₦airaland Forum

solite3:
I am not trying to make a case for the textus receptus here but to show you that even those older manuscripts have issues so you cannot say that Alpha and omega in revelation 1:11 was added. Shalom

good, so from your research, pls tell us where the Textus Receptus Got rev 1:11 from?

johnw74:
dolphinheart denies saying God and the Word is a two headed god

johnw74: God and the Word is God

dolphinheart: your god is a two headed god

now if Lie Lie dolphinheart isn't referring to God and the Word as my two headed god
then who is he referring to?


Lie Lie dolphinheart

continue reading 607 & 1914 here:
http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/607-7-times.php

more lies from Lie Lie false jw:

AND UP TILL NOW YOU COULD NOT PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF WHERE I SAID SO!
lie lie john!

johnw74:
Lie lie dolphinheart
you know as well as I do that the conversation wen't something like

johnw74: God and the Word is God

dolphinheart: your god is a two headed god

now you were referring to my God, "God and the Word"

but twist away, it's one of those things false jw do

and bring out the post yourself, you are deluded to think I'm going search back for false jw,
I would do it for brocab a Christian.

when someone wants to lie or defend a lie, the bolded words will Come up.
They will never categorically say " this is what I said and this is where and how I said it"
they are sure of what I said and where I said, but when asked to produce facts, they are now fomulating probabilities.
imagine saying I said something from a conversation that you are not sure of!

solite3:
nooo the textus Receptus didn't undermine older manuscripts

sir, I'll advice that you read my statements very well before you reply, did I say that the Textus Receptus undermine older manuscripts? no! I was talking about the Web page trying to give surpport to the Textus Receptus by undermining older manuscripts and texts that the Textus Receptus defered from.

The Web page, even with all its undermining, could not give a defence as to why the Textus Receptus had " Alpha and omega in rev 1:11

if those so called manuscripts have flaws then you can't use it to make a claim.

like I said earlier, that method of attack is flawed, cus if that same line is used for the Textus Receptus, it will fall like a pack of cards.
fortunately for us, we are not talking about the book of rev in general, we are talking about just one verse! You have failed to show that the much older manuscripts where flawed in that particular verse(note: this is a fact).
Erasmus admitted to having flaws in the Textus Receptus, he thus tried to adjust some of those flaws in subsequent editions, should I use that as a basis for rejecting it's record of rev 1:11 like you are trying to do for older manuscripts?

So far the assumptions that since "Alpha and Omega"in revelations1:11 is not in the supposed older manuscripts(which are very few compared to the ones that are lost) then it was added to thetkjv is baseless and flawed, since those older manuscripts also have flaws.

fact 2: the older manuscripts, which scholars have termed to be more reliable, which Erasmus could not use cus he did not have them ,DO NOT HAVE THE WORDS " Alpha and omega" in rev 1:11
fact 3: the older manuscripts are not "supposed" older manuscripts. They are in fact very much older than the Textus Receptus or the sources the Textus Receptus got its texts from!
like I said, using that general logic to cancel the authenticity of a particular verse has a more lethal and devastating effect on the Textus Receptus.

then what proof do you have that Alpha now Omega as found in kjv was added

I just stated a fact which you failed to respond to :" you have failed to show how the Textus Receptus came about the word "Alpha and omega" found in rev 1:11
that statement is proof enough that the word " Alpha and omega was added to that verse.
If something cannot be found in a particular verse of a manuscript that existed a long time ago, and then was seen in a printed work hundred of years later, it remains for the person who added it to show reasons for the addition. If such one claim that those words where in that verse originally and then removed, SUCH ONE SHOULD SHOW PROOF THAT SUCH WORDS WHERE IN THAT VERSE ORIGINALLY!, failure to show such proof shows that the additions where spurious with no claim.
any attempt to discredit the older manuscripts,but not discreditin their record of that particular verse is not accepted.

you can't say Alpha and Omega was added only because some older manuscripts do not have it

pls list the older manuscripts that have those words in that verse
is not only say it was added, I'm claiming its spurious with no tangible defense for its addition.

you are drawing conclusions from what is generally believed,you have not been able to prove
that Alpha and Omega was added to revelations1:11 you are just making assumptions

I was just showing you how illogical your use of supposed general flaws in the older manuscripts is. It's good to see that the same logic as used by the Web page will not be accepted by you if it's used against the Textus Receptus.

it is so unfortunate that one cannot make you see straight let me tell you revelations was a source of debate during the early times.

anytime you are being asked a thought provoking question you can't answer, you tend to divert away from it, refusing to respond to it!
yes the book of revelevation was a source of debate in earlier times, even up till now it's still a source of debate but:
Does the few that have rev 1:11 in them include the words "Alpha and omega", if so, which one!?
is the late canonisation of the book of Revelation caused by its early corruption? answer and add proof.
is rev 1:11 currupted in the earliest manuscripts?
answer and add proof

older manuscripts doesn't mean they where the original one.making alligations as usual,there are hundreds of verses that proves Trinity.
[right]moreover, you have failed to tell us this manuscript that is in possession of these church fathers, that the Textus Receptus copied rev 1:11 from!

you are just trying to divert again, I did not claim that the older manuscripts where the original ones. but the older manuscripts claimed it's source from the original ones or copies of the original ones, something the Textus Receptus does not even try to claim.

The bolded parts are mine own words, not yours!,SO STOP REMOVING WORDS FROM MY QUOTES AND AD ING IT TO YOURS!

so pathetic for you

you cannot provide just one variant? you make claims and cannot give just one evidence? yet you claim to have done research?

all the facts you are trying to use against revelation 1:11 are just assumptions

1. you failed to defend the fact that you are just posting allegations with no facts to surpport it.
2. I've shown you facts above, you cannot disprove it
3. I've focused my facts on the issue under discussion , which is rev 1:11
4. Once again , you failed to respond to a very important part of the discussion:
pls dnt stop, pls tell us how the Textus Receptus come about the words it added to rev 1:11, ""Alpha and omega". where did it get it from?

johnw74:
Yes, I showed with scripture that "God and the Word is God"

dolphinheart replied "your god is a two headed god"

it's a long time back, do you want me to find and post it?

now what I actually said is different from what you initially gold brocab I said, so pls go ahead, bring out the post and let's see my full reply to you.

johnw74:
bro, there are so many Bible verses showing that the Holy Spirit is personable,
and there is no forgiveness for any who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, and yet false jw say the Holy Spirit is an "it".

They will hold onto one verse and disbelieve a multitude.

God is a Spirit, and God is Holy, Christians know that the Holy Spirit is God, and not an "it",
false jw blaspheme all over the place.

They know nothing but lies, taught them originally by the father of lies.

Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

@underline, along with satan, the pharasees were part of murdering Jesus Christ.

false jw blaspheme God preaching that Jesus Christ is "a god"
and that the Holy Spirit is an "it"

dolphinheart said that God and the Word is "a two headed god"

You should do what I do, and not commune with them except to show up some of their lies now and then,
we are not supposed to throw our pearls (truth) to dogs and swine.

Jesus said:
Mat_7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

^^^
That's what false jw do isnt it, with all the scriptures we post to them,
they trample them under their feet and then turn and attack you.

There is much in the Bible about pharasee jw and other sectarians and non believers.

pls, pls, pls ,pls pls pls, DNT LIE AGAINST ME!, DNT ALTER MY WORDS TO MEAN SOME THING ELSE.

You can refuse to discuss, but lying against by altering their words is a new low, a really deep one!

johnw74:
that's the fourth time you say the same lie,

I did say false jw was queer didn't I

[img]http://jwfacts.com[/img] for you

here are more false jw lies to add to your own:

This is what the Watchtower said about
Eve’s creation and 1975 BEFORE 1975
“According to reliable Bible chronology, Adam and Eve
were created in 4026 B.C.E.” (Awake!, 10-8-68, p. 14)
“Therefore, God’s seventh day and the time man has been on
earth apparently run parallel. To calculate where man is in the
stream of time relative to God’s seventh day of 7,000 years,
we need to determine how long a time has elapsed from the
year of Adam and Eve’s creation in 4026 B.C.E. ....Thus,
eight yearsremain to account for a full 6,000 years of the
seventh day. Eight yearsfrom the autumn of 1967 would
bring us to the autumn of 1975, fully 6,000 yearsinto God’s
seventh day, his rest day.” (The Watchtower, 5-1-68, p. 271)
“At the age of 130 another son was born to her. Eve called
his name Seth....” (Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971 ed., p.
538). If this information is compared to the chart in the lower
right-hand corner of page 333 of the same volume, one will
see, “From Adam’s creation to the birth of Seth” was “130
years”. Hence, both Adam and Eve were 130 years old when
Seth was born, implying they were both created in the same
year.
“It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be
according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign
of Jesus Christ, the ‘Lord of the sabbath,’ to run parallel with
the seventh millenniumof man’s existence.” (Life
Everlasting-In Freedom of the Sons of God, p. 30)
“Even if one cannot see beyond 1975, is this any reason to be
less active? The apostles could not see even this far; they
knew nothing about 1975....If they had delayed or dillydallied
and had been complacent with the idea the end was some
thousands of years off they would never have finished
running the race set before them.” (The Watchtower, 8-15-68,
p. 501)
“Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not
reason to increase our activity?...Reports are heard of
brothers selling their homes and property and planning to
finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the
pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short
time remaining before the wicked world’s end.” (Kingdom
Ministry, May 1974, p. 3) [Question: Was this sound counsel
offered by the Society? What do you think happened to those
who sold their homes and property and spent all the money,
after it was apparent that they were misled about 1975? What
would you have done?]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jehovahs-witnesses-answered.htm

to be continued tomorrow



more truth on the sect that is called jehovahs' witnesses at these sites:

http://jwfacts.com/

https://carm.org/jehovahs-witnesses

if I respond to this, will you discuss it? no
Will you give me a chance to tell my own understanding? no
even if I do attempt to tell you my understanding, will you listen to me? no
Why?, because you dnt discuss with jw's, how do you expect them to answer your questions.
well you can continue in your stance, it saves me time to respond to you.
you are the sole talker here , so continue
once in a while, I'll respond with lie lie john!

brocab:
dolphinheart you ask for answers, so we good Christians give them to you, and then you refuse them, by comparing the scriptures, you have argued over words that is written in the bibles, you are trying to turn the word of God against each other, and of course you are calling us lairs because "we" as in you" have shared the word from these bibles we all read from.
Really how can anyone take you serious? Everyone who has access to the net, can find all the information they need about the word. Truly "you are mocking not ourselves' but you are mocking the word of God.
What your problem is your blindness can only take you further away from the truth.

