₦airaland Forum

benalvino3:
I am not corrupt.

WILL YOU SHATTAP AT ONCE AND TAKE BACK THIS DEMONIC LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL? ? ? ? IMMEDITALEY! IMMEDIATELY!

cococandy:
Yes there are exceptions and yes hardwork will pay eventually but black people are not at the bottom of the wealth gap because they do not work hard. That lie falls apart the moment you look at American history and the actual data. Black people worked through slavery with no pay.

Worked through segregation with lower wages. Worked through discrimination where jobs, promotions, unions, land ownership, business loans, and housing opportunities were deliberately blocked. You cannot build generational wealth when the system spends generations preventing you from owning assets. The average Black family is not starting from the same financial starting line.

White families were able to pass down homes, businesses, land, investments, and inheritances for generations. Many Black families were locked out of those opportunities through redlining, discriminatory banking, predatory lending, unequal schools, mass incarceration, and policies that stripped wealth from Black neighborhoods while wealth was expanding elsewhere.

And even today, Black Americans still work at extremely high rates across healthcare, transportation, education, logistics, retail, public service, manufacturing, and countless other industries. The issue is not laziness. The issue is ownership, access to capital, inheritance, home values, investment opportunity, and systems that historically allowed one group to accumulate wealth while another group was denied the same access.

You cannot tell people to “just work harder” when many Black families have been working for centuries while being denied the same return on that work. That is not a personal failure. That is a measurable economic pattern.

So lucid, so clear, so rational, so rightly said. I just dont know how something this simple can be impossible for some people to understand.
Well said, classy woman.

benalvino3:
Wow 😱😱😱😳😳😳

It exists in the West. Ask the democrats what they are doing with Medicaid and the pirates in Minnesota.

But continue with this stupid whataboutism if you may.

Corruption is not a thing in the state of the country because there is corruption elsewhere

I have lectured you enough for today. If you like, take notes, if you like dont take notes. Exam is coming and when I give my papers and you fail, I will visit you with a satanic plague.

Mind you everything you write here is part of continuous assessment and takes 98 per cent of the marks.

Now scurry along to your next shift as a parking attendant at Ajegunle High School.

benalvino3:
I am not corrupt. But Nigeria has a problem with corruption. Even if you are not, you are forced to be corrupt.

The police is a good example, the lecturers you paid to get good grades, etc.

We could have easily said no and go through the stress and process fighting it. But the whole country is corrupt.

And it is Swiss Banks or Wall Street that dont have galactic levels of corruption. You neva hala. You are still not thinking anything through whatsoever. You have to keep asking what the factors for each situation are, and then you will understand. You cant just say, the problem is X people are corrupt and Y people are not. You have to ask why that is the case.

bayelsaowei:
Let Trump and his ilks be in power for another four decades and watch how America retrogresses into a third world country.

I have been drawing a lot of parallels between the America of today and Nigeria.. so much similarities.

I swear!

The US will unravel so fast!

But they are lucky they have a system that will make sure it all comes to an end no matter what. Trump will go, and the parade and drunkenness and madness of over a decade will end and posterity will judge everything.

benalvino3:
Nigeria can only change when the people move away from these cultures : greed, corruption, negligence, etc.

Just take a look at this last line and the last three words. Are you naive enough to imagine that these things STILL do not exist in the West? You dont have half an idea what you are saying. You are basically saying things will get better when we are perfect humans.

benalvino3:
With all the corruption and magu-magu, insecurity, etc.

That is getting worse with time, we need more time, we are just starting.

You are delusional.

Nigeria can only change when the people move away from these cultures : greed, corruption, negligence, etc.

You are the one who is delusional if you imagine that these things are unique to Nigeria or Africa. If you think that the Western world did not also go through all this - necessarily.

I cant even imagine what you are saying. Are you thinking at all? Do you think nations just pop into existence fully formed and perfect or what? The job that has taken the USA 250 years even after all the advantages it had from Europe, you expect to be done here in sixty years and in SA in even less!

Joker!

benalvino3:
Don't bring climate to this talk then. We have been wasteful.

