MuttleyLaff:
Anger, is an emotional expression.
Are you trying to deny God displaying a displeasure and/or feeling over something bad you've done. Oh o, you rather God pull you over in His Arms, give you a cuddle, a kiss and pat on the head for you being a badass, hmm?

You seem to be mistaking questioning for surprised. God wasn't surprised, rather God was questioning Adam after what he Adam did.

"⁵Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth,
and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time.
⁶And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart.
⁷So the LORD said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth
—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air
—for I am grieved that I have made them.”"
- Genesis 6:5-7

"And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret,
for He is not a man, that He should have regret.”"
- 1 Samuel 15:29

The word translated as regret is the Hebrew word "nacham" and it carries a sense of meaning interpreted as an expression, saying, to be sorry, comfort oneself for something about to do or is going to do. God was in effect sorry that He'll have to blot out man, whom He created with His own very Hands. It is only a cold indifferent person who wouldn't have a sense of sadness, using their own hands to inflict unpleasant or not necessarily nice things upon the creations of their hands.

I remember when growing up in high school, there used to be this teacher, who when he is about to reprimand with a few strokes of the cane, with tongue in cheek and said with audacit, say, before beating, that the beating, is going to hurt him more than it will us.

On the contrary sire, everything is for the benefit of the testee. For the simple fact that God is Omniscient, that He is all knowing, then by implication, there is nothing for God to find out. Everything is for the benefit of the testee, and that is for the record, that the testee prove himself/herself. The testee needs to go through the motions, the process, measures, the et cetera, so to check the quality, performance, reliability of the testee, especially with a single and simple test with the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil (i.e. TKGE) just before the testee gets rolled out into the widespread world, lmao

You are not getting it. Everything and everyone must be allowed to evolve according to what and/or how their nature is. Ordinarily some are innately good or innately bad, but fact isn't an excuse nor a licence to discriminate and not permit either to come into existence.

It isn't about concerned about anything per se changing, but rather it is about having the fundamental right to come into existence and exist to express yourself according to whatever your nature is. However do express yourself, however you use the freewill gift you have been blessed with, God is able and capable to successfully work round it, so that His purpose, expectation and will are achieved

MuttleyLaff, it is no longer freewill when it has already been known and even predetermined by the divine.

Freewill means it could go in either direction, or something could change. But what your arguement portrays here is that what would be would be, and nothing can change that. All we are doing is roll out the script of destiny and fate, and no amount of freewill can change that, isn't it?

God is simply acting his part of the movie by reacting the exact way he already knew he would react, and we are just playing out our roles as it is in God's foreknowledge. You can't have it both ways at a time, for it becomes a contradiction. You are simply against freewill just like the calvinist but it seems you don't realize it yet.

sonmvayina:


The Bible did not really say much about what happens after death.. Ecclessiatics 12 :7 says the spirit returns to God who gave it and the body to the earth where it was taken...

The person who would have given us a good description would have been lazarus.. But nobody deemed it fit to ask him.. And he did not record anything for us.. He just exited the story as much as he Was introduced... The hallmark of a fictional tale...

Lazarus didn't say anything most likely because he was simply in a deep sleep and there was nothing to say.

fieryy:
These are the kind of questions I used to ask when younger. It didn't take me long to realize the answers I was given made absolutely no sense. Most times, I was even told I misunderstood the scriptures, asked too much questions blablabla

I'm pretty sure your daughter will soon come to that conclusion as well

Wie geht's? wo bleibst du im deutschland?

cjfbn:

Young man,
We ask these questions because of our lack of knowledge of re-incarnation.
God is perfect. Thus, his laws are also perfect. What you sow, you reap.
Do you know of the past life of the girl in question?
Why are some born blind and some born normal?
Why some are born into rich families and some born into abject poverty.
The answer to all these questions will cease when you get a good grip of creation as a whole.
Peace

But how is reincarnation just, seeing that the girl cannot even remember her past life, if what you said is true?

kingxsamz:


Are you saying that the Christian belief about hell fire is a lie?