BROCAB, YOU HAVE FOMULATED YOUR DOCTRINE FROM DERIVED AND INDIRECT ANALOGY OF THE SCRIPTURES, THUS YOU CANNOT ANSWER QUESTIONS THAT SHOWS YOUR DOCTRINE TO BE FALSE. YOU ARE READY TO READ SOME SCRIPTURES, BUT WHEN OTHERS ARE BEING POSTED TO YOU , YOU ACT AS IF IT DOES NOT EXIST AND REFUSE TO EXPLAIN THEM.
HERE ARE SOME OF THOSE QUESTIONS AND SCRIPTURES
READERS PLS NOTE THAT HE COULD NOT GIVE A REPLY TO THE QUESTIONS OR EXPLAIN THE SCRIPTURES SHOWN TO HIM, HENCE HE IS NOW TRYING TO CHANGE THE ISSUES BEING DISCUSSED


BELOW IS MY RESPONSE TO YOUR POST, PLS RESPOND!

brocab:
Now I am not expecting you to read or understand this page-but their are to types of Christians in this world No 1-Christians believe, No 2-Christians that don't believe.
The word of God is the truth, no man will deny the truth.
Jesus is the most important person who has ever lived since He is our saviour. God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man, In other words Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the word who was God, and was with God, and was made flesh {John 1:1,14} This means in a single person of Jesus He has both the human and divine nature, God and man. The divine nature was not changed when the word became flesh {John 1:1, 14} Instead the word was joined with humanity {Colossians 2:9} Jesus' divine nature was not altered. Also, Jesus is not merely a man, who had God within Him, nor is He a man who "manifested the God principle. "He is God in flesh. Second person of the trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory, and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word {Hebrews 1:3} Jesus's two natures are not mixed together. Look up the word {Eutychianism} nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. look up {Monophysitism} They are separated yet act as a unit in the One person of Jesus. this is called the {Hypostatic Union}

WHAT DID JESUS OUR SAVIOR SAY ABOUT GAINING EVALASTING LIFE?
King James Version
Joh 17:1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joun 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

SOME CLAIM JESUS IS FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN BUT CAN NOT EXPLAIN HOW JESUS BEING FULLY GOD WAS :
1. Giving authority by someone else
King James Version
[b]Joh 5:26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
imagine, claiming someone is fully God yet he being given authority by someone else!

2. giving power by someone else
King James Version
Joh 3:35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

English Standard Version
On one of those days, as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting there, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was with him to heal.

Guys, check out the only true god!
Jer 27:4Give them this command for their masters: “‘“This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, says; this is what you should say to your masters,
Jer 27:5‘It is I who made the earth, mankind, and the beasts that are on the surface of the earth by my great power and by my outstretched arm; and I have given it to whomever I please.
can you guys see the difference!, yet they claim jesus is fully God.


3. Is not able to take any initiative by himself except what he sees another doing.

King James Version
Joh 5:19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
imagine fully God can do nothing of himself.

4. will be shown greater works
King James Version
Joh 5:20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

5. calls someone else his God.
[b]King James Version
Joh 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


6.cannot give certain things
King James Version
Mt 20:23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

7. does not know certain things
matt 24:36 English Standard Version
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

8. fully God and yet said this.
King James Version
Mt 27:46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


SOME PREFER TO USE UNSCRIPTURAL WORDS AND TERMS TO DESCRIBE JESUS, BUT WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES SAY WHEN JESUS CAME TO EARTH.

john 1:14
English Standard Version
And the Word BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the ONLY SON FROM THE FATHER, full of grace and truth.

King James Bible
And the Word was MADE FLESH , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

did that verse say Jesus added flesh to his divine nature? no
did it say Jesus had two natures? no
what glory did it say we beheld , God ? no , son of God !
JESUS WAS MADE FLESH, JESUS BECAME FLESH!

WHEN JESUS BECAME FLESH, DID HE RETAIN PART OF HIS DIVINE NATURE , TALK LESS OF ALL OF HIS DIVINE NATURE?

phil 2:7
English Standard Version
color=red]BUT EMPTIED HIMSELF[/color]but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men

International Standard Version
Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, A MORTAL MAN BECOMING. In human form he chose to be,

Isa 53:2, 3He will come up like a twig before him, like a root out of parched land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him.3He was despised and was avoided by men, A man who was meant for pains and was familiar with sickness. It was as if his face were hidden from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account.


brocab, you know I like asking you questions, telling you to explain the scriptures to me and expecially to thousands of people reading this thread. so pls brocab can you explain this two scriptures?

King James Version
Da 7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Da 7:14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


who is the Lamb and who is the ancient of days?

*READERS SHOULD NOTE IF HE WILL EXPLAIN

BROCAB HAS ALSO FAI LED TO ATTEND TO THIS:

And yet no response from you on the issue you yourself raised?
also up till now , you have not answered these questions( more on these will be brought up later)

you have also refused to respond to these questions and scripture:
[b]Just tell us the name of the church you associate with, that you are a member of!. If possible you can include its official website, at least you surpport using technology in Gods work.
Tell us, do you know that Jesus Christ told someone that he has a God? And that statement was recorded in the kjv.? Can you tell us where this can be found?
If you can't answer this question brocab, then you dnt know the truth about Christ!.
Expecially. The one spoken by Jesus himself.
Examine this questions brocab 1. If you say one body, one spirit, was Jesus a spirit before he came to earth?
2. When Jesus was on earth, was the spirit in him his, the father or the holy spirit.?
3. After Jesus left the earth, did he remain in the body or became a spirit?
4. What does Jesus mean by " the father is greater than I am"
5. Why does Jesus say he is going to the father when you are trying to say he is spirit.
6. You asked a question, the answer is yes, but ill like to ask you, what about the soul, why did you remove the soul when fomulating your question.
You cannot answer if Jesus is the same person as the father.
brocab , readers will note(again) that you have NOT quoted and explained ANY of the following scriptures :
1.rev 1:1,6
2. Rev 3, 2,13
3. John 17:1-3
4. Heb 1:1 -9
5. John 20:17
6. 1 cor 11:3
7 . 1 ti 2 :5,6
8.Acts 4:10
9. Acts 2:36
10. Acts 2:24
11. Acts 5:30
12.Acts 10:38,40,43
11. Phil 2:9,11
12. john 14:6
13. Acts 4 : 26,27, 30
14. 1 john 4:14
15. Heb 5:7
16. ps 28:18
And a host of others
Brocab , examine these scripture
Acts 5: 31.
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
John 3:16.
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but
have everlasting life.
Jesus is Gods only begotten son, Jesus is not God almighty![/b]

Ubenedictus:
The above assertion is common among Nler, the less charitable versions says he "bleeped" her and claims this must be so because they were married?

But we must ask ourselves was Joseph not a jew? or was he stupid?

"
Mary was consecrated to God's service, because her
body was His Heaven for nine months. She was the new
Ark of the Covenant. The house where Jesus lived was
the true Temple where God was constantly present.
Anything that was connected with God's service that was
touched, would require the toucher to ritually cleanse
himself before going back to normal human society.
Touching the Ark of the Covenant was instant death,
even if you meant well.
So let's ask ourselves (or let's have Joseph ask himself,
since he was a righteous man) what a Jewish man who
observed the Law righteously would do if God entrusted
him with the care of the Ark of the Covenant, or even
with one of the gold and silver vessels used in Temple
sacrifice? Would he use the gold and silver vessels as
normal dinnerware? Would that be a smart thing to do?
Would he do it with God Himself living right there?
Joseph would also have been fully familiar with Ezekiel's
vision of the New Temple in the New Jerusalem, where
the Lord entered through a gate that would then be
forever closed to all but Him. He would have seen Mary
give birth without the pain of labor, and heard the angels
sing.
Joseph was in the position of having the Ark of the
Covenant, not to mention GOD HIMSELF, living in his
house. He wasn't going to screw around with Mary,
literally or figuratively. He would guard her and care for
her and be her friend and brother, and he would protect
her and take her into his home as a husband should. But
he sure wasn't going to try and find out the hard way
what kind of horrible fate was reserved for someone who
entered the closed gate, where only the Lord was
allowed to pass.
I would also urge people to consult the story of
Absalom, and ask themselves why it would be such a big
deal that Absalom slept with David's wives. Likewise, ask
yourselves why it was a big deal which prince remarried
David's last, unconsummated wife, the Shunamite
woman. Why? Because sleeping with a king's wife meant
stealing his sovereignty (or if the king was dead, it was
an attempt to make yourself seen as his legal heir).
Sleeping with the mother of one of his children was even
more insulting, of course, because it made the paternity
uncertain; but the Shunamite woman's story shows that
even sleeping with a virgin wife was really really not
taken well, unless you really were the lawful king. (And if
you were the lawful king, you should be getting your
own wife, not doing some weird pagan thing. Marry the
old king's daughter, not his wife, duh.)
So why would Joseph have wanted to have sex with a
woman who was essentially God's wife (and mom),
unless he had wanted to tell God, "I'm going to usurp
your power and sleep with your woman, as part of my
new House of David World Domination Plan"? Yeah, that
would go over really really well.
Joseph was a righteous man. He was not a stupid man"

the scriptures says jesus did not know Mary until she gave birth to jesus, after that , it would be expected of JosEph to fufill his husbandLy dues. He has the backing of gods law guiding marriage, of gods law guiding pro- creation, of the Mosaic Law and the teachings of the apostles, he had broken no law if he sleeps with HIS WIFE!

solite3:
hey hypocrite have you answered my questions? Here they are again
1. What do you mean by Jesus has same nature as God show me where you explained

I view this as another attempt to divert attention from the fact that you and brocab cannot answer some questions. You have totally ignored the fact that you lied against me when you claimed I made a statement relating to Jesus having one nature with God .
You have asked me to point to where I explained my words, I did so.
You say that's not enough that I should repost them, I did that
now you are still repeating that I should show you where I explained, all this while refusing to modify your deliberately muddled up reply to those posts where I explained what I said. you quoted and replied those quotes(albeit it was muddled up with you attributing fo your own post some of my own words).
If you decide to stay blind to the words I posted, there is nothing I can do about it, but it should not stop you from answering questions posted to you long before that.

2.Do you agree that the father called Jesus God?

do you know when you asked me this question, it was because I asked you a question that you can't answer , hence like a dubious person you decided to answer back with a question.

