₦airaland Forum

TruthSeeker1:
My simple question for you is: between science and religion, which one has solved more human problems? Which one has contributed more to the progress and advancement of the human society?

I'm not anti-Science because modern Science has actually helped address the symptoms of a few issues, but not the root causes.
But we have to be honest with ourselves that's why I say that removing religion completely from the equation will not solve the issues.
The keyword here is true religion not the fake kind that encourages crime, hatred, nepotism etc


On REAL issues concerning racism, hatred, prejudice, war, crime, disunity, class divisions—true religion[using the Bible, which in your opinion claim it's a product of human opinions] has solved ALL of these problems and I'm not even joking.

TruthSeeker1:

I don't really know what your point is, but science and technology only started changing rapidly in the 20th century.
If by "human nature" you mean human psychology, the I will say it is multifaceted and complex. I don't know the change you're looking for
You've answered the question yourself: both religious and irreligious people exhibit all of human characteristics (both good and bad). The distinction you have made between good and bad religion is only your opinion and it's debatable.
My simple question for you is: between science and religion, which one has solved more human problems?
Religion only gives hope about something that is most probably non-existent. Science solves actual problems!

It seems you missed the highlight of the original post. True religion[not the countless fakes we see today] produces the following fine qualities which no scientist/atheist can ever dream of having:
“On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”—Galatians 5:22-23
You say what's written in the Bible is just someone's opinion, okay, but it's having positive impact on those using it wisely.
You, as an atheist the other hand desire to see all religions abolished so that your own decision based on a scientific view will stand, isn't that so? How are you different from religious folks then?

If we can only combine science with a genuine concern for others well-being (through empathy),

I'm sorry but you lost me there. It's like you still want to introduce religion into the equation.
On the question of morality, you're still saying people in authority should decide how each individual should act, even though it's not against the laws of the land?
If so, it's no more different from the religion you're so intent on abolishing.

...almost all our problems will be solved: only the problems caused by natural disasters will remain.

You seem more noble-minded than other atheists/agnostics I've encountered on NL. At least you were able to offer a substitute instead of wailing and pointing fingers. But like I said, the problems humans are facing cannot be solved in their own, that's just the bitter truth. 6,000years have gone by with different forms of governments and ways of living—even with the advancement of science and technology—yet the basic ills of the society remain hatred[racism/prejudice], crime, robbery, murder just to name a few and science cannot even dream of solving these issues.

TruthSeeker1:
To answer your question objectively, we simply need to identify the merits and demerits of religion, juxtapose the two and ascertain which one is more.
In my assessment, the demerits of religion far outweigh its merits. Hence, an irreligious world would be an improvement.
Essentially, abolishing religion would mean more focus on science. This will invariably help us come up with better solutions to our problems (rather than relying on deities). From the countless good things we are already enjoying from science, more science will ensure a better world!

Science and technology change rapidly, but has human nature changed?

Are the following traits common amongst those who do not believe in a God?

“...lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God,...” —2Timothy 3:1-4

“...their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature;  likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error. Just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting. And they were filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice, being whisperers,  backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, schemers of what is harmful, disobedient to parents,  without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, and merciless...” —Romans 1:26-31


Note I'm not saying that those who claim to know God today are exempt of this practices. Also in the outset of this thread, the article distinguished between true and false religion.

A rotten tree cannot produce fine fruit—Matthew 7:18-20

That principle not only applies to religions but to all things that are based on vain hope—such as the one that science is the only solution to mankind's problems.

In the so-called Socialist countries where atheism is the watchword and also have made significant advancement in science and technology, have the traits stated earlier vanished or only gotten worse?

Religion is also one of the major issues plaguing mankind today. In fact the same Bible explains that a time would come when atheists[those in governmental power] would pounce on all forms of religion and exterminate them. Revelation 17:15-17,18:23-24

BUT that will not solve the issues humans are currently facing because the cause of our problems is rooted deep in we humans and has a lot to do with morality rather than so-called advancements in science.

THE new atheists envision a world with no religion​—no suicide bombers, no religious wars, and no televangelists fleecing their flocks. Does that vision appeal to you?

Before answering, ask yourself this, ‘Is there any evidence that universal atheism would lead to a better world?’ Consider: As many as 1.5 million Cambodians died in the Khmer Rouge effort to establish a godless Marxist state. And in the officially atheistic USSR, Joseph Stalin’s rule resulted in tens of millions of deaths. Granted, those evils cannot be directly attributed to atheism. But they do show that the rule of atheism does not ensure peace and harmony.