I read hell fire in the bible as utter destruction, it is simply death without the hope of resurrection, and because of this, the body is burnt and not given an elaborate burial as expected in the jewish customs. The fire used to burn the body is compared to that of ghenna( a refuse dump in Jerusalem where the fire is always burning and worms are always there).

kingxsamz:


You can't use that example to butress your point, if not It'd mean that Dangote would have to punish those who refuse to be helped by his son.

But the dangote I'm talking about is not going to punish anyone but rather wants to save the people from the danger they are headed to. And no he didn't create the danger, and it is not a so called everlasting fire.

cjfbn:

If you are going to Lagos from ABA and you divert and start heading towards kogi, you do not need a soothsayer to tell you that you will not get to Lagos.
When you use your freewill, your destination can be foretold.

So are you saying God only knows based on the freewill we are using, or he knows beforehand, which is it? is God merely predicting the results of our freewill, or he already knows what we would choose, and the results even before we were born?

Wolgrace:


And the old Hebrew prophets don't have heaven and hell in the scriptural texts? Miss, no one can deceive you, except yourself..

Why do you believe majority of women end up in hell? Your siggy inspiration.

Where in the old testament do you find your concept of everlasting heaven or hell?
Majority of women end up in hell must be a quote of Muhammed.

kingxsamz:


The main question is, what's the purpose of the sacrifice?
Why did Dangote tell his son to live in such state or manner? What's the purpose?

In order to identify with, and to save other would be sons suffering in the ghetto.

Offpoint:


Thanks, you've answer one part of the question.

The last part, if he knew... Can that still be classified as a SACRIFICE?

Of course it is still a sacrifice, why not?

judedwriter:


No! But I can't understand everything about God!

It's a mystery, but I choose to love and obey God.

Loving God above all is the greatest command.

If what you say is true, then why did God regret for making man in Genesis 6?
In Jer 32v35, God said it never crossed his mind that the children of judah would sacrifice their children to moloch. lf God already knows all this, why is he surprised?

judedwriter:


That's the mystery of God. If He knows all things but still allows us to operate on our free will.

Does it make sense to you?

judedwriter:



It's just like saying why did God create lucifer when He knows he will become satan.

God created us with a freewill. It's true He knows all things but He allows us operate on our free will.

God did not create Adam and eve to disobey Him, they choose to out of their free will. God respects our free will, but there will be consequences.

What is the point of the freewill when he knows the results already? since it is no longer a surprise to him, isn't it pointless?

[quote author=MuttleyLaff post=90167262]

So? God's foreknowledge does stand in the way of creationhood

If God knows that I would be what I would be, then why does he get angry when I do evil? God already knew Adam would sin, and man would fall, so why does he act surprised in the bible when they do these things? for instance, God regretted at some point that he had made man. How could this be, if you say God was already expecting it to be so? God even said in the old testament, that it never crossed his mind that the people of judah would burn their children as sacrifices to moloch( Jer 32v35). Why is God acting surprised in all these?

The testee doesnt know the result, so means anything done is for the benefit information and sake of the testee.

Everything cannot be for the benefit of the testee, the tester also have a purpose for testing the testee, in Islam for instance allah created man to test him, and is same in some versions of christianity, if this is the case then allah or God wants to find out something from this test, isn't that so?
The big question here is this, if God can already see what would happen or what we would decide, then nothing can change that, it would mean that all that happens have been fixed already, and this is why God has access to that knowledge, right??

Dtruthspeaker:


With great Joy Do I Tell you that I have seen for a Truth that ALL THE JUDGEMENTS OF GOD ARE RIGHT AND ARE ALWAYS RIGHT AND SHALL FOREVER BE RIGHT AND JUST.