READERS CAN FIND THIS CONVERSION IN HIS POST MADE ON MAY 19 ,9:54PM.

I ASKED SOLITE3 THIS QUESTIONS

JESUS HAS A GOD ? YES OR NO
JESUS IS SUBJECTED TO THAT GOD ? YES OR NO
IF JESUS HAVE A GOD, HOW CAN HE THEN BE GOD ALMIGHTY!

he could not answer the question above but felt it's cool to answer a question with a question.
that was why I replied him with this :

"only dubious people answer question with a question, hope you are not dubious . If you are not, then pls answer the question, then you can ask yours!"

HE CALLED ME A HYPOCRITE, YET FOR WEEKS HE COULD NOT ANSWER THE QUESTIONS BELOW
your questions are still pending
Jesus has a God, yes or no,?
Jesus is subjected to that God , yes or no
if Jesus has a God, how can He then be almighty God ?


2. on April 27 jEphz
"for those saying Jesus is God.. pls. explain these Scripture for me ... Ephesians 5:1,2 1timothy 2:5 John 8:42 Act 2:22 Hebrews 12:2...... "

3. April 29
" the God of our Lord Jesus Christ " Eph 1:17, who is the God of Jesus Christ ?

4. "You say Jesus is still a man in heaven, you also say Jesus has a God when he was a man.
NOW DOES Jesus STILL HAVE A GOD IN HEAVEN?"

who anointed Jesus? who is that person to Jesus?
you can see that the questions are numbered, so dnt muddle it up , or give part response

solite3:
first of all I am not sure you understood what the post was all about.

I do understand what the post was about, it's from a Web page that tried to give surr port to the Textus Receptus by undermining older manuscripts and texts.
It feels that the best way to defend it's own established flaws is to attack the perceived flaws of the manuscripts it deferred from.

Let me give you a brief explanation while you go back and read.
The book of revelation is the most difficult text to translate. Why?
I. There are only few manuscript available

fortunately we are discussing about rev 1:11 and the addition of " Alpha and omega" and not about the book of revelation.
so far, you have just tried to discredit older manuscripts , but you have failed to show how the Textus Receptus came about the word "Alpha and omega" found in rev 1:11
even in your attempt to discredit those manuscripts, you could not discredit there record of rev 1:11. You believe that making a general reference to perceived flaws in them will affect the credibility of that verse, but I can bet you will balk at it if the same method you are trying to use is used for the Textus Receptus.
let's even use it:
it is generally believed that the Textus Receptus contained a lot of flaws, flaws that it's author even acknowledged. This proves that the textus Receptus is flawed when it added "Alpha and omega to revelation 1:11!

ii. Most of these manuscript are incomplete

Does the few that have rev 1:11 in them include the words "Alpha and omega", if so, which one!?

iii. the late canonisation of revelation may be due to it's early corruption

I thought you have done the research , why are you still dealing in assumptions and allegations?
is the late canonisation of the book of Revelation caused by its early corruption? answer and add proof.
is rev 1:11 currupted in the earliest manuscripts?

iv. The church fathers may have possess the authentic one which was also used by the textus receptus

another explanation based on assumptions .
The earlier manuscripts that had rev 1:11, are hundreds of years older than the one in the hands of the church fathers, who had already decided that trinity is part of their doctrines.
do you realise that one of the proven allegations about Erasmus texts is the inclusion of words which are not part of the original texts, which are written in margins by the copyist into the original texts to make it look as if the original writer put it THERE?

moreover, you have failed to tell us this manuscript that is in possession of these church fathers, that the Textus Receptus copied rev 1:11 from!

v.the so called early manuscripts have been proven to have variants.

good, give us one example of the variants of rev 1:11 since you have proven to have variants.

vi. Modern translations just follow this so called early manuscript only because they are "early" not mining if it was inspired or not
vii. There is high probability that these early manuscripts were not genuine but these modern translations rush to use them because they want to be different from the KJV and because they want to make money

you and allegations sha!
pls let's deal with facts naw!, how can you now be saying you have facts when all you do is talk about allegations!

Let me stop here
KJV still remains the best translation quote me any where
As for your allegations, they are just allegations
I m not saying kjv is 100% perfect but 98% sure

pls dnt stop, pls tell us how the Textus Receptus come about the words it added to rev 1:11, ""Alpha and omega". where did it get it from?

READERS PLS NOTE THAT HE COULD NOT GIVE A REPLY TO THE QUESTIONS OR EXPLAIN THE SCRIPTURES SHOWN TO HIM, HENCE HE IS NOW TRYING TO CHANGE THE ISSUE FROM IF JESUS IS FULLY GOD TO MY BEING BORN AGAIN

brocab:
Jesus said one must be born again before He could enter into Heaven; that leaves you out dolpohinheart, you are born into the JW's organization, that has nothing to do with Christ.

are we talking about being born again? no
we are talking about Jesus being fully God .


BELOW IS MY RESPONSE TO YOUR POST, PLS RESPOND!

brocab:
Now I am not expecting you to read or understand this page-but their are to types of Christians in this world No 1-Christians believe, No 2-Christians that don't believe.
The word of God is the truth, no man will deny the truth.
Jesus is the most important person who has ever lived since He is our saviour. God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man, In other words Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the word who was God, and was with God, and was made flesh {John 1:1,14} This means in a single person of Jesus He has both the human and divine nature, God and man. The divine nature was not changed when the word became flesh {John 1:1, 14} Instead the word was joined with humanity {Colossians 2:9} Jesus' divine nature was not altered. Also, Jesus is not merely a man, who had God within Him, nor is He a man who "manifested the God principle. "He is God in flesh. Second person of the trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory, and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word {Hebrews 1:3} Jesus's two natures are not mixed together. Look up the word {Eutychianism} nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. look up {Monophysitism} They are separated yet act as a unit in the One person of Jesus. this is called the {Hypostatic Union}

WHAT DID JESUS OUR SAVIOR SAY ABOUT GAINING EVALASTING LIFE?
King James Version
Joh 17:1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joun 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

SOME CLAIM JESUS IS FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN BUT CAN NOT EXPLAIN HOW JESUS BEING FULLY GOD WAS :
1. Giving authority by someone else
King James Version
[b]Joh 5:26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
imagine, claiming someone is fully God yet he being given authority by someone else!

2. giving power by someone else
King James Version
Joh 3:35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

English Standard Version
On one of those days, as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting there, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was with him to heal.

Guys, check out the only true god!
Jer 27:4Give them this command for their masters: “‘“This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, says; this is what you should say to your masters,
Jer 27:5‘It is I who made the earth, mankind, and the beasts that are on the surface of the earth by my great power and by my outstretched arm; and I have given it to whomever I please.
can you guys see the difference!, yet they claim jesus is fully God.


3. Is not able to take any initiative by himself except what he sees another doing.

King James Version
Joh 5:19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
imagine fully God can do nothing of himself.

4. will be shown greater works
King James Version
Joh 5:20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

5. calls someone else his God.
[b]King James Version
Joh 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


6.cannot give certain things
King James Version
Mt 20:23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

7. does not know certain things
matt 24:36 English Standard Version
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

8. fully God and yet said this.
King James Version
Mt 27:46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


SOME PREFER TO USE UNSCRIPTURAL WORDS AND TERMS TO DESCRIBE JESUS, BUT WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES SAY WHEN JESUS CAME TO EARTH.

john 1:14
English Standard Version
And the Word BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the ONLY SON FROM THE FATHER, full of grace and truth.

King James Bible
And the Word was MADE FLESH , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

did that verse say Jesus added flesh to his divine nature? no
did it say Jesus had two natures? no
what glory did it say we beheld , God ? no , son of God !
JESUS WAS MADE FLESH, JESUS BECAME FLESH!

WHEN JESUS BECAME FLESH, DID HE RETAIN PART OF HIS DIVINE NATURE , TALK LESS OF ALL OF HIS DIVINE NATURE?

phil 2:7
English Standard Version
color=red]BUT EMPTIED HIMSELF[/color]but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men

International Standard Version
Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, A MORTAL MAN BECOMING. In human form he chose to be,

Isa 53:2, 3He will come up like a twig before him, like a root out of parched land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him.3He was despised and was avoided by men, A man who was meant for pains and was familiar with sickness. It was as if his face were hidden from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account.


brocab, you know I like asking you questions, telling you to explain the scriptures to me and expecially to thousands of people reading this thread. so pls brocab can you explain this two scriptures?

King James Version
Da 7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Da 7:14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


who is the Lamb and who is the ancient of days?

*READERS SHOULD NOTE IF HE WILL EXPLAIN

brocab:
You did demand to find out where I fellowship so who's changing the issue

your statements surpports the fact that the issues I included in my post are not new, but are issues you failed to give an answer to.
did I fail to include present issues at hand? no
did I omit the present issue at hand to make it look like I'm changing the topic? no
Did you respond to them both the one before and the one now? no
therefore brocab, here they are again for you to respond to

issues at hand:
[b]And yet no response from you on the issue you yourself raised?
also up till now , you have not answered these questions

you have also refused to respond to these questions and scripture:

[b]Just tell us the name of the church you associate with, that you are a member of!. If possible you can include its official website, at least you surpport using technology in Gods work. 

Tell us, do you know that Jesus Christ told someone that he has a God? And that statement was recorded in the kjv.? Can you tell us where this can be found?
If you can't answer this question brocab, then you dnt know the truth about Christ!. 
Expecially. The one spoken by Jesus himself.

Examine this questions brocab 1. If you say one body, one spirit, was Jesus a spirit before he came to earth? 
2. When Jesus was on earth, was the spirit in him his, the father or the holy spirit.?
3. After Jesus left the earth, did he remain in the body or became a spirit? 
4. What does Jesus mean by " the father is greater than I am" 
5. Why does Jesus say he is going to the father when you are trying to say he is spirit. 
6. You asked a question, the answer is yes, but ill like to ask you, what about the soul, why did you remove the soul when fomulating your question.

You cannot answer if Jesus is the same person as the father.

brocab , readers will note(again) that you have NOT quoted and explained ANY of the following scriptures :

1.rev 1:1,6
2. Rev 3, 2,13
3. John 17:1-3
4. Heb 1:1 -9 
5. John 20:17
6. 1 cor 11:3 
7 . 1 ti 2 :5,6
8.Acts 4:10
9. Acts 2:36
10. Acts 2:24
11. Acts 5:30
12.Acts 10:38,40,43
11. Phil 2:9,11 
12. john 14:6 
13. Acts 4 : 26,27, 30
14. 1 john 4:14
15. Heb 5:7 
16. ps 28:18

And a host of others

Brocab , examine these scripture 
Acts 5: 31.
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
John 3:16.
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but
have everlasting life.