Few would deny that religion has caused much suffering. But is God at fault? No! He is no more at fault than a car manufacturer would be for an accident caused by a driver using a cell phone. Mankind’s suffering has many causes, one of which is more fundamental than beliefs. The Bible identifies it as inherent imperfection. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23) This sinful inclination tends to foster selfishness, undue pride, a desire for moral independence, and violence. (Genesis 8:21) It also causes people to rationalize and to gravitate toward beliefs that excuse wrongdoing. (Romans 1:24-27) Jesus Christ rightly said: “Out of the heart come wicked reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thieveries, false testimonies, blasphemies.”​—Matthew 15:19.

A Vital Distinction

At this point, a distinction must be made between true worship​—that is, worship that is acceptable in God’s eyes—​and false worship. True worship would help people to fight against base inclinations. It would encourage self-sacrificing love, peace, kindness, goodness, mildness, self-control, marital loyalty and fidelity, and respect for others. (Galatians 5:22, 23) False religion, on the other hand, would tend to cater to popular trends​—‘tickling people’s ears,’ as the Bible says—​by condoning some of the bad things Jesus condemned.​—2 Timothy 4:3.

Might atheism contribute to the same moral ambiguity or confusion? ‘No God’ means no accountability to a divine authority, as well as “no objective values which we are obligated to respect,” says law professor Phillip Johnson. Morality thus becomes relative, with each person determining his own standards​—if he chooses to have any. No doubt such thinking makes atheism an appealing philosophy for some people.​—Psalm 14:1.

The fact is, however, that God will not forever tolerate untruth​—atheistic or religious—​and those who promote it. He promises: “The [morally and spiritually] upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.” (Proverbs 2:21, 22) The result will be something that no human, no human philosophy, and no human institution could ever bring about​—universal peace and happiness.​—Isaiah 11:9.

Source : https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201011/A-World-Without-Religion-An-Improvement/

Do you know that one of the reasons why Jehovah[the name of the God of the Bible] condemned and exterminated the Canaanites was because they literally burned their children alive in fire ?
Check Deuteronomy 12:31 in your Bible.
So why would the same God turn around and subject disobedient humans to the same thing for all eternity?

In fact, Jeremiah 7:31 says that the practice of burning people alive in fire disgusts him. Those who hold to the doctrine of a mythical “hellfire” claim that it helps keep people in check and fear of God but they cannot explain the following points:
1. Should humans worship God because out of fear of a “hellfire” or are they to worship God because they deeply have love and respect for him? Matthew 22:37, 1John 5:3
2. At what point did God create this “hellfire”?
3. Since we all know it was the Catholic Church that forged this “hellfire” doctrine and that they claim it keeps people in check, has the crime rate in countries predominantly occupied by Catholics and other major churches reduced? Or has it been getting worse and worse by the day?

The doctrine of “hellfire” negates Romans 6:7 that says a human being(being a descendant of Adam) is acquitted of his sins once he dies . See also Romans 6:23

Nairalandian:
I really doubt that hell is real.
Of course, I know that people do commit terrible sins.
But brethrens, do you know what it means to torment someone in fire FOREVER.
If you do not know, go out now, buy a candle, light it, and place your hand in the fire for 5 seconds, just give seconds. You'll feel terrible.
Just 5 seconds brethrens.
If your child does something wrong, will you set him or her on fire. Most certainly you won't.
How much more a God whom the Bible referred to as A God of Love.
"God is Love" _ 1 John 4:8
Forget church say, church no say, use logical thinking fellas
If humans can't set their children on fire
How much more a loving God

So what would you say about those whom Jesus said would perform signs and wonders in his name but that he would later reject them? Matthew 7:21-23

If you're using Mark 16:17-18 as a benchmark[though, it was spuriously added to the Bible], then does your church also have the practice of handling live snakes? Because from all indication, it's only voodoo worshipers who engage in this practice.

Preciousgirl:
Mark 16:17-18
[17]And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; [/b]they will [b]speak with new tongue[/b]s;
[18]they will [b]take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


Whatever 'church' you belong to, ask yourself these questions:
1. Do members of your church cast out demons in the name of Jesus?
2. Do members of your church speak with new tongues?
3. Do Sound miracles take place in your church?
4. Do members lay hands on the sick and they get healed?
If you answer NO to the above, it means your church is not approved of the Lord Jesus, flee!
Hallelujah

Jashub:
For those who say Jesus is not your God, is it not written that those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved(Romans10:13)?
This day I challenge all hypocrites who say Jesus is not God Almighty to stop saying His name in prayer.
Start calling on the name of the Father or YHWH and see how the Devil will respond to you then come back and tell me the experience (that is if you will live to come back)
Peace.