They are even far better than what judgements man can ever give. They are Always Just Is or Just Right!

I challenge you to pick any of His Judgements, let us look at it together.

ok, is it just to keep someone burning for all eternity because he told a lie just before he died, even though he was a christian all his life, and then admit someone who was a rapist, killer, etc into heaven for all eternity because he confessed jesus as lord on his deathbed?
Is this justice? if so, how?

cjfbn:
Human spirit has what is called freewill. An example is a guy goes into a market with a gun, he has the freewill to shoot it not to shoot. If he shoots the gun, he is automatically tied to the responsibility which he must bear.
Man has freewill and God does not intefere. He can look at the course of action and predict what will happen in the future.

But how can it be freewill, when God already knows what would happen? it has been predetermined in God's foreknowledge right? and what is the purpose of a freewill or test to God, when God already knows the result? this is why many doctrines in islam and christianity makes no sense to people.

Wolgrace:
Daejoyoung

Lazarus wasn't the one found in hell, but the rich man. Hear this! Body is the physical representation of the spiriual soul. The body is cloth of a breathed living soul $ soul cannot be quenched, hence it forever lives.

If heaven and hell is a spiritual place, so is the spiritual soul of man. In heaven, living souls drink water of life and eat from the trees of life i.e leaves, fruits, others. It is a prosperous place prepared for us. And hell is a place of poverty, lack, starvation, hunger, pains, torments, hopelessness, helplessness. Reason, God opened the windows of heaven for the rich man to see Lazarus' pleasure without lack. Jesus says "ALL THAT IS MINE IS YOURS."

Lazarus' indication being saved by grace proves God's static word. Believe His promise!

But your question is inspired by scientific criticism of the big bang theorists, JW share same disbelief system with them under the guise of light. RELIGION OF DISBELIEF UNDER THE GUISE OF LIGHT IS SATAN'S TRANSFORMATION INTO ANGEL OF LIGHT.

oh my bad, I meant the Richman.
So you are saying, after death, our souls can still eat, drink,and do all sort of physical things?

cjfbn:

What then happens to sowing and reaping. Are you implying that there is a possibility that I can rape a lady and go Scot free just because I repented?
The Bible says, do not be deceived, God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows that will he reap.

But that is what many Christian's believe, that your deeds do not take you to heaven, only accepting jesus as lord and saviour is sufficient. To these people, if the girl was not a christian then she would go to hell,and if the pepertrators accept jesus this minute, they are cleansed from their sins.
This is what many so called Christians believe, or am I wrong?

Dtruthspeaker:


What!
You who does not know what rightness and justice and Judgement is wants to DICTATE to your Creator, Who Gave you these things?

Can your children in Your house Teach You and Instruct You, what Righteousness and Justice and Judgement is?

I am asking you as a human who believe this is what the creator would do, from your own God given human conscience, is it just to you? Or didn't God give you a conscience to differentiate what could be right and wrong? or is God a dictator who cannot be questioned?
If it was God's intention not to be questioned by humans, then surely he would have made humans robots.

Wolgrace:


Op and Maximus69 It is not a parable but a reality story before His mission on earth. Meaning Jesus Christ is the same omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresence God yesterday, today, and forever who sees all activities of men on earth. His narration of the story is to reveal His omnipresence divinity as a divine accountant, hence he chose the rich man and Lazarus' scenerio to account their works. However, Lazarus was saved by grace of Christ. Remember, it was after His death, many who died in faith and hope on God's promise (not deeds or works or human righteousness) were resurrected with Him into the kingdom, Lazarus inclusive. You're inexcusable

If Lazarus is a true story, then answer these simple questions for me:
1) With what tongue was Lazarus expecting to taste water with in hell fire? One would think that he only has his spirit in hell and he is without a body, do spirits have tongues?
2) If you are in hell fire, burning literally in great flames and you happen to see father Abraham, what would be your first request? would it be for a tip of water in your tongue?
3) What is the purpose of this so called true life story? was jesus telling them to become like poor Lazarus in order to enter Abraham's bosom?
4) ls Abraham's bosom heaven? lf yes, would you as a Nigerian Christian go to Abraham's bosom?
5) You say lazarus was saved by grace of christ, how do you know this? and where was that indicated in the story?