Jesus is Gods only begotten son, Jesus is not God almighty!


YOU HAVE AGAIN ADDED LIES TO YOUR VIEWS.
Lets see if jesus was recognizable to those who knew him:

King James Version
Joh 20:14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS JESUS!

King James Version
Joh 20:15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? SHE SUPPOSING HIM TO BE THE GARGENER, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

I dnt think the disciples would have been able to recognize Jesus more than Mary, she probably would have known jesus from birth, and the picture of jesus in her memory would have been sharper than a 100 mega pixel camera!

but here you are , lying again that Jesus was recognizable to those who knew him!
dnt you think Mary should have been able to recognise jesus instantly if he had been raise in the same body he died in?
* this is a question ill hope you can give us answer to .

Do you notice how jesus appeared to his disciples who had locked the doors, his actions transcends the physical realm, he appeared to them gram!, in a locked rooM!. yet until he showed them death dealing wound marks, that was when they believed they where swing the Lord.

brocab pls tell us
1. DOES SOME ONE FACE CHANGE WHEN HE OR SHE IS RESSURRECTED WITH THE SAME BODY HE OR SHE DIED IN?

2.DOES SOME ONE GETS RESSURRECTED WITH THE WOUND'S OR INJURIES THAT KILLED HIM?
If your assumptions are true, I bet during the ressurection, we will know those whose throut where slit, cus there will still be a gapping hole in there necks. and those whose brains where blown out will have a hole in their head, cus they will be resurrected with that same body!

before, I digress, let's further examine ya lie.
King James Version
Joh 21:4But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: BUT THE DISCIPLES KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS JESUS.

john 21: 12 New International Version
Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.
even after seing jesus after his resurrecting, after being with jesus for years, they still do not recognize Jesus at first glance. If jesus had been resurrected with the same body he had died in, the disciples will have no doubt, they wunt need to even bother to ask the question that dared not to ask, "who are you".
Jesus had just showed them who he is, it is left for us to understand that they still had issues with jesus physical features, despite knowing that the person inviting theM to a meal is actually jesus.

I for one believe that only spirits do appear and dissappear at will!

spirits can manifest physical bodies of any liking for any particular purpose, the scriptures is awash with such occurrences, they can even use it to have sex sef!


sir do you ever read the scriptures at all.
It says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God!
human body is flesh and blood!
how then do you espect the king of gods kingdom to have flesh and blood while his Co rulers do not!
how do you expect the physical to rule in the spiritual realm.

brocab, Jesus was a spirit before he came to earth, was he not?
how come , you refuse him his spirit nature when he had accomplished the work he was sent to do here on earth?

johnw74:
third time you replied with the same thing

hey I already know you have nothing true to say

yes , because Im happy that you know that anytime they quote the scriptures for you, you remember that you dnt discuss with them. and these is a true statement!

solite3:
[url]www.kjvtoday.com/home/revelation[/Book of Revelation in the.....

Minority Readings in the Book of Revelation

(1)The Textus Receptus departs from both the Nestle-Aland Text and the Byzantine Majority Text considerably in the Book of Revelation. In these instances the Textus Receptus often follows Erasmus' Reuchlin manuscript (2814). At times Erasmus departed from 2814 and followed the Vulgate (vg), other Andreas texts (MA), Church fathers and/or other authorities. The following are examples of the more notable divergent readings with their earliest authorities:
Revelation 1:6: "kings and" (2814, 025, 2015, 2019, 2036)
Revelation 1:8: "the beginning and the ending" (2814, Aleph*, 1854, 2050, 2329, 2351, vg)
(2)Revelation 1:11: "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and" (2814, 314, 2019, 2020, 2023)
Revelation 2:17: "to eat of" (2814, 025, 69, 104, 1611, 1854, 1957, 2015, 2023, 2036, 2050, 2344, 2351, Beatus)
Revelation 2:22: "their deeds" (2814, A, 1854, 2329, 2344, vgcl, Cyprian, Primasius)
Revelation 2:24: "will" (2814, Aleph, 046, 1611, 2050, 2329, 2351, vg, Tyconius, Primasius)
Revelation 3:11: "Behold" (2015, 2019, 2036, vgcl, Bede)
Revelation 5:5: "to loose" (Aleph, 2344, vgcl, Haymo)
Revelation 5:6: "and lo" (A, 2018, 172, vg)
Revelation 5:14: "four and twenty . . . him that lives forever and ever" (vgcl, Primasius, Haymo)
Revelation 6:1: TR omits "seven" (2814, 314, 2015, 2016, 2036)
Revelation 6:3: "and see" (vgcl, Primasius, Beatus) ["και ιδε" (Aleph, 2344)]
Revelation 6:12: TR omits "whole" before "moon" (025, 2814, 2018, 2023, 172, 1957, 1611, 2329, 2344, Primasius)
Revelation 8:7: TR omits "and the third part of the earth was burnt up" (2814, 2018, 1854)
Revelation 8:13: "angel" (2814, 025, 104, 2015, 2019, 241, 2036, Victorinus)
Revelation 11:1: "and the angel stood" (60, 61, 69, 172, 424, 432, 1957, 2018, 2019, 2023) [with varying word order] (Aleph2, 046, 1854, 2329, 2351, Tyconius, Beatus)
Revelation 11:17: "and art to come" ( 1841, 051, 1006)
Revelation 14:1: TR omits "his name and" (2814, 025)
Revelation 14:5: "before the throne of God" (vgcl)
Revelation 15:2: "over his mark" (051, 2814, 2018, 2019, 2036)
Revelation 15:3: "saints" (Victorinus-Pettau, Tyconius, Apringius, and Cassiodorus)
Revelation 16:5: "and shalt be" instead of "thou Holy One" (Beza)
Revelation 16:7: "another out of" (vgcl)
Revelation 16:14: "of the earth and" (2814)
Revelation 17:4: "filthiness of her fornication" [vg: "inmunditia fornicationis"]
Revelation 17:8: "and yet is" instead of "and shall come" (Erasmus)
Revelation 18:20: "holy" (adjective) instead of "saints" (noun) (2018, C, 051, 2329, 2059, 2081, vgcl, Haymo)
Revelation 19:17: "great God" instead of "great supper" (2814, 051, 2019, 2023, 2036)
Revelation 20:12: "God" instead of "throne" (2814, 2059, 2081, 2186, 296)
Revelation 21:3: "and be their God" (025, 2036) [with varying word order] (A, 2030, 2050, 2053, 2062, 2329, vg)
Revelation 21:10: "that great city" instead of "the holy city Jerusalem" (2814, 2016, 2017, 2023, 2036, 1957, [*]: 051, 1854, 2030, 2377)
Revelation 21:24: "of them which are saved" (254, 2186, 2814, MA commentary)
Revelation 22:19: "book of life" (vg, 1075, 1957, Abrose, Primasius, Haymo)
Revelation 22:21: "be with you all" (vg, Pseudo-Ambrose)
(3)There are several categories of these instances when the Textus Receptus departs from the Nestle-Aland and Byzantine Majority texts. They are:
Readings based on late minority Byzantine readings.
Readings based on the Vulgate.
Readings that are supported by early uncials.
Readings based on Church fathers.
Readings based on Erasmus' supposed errors.
Beza's conjectural emendation.
The remainder of this article makes a case for the Textus Receptus despite these supposed flaws.

1. Late Minority Byzantine Readings

There Are Relatively Few Early Manuscripts for Revelation

Before brushing aside those so-called "late minority" readings, one must realize that Revelation is unlike the rest of the books of the Bible. There are only 287 extant Greek manuscripts of Revelation in comparison with 2361 of the Gospels, 662 of Acts and General Epistles, and 792 of Paul's letters (Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, The Text of the New Testament (Eerdmans, 1987), pp. 78-79, 83.). Of these, only the following 16 are from before the 10th century:

Name Century Verses included
P18 III/IV 1:4-7
P24 IV 5:5-8; 6:5-8
P43 VI/VII 2:12-13; 15:8-16:2
P47 III 9:10-11:3; 11:5-16:15; 16:17-17:2
P85 IV/V 9:19-10:1.5-9
P98 II(?) 1:13-20
P115 III/IV 2:1-3, 13-15, 27-29; 3:10-12; 5:8-9; 6:4-6; 8:3-8, 11-13; 9:1-5, 7-16, 18-21; 10:1-4, 8; 11:5, 8-15, 18-19; 12:1-6, 9-10, 12-17; 13:1-3, 6-12, 13-16, 17-18; 14:1-3, 5-7, 10-11, 14-16, 18-20; 15:1, 5-7.
Aleph IV All
A V All
C V All except 1:1-2; 3:20-5:14; 7:14-17; 8:5-:16; 10:10-11:3; 16:13-18:2; 19:5-22:21
025 IX All except 16:12-17:1; 19:21-20:9; 22:6-22:21
0163 V 16:17-20
0169 IV 3:19-4:3
0207 IV 9:2-15
0229 VIII 18:16-17; 19:4-6
0308 IV 11:15-16; 17-18

Most of these 16 early manuscripts ("early", being used generously here) do not even have the complete text of Revelation. Thus for any given passage there may only be about 4 or 5 manuscripts from before the 10th century. Revelation is an extremely difficult text to reconstruct if we were to use only the evidence that remains today. With only 4 or 5 early manuscripts for a given passage, it is difficult to ascertain whether these mere few provide the most reliable form of any given passage. No modern statistical study would be based on a sample size as small as 4 or 5. The minority Byzantine text-type termed the Andreas text-type, which agrees with Erasmus' Reuchlin manuscript, ought to be given fair weight in these circumstances. The assumption that late manuscripts contain late readings is refuted in the following page: Aren't older manuscripts more reliable? The Reuchlin manuscript which dates to the 12th century is not that late in comparison with the majority of manuscripts of Revelation. Moreover, there is reason to believe that the majority of manuscripts of Revelation may be corrupt due to the unique canonical and textual history of Revelation. The following section which justifies the use of the Vulgate for Revelation also applies to the use of minority Greek readings.

