before you claim any judgement against any other church that stands for Christ.

cosiocan:
The Trinitarians are in error! Because:
Jesus Said, "I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28
Jesus Christ stated clearly that He has a God over Him. After His resurrection.
Jesus Said; "I AM ASCENDING TO MY GOD and your God." John 20:17.
There are two Beings mentioned in John 17:3.
First is " The Only True God".
Second is " Jesus Christ whom God sent".
Jesus Christ is not "The Only True God". ".

Scholar8200:
You are welcome; pls the objects there - Pharaoh & Israel are human. In the light of this can you re-phrase your question?

Because you appear to say:
son of Pharaoh = born by Pharaoh
son of Israelites = born by Israeli fathers
son of Creation = born by Creation (Absurd if you ask me) Hence I suggest that you seek for another passage that will flow with your line of thought, in its context.(the one here refers to Pre-eminence)