Dtruthspeaker:


That is why even the Angels of God SHOUTED, Woe! WOe!! WOE!!! to the people on earth, for more Deadly Beginnings of Judgements were still coming to man!

That's the Power of Every Judgement! It crushes lesser things!

Is that judgement to you? shouldn't judgement be just? shouldn't the God of all the earth do right? how is keeping people in fire for all eternity ( not even a trillion years) for one lie they told just before they died, be just? does it make any sense to you?

Wolgrace:
Maximus69

Such teaching is a merchant of lie and deception. Hell (hades or sheoul) is underworld of the dead, meaning hopeless and helpless abode. Dead meaning hopeless and helpless soul disconnected from God forever. Jesus Christ is not the God of the dead but of the living. He resurrect those whose names are written in the book of life, meaning those who are His. 2Timothy 2:19. Therefore, body perish with dust particles where it was taken from, but the soul lives forever in heavenly peace or hellish sorrow torments and gnashing of teeth. Your choice but without accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord God, saviour, redeemer, righteousness, and faith, you will miss His kingdom.

Rich man and Lazarus is a typical explanation of the spirit world of the trio-universe, i.e supreme heaven, space heaven, and earth and her underneath. The rich end up in hades of hopelessness, torment, and sorrow while Lazarus in heaven's home of everlasting joy and peace with full liberty and assess blessings.

You have no excuse bro..

Richman and Lazarus is not a good example of hell in the bible( if there be any example of such at all). Even if you accept it to be an example of the existence of hell, did the rich man go there because he didn't accept jesus as his lord and saviour( like many pastors would have you believe) or because of his deeds?

[quote author=Tamaratonye5 post=90136651]

What creation? How you theists love to assume your beliefs. Why does your subjective perception that things are orderly evidence anything at all, least of all a deity? What evidence have you reality can be otherwise? You don't get to simply assume this, or simply call everything "creation" and think you won't be called on such dishonesty. And I asked you what objective evidence you could demonstrate for any

So tell me then, what would you accept as objective evidence?

[1] I'm sorry, but you eventually contradicted this assertion yourself when you said: "at some point in our evolution..." later in your reply. So, which is it then? Body parts tend to be where they are because some independent ‘designer’ made a conscious decision to place them there or they are in those places because they evolved to be?

"Independent designer" and "evolved to be", are not mutually exclusive. Are they?

[2] You committed another straw man fallacy. Where did I ever claim to think this arrangement was a coincidence? We already know for an objective fact that they evolved that way. You don't get to assume otherwise, or make up lies about what I think. Please stop presuming, as unlike your religion, my atheism has no doctrine or dogma, so beyond my lack of belief in any deity, you know nothing about what I believe until I tell you. Evolution is not based on mere coincidences, though of course random chance must necessarily play some part. One has only to randomly roll some dice to know that random events are capable of producing complexity.


What an arrogant assumption, the global scientific thought that has amassed the overwhelming objective evidence that establishes species evolution as a scientific fact, refutes this arrogant assumption as well. You don't get to just assume "there must be" anything at all, that is not debate. And I can assure you from your few posts thus far that I have given this far deeper thought than you have based on your posts and responses to the most basic tenets of reason and evidence.

So why did they evolve to be that way?
Why did evolution take the path it took?
Why was there something rather than nothing?

You are not asking the deep questions( or probably you chose to ignore them), you are rather just blabbing away.