2. Readings Based on the Vulgate

Most Versions Often Follow Translations Over The Inspired Texts

The Textus Receptus is often criticized for having some readings based on the Vulgate rather than on Greek manuscripts. God inspired the words in Greek, so in Greek should God preserve his words - so the thinking goes. Other translations such as the NASB, ESV and NIV, however, often depart from Hebrew readings for the Old Testament in preference for readings found in Greek or Latin translations of the Old Testament. Critics often bash the Textus Receptus for following the Vulgate, yet these critics are often found promoting translations such as the NASB, ESV and NIV which follow the same Vulgate for some passages in the Old Testament. This double-standard is even more illogical when we consider that the preservation methods for the Old Testament were arguably more robust than the preservation methods for the New Testament. This hypocrisy with respect to the use of translations in textual criticism is addressed at the page: Aren't some Textus Receptus readings based on weak Greek manuscript evidence? The page lists the Old Testament passages where the NASB, ESV and NIV choose translation readings over Hebrew readings.

The Book of Revelation Was Thoroughly Corrupted Very Early

Within respect to the Book of Revelation, Vulgate readings should be considered on par with Greek readings in terms of reliability because there is no indication that Greek manuscripts were copied and preserved any better. Despite there only being 287 extant manuscripts of Revelation (compared with 2361 for the Gospels), the number of variants among Greek manuscripts is relatively large. Various factors contributed to this early and extensive corruption. Revelation received limited circulation in the early centuries because it was canonized very late among the Greek churches that produced the majority of both the earliest and later manuscripts of Revelation. The Syrian Church rejected Revelation in the 2nd century, the Alexandrian scribe of Codex Vaticanus omitted Revelation, and the Greek Church canonized Revelation as late as in 397 AD at the Council of Carthage. Perhaps because of its non-canonical status, the Greek text became corrupt in many copies in very early times. Daniel B. Wallace says, "Revelation was copied less often than any other book of the NT, and yet Irenaeus admits that it was already corrupted—within just a few decades of the writing of the Apocalypse" (Online article: Did the Original New Testament Manuscripts still exist in the Second Century?). The limited circulation coupled with the great extent of corruptions gave the book of Revelation the highest variant to manuscript ratio of all the books of the Bible.

Professor Bruce Terry at the Ohio Valley University has prepared a helpful reference of many of the major textual variants in the books of the New Testament. He identifies variants in the following Revelation verses on his web pages, Revelation 1:5-14:3 [LINK], and Revelation 14:13-22:21 [LINK]. His list of variants show the extent to which the Book of Revelation was corrupted at an early stage.

There are in fact reasons to believe that Latin witnesses of Revelation could be more accurate than Greek witnesses. The book of Revelation was canonized first by the Latin Church whereas the Greek Church took until 397 AD at the Council of Carthage. While influential Greek fathers in the 4th century such as Chrysostom and Gregory of Nazianzus were still hesitant to canonize Revelation, Christians ministering in the Latin West in the 2nd century - Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian - recognized its canonicity early on. The Muratorian Canon, the oldest known canon that includes Revelation, is a Latin canon. Codex Vaticanus, a Greek codex, does not even have Revelation. Latin commentaries on Revelation by Victorinus and Tyconius existed by the fourth century, but the earliest known Greek commentary on Revelation is by Andreas of Caesarea in the seventh century. There is indeed an illogical prejudice against translations. Translations did not appear out of thin air. They were based on Greek exemplars at one point in time. Once a Latin translation made from the Greek got in the hands of faithful Latin Christians such as Victorinus or Tyconius, these faithful Christians would have been no more or no less tempted to alter God's word than those true Christians preserving God's word in Greek.

3. Readings That Are Supported By Early Uncials

Just because the Textus Receptus disagrees with the Nestle-Aland and Majority texts, it does not always mean the Textus Receptus reading is late. The following notable readings depart from the Nestle-Aland and Majority texts but are nonetheless supported by earlier uncials:
Revelation 1:6: "kings and" (025 - 9th century)
Revelation 1:8: "the beginning and the ending" (Aleph* - 4th century)
Revelation 2:17: "to eat of" (025 - 9th century)
Revelation 2:22: "their deeds" (A - 5th century)
Revelation 2:24: "will" (Aleph - 4th century)
Revelation 5:5: "to loose" (Aleph - 4th century)
Revelation 5:6: "and lo" (A - 5th century)
Revelation 6:3: "and see" ["και ιδε"] (Aleph - 4th century)
Revelation 6:12: TR omits "whole" before "moon" (025 - 9th century)
Revelation 8:13: "angel" (025 - 9th century)
Revelation 11:1: "and the angel stood" [with varying word order] (Aleph2 - 7th century)
Revelation 14:1: omission of "his name and" (025 - 9th century)
Revelation 18:20: "holy" (adjective) instead of "saints" (noun) (C - 5th century)
Revelation 21:3: "and be their God" (025 - 9th century) [with varying word order] (A - 5th century)[/color]
This shows not only that these particular readings are earlier than the Greek and Vulgate manuscripts used by Erasmus, but they also support the theory that Erasmus' manuscripts were capable of carrying over early readings that were lost in the majority of later Greek manuscripts. If even just one manuscript, e.g. Codex A, were to have disappeared, textual critics today would be dismissing the Textus Receptus readings of Revelation 2:22, 5:6, and 21:3 as suspicious late readings. One could reasonably theorize that there were once many more such early uncials which agreed with the Textus Receptus.

4. Readings Based on Church Fathers

Revelation 15:3 is a place where Erasmus is believed to have followed Church fathers over any extant Greek or Latin manuscript. The commentaries of Church fathers such as Andreas, Tyconius, Victorinus, Primasius, Apringius and Beatus follow the early Greek uncials in many places. Hence it is evident that these fathers had before them actual copies of the Book of Revelation. In the few instances where their readings depart from those in extant Greek or Latin manuscripts, we can reasonably accept that such readings of the fathers were available in whatever texts that existed in their times. As the quotes by many of these fathers are from their commentaries on the Book of Revelation, we can be even more certain that they were careful to cite the text accurately from their copies of the Book. Sometimes Church fathers may have paraphrased scriptures freely in discourses or epistles, but that is not the case with these commentators who set out to provide careful analyses of the text. The following links to a page on this website which explains Erasmus' decision to follow the Church fathers at Revelation 15:3:

"Saints" or ""Nations" or "Ages" in Revelation 15:3?

5. Readings Based on Erasmus' Supposed Errors

There are a few places in Revelation where Erasmus is alleged to have created his own unique readings due to mistranscription (e.g. "ο και αδελφος" at Revelation 1:9 and "καιπερ εστιν" at Revelation 17:. The most well-known instance of Erasmus' alleged error is where he back-translated the Vulgate for the last 6 verses of Revelation. The following are links to pages on this website which explain these more notable instances of Erasmus' alleged errors:

"Also (και)" in Revelation 1:9?

“And yet is” or “And shall come” in Revelation 17:8?

“Book of life” or “Tree of life” in Revelation 22:19?

6. Beza's Conjectural Emendation

There is a reading in the Textus Receptus edition underlying the KJV that is based on a conjectural emendation. This is Revelation 16:5 where it says, "which art, and wast, and shalt be". The following link goes to a page on this website which justifies Beza's conjectural emendation:

“Shalt be” or “Holy one” in Revelation 16:5?

sir , I do not think you understood the Web page you quoted, it is not defending the inclusion of "Alpha and omega" in rev 1:11, but it's defending the Textus Receptus in general as a text to be considered during translations. The defense only claimed that other manuscripts and texts where flawed , bu that does not clear it of its own flaws.
look at what your post said after truing to identify the differences

The remainder of this article makes a case for the Textus Receptus despite these supposed flaws.

you can see that I coloured some part of your post, this is done for easy Identification

(1){coloured blue}
your quotes say that the Textus Receptus departed from other sources of the Greek New Testament, and in this case from earlier manuscripts that had the book of revelevation in them.
your quote says "The following are examples of the more notable divergent readings with their earliest authorities:"
It listed rev 1:11(number (2){coloured red}) as one one them, this shows that the verse in the Textus Receptus and in the kjv does not come from the Earlier manuscripts.
THE BIG QUESTIONS TO YOU SOLITE3 IS: where did the Textus Receptus get "Alpha and omega it included in rev 1:11 from if it can't be found in the earlier manuscripts that had rev 1:11 in them?

(3){coloured green}
your quotes states that there are several categories of these instances when the Textus Receptus departs from the Nestle-Aland and Byzantine Majority texts, and it categorised these instances.
pls solite3 , which of this categories does this departure from other manuscripts by the Textus Receptus on rev 1:11 fall into?
pls show us you have done some research and not just posting a Web page you think surpports your cause. tell us which of these categories the Textus Receptus used as a reason for departing.

NONE OF THE DEFENSE OF THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS POSTULATED BY THE AUTHOR TOUCHES OR MENTIONS THE REASONS WHY " ALPHA AND OMEGA IS ADDED OR FOUND IN THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS.

NO WONDER MOST SCHOLARS SAY THE WORDS FOUND IN THAT VERSE BY THE KJV IS SPURIOS!

excerpts from this website: www.solagroup.org/articles/faqs/faq_0032.html

Erasmus himself had to admit that the work was "precipitously edited." Another person has called it the most faulty book ever published due to the proofing errors.

Despite its errors, the book became a best seller and the first printing was soon exhausted. In the second edition, which was published in 1519, Erasmus attempted to correct many of the printing errors but, unfortunately, there were nearly as many as the first edition.........

Erasmus published two other editions, in 1527 and 1535. Stung by criticism that his work contained numerous textual errors, he incorporated readings from the Greek New Testament published in Spain in later editions of his work..........

The Textus Receptus became the dominant Greek text of the New Testament for the following two hundred and fifty years. It was not until the publication of the Westcott and Hort Greek New Testament in 1881 that the Textus Receptus lost its position.
We do not have space to trace the entire history of the Textus Receptus. It received criticism from the time of its first printing. With the discovery of older manuscripts, considered superior to the manuscripts of the Textus Receptus, the Textus Receptus no longer holds the first place in the estimation of most Greek scholars.

Regardless of the position one holds regarding its relative value, the following points are worthy of consideration.
First, the differences between the two text traditions do not affect a major doctrine of the New Testament. One of the characteristics of the Textus Receptus is that it tended to add words that many people considered to be notes or glosses made by scribes. Over a period of time, these glosses became part of the text. Later editions of the Greek New Testament, including the Westcott and Hort Greek New Testament, have shown that many of these were not part of the original text...........

Note: sorry I had to cut part of your post off. But if there are issues with it, one can easily make reference to your original post.

Scholar8200:
Question: Is it true that 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the King James Bible?