How many nights do we need. Israel got it right in so quick they visited the United States and started sharing their farming techniques with them.

All the tools they needed to succeed were there. If you cant do it yourself, call in the foreign experts to help. But those expert can't help in budget allocation and how to run the country. They can't help to groom the thoughts of the people, behavior and lifestyle.

We have a corrupt culture in Nigeria. Africa as a whole. We are so greedy.

You are the one who only wants to look at the adolescence of a boy and judge his life by it. His life consists of birth, infancy, childhood, puberty, adolescence, young manhood, early adulthood, middle age, early old age, advanced old age, death.

Saying what you are saying is exactly like saying we should look at his puberty in exclusion and not consider the circumstances of his birth or childhood and judge him in finality with that, even forgetting the future he still has.

You are the one being absurd and simplistic.

And oh, as for Israel, you are doing the same thing. Looking at only one tiny patch of a very complicated 3000 year old history!

And then comparing it to brand new countries of sixty years.

benalvino3:
Start from scratch?
How many years are you suggesting?
Why are all the waterboards dead?

Why can't we refine our own oil?

Are we going to need 200 years to have running tap water when we already had that in the 60s?

So the issue is not simply 60 years is too small. 60 years is small if a country is building serious institutions. But 60 yeas is long enough to know whether a country is moving forward or going backward.

In everything i am saying one thing you must not think is that I am saying we have not been ridiculously wasteful, corrupt and deplorable in managing our affairs. There is that too.

Simple truth is that no nation got it right suddenly, magically or overnight either.

benalvino3:
What multitude of factors that are at play? You are just wasting people's time looking for excuses when the issues have been stretch and made big enough for you to see.

So stoo hiding behind multitude of factors, I already named them: leadership, corruption, weak institutions, tribalism, insecurity, bad education, poor planning, energy failure, and no maintenance culture.

Nobody said black people are daft. That is your strawman. The point is that many African governments and societies tolerate failure, corruption, and decay. We have a greedy mindset or should I say culture. It is why you see corruption from the ground up. It's not only politicians that are the problem. You know why I keep saying people like you are why the country has failed?

This is 2026. Independence was in the 1960. Man reached space in that same era. Countries with worse starting conditions rebuilt themselves. Israel turned desert into cities. Singapore had no natural resources. South Korea rose from poverty. Germany and Japan rebuilt after destruction. Should I go on?

So after 60+ years, blaming climate and history for abandoned water systems, bad roads, no electricity, corrupt contracts, and public theft is just excuse-making.

Climate can make development harder. It does not steal public funds. It does not abandon hospitals. It does not rebuild the same road every four years. People and governments do that.

Sixty years is a small time in the life of a nation - a nation just starting up. Without the same built up systems which those who colonized the space already have built up over centuries.

Look man, just point me to one developed nation that became independent for the first time only 60 years ago and I will put my hands up.

Some of the things you say are just shallow beyond comprehension. I have explained before how you cannot compare developing nations to nations seemingly starting from scratch only because they had a war and all their infrastructure was destroyed. The educated mind is already there, the institutions and traditions have already evolved. Rebuilding is a short question of money. In Europe you had the Marshall plan from the USA or you dont know the billions given to Europe to rebuild by America? Same with Japan, you dont know the role of America in quickly rebuilding Japan? You cannot be so ignorant as to compare these scenarios to African nations becoming independent for the first time, many of which were cobbled together in such a way as to guarantee conflict such as Nigeria.

I already explained how Europe had to fight out its conflicts over a thousand years but you expect these new nations forced together in an artificial manner to do so in sixty years. You cant be serious.

And people like you keep comparing Singapore, a country that is a single city, to complex behemoths like Nigeria.

You need to think deeper.

benalvino3:
One simple question, how did Israel and Saudi Arabia build cities and farms from a barren land (desert)?

And as to this question, surely you know the history.
Maybe you will also want to dismiss the role of oil and petro dollars in the case of Saudi, Qatar and the UAE and claim that its simply because they are smart, good, hard working people and nothing else.