Since we are demonstrably animals this statement makes no sense, and again you are simply asserting without even the pretence of evidence. As I already pointed out, other species have attributes unique to them, so it is absurd to assume our evolved intelligence denotes us being special among evolved living things. Why do you keep claiming evolution can't evidence things, are you an expert in evolution? I am growing tired of your endless unevidenced assertions now.

I never said we are not animals, you accuse me of straw man fallacies, but your posts are always full of them. You simply replied without understanding there, read again.
Also our unique attribute makes us world leaders, we are even here contemplating about our existence on a forum like Nairaland(created by humans) that enables us communicate thousands of miles away, we have conquered the world with a mind different from other animals. Do you need objective evidence for all these too? so why other animals are special, humans have distinguished themselves. No

What deity, and what objective evidence have you for one, let alone that it chose us over other species? Another string of assumptions you don't even try to demonstrate any objective evidence for. We have existed for a mere 200k years, there are species alive right now that have existed for many millions, dinosaurs ruled the earth for many hundreds of millions, and their ancestors exist now, so this assumptions is risible, sheer numbers then, well there are a mere 7+ billion of us, how many bacteria exist in one human being?

Read my reply above, and this time read it slowly. Comprehend first.
As for dinosaurs, they ruled the earth but they never had that great intellect or did they? Don't you get it? if you do, then why waste my time with this myopic reply?

No, for the reasons stated, and because no presupposition is logical, that is a rational contradiction.

Lol, no presupposition is logical? are you fvcking kidding me? then in that case there would be no need for philosophy or we can say there are no logical philosophical arguments. Mind you, philosophy gave birth to science.
Many philosophers in ancient times by mere presuppositions gave arguments confirmed by science today, they made premises from their observations and drew conclusions they termed logical. At the time many of them had no objective evidence or proof for them.
Tamaratonye5, for fvck sake, what the hell are you talking about?

Tamaratonye5:
Daejoyoung,

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?

That is your starting point, not this straw man non-sequitur non-argument you're using to try and evade the burden of proof your belief in a deity incurs.


Another strawman, unless you can quote me stating otherwise. Your dishonesty does not bode well, here then is a repetition of my response to your claim, since you are determined to ignore it, and simply repeat your claim:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see the lies are coming thick and fast now, where did I deny this? I think you mean humans are self aware, not self conscious, which means something else entirely, though we are conscious beings, as are other species of course. I have no idea what "spark of mind" means, so I cannot comment, nor have I, so do please stop lying.

Now...

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?

This question is not going away, in fact I will bet that you go before it does. In my experience questioning theists, you people always run away when you finally realise that having no answer cannot be waved away with vapid unevidenced rhetoric. Can you prove me wrong?

Well the evidence for a higher intelligence is that creation seem to be more orderly than it is disorderly. I mean it just cannot be a coincidence that your mouth is where it is to aid talking and your hands are where they are. Think about this more deeply before you give me a reply. There must be an higher intelligence somewhere.

Self consciousness and self awareness are often used interchangeably, though you are right that they are different, and yes in this context however I mean self awareness.

Spark of mind means, at some point in our evolution we began to have minds different from mere animals, our big brains alone cannot account for this. We think, We create, probably we have been chosen by nature or the gods to rule the world and this is the reason why. Isn't that a logical presupposition? no?

Tamaratonye5:

Repeating your unevidenced claim doesn't make it any less meaningless, and of course this disingenuous red herring is not what you originally claimed. You claimed that "The human brain is exactly like the computer,". This is demonstrably false, even with the equally unevidenced assertions you qualified it with.


What a particularly useless and pointless question. Why would I bother answering hypothetical questions about non existent evidence? And what has this got to do with your penchant (like many theists) for making unevidenced assertion ad nauseam?


You absolutely used a text book god of the gaps polemic, and no deity need be mentioned for the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy to be just that, and here is your fallacy from your OP, quoted verbatim then:

Given you are a theist, it was also perfectly reasonable to infer where you were taking this.