Authors David W. Daniels and Jack McElroy answer questions critics ask about the King James Bible.
Answer: 1 John 5:7 belongs in the King James Bible and was preserved by faithful Christians. But the passage was removed from many Greek manuscripts, because of the problems it seemed to cause.

It is true that there is a small number of Scriptures that are not the same between the King James Bible and the so-called "Majority" Greek text. There are a number of reasons for this:

The so-called "Majority" text was not really based on the majority of texts, but rather a relatively small number of manuscripts. The last person to try to find the differences between the majority of Greek manuscripts, Dr. Von Soden, did not collate more than 400 of the more than 5,000 Greek texts. In other words, what is commonly called the "Majority" Greek text is not a collation of the majority of manuscripts at all.
The "Majority" Greek text is also the main Greek text used by the Eastern Orthodox religion. They had a vested interest in changing (or deleting) some texts. More on this in a moment.
1 John itself is not in a large number of extant Greek manuscripts.
So why then is 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible, but not in many of the existing Greek manuscripts? To understand the answer, we must look at the history of what happened shortly after the Bible was written.

The Greek and Roman Institutions

During the early growth of the Christian church, ministers (whether saved or not) wrote down doctrines that they said were Christian and Biblical. Starting after the death of the apostles (about 100 AD) many people taught the lie that Jesus was not God the Son and Son of God, or that Jesus became God at His baptism, or the false doctrine that the Holy Spirit was not God or was not eternal.

The growing religion that became known as Roman Catholic, after many debates eventually agreed on the doctrine of the Trinity. So they had no reason to remove 1 John 5:7 from their Bibles, since it supported what they taught.

But the Greek Eastern Orthodox religion was combating a heresy called "Sabellianism," and would have found it easier to combat the heresy by simply removing the troubling passage from their Bibles.

A Trail of Evidence

[b]But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse:

200 AD Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.
The Vaudois
[/b]
Now the "Waldensian," or "Vaudois" Bibles stretch from about 157 to the 1400s AD. The fact is, according to John Calvin's successor Theodore Beza, that the Vaudois received the Scriptures from missionaries of Antioch of Syria in the 120s AD and finished translating it into their Latin language by 157 AD. This Bible was passed down from generation, until the Reformation of the 1500s, when the Protestants translated the Vaudois Bible into French, Italian, etc. This Bible carries heavy weight when finding out what God really said. John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards believed, as most of the Reformers, that the Vaudois were the descendants of the true Christians, and that they preserved the Christian faith for the Bible-believing Christians today.

Who Has the Most to Gain? Who Has the Most to Lose?

The evidence of history shows us that the Roman Catholic religion was relentless in its effort to destroy the Vaudois and their Bible. It took them until the 1650s to finish their hateful attacks. But the Vaudois were successful in preserving God's words to the days of the Reformation.

Now we have to ask ourselves a question: Who had the most to gain by adding to or taking away from the Bible? Did the Vaudois, who were being killed for having their Bibles, have anything to gain by adding to or taking from the words of God? Compromise is what the Roman religion wanted! Had the Vaudois just followed the popes, their lives would have been much easier. But they counted the cost. This was not politics; it was their life and soul. They above all people would not want to change a single letter of the words they received from Antioch of Syria. And they paid for this with their lives.

What about the "scholars" at Alexandria, Egypt? We already know about them. They could not even make their few 45 manuscripts agree. How could we believe they preserved God's words?

The Reformation itself owes a lot to these Christians in the French Alps. They not only preserved the Scriptures, but they show to what lengths God would go to keep his promise (Psalm 12:6-7).

And that's only part of the story about the preservation of God's words.


http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp

the question you asked at the begginING of your writeup(coloured green for easy identification), I can't find the answer in the write up o. pls point it out if it's there.

is the translations of 1 john 5:7 as rendered by the kjv in any Greek manuscript before the 1600's?

personally I'm of the view that if someone is to claim something was somewhere before, and was later removed, that person must prove it was there before, otherwise those that claim it was not there are right to say it was not there before!

correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no proof from your post that it was there before it was removed. you only gave the reasons why you think it was removed , but no actual prove that it was removed.

also from the evidence you provided about those church father, are you saying they quoted 1 john 5:7? or are you saying there words can now be found later in some manuscripts?

solite3:
dolphins heart d runaway!

For your information,The authorise version is regarded as the most trusted version.

BY WHOM? add this proof.
does this mean that it did not translate from currupted texts ?

Also, most of the older manuscripts have been lost and considering the amount of manuscript available today can we Judge the authorise version?

but their copies are still with us, and the oldest and most reliable of thsee do not have the words " Alpha and omega and" in rev 1:11

yes, we can use it to judge the authorised Version, I just said that a sentence found in this translation is not found in any of the oldest manuscripts.

I think you should do a little research in that aspect and stop making dumb claims you don't know about, there are evidences that shows those so-called older versions available today might have been corrupted.

haha! you that have done research, you can only defend your translation through allegation, with no fact included.
www.kjvonly.org/james/may_great_inconsistency.htm

part of my research done so far :

The errors in both Rev. 1:11 and Rev 22:13 are due to the inaccuracy of the so-called Textus Receptus , the Greek text upon which the KJV 's New Testament was based.
(According to Bruce Metzger (in The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, Second Edition , Oxford University Press, 1968), the Textus Receptus was hastily and haphazardly prepared and was based mostly upon unreliable 12th century manuscripts. It was the work of a Dutchman by the name of Desiderius Erasmus and was first published in 1516. Though what became known as the Textus Receptus was inferior in accuracy to the very first complete Greek New Testament, the so-called Complutensian New Testament that was published only two years earlier in 1514, Erasmus' text was marketed much more effectively and was used as the basis for all the principal Protestant translations in the languages of Europe until 1881, when the English Revised Version [RV ] was first published. For a complete explanation of the basis for the errors in the King James Version and its impact on biblical studies, browse
http://www.bibletexts.com/kjv-tr.htm .)
www.bibletexts.com/versecom/rev01v11.htm

[b]There are only three places in the entire Bible where the title "Alpha and Omega" is used: Rev. 1:8 ; Rev. 21:6 ;Rev. 22:13. "Alpha and Omega" as found at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most modern Bible scholars:
"Virtually all modern translations do not include in Rev 1:11 the following words that are in the KJV version of that verse:
"Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:and,
"This wording at the beginning of the KJV's version of Rev. 1:11 is not found in virtually any ancient texts, nor is it mentioned, even as a footnote, in any modern translation or in Bruce Metzger's definitive A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition, New York: United Bible Societies, 1994"

----------------------------------------


"There are only three pre-ninth century Greek MSS which attest to this passage [Rev.1:11], and all three of them omit the phrase "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last."


----------------------------------------

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
Revelation 1:11. I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last; and-- The oldest manuscripts, omit all this clause. -[/b]

to be continued....

johnw74:
yes, you are right I quote false jw and show them where they are wrong and lying
and yes, I don't discuss with them, ....you've got it

Oh boy, you slow but you finally got it

good to note that you have agreed that anytime they quote the scriptures for you, you remember that you dnt discuss with them!

brocab:
Since you have all the answers I am sure you could answer then all?
I hang with the devil and we both fellowship at the Jehovah witnesses Church on the corner of evil street and death comes your way street, that crosses over into dolphinheart street, which leads towards hell street. In between we have watchtower park street, leading onto the Freemasons fire station street.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5JnngqQYvc

nice try, but pls dnt( once again) try to change the issue at hand

issues at hand:
[b]And yet no response from you on the issue you yourself raised?
also up till now , you have not answered these questions

you have also refused to respond to these questions and scripture:

[b]Just tell us the name of the church you associate with, that you are a member of!. If possible you can include its official website, at least you surpport using technology in Gods work. 

Tell us, do you know that Jesus Christ told someone that he has a God? And that statement was recorded in the kjv.? Can you tell us where this can be found?
If you can't answer this question brocab, then you dnt know the truth about Christ!. 
Expecially. The one spoken by Jesus himself.

Examine this questions brocab 1. If you say one body, one spirit, was Jesus a spirit before he came to earth? 
2. When Jesus was on earth, was the spirit in him his, the father or the holy spirit.?
3. After Jesus left the earth, did he remain in the body or became a spirit? 
4. What does Jesus mean by " the father is greater than I am" 
5. Why does Jesus say he is going to the father when you are trying to say he is spirit. 
6. You asked a question, the answer is yes, but ill like to ask you, what about the soul, why did you remove the soul when fomulating your question.

You cannot answer if Jesus is the same person as the father.

brocab , readers will note(again) that you have NOT quoted and explained ANY of the following scriptures :

1.rev 1:1,6
2. Rev 3, 2,13
3. John 17:1-3
4. Heb 1:1 -9 
5. John 20:17
6. 1 cor 11:3 
7 . 1 ti 2 :5,6
8.Acts 4:10
9. Acts 2:36
10. Acts 2:24
11. Acts 5:30
12.Acts 10:38,40,43
11. Phil 2:9,11 
12. john 14:6 
13. Acts 4 : 26,27, 30
14. 1 john 4:14
15. Heb 5:7 
16. ps 28:18

And a host of others

Brocab , examine these scripture 
Acts 5: 31.
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
John 3:16.
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but
have everlasting life.

Jesus is Gods only begotten son, Jesus is not God almighty!


YOU HAVE AGAIN ADDED LIES TO YOUR VIEWS.
Lets see if jesus was recognizable to those who knew him:

King James Version
Joh 20:14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS JESUS!

King James Version
Joh 20:15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? SHE SUPPOSING HIM TO BE THE GARGENER, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

I dnt think the disciples would have been able to recognize Jesus more than Mary, she probably would have known jesus from birth, and the picture of jesus in her memory would have been sharper than a 100 mega pixel camera!

but here you are , lying again that Jesus was recognizable to those who knew him!
dnt you think Mary should have been able to recognise jesus instantly if he had been raise in the same body he died in?
* this is a question ill hope you can give us answer to .

Do you notice how jesus appeared to his disciples who had locked the doors, his actions transcends the physical realm, he appeared to them gram!, in a locked rooM!. yet until he showed them death dealing wound marks, that was when they believed they where swing the Lord.

brocab pls tell us
1. DOES SOME ONE FACE CHANGE WHEN HE OR SHE IS RESSURRECTED WITH THE SAME BODY HE OR SHE DIED IN?