While we understand that there are countries such resources have been a curse to, we still need to compare apples for apples. The start line, history, circumstances and trajectory of each is different.

Let me also add: when did Saudi Arabia become what it is today? Where was it for example, when other countries were advanced in the early 20th century? Why was it not like Europe or Japan or America?

You see? Time, cycles, factors. Its not magic.

benalvino3:
One simple question, how did Israel and Saudi Arabia build cities and farms from a barren land (desert)?

So stop pretending the argument is environment does not matter.

Environment matters, but it does not excuse corruption, incompetence, tribal politics, poor maintenance, and bad leadership forever.

God did not create the earth with skyscrapers and oil rigs. Society is about developing and adapting to your environment. We have completely failed.

And black countries are not even all in the same geography. Africa has deserts, rainforests, savannahs, mountains, coastlines, mineral-rich zones, oil-producing regions, fertile lands, and major river systems.

So this lazy temperate zone vs tropical zone argument cannot explain everything.

Of course it does not account for everything, a multitude of factors are at play. It is just a cardinal root factor for how societies get set in their foundational attitudes. You are the one being lazy because if you are not, you will note that I have repeatedly said its a huge subject and many factors interplay such as history, trade, wars, ripple effects, etc. One thing builds on another for every result that you see.

The real laziness is saying that one set of people is just brilliant and good and another are just daft and bad without trying to discern the factors behind the outcomes.

wellmax:
GEJ is a politician, politicians know people will abuse and insult them. People today insult Tinubu without any consequences.

But attacking the child of a private person is a no go area.

Let the guy rot in jail.

Its bad, but not something any one should be imprisoned for.

Stephen0mozzy:
There's a line you should not cross.
1. A man's family
2. A man's child

Which kain justice for trolls activism wey dis one dey do?

Bad yes, but should not be criminalized.

If things were like this in the USA that we borrowed our system and constitution from, almost every Democrat will be in prison today because of the amount of yabbis they heap on Trump. And vice versa if a Democrat was president.

GloriousGbola.

Cough, cough.

basilico:
You are not wrong at all with your anthology. Why are we still lagging when there are enough blueprints to move us forward. The wheel was already invented.
Include African Americans too.

Great post in that attachment from last year from you. You totally get it. Therefore with you, to some extent I am preaching to the choir. I am surprised you already understand this and still have the approach you do concerning Africans.

basilico:
You are not wrong at all with your anthology. Why are we still lagging when there are enough blueprints to move us forward. The wheel was already invented.
Include African Americans too.

The truth is that many other factors come into play. This is real life we are analyzing not a stage play. The reasons why a person was late to work on a certain day can be up to ten. It can be because he had an emergency. It can be because he stayed up all night nacking his woman. It can be because he got drunk the night before. It can be because he was ill. It can be because his car broke down. It can be because armed robbers attacked him on his way to work. It can be because he is lazy. It can be because he hates his job. It can be because he is not motivated because he is treated badly at work. It can be because he is thinking of resigning.

Most importantly it can be all of these reasons or a combination of some of them at the same time!

In answer to your question in bold, the simple answer is that this independence thing we are talking about is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too recent in terms of the life of nations! It is a nano-second. There is almost no way that things will not evolve, by the end of this century for example. Its a process that has to be lived through and it just seems like you guys want to skip the process and magically arrive at perfect development. It can never work that way no matter how globalized the world is because these are human and not robot societies! Things will stand in the way such as illiteracy, conflict, prejudice, corruption, etc. Each of these is a challenge that will have to be worked through with time.

benalvino3:
This is a shame. Wait for my response.

Sure.
But make sure to include your own explanation for the state of affairs!
Danke!

benalvino3:
There is no logic in your reasoning.

I have said it's people like you. That's my reason for the state of African nations. People like you are the reason our situations are bleak.

Point out the flaws.

You cannot even follow simple reasoning.

Oya tell me the map of the temperate zones is a coincidence.

What I am telling you is as simple and as kindergarten as saying that a freezing person will have to look for heat and that has ripple effects and you are denying such self evident things. Shior.