Joel 2:32:
And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.
So who was Paul quoting in Romans 10:13? Because the tenth chapter of Romans features a lot of reference to the Hebrew Scriptures.

Jashub:
Now you are making sense!
No one had ever seen God, true. But that did not stop God from revealing Himself. Let us see how He did this :
1Timothy3:16:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
From the above verse, God has been seen. The revelation and the mystery of our God was revealed and He was seen by both men and angels.

The word “God” doesn't appear in 1Timothy 3:16 this is already becoming old news nau. It was forcefully inputted by your mischievous KJV translators.

It's okay I've heard you loud and clear sir.

jesusjnr2020:
Maybe you think I'm someone that could be schooled by false teachers like you.
I could only be schooled by teachers of the Truth not lies.
So when next you want to sell your lies, take it somewhere else because i'm not interested.
At least your false accusation against the wise men of God that they conspired with Herod against Jesus has been destroyed, so you can no longer hold on to it.
You've been hence schooled by a teacher of the Truth. That alone justifies this thread.

I don't contend with proud, hateful and blind religious bigots. It's obvious from this thread that you've been severely schooled on the topic and you only want to save your pitiful face.

jesusjnr2020:
[s]You lied! It's because your false accusation of the wise men of God was clearly exposed, otherwise you'd have continued with your lies as you're doing so with the others.
I'm not surprised that there are many commentators here who agree with your position. In fact i'm even surprised of the amount of those who have agreed with mine because I know the position of many Christians about this. I know how you got misled about the wise men, even though you didn't want to state it. It was a recent thread that a pastor's wife called them spies. Imagine someone who's leading people speaking so ignorantly and misleading people about the wise men of God, how much more the followers?
So I didn't expect much persons here to agree with my position, but something you should know about me is that i'm not here to speak what people including Christians would agree to, but the Truth.
That's the purpose of this thread. To speak the Truth about the wise men of God for those who cared to listen.
So you can keep your many commentators who share in your false beliefs.
I stand with the Truth![/s]

MaxInDHouse:
I disagree with you brother, if that's how he wants it then why is he castigating livingchrist?

Because livingchrist is one of his brethren in tha Lord so even if they abuse and insult each other over conflicting ideologies, at the end of the day, they can utter their usual “Jesus is Lord” slogan and go their separate ways.

Jashub:
You are not digressing abi? Okay let us go back to that post.
Here is :
[b.]"For your information, Moses was sent to deliver God's people from slavery, not sin.
Jesus on the other hand, was sent to deliver mankind from sin. And who is that one person who can deliver mankind from sin...? Is it not God alone? Does man have the ability to deliver Himself? No.
Automatically, that qualified Jesus to be God. "[/.b]
The bolded, is the analogy, according to the bible, true or false. Answer

Take note of the words below in bold and provide the answer to it.

DappaD:
So what happened after Adam sinned? Didn't he bring upon all humans sin and death? Romans 5:12?
In your KJV BIBLE, Jesus said he came to the earth to give his life as a “ransom” Matthew 20:28
According to your dictionary, what is the meaning of the word “ransom”?

Jashub:
Why are you digressing? Why not accept what I posted previously? Or does the post go contrary to what the bible says?

I'm not digressing sir. I'm only showing you from within the Bible that what this your trinity you want to by all means import into it doesn't fit in with the Scriptures.

MaxInDHouse:
The greatest impossibility!
Jesus said "those who aren't on my side will SCATTER" {Luke 11:23} two or three individuals can never agree on what Jesus never taught talkless of a full church!
There is no church where they can have the same line of thought my brother, unless Jesus is a liar. Because he fervently begged his father to use that as the sign to identify his own group {John 17:20-23} so they can never agree no matter how hard they try, it's only when they come against Jesus' true followers {JWs} that critics hide their differences in a show of shame! Act 23:6-10

You can even take note of the guy's response. In other words, it doesn't matter what anybody believes as long as they're all deceiving themselves with the words “We're all Christians” under the name of their trinity god.

Jashub:
Oga, you do not understand the bible neither do you understand the purpose of Jesus coming.
For your information, Moses was sent to deliver God's people from slavery, not sin.
Jesus on the other hand, was sent to deliver mankind from sin. And who is that one person who can deliver mankind from sin...? Is it not God alone? Does man have the ability to deliver Himself? No.
Automatically, that qualified Jesus to be God.

So what happened after Adam sinned? Didn't he bring upon all humans sin and death? Romans 5:12?
In your KJV BIBLE, Jesus said he came to the earth to give his life as a “ransom” Matthew 20:28
According to your dictionary, what is the meaning of the word “ransom”?