2.DOES SOME ONE GETS RESSURRECTED WITH THE WOUND'S OR INJURIES THAT KILLED HIM?
If your assumptions are true, I bet during the ressurection, we will know those whose throut where slit, cus there will still be a gapping hole in there necks. and those whose brains where blown out will have a hole in their head, cus they will be resurrected with that same body!

before, I digress, let's further examine ya lie.
King James Version
Joh 21:4But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: BUT THE DISCIPLES KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS JESUS.

john 21: 12 New International Version
Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.
even after seing jesus after his resurrecting, after being with jesus for years, they still do not recognize Jesus at first glance. If jesus had been resurrected with the same body he had died in, the disciples will have no doubt, they wunt need to even bother to ask the question that dared not to ask, "who are you".
Jesus had just showed them who he is, it is left for us to understand that they still had issues with jesus physical features, despite knowing that the person inviting theM to a meal is actually jesus.

I for one believe that only spirits do appear and dissappear at will!

spirits can manifest physical bodies of any liking for any particular purpose, the scriptures is awash with such occurrences, they can even use it to have sex sef!


sir do you ever read the scriptures at all.
It says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God!
human body is flesh and blood!
how then do you espect the king of gods kingdom to have flesh and blood while his Co rulers do not!
how do you expect the physical to rule in the spiritual realm.

brocab, Jesus was a spirit before he came to earth, was he not?
how come , you refuse him his spirit nature when he had accomplished the work he was sent to do here on earth?

brocab:
Now I am not expecting you to read or understand this page-but their are to types of Christians in this world No 1-Christians believe, No 2-Christians that don't believe.
The word of God is the truth, no man will deny the truth.
Jesus is the most important person who has ever lived since He is our saviour. God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man, In other words Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the word who was God, and was with God, and was made flesh {John 1:1,14} This means in a single person of Jesus He has both the human and divine nature, God and man. The divine nature was not changed when the word became flesh {John 1:1, 14} Instead the word was joined with humanity {Colossians 2:9} Jesus' divine nature was not altered. Also, Jesus is not merely a man, who had God within Him, nor is He a man who "manifested the God principle. "He is God in flesh. Second person of the trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory, and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word {Hebrews 1:3} Jesus's two natures are not mixed together. Look up the word {Eutychianism} nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. look up {Monophysitism} They are separated yet act as a unit in the One person of Jesus. this is called the {Hypostatic Union}

WHAT DID JESUS OUR SAVIOR SAY ABOUT GAINING EVALASTING LIFE?
King James Version
Joh 17:1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joun 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

SOME CLAIM JESUS IS FULLY GOD AND FULLY MAN BUT CAN NOT EXPLAIN HOW JESUS BEING FULLY GOD WAS :
1. Giving authority by someone else
King James Version
[b]Joh 5:26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
imagine, claiming someone is fully God yet he being given authority by someone else!

2. giving power by someone else
King James Version
Joh 3:35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

English Standard Version
On one of those days, as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting there, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was with him to heal.

Guys, check out the only true god!
Jer 27:4Give them this command for their masters: “‘“This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, says; this is what you should say to your masters,
Jer 27:5‘It is I who made the earth, mankind, and the beasts that are on the surface of the earth by my great power and by my outstretched arm; and I have given it to whomever I please.
can you guys see the difference!, yet they claim jesus is fully God.


3. Is not able to take any initiative by himself except what he sees another doing.

King James Version
Joh 5:19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
imagine fully God can do nothing of himself.

4. will be shown greater works
King James Version
Joh 5:20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

5. calls someone else his God.
[b]King James Version
Joh 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


6.cannot give certain things
King James Version
Mt 20:23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

7. does not know certain things
matt 24:36 English Standard Version
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

8. fully God and yet said this.
King James Version
Mt 27:46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


SOME PREFER TO USE UNSCRIPTURAL WORDS AND TERMS TO DESCRIBE JESUS, BUT WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES SAY WHEN JESUS CAME TO EARTH.

john 1:14
English Standard Version
And the Word BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the ONLY SON FROM THE FATHER, full of grace and truth.

King James Bible
And the Word was MADE FLESH , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

did that verse say Jesus added flesh to his divine nature? no
did it say Jesus had two natures? no
what glory did it say we beheld , God ? no , son of God !
JESUS WAS MADE FLESH, JESUS BECAME FLESH!

WHEN JESUS BECAME FLESH, DID HE RETAIN PART OF HIS DIVINE NATURE , TALK LESS OF ALL OF HIS DIVINE NATURE?

phil 2:7
English Standard Version
color=red]BUT EMPTIED HIMSELF[/color]but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men

International Standard Version
Instead, poured out in emptiness, a servant's form did he possess, A MORTAL MAN BECOMING. In human form he chose to be,

Isa 53:2, 3He will come up like a twig before him, like a root out of parched land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him.3He was despised and was avoided by men, A man who was meant for pains and was familiar with sickness. It was as if his face were hidden from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account.


brocab, you know I like asking you questions, telling you to explain the scriptures to me and expecially to thousands of people reading this thread. so pls brocab can you explain this two scriptures?

King James Version
Da 7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Da 7:14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


who is the Lamb and who is the ancient of days?

*READERS SHOULD NOTE IF HE WILL EXPLAIN

@ johnydon22

pls what's the pillar(s)of creation. is it a galaxy, part of a galaxy or just another thing in space.

Tinydick:
Are u talking abt d exact word Trinity or its equivalent? ??
If d case is former,,, nop!!!! It isn't in d Bible.
NOTE DAT Father, son and spirit re referred to as Trinity

sir, pls what is trinity ?

solite3:
ALPHA AND OMEGA.
Jehovah witnesses have tried so hard to see how they can remove this title from Christ but it always backfires.
How do we know that this title and rev1:8 refers to Christ?
Readers of revelations 1,2,3 should ask who is sending a message to the churches the Father or Jesus Christ?Rev 2:1,8,12,18 rev 3:1,7,14,
Revelations 1:10-17
10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet
11.Saying, I[b] am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last[/b]: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia and unto laodicea.
Do note that the voice identified himself by these
1. Alpha and Omega( The beginning and the Ending)
2 The first and The last
3. He that liveth, and was dead; And alive forever
4. He that have the keys of hell and of death

12. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me, And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks; one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle
Now John turned to see the voice
The term son of man is normally attributed to who? Jesus or the father
14. His head and his hairs were white as wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire.
These are the exact way Daniel described the being he saw in Daniel 10:9 and the Ancient of days in Daniel 7:9.
15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
The voice as the sound of many waters is described as the voice of the Almighty. See Ezekiel 1:24
16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
This is interesting, as John still described him as he who has the two edged sword in his mouth. See rev 19: 15.
Vs17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last.
This is a title used for God which the voice used for himself again. See isaiah 44:6
From this we can affirm that the person talking and been described is Jesus Our Lord and revelation1:8 refers to him since he was the one speaking to the church. ( God gave to Jesus what will happen in the future to Jesus in other to shew to his servants). In fact Jesus was the one speaking.

What about the angel?
The angel was sent by Jesus to testify by revealing this message to John ad it unfolds. Please take note that apart from the message to the church there were others John received in heaven itself.
Since Jesus described himself as the the Almighty, Alpha and omega,the first and the last. The Jesus himself must be God.
So the saying that at times the father speaks to john at other times it is Jesus is baseless.

the truth had been expressed to you in My post, which you could not refute, but prefers to use the muddling up method(so that no one can quote you).

If you want to share your understanding, do so by not adding words to the scriptures

rev 1:11 really says :
New International Version
which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

New Living Translation
It said, "Write in a book everything you see, and send it to the seven churches in the cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

English Standard Version
saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

Berean Study Bible
saying, "Write in a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

Berean Literal Bible
saying, "What you see, write in a book and send to the seven churches: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamum, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."

New American Standard Bible
saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
saying, "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

International Standard Version
saying, "Write on a scroll what you see, and send it to the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

NET Bible
saying: "Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches--to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Which said, “Those things which you have seen, write in a book and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesaus, to Zmurna, to Pergamaus, to Thawatyra, to Sardis, to Philadelphia and to Laidiqia.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
saying, "Write on a scroll what you see, and send it to the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

New American Standard 1977
saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

American Standard Version
saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Saying: What thou seest, write in a book, and send to the seven churches which are in Asia, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

Darby Bible Translation
saying, What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

English Revised Version
saying, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Weymouth New Testament
It said, "Write forthwith in a roll an account of what you see, and send it to the seven Churches--to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyateira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

World English Bible
saying, "What you see, write in a book and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and to.......

There are many more translations

solite3 added the words " Alpha and omega" to his quote of verse 11. did john really put this words in that verse?
This question is what I want readers and solite3 to investigate and talk about.

for those who want to investigate, this can be a good starting point
examiningthetrinity..com/2009/09/ao-speaker-confusion.html?m=1
www.biblebookprofiler.com/The_Forgery_of_Revelation_1_8.html

you can also check out the footnote of rev 1:11 in the NKJV
Footnotes:
a. Revelation 1:11 NU-Text and M-Text omit I am through third and.
b. Revelation 1:11 NU-Text and M-Text omit which are in Asia.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1%3A11&version=NKJV


fact: the earliest and most reliable manuscripts in which the english translations where translated from, do not have the word "Alpha and omega " in that verse!

personal oppinion: if the oldest and most reliable manuscripts do not have such words, how come some translations have it, I suspect this is the work of some church for fathers.
Thank god God was able to keep some of the manuscripts out of their hands!

brocab:
Don't you just love the word of God? And how the truth will set you free.
But you may not even scroll down to even read this page, the first line of course has got your attention, and then your evil thoughts will have it over you, knowing these words came from the word of God Himself, and sadly I brocab had decided to pass on this message to you.

And yet no response from you on the issue you yourself raised?
also up till now , you have not answered these questions, nor

you have also refused to respond to these questions and scripture:

[b]Just tell us the name of the church you associate with, that you are a member of!. If possible you can include its official website, at least you surpport using technology in Gods work. 

Tell us, do you know that Jesus Christ told someone that he has a God? And that statement was recorded in the kjv.? Can you tell us where this can be found?
If you can't answer this question brocab, then you dnt know the truth about Christ!. 
Expecially. The one spoken by Jesus himself.

Examine this questions brocab 1. If you say one body, one spirit, was Jesus a spirit before he came to earth? 
2. When Jesus was on earth, was the spirit in him his, the father or the holy spirit.?
3. After Jesus left the earth, did he remain in the body or became a spirit? 
4. What does Jesus mean by " the father is greater than I am" 
5. Why does Jesus say he is going to the father when you are trying to say he is spirit. 
6. You asked a question, the answer is yes, but ill like to ask you, what about the soul, why did you remove the soul when fomulating your question.