At the end of the day even if we use an extreme example and say one person was put in an oasis and he prospered, and another person was put in a barren desert and he starved, you basically will want to say that the person who starved only starved because he was not intelligent and the person who prospered in the oasis prospered because he was brilliant.

You will bring up their respective culture like Tctrills and forget that their environment dictated their culture.

The tragedy is that if the person who starved was white you will make excuses for him. But if he was black you will say it's because he was daft and claim that anyone who points out that he was in a desert was making excuses and not taking responsibility.

The factors I have pointed out are backed by detailed and extensive academic studies.

If you say they are rubbish, lets have your explanation.

benalvino3:
Are you sure you know what you have been doing here?

I am giving you logical reasons for the state of affairs.

What are your own reasons for the state of affairs?

What a shallow stupid boy. After all the Citi Boy tomfoolery.

Princedapace:
I was battling with network issues recently, and it reminded me how difficult it has become to survive here. There is no stable electricity. Most of us survive on generators.

South Africa achieved significant progress in electricity within two years, yet after four years, nothing meaningful has changed here. It is still the same story and the same daily struggle.

Now, remove emotions for a moment and look at the reality:

A kilogram of gas is about ₦1,400. That is extremely high for a country with very low salaries.
A crate of eggs is between ₦5,500 and ₦6,000.
A bag of cement is around ₦12,000. This is one of the reasons house rent has skyrocketed, because many citizens can no longer afford to build homes.
Renting a 2-bedroom apartment in most state capitals now starts from about ₦2.5 million and above. That is insane for a country where the majority of citizens are struggling financially.
Fuel is around ₦1,400 per litre.

Fuel powers our generators. If you run two businesses, you may need two generators.

For someone like me who works online, I need electricity almost 24/7. A huge part of my income goes into fueling and servicing generators because, most nights, my generator runs till morning. I work with clients across different time zones, sometimes at 2AM.

What does all of this mean?

Our purchasing power has dropped drastically.

Yet, despite these realities, the tax burden keeps increasing.

I honestly want to ask: does the government truly understand what Nigerians are going through?

Even someone earning ₦25m–₦30m yearly in today’s Nigeria is not necessarily living comfortably. A large percentage of that income already goes into solving basic social problems and surviving.

You pay for:

Electricity
Security
Healthcare
Transportation
Water
Education

Everything.

So where exactly is the money left to pay huge taxes from?

How many Nigerians can genuinely save millions yearly after handling all their responsibilities as parents, children, and providers?

To survive, many people are already being forced to reduce their quality of life:

Cutting down electricity usage despite terrible heat
Moving children from good schools
Switching from bottled water to sachet water
Selling better cars for cheaper alternatives because of fuel costs
Cancelling vacations and basic comfort

The painful part is that many self-employed Nigerians hustle endlessly just to stay afloat, yet at the end of the year, they are still expected to pay heavy taxes.

One of my friends, despite earning what many would call “good money,” is already in debt because of school fees and living expenses. Yet, government expectations are based only on income figures, not the harsh realities behind those figures.

And remember, this is a country where many parents depend on their children financially just to survive.

Honestly, many leaders cannot relate to what ordinary Nigerians are facing because:

Their electricity is sorted
Their security is sorted
Their healthcare is sorted
Their feeding is sorted

So they may never truly feel the pain of the average citizen.

Dear Nigerian leaders, Nigerians are suffering.

We are exhausted.

What could be done differently?

Reduce excessive tax burdens. Maybe 3 percent for now. Please, this country is poor or increase the threshold to maybe 50m per year if you truly wants to target the rich for income tax.
Fix electricity.
Tackle corruption seriously.
Improve security so farmers can return to farms safely.
Support the tech economy so more young people can earn online.
Invest in skills and digital opportunities.
Cut down excessive government spending and luxury packages for politicians.

Nigeria is a poor country with multidimensional poverty. In many homes, one working person carries the burden of an entire extended family.

Tax should not be the first priority when citizens are already struggling to survive.

As I write this now, my area is in complete darkness again. Families will spend heavily on fuel tonight just to have light for a few hours.

So I ask again: after paying for survival, where exactly should the tax money come from?