Jashub:
Catholics forged it? Hahahaha...my belle o.

Please are you a learner? As in them born you yesterday?
Because even a teenager in one of your churches knows that this trinity you're carrying on your head now was forged by the Catholic Church.

Please have you ever had an encounter before?

Sir please leave all these your “encounter” and “falling-under-anointing” trash alone for now and focus on the topic.

So who now told you livingchrist didn't have an “encounter” before he started giving his own version of the trinity?

Jashub:
Your analogy is weak and seriously off -point here. Jesus is the word of God and and He is also God (John1:1l) and scripture says this expressly. Please why are you finding this so hard to accept? Why are you bring Moses and Aaron who are in now way related to this conversations?

Who told you it's not related? Exodus 3:10 said God sent somebody to set Israel free from slavery and Exodus 20:2 says that God took responsibility for it even though the human he sent was he one who appeared before Pharaoh.
John 3:16 said that God sent somebody to set obedient humans free from slavery to sin and death Romans 8:21
But now you're saying God is the same as the person he sent in the case of John 3:16?
How desperate can you be?

Jashub:
The chap you mentioned is probably Catholic or Anglican and they too are like JW and they reject the divinity of Jesus being God. Which is why you can barely see miracles happening there.
P. S : Charismatics Catholics no vex o. Una own different

So you don't know that it was Catholics that forged this your trinity dogma which you now hold dearly? Is their own “Holy Ghost” different from yours?

Jashub:
So you are JW? Blood of God!!! I never knew.
Anyway, now that you have told me, I cannot agree with you because of some sat anic indoctrinations Charles Tuze let you swallow. And these doctrines run contrary to what i have read and seen from the bible.
Peace.

Shuu
I will quote livingchrist again and again til you accept that all you trinitarians dogheads are confused. Shey livingchrist isn't a JW yet you disagree with his own trinity version nah? Lol

Jashub:
Oga, God is a tripartite being ;just as man is also a tripartite being. Which is why we are created in His image and possess those qualities of Him. (Genesis2)

Wait for your trinitarian brothers to come and explain what their “Holy Ghost” taught them too. So when livingchrist was explaining his own version of Trinity why were you castigating him since it's the same “Holy Ghost” working amongst you people?
You cannot claim that what your “Holy Ghost” taught you is superior to what theirs taught them. No it's not acceptable!

God exist in three forms : The Father, The Son (aka the word) and The Holy Spirit. These three forms are one and are always in agreement and bear witness of matters on earth and in heaven. (1John5:7)
Think of them as water existing in three state of matter :
Gas (Steam)
Solid(Ice)
Liquid (Water)
For the fact that water exist in these forms , does not remove the fact that it is water. So also is it with God.
God created the world through His word and this Word was the God (John 1:1). This means that God created the world through God. And this is a great mystery which only few can discern.

Your 1John 5:7 falsehood has already been exposed long before now. Go online and search for “Comma Johannine”. That should cure your delusions.

And as for John 3:16, that verse is still the same thing as God sending God into the world. Or is Jesus not the word of God, that was also God?

You're not even ashamed that you're DIRECTLY misconstruing a simple Scripture? Please who did God send to Pharaoh? Did God send himself or Moses? Exodus 3:10
Who took credit/glory for bringing Israel out of Egypt? God or Moses? Exodus 20:2

Jashub:
Ask the book of John14:9. Read it carefully and see what Jesus claimed He was. I no fit shout oga

Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1:3 will solve your John 14:9 riddle for you.
Was Jesus able to reflect his Father's qualities of love, compassion, loyalty, patience, humility & righteousness? Matthew 11:29, Mark 1:40-42, Philippians 2:3-5, Hebrews 7:26

It's not a baseless question.
Simple question what is the name of your church sir? Because whatever you're saying now we are meant to see visible application of it in real life and not just head knowledge.
I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I consider only those in my faith to be true Christians. Reason is because Jesus said the road to everlasting life is very very very narrow and only a few are finding it. Matthew 7:13-14; Luke 13:24; Ephesians 4:1-6
So rephrase that statement again, because people who have conflicting beliefs and customs and who are always in disagreement CANNOT all be worshipers of the same God no matter how hard you try to sugarcoat it. 1Corinthians 14:33,40

Jashub:
That questions is completely basesless. Are we not all Christians? The heaven you are going to is it different from mine? Please be guided.

Jashub please what is the name of your church let's inspect whether your pastor and church members share your views?

Janosky:
Bros, shalom..

In many Bible versions, it reads " a god" (demon for sure..) was conjured to speak to Saul.
Even though na another person, Saul won't mind, he was that desperate. At that moment, he was desperate to find out the outcome of the forthcoming battle with the Philistines..