Well that's simply a lie, you made several other assertions which you offered zero evidence, or even rational argument to support, and which I challenged. So it's doubly dishonest to now rehash the one assertion I did not challenge, this is clearly a straw man fallacy, since I never mentioned that claim in my response.


So you keep claiming, but as I already said you don't offer a shred of objective evidence for your claim. Computer software is a human creation, the human brain is a natural physical organ, and all there is no evidence its functions are anything but natural. There is something extraordinary about many species, so what? What exactly are you loading the dice here in order to claim humans have, other than a natural physical brain, whose functions require natural processes? The more you do this without being specific the more disingenuous your unevidenced assertions appear.

Humans are extraordinary, the fact that we are even having this arguement is a testament to the fact. We have a kind of self consciousness, and spark of mind. You know all these already, so why the denial?

omonnakoda:
Read the topic of the thread

The topic is useless.

omonnakoda:

I don't know what you mean by extraordinary
So if there is something extraordinary then that proves there is God?

Extraordinary or I can say mysterious.

You are the one bringing in God here, but I am not going to rule out the God possibility. By God I mean an intelligence that made it so. We don't know, but it's a possibility.

omonnakoda:


Seems ?

And that is to?


The same brain?

It seems to humans that there is something extraordinary about them?

Define extraordinary please?

There is something extraordinary about you, you have a spark of mind not present in animals or just computer machines, or am I wrong?

Tamaratonye5:


Oh dear, whilst your assertion about the human brain is entirely unevidenced, it's pretty idiotic to contradict your own assertion, in the same post you made it.


Who cares what you think, are you remotely qualified to make sweeping assertions about a scientific theory? Have you publish any research to support your assertion in a worthy peer reviewed journal? You don't need to answer, as the answer is self evidently no.


You are just trying to use a god of the gaps polemic. Species evolution through natural selection is an observed scientific fact, that is supported by ALL the objective evidence. You don't get to just add unevidenced assertions to a scientific theory based on gaps in our knowledge, and claiming unexplained magic is involved. Occam's razor applies.

As a matter of fact, your starting point should be to first demonstrate objective evidence for a deity before you are qualified to attempt this strawman non-sequitur non-argument you're using to try and evade the burden of proof your belief in a deity incurs.

The human brain is an advanced computer software, but humans are more than just living brains.

As to your second point, if I publish a research paper on it, or get a theist who has published a research paper on it, would you believe it then?

oh my, I never used any God of the gaps polemic. I didn't even mention God in my reply, so why make unnecessary fallacies?

I only made an assertion, which is self evident, humans are more complex than working machines like computers. Humans do not have only the brain( which is an advanced computer software) but it also seems there is something extraordinary about humans.

bright007:


This opposes your earlier beliefs.

You said bad things are not the intention of God. And that bad things happen because of sin. If unborn children and those below 7 years are without sin according to you, why will they be punished by a loving God for evil caused by sinners?

I never said all that.

bright007:


Perfect explanation.

Unborn children who die from natural disasters like earthquakes, Tsunami, Volcanic eruptions etc, what crime did they commit?

Even children less than 7 years have been reported to have died from such incidents, what crime did they commit ?

The world is not a perfect place for any of us, my man. This world is not our own, we are just passing through.There would be a new age, a new world to come.

bright007:




Now I see the results of your brainwashing!

Now use your brain and tell me which is better

Now it is Paul speaking:



1) Fellow brothers and sisters in christ, slavery is evil and God hates it. Therefore free all slaves that you currently own.


2) fellow brothers and sisters, no one is a slave. We are all followers of christ.



Pls be sincere and tell

It just like saying:

1) Fellow Nigerians and employers of labour, who pay their labourers little, free all employees and have no more employees under you who work their arse out for little pay.

Compare this to:

2) Retain your employees, but treat them well for the supreme master would be against you, if you don't treat them like brothers, and pay them well.

So use your brain, tell me which is better.