We are tired.

The bills are too much.

please can someone push this to front page?

I want to understand why the sacrfice must be done by the suffering masses instead of the politicians. I am curios to know why. Why must I suffer what I didn't cause?

There is no sane reason to vote him. Most of the people who will do so fall into the following categories -

1. Will vote him for tribal sentiment

2. Will vote him because they personally benefit (connections, contracts, are paid to, etc)

3. Are completely insulated from the effects of the hardship he has induced and thus seems nothing wrong with the Economy

thrillionaire:
Keep defending nonsense and encouraging evil trolls.
If you like, go and troll someone too and you'll chop watery beans in kirikiri for 10 years even. Rubbixh

Behold. I am the wind. Untouchable. Uncatchable.

basilico:
Deepsight.
We don't really need history to know why Africa lags behind.
We know how the Asian tigers built theirs. We know how the Europeans and Americand built theirs. Do we need to go to their starting point.No we don't.
They had plans that they implemented.
We have amazing plans also. Short term, intermediate and long term .

I kinda feel you are still blaming others for our sorry state. We are our own enemies, simple .
Let the causes of why we remain (ed) stagnant be studied by historians as we stride ahead to an $11 trillion economy by 2050.

If you don't understand the reasons for your problems, not only will you not know the right way to approach them, you will suffer psychologically from the prejudices and denigrations of those who will mischaracterize them.

And when you say I am blaming others, would those others include the climate, and natural barriers such as the Sahara Desert and the Oceans all of which I have mentioned?

This is not a blame game.

It is anthropology.

anonimi:
The two are linked and intertwined, but enlightenment can reverse them

Please clarify. Your answer is not clear.

anonimi:
What I see is our failure to accept responsibility for our inability to evolve from the self centric model that holds us down, into enlightened self interest.

It’s the mindset that made us the only race to massively sell its own people to others, in the way that the Jewish brothers sold Joseph to the Egyptian.

The saddest part is how we insisted on continuing the criminal trade, after oyinbos changed their minds.




What or who stopped us from doing like the Japanese leaders did to slavery

I know your position on this matter from a past discussion. That's why I copied you here. It's a massive subject and not everything can be addressed in one post.

I may or may not delve into your questions but first let me ask: what is your own explanation for how things have turned out thus far? Simple inferiority or stupidity?

anonimi:
Is there no sun and mosquito plus even worse things in the southern part of America, as well as Australia and New Zealand?

What of Caribbean islands and other islands in the Pacific Ocean

You can see the difference in gradations in each place.

anonimi:
At what point in history did oyinbos japa here to help us make our country better than theirs

You should thank the sun and the mosquito. But for these two things they would be here up till today.

And there are examples of places they did that to. America, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa.

TV01, I thank you for this. True to the deal, you have taken your time and gone through with a fine comb and made detailed responses in a scholarly manner. This does not mean I agree, but I am delighted that you have kept to the spirit. And you have invested and delivered more thought than could be said for basilico (even though in another post i was surprised to see him acknowledge the role of climate in development, something which you seem to have always dismissed lightly.

TV01:
You have said a lot. However, there is little to nothing that speaks to when or how BA nations in particular will develop in any meaningful or comparable way to WN at this point in time

Oh we will come to that. Remember also that that post was really in response to something basilico said and I have a response coming up separately for your own post which centred on South Africa.

But the short answer remains time and cycles.

A retrospective of ancient civilisations and empires that are no more, speaks nothing to say the Nigerian situation, and why it is effectively arrested in terms of development.

It is not arrested. You see, it is only because we are stuck in the moment that we see it that way. We are living in the middle of the happening. When history is looked back on, hindsight will be 20-20 and broader strokes and patterns over larger spans of time will then be visible and discernible. I insist that 66 years of independence is very little to work with, we are actually simply in the middle of our own "progress" however tortured, stunted and back-and-forth it is!

Looking back on history, you will find such periods in the life of most nations / peoples / races. Ups and downs, ebbs and flows, growth and decay, war and peace, boom and recession, and on and on it goes.