Satan and his demons have several tactics and devices(2Cor 2:11,11:13-15) and demons are known for speaking half-truths so I don't get what the guy is so worked up about.
For example, the servant girl who had the power to foretell the future in Paul's time did so with the help of demons. You'll notice that she kept pestering Paul and Silas and was drawing attention to them so that opposers would be aware of their whereabouts. Acts 16:16-19

So my brother, wasn't it already obvious that Saul had lost the upcoming battle against the Philistines since Jehovah was no more on his side?

If we're to go by engrchykae's analogy, why would Jehovah now subject his own prophet to a debased condition and give replies to someone who had deviated from his way through means that are abominable to God? Deuteronomy 18:10-12?

I'm not sure it was a baptized Witness engrchykae had a discussion with if not all of these would have been panned out.

engrchykae:
there is more to life than religion, Daniel is my best friend,a witness.
But your church people have no go areas when discussing.
Non participation in secular politics thereby letting hoodlums decide the date of everyone.

So let me get this straight—because Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to participate in politics, they're the cause of the problems humans are facing right? Oga I already told you not to get emotional about these things. See who is telling me to be open-minded. The Witness you claim you spoke to, didn't he give you Bible-based answers that supports our stand? John 17:14-16,18:36 ??

I asked my friend Daniel"what happened in the book of Samuel where the witch summoned Samuel"he dismissed it away.
I also asked him about where the Bible said that an evil spirit from God tormented King Saul,he also talked down on it.
I asked him about sons of God in Genesis 5,he already have "no go areas"
But he is my best friend,religion is for stupid people, humanity first before religion.

Please what are you talking about?
Are you sure it was one of dedicated and baptized Jehovah's Witnesses you spoke to?

engrchykae:
am not referring to you.
But you see my brother,a seeker of truth must be open minded.
When a seeker of truth narrows his view through the obstacles of religious biase,it will be difficult to find the truth.
I don't discuss with deeper lifers and

JWs

because they are not open for discussion.
They already have "no go areas"in their minds.
There shouldn't be sacred grounds when we want to philosophies

But the person you replied to, was replying to me
So sir don't use all these ones as cover-up because I know from your statements that you already have deep-seated hatred for Jehovah's Witnesses. JWs are obeying Jesus' command to preach and teach the truth about Jehovah, Jesus and God's Kingdom to their neighbours in over 240 lands. Matthew 24:14, 28:19-20
So if you feel you know better, go and do your own let everyone observe and make conclusions for themselves.

engrchykae:
I thank God for you.
Don't allow any idiot force his denominational truth on you

Okay so I'm an idiot because I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses shey?
Sir this isn't something that you have to get emotional and childish about.
Just quote me directly let's have a 1-on-1 discussion from the Bible if you feel you're up for it.

DelphiOracle:
well said. Are u one of Jehovah's witnesses?

Yes I am.

jesusjnr2020:
Like I said earlier, it's a good thing you admitted that error, but good would become better if you'd also admit the others.

My being honest should tell you that I'm not trying to save face or mislead anybody. As you can see from the thread, many commentators[who aren't JWs] have also alluded to the fact that the men who visited Jesus were astrologers/sorcerers who practiced things forbidden in the Law. Leviticus 20:6, Deuteronomy 18:10-12
If God was the one who directed the astrologers, then he would have led them directly to where Jesus was and not to Jerusalem where Herod was situated.
So God couldn't have been the one who revealed details about the Messiah to worshipers of pagan gods since God at that time revealed details of prophecies to only his Israelite-born servants/prophets. Amos 3:7

jesusjnr2020:
You seem to lack knowledge that it takes two to conspire, hence your unwarranted lame excuses that you said this but did not say that.

Good though that you admitted your error, because only Hero's had ulterior motives concerning what he did, which completely exonerates the wise men of any guilt.

Exactly so like I said, it was the wrong English word I used.
Herod “privately summoned” them because he had ulterior motives

BigBashiru:
You are the person confusing yourself.

Cursed be Canaan = cursed be Canaan and his generations/seeds which includes Ham

There is no other credible explanation for Africa's backwardness and slavery if not thru the lens of this curse.

Which continent is the most useless today??

Therefore, Ham is the son of Canaan?

BigBashiru:
A curse was placed on Adam...you and me were "in Adam" at the time the curse was placed so we the seeds of Adam are also cursed....

Then we have generational curses.

When Canaan was cursed, him and his generations/seeds were cursed which includes Ham/ Africa

So you're saying that Ham is the son of Canaan or is it vice versa? Which one is it sir?