In fact, from a philosophical point of view, I dare call it the simple rhythm of life - natural as life and death and childhood and old age.

The reasons for, and the lessons from, their rise and fall are not necessarily pointers. Each one rose and fell, advanced and developed, due to a unique set of circumstances. Too unique individually and too broad as a whole to be applicable or overlay on the situations in view.

It is that very uniqueness that I call upon you to recognize enough to stop making the sort of comparisons whereby you pick on one people at one time and deride their progress as compared to another people.

The points in bold speak to positions I have repeated often. The 1st - A different history means a different development trajectory. What in the history, traditions, customs, culture or mythology or religion of BA suggests that in time they would have developed along the lines of WN? You seem to believe that left alone, in due course the Fula pastoralists would have been launching satellites or Nomadic Hutus would have invented the automobile? On what basis can you validly make that assumption.

A number of things to say here. About three things.

1. Left alone, Black African cultures would have developed differently into an altogether different kind of civilization with its own uniqueness for sure. There is no reason to suppose that they would have developed in the same way that Western Nations did - no - that is the whole point when we speak to differences in geography, climate, history, et all! So please do not make this assumption at all. And as evidence/ corroboration of this point i will use two examples - (a) Meso-America - being cut off from the rest of the world for most of recorded history, they developed in a unique and different way that also showed in the nature of their largest cities such as Tenochtitlan of the Aztec and Tikal of the Maya. (b) From the animal world and evolution, species isolated on an island without interaction from the rest of the world tend to evolve uniquely - as can be seen with some unique species in Madagascar and Australia and other places where there was long isolation of species. These two examples suffice to prove the point.

2. At all events, travel and the resultant intermixture of cultures is cardinal to development. Your statement above suggests somehow that you do not give the benefit of this fact to black African societies, while ignoring the fact that the same fact of travel and intermixing was absolutely crucial for the development of Europe for example. Why do you have this double standard? Europe developed with a lot of ideas and technologies from the middle and far east (and there is a reason for this - the geography you dismiss again). Much of the scientific and even theoretical ideas which are foundational to European development came from elsewhere through trade, wars, adventure, religion, exploration, etc. There is no reason for you to exempt Africa from the same benefit of thought when the time came in history for people to travel down the Atlantic and begin to share what the rest of the world had known. This is normal.

Let me slide in something here about the geography I mentioned which you lightly dismiss. Knowledge is a thing no one person can have or build up by himself. But once different peoples intermix, their knowledge grows faster because they build on the many things learnt from many people in many places. This is where geography comes in in one way (because there are many ways it comes in). It comes in here in terms of the ease of travel, the lay of the land which enables people to mix, travel, trade, share and even fight. And in this natural boundaries are key!

So in a nutshell, when there is a massive hostile natural boundary such as the Sahara desert between the known world and Black Africa, it is only natural that all of that shared knowledge would not filter down here at the same pace or in the same way. In fact, history would have been totally different. Just imagine if the Sahara did not exist - would the Roman Empire have stopped at North Africa? No way, it would have filtered all the way down and the influence of its culture would have reached the Atlantic just as it reached Britain and Germany. What would have stopped it again would have been natural barriers such as the rain forest, the hot and humid climate and mosquitoes.

In this way you can see just how critical that one massive hostile natural barrier - the Sahara desert has been. By contrast, North Africa, the Middle East, the Far East and Europe ALL were contiguous without the kind of overwhelming natural barrier that would stop whole empires. That is why Alexander the Great got as far as India and the Mongols got to the very doorsteps of Europe!

And in such intermixture, a great deal of learning takes place. Knowledge is shared and mixed at an incredible pace and this pace is not available to isolated areas of the world where there are massive barriers. This will explain why the aborigines of Australia for example, would be left behind. The massive barrier of the ocean and the isolation, along with other factors.

Let me add one more thing here - all of the lands of much development in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East and Asia historically - please look at them and you will find them all laid out across the temperate zone of the world. This is a very key thing which tells about the role that climate plays in civilization. And I have said that there has been much academic work on this.

I will drop the links in another post to avoid being banned.

But look at the image below this post. It delineates the temperate zones of the world. Looking at that image is quite enough to let you see what has been happening and how the major civilizations coalesed in the temperate zones. The areas in the temperate zones that did not develop at the same pace had another factor at play - massive natural barriers in terms of oceans and the like, which prevented knowledge sharing.

As a slight aside, you can see that South Africa falls within a temperate zone and that's why Europeans stayed there once they found it. Same with Australia and even parts of South America.

3. Time. it takes time for all barriers to be conquered and further time for knowledge to mix and the resultant development to occur.

The 2nd - Exactly which is why white SA move and build Orania which replicates the FD their roots\people have historically achieved. While black SA receive an intact WN like country and immediately start the inexorable drive to what their FD could achieve and maintain before Boer settlers arrived - Kraal Life!

I think what I have explained above partly answers this, but the lack of integration as a result of Apartheid was obviously problematic because the separation ensured completely parallel lines of development in every respect for the white and black societies.

Agreed for the most part. Homogeniety has to help. However patriotic fervour can be cultivated, whatever the ethnic composition. BA are unlikely to overcome tribal affiliation and clannishness to commence that journey. Somalia is ethnically homogenous bar a small Bantu demographic - who are culturally and linguistically identical - but are serially war-torn?

I can only answer this by pointing to the legion wars of the history of Europe. I know you must know this. To what end did they not fight one another? Is it England and Scotland we want to start from? Is it the Kievan Rus in Eastern Europe and all their battles there? Is it the Viking raids of Britain? Is it the one billion tiny fiefdoms in Germany and all their battles? Is it Rome and Greece? Time, cycles.

Let me insert something here. One thing leads to another. The butterfly effect, the ripple effect. You dont seem to take it into consideration in your thinking. For example, if a place is cold, people will search for heat. If they have to search for heat they will more likely come up with furnaces powered by certain fuels, such as coal. If they have to do that, they are already closer to industrializing because seeking heat power sources is the root of the power of industry. If such is their weather that their soil is frozen half the year, they have to learn quickly how to preserve things, that alone imposes a way of life and an organizational imperative without which they would die.

By contrast a people living in a land where the weather doesnt kill them and the soil is fertile all year round would not have these imperatives. They would also not build thicker housing or develop more heavy and detailed clothing!
This is very very key and you need to absorb it and not dismiss it lightly as you are wont to. Because the ripple effects seep into everything.

Has there been, could there be civilisational development? Sure, and of course. But could it advance and scale to the level of basic, not even advanced WN? There is nothing to suggest this.

Again, pertinent. But it doesn't excuse the fact that even for the individual tribes, the FD as you term it, had never developed to the degree that WN model development, especially scientific advancement and technological progress were ever in view.

This I believe I have addressed.

Don't forget, prior to WN intervention, the tribes effectively existed as separate nations. And I believe there would have been further development, more advancement. But to what degree? And I see nothing to suggest great scientific or technological strides. The prevalent superstitions for one, would have been too a great hinderance

TV01, Europe also had great superstitions, I dont need to tell you that. Secondly, if you look at the detail of Kingdoms like the Benin Kingdom right here in Nigeria, you would have no doubt whatsoever that they were well on their way, just at a different pace dictated by a different environment.

It is easy for some to call pre-colonial Africans savage and yet steal the Benin Bronzes which were clearly works of civilization at an already advanced stage of artistic endeavor!

Again to my point. It's why the vestiges of colonialism or apartheid cannot be maintained or improved upon. It's why SA under black majority rule, with it's natal F& can only journey back to where it came. It is exactly that "local mindset", not ethnicity, not skin colour that determines this.

Time. It will take time. Black SA, it can be said, is still in its infancy. There is absolutely nothing inferior or savage about them. It is just natural cycles and it is insane to ignore what they suffered under apartheid and judge them in a mere thirty years.

If you were to create a nation of ethnically black people with a critical mass of inhabitants with a WN type FD then a WN type society would emerge. Otherwise what I term "inherency" prevails. Hence why I shudder at the thought of immigration at scale from countries from a non-WN FD. We see the outworking already in the UK, as the historical FD starts to be compromised and eroded, by people from what I make no bones abut calling an inferior FD.

There is nothing to be worried about except from those societies which intrinsically by their religion abhor freedom, as freedom is critical to Western culture and it is precious in our sight.

@bold, I see your take here as wrong - a nation of immigrants yes, but overlaid on a FD that is clearly of the WN milieu. As I noted, it's not about the ethnicity, skin colour or origins, its about the prevailing FD. Everyone that arrives in America has to buy into that, or arrive with FD that is a close facsimile.

Indeed the Foundational Demographic (I have warned you about using acronyms you dont define, I assume from the context this is what you mean by FD - or at least certainly the foundational or core culture) for America was key, there is no denying that. But put that against the perspective of everything I have said about what it takes to develop - climate, weather, geography and mixture. The white demographic had had the benefit of that by the time it reached America.

In answer to what you said about exchanging say blacks with whites in a given society and seeing the result, I would ask you to think like this: Do you for one second imagine that if one hundred thousand years ago the set of people that remained in Africa were placed in Europe and the set of people that were in Europe then were placed in Africa, do you seriously imagine that every factor I have pointed out above would not similarly lead both sets along the paths that have emerged today?

Listen - denying the effect of climate and geography in this matter is therefore as bad as denying that blacks are black because of the weather, and whites are white because of same!

Stages of development yes. It does not mean that all societies ultimately morph into modern libera democracies. We haven't had these before. Hypotheses about such things as climate, fauna, etc. are just that. They cannot be falsified or empirically proven. I don't buy them.

They are cold hard indisputable facts.

Kindly evidence or expatiate on this assertion.

Evidence that empires and development are in cycles? You are kidding me right?

Splendour and grandeur are relative, and, not the sole or even necessarily a hallmark of true civilisation. With ritual sacrifices into the tens of thousands every year? Cannabalsm, Incessant tribal warfare and only basic technological advance? These were not modern-day liberal democracies, with the attendant rights, liberties and freedoms. Let alone scientific inquiry and technological advancement or capital market economies.

Here I take issue with you. Tell me which was worse - tearing out someone's heart as a sacrifice or burning / torturing and hanging hundreds of thousands of women to death at the stake on accusation of witchcraft? And I hope you know this continued in Europe for more than 200 years after they had reached the Americas? The point is that Europe also had very barbaric practices even into the modern age and therefore it is absurd that you try to wish away the civilization of Meso America on that ground alone - and this is even wishing away the fact that much of what Europeans negatively reported about the places they conquered was highly embellished to demonize them. Standard practice of conquering nations throughout history.

Thank you for the detailed effort. See the map showing temperate zones of the world below.

cc: Ijebos / LordReed / cococandy / bemeruca / benalvino3 / Obrigardo / GracieX3 / raumdeuter / anonimi / GloriousGbola / RogersAkpafu /Bayelsaowei (I copy you all because I lbelieve this topic is foundational to a lot discussed on this thread in terms of racial issues and just so that you are abreast where the issues come up in future discussions. So please dont be irritated, especially with the length.

cc: lionessza6 / irongalaxy / - I copy you because of the South Africa angle. Some posters here try to deride the progress of South Africa, and i see that as wrong and short sighted, I see a broadly historical perspective.

basilico:
The way you frame things like someone who never went to school stands out like a sore thumb. Very easy to spot.
When you change your handje a careful person should be able to smoke you out by your second post.

Jesus, please. I was going to say something, but for Treaty.

Ijebosc:
There won't be any.
They used to accuse me of being anyone in this thread who sounded smart and wrote in complete sentences.
In those days they(Bemeruca and his bestie sly) would have accused you of being me.

Actually one of them made such an accusation some weeks back. It was either budaatum or someone else who said it cant be because you would not openly criticize Islam as I do. But the fact that the accusation was made shows you have a point.

Melagros:
COMRADES, if this killing is true, fine. But my question is that; those Nairalanders supporting Iranians, what will they say about this news? Will they commend USA for this feat or will they still condemn the US?

Nigerian Army had said they killed the same man two years ago.