You cannot answer if Jesus is the same person as the father.

brocab , readers will note(again) that you have NOT quoted and explained ANY of the following scriptures :

1.rev 1:1,6
2. Rev 3, 2,13
3. John 17:1-3
4. Heb 1:1 -9 
5. John 20:17
6. 1 cor 11:3 
7 . 1 ti 2 :5,6
8.Acts 4:10
9. Acts 2:36
10. Acts 2:24
11. Acts 5:30
12.Acts 10:38,40,43
11. Phil 2:9,11 
12. john 14:6 
13. Acts 4 : 26,27, 30
14. 1 john 4:14
15. Heb 5:7 
16. ps 28:18

And a host of others

Brocab , examine these scripture 
Acts 5: 31.
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
John 3:16.
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but
have everlasting life.

Jesus is Gods only begotten son, Jesus is not God almighty![/b]

The bible is clear that Jesus 's body was resurrected. The tomb was empty. He was recognizable to those who knew Him, Jesus showed Himself to all of His disciples after His resurrection, and more than 500 people were eye witnesses to His earthly post-resurrection presence

YOU HAVE AGAIN ADDED LIES TO YOUR VIEWS.
Lets see if jesus was recognizable to those who knew him:

King James Version
Joh 20:14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS JESUS!

King James Version
Joh 20:15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? SHE SUPPOSING HIM TO BE THE GARGENER, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

I dnt think the disciples would have been able to recognize Jesus more than Mary, she probably would have known jesus from birth, and the picture of jesus in her memory would have been sharper than a 100 mega pixel camera!

but here you are , lying again that Jesus was recognizable to those who knew him!
dnt you think Mary should have been able to recognise jesus instantly if he had been raise in the same body he died in?
* this is a question ill hope you can give us answer to .

Do you notice how jesus appeared to his disciples who had locked the doors, his actions transcends the physical realm, he appeared to them gram!, in a locked rooM!. yet until he showed them death dealing wound marks, that was when they believed they where swing the Lord.

brocab pls tell us
1. DOES SOME ONE FACE CHANGE WHEN HE OR SHE IS RESSURRECTED WITH THE SAME BODY HE OR SHE DIED IN?

2.DOES SOME ONE GETS RESSURRECTED WITH THE WOUND'S OR INJURIES THAT KILLED HIM?
If your assumptions are true, I bet during the ressurection, we will know those whose throut where slit, cus there will still be a gapping hole in there necks. and those whose brains where blown out will have a hole in their head, cus they will be resurrected with that same body!

before, I digress, let's further examine ya lie.
King James Version
Joh 21:4But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: BUT THE DISCIPLES KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS JESUS.

john 21: 12 New International Version
Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.
even after seing jesus after his resurrecting, after being with jesus for years, they still do not recognize Jesus at first glance. If jesus had been resurrected with the same body he had died in, the disciples will have no doubt, they wunt need to even bother to ask the question that dared not to ask, "who are you".
Jesus had just showed them who he is, it is left for us to understand that they still had issues with jesus physical features, despite knowing that the person inviting theM to a meal is actually jesus.

{1 Corinthians 15:4-6} In {Luke 24:16} on the road to Emmaus, two of Jesus's disciples "were kept from recognizing {Jesus} However later their eye's were opened and they recognized Him. {V 31} It's not that Jesus was unrecognisable, it's that for a time the disciples were supernaturally retained from recognizing Him.

why is this ?
I for one believe that only spirits do appear and dissappear at will!

later in the same chapter of {Luke} Jesus makes it plain to His disciples that He does have a physical body, He is not a disembodied spirit: See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself, Touch Me and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have {Luke 24:39}

spirits can manifest physical bodies of any liking for any particular purpose, the scriptures is awash with such occurrences, they can even use it to have sex sef!

After spending 40 day's with His disciples, Jesus ascended Bodily into heaven {Acts 1:9} Jesus is still human, and He has a human body in heaven right now.

sir do you ever read the scriptures at all.
It says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God!
human body is flesh and blood!
how then do you espect the king of gods kingdom to have flesh and blood while his Co rulers do not!
how do you expect the physical to rule in the spiritual realm.

brocab, Jesus was a spirit before he came to earth, was he not?
how come , you refuse him his spirit nature when he had accomplished the work he was sent to do here on earth?

His body is different, However, earthly human flesh is perishable, but heavenly bodies are imperishable {1 Corinthians 15:50}
REASON, HEAVENLY BODIES ARE SPIRITS, JESUS IS NOW A SPIRIT, LIKE HE WAS BEFORE HE CAME TO EARTH!
that is why the scriptures could say this :
1 ti 6:16 English Standard Version
who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one(human, a cording to some translations) has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
humans can't see spirits!

1Co 15:45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam BECAME A LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT!.

[quote][color=#000099]Jesus has a physical body, with a difference. His resurrection body is designed with eternity in view.

this above, though it's still not totally true, goes to show that Jesus was not resurrected with the same body he died in. You are attempting to state that Jesus body was modified when he was resurrected, the scriptures does not surpport this . look at the apostles statement, about our body being like seed planted cinema the ground!

{1 Corinthians 15:39-49} Describes what the body of the believer will be like in heaven. Our heavenly bodies will differ from our earthly ones in type of flesh, in splendour, in power, and in longevity. The apostle Paul also states, that the believers body will be an image of Christ's body {V 49} Paul discusses this subject again in {2 Corinthians } where he compares earthly bodies to tents and heavenly bodies to heavenly dwellings.

if you had dared to quote those verses, people would have seen that your explanations of those verses are false!

{2 Corinthians 5:1-2} Paul says that once the earthly tent comes off, Christians will not be left naked-that is without a body to live in {2 Corinthians 5:3} When the new body is "put on" we will go from mortality to immortality {2 Corinthians 5:4}
So we will know that Christians will have a heavenly body, like Jesus "glorious body". {Philippians 3:21} At His incarnation Jesus took on human flesh, and at His resurrection His body was glorified-although He retained Himself the scars {John 20:27} He will forever be the God-man, sacrificed for us. Christ the creator of the universe, will forever stoop to our level, and He will be known to us in heaven in a tangible form that we can see, hear and touch {Revelation 21:3-4, 22:4}

[b]1Pe 3:18For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

the same spirit he was before coming to earth, he had sacrificed his physical body for us and he did not take it back!. He had given it as a ransom in exchange for many!

again I tell you brocab, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, no matter the supposed modifications.

Jesus is now a spirit in heaven, as to what the disciples and followers who go to heaven will be when they are ressurected jesus statements give us a clear view !

matt 22:30 New International Version
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

luke 20:36 New International Version
and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

King James Version
Mr 12:25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

ANGELS ARE SPIRIT CREATURES. NOT MADE OF FLESH AND BLOOD . THEY HAVE SPIRIT BODIES.

Jessicha:
lol, they are replying for the benefit of sincere ones reading the thread .

yep, my posts are not primarily for them, it's certain that in cases in which they are shown truth or asked certain thought provoking questions about the bible, they suddenly find reasons not to answer. my posts are primarily for the sincere , truth seeking ones out of the about 71,000 peeps reading this thread.

Tinydick:
Hop u get Bible,,,, kindly visit Matthew 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

sir, the word trinity, nor its concept, is not mentioned here o!

JEHOVAH, JESUS AND THE ALMIGHTY GOD

WHO IS JEHOVAH ?
David tells us he is the God of isreal.
1 chr 17 :24: May your name endure and be exalted forever, so that people may say, ‘Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, is God to Israel,’ and may the house of your servant David be firmly established before you.
* Jehovah is the God of the isrealites

In Psalms David also said he is the maker of the earth.
Ps 124:8O : ur help is in the name of Jehovah, The Maker of heaven and earth.”

He also said:
Ps 97:9: For you, O Jehovah, are the Most High over all the earth; You are exalted far above all other gods.
* Jehovah is the most high, pls notice these when we look at the most high and jesus

Isaiah said:
Isa 45:18 : For this is what Jehovah says, The Creator of the heavens, the true God, The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.
* there are no two jehovahs, no two persons bearing the same name Jehovah, only one person bears that name!

Paul further said:
Ro 3:29: Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations.

Jehovah himself said he does not change in mal 3:6
and he said in Exodus 6:3( and this time I used the kjv)
King James Version
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
* the name of the ALMIGHTY GOD IS JEHOVAH

Michai said:
1Ki 22:19: Mi·caiʹah then said: “Therefore, hear the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne and all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left.

examine this verse carefully
Ex 3:15Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

* for those who propose that Jesus is Jehovah ask yourself this questions
1. did Jesus ever said he is Jehovah?
2. did the disciples ever call jesus jehovah?
3. When the angel came to Mary, was the name Jehovah part of the names he said Jesus will bear?
4. Jehovah said, this is my name forever, this is how I'm to be remembered, have your not thus changed what God wanted by calling him jesus ?

ex 6:6-8
“Therefore, say to the Israelites: ‘I am Jehovah, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians and rescue you from their slavery, and I will reclaim you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.7And I will take you in as my people, and I will be your God, and you will certainly know that I am Jehovah your God who is bringing you out from under the burdens of Egypt.8And I will bring you into the land that I swore with an oath to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as something to possess. I am Jehovah.’”

Ex 15:11Who among the gods is like you, O Jehovah? Who is like you, showing yourself mighty in holiness? The One to be feared with songs of praise, the One doing wonders.


The scriptures(below) indicated the Jehovah called himself the father of the isrealites and the isrealites called Jehovah their father.
jer 3:19, jer 31: 9, isa 63: 16, isa 64:8, Deut 32:6, 1 chr 29:10, mal 1: 6, mal 2:10.

There are thousands of scripture verses I could refer to but from the verses posted above, we have learned the following:

1. Jehovah is the almighty God, the name of the almighty God is Jehovah.
2. jehovah is the God of isreal
3. Jehovah is also the God of gentiles who accept him as their God.
4. Jehovah is the creature of the earth.
5. Jehovah is the most high God.
6. Jehovah is the father of the isrealites.
7. jehovah is the one who sits on the throne.
*pls note this facts about Jesus when comparing him to jesus

There are also Scriptural verses about Jehovah as the one sitted on the throne and residing in heaven, you can check it if you are interested.


Now that the scriptures had clarified some things about jehovah let us check what Jesus said about these things to know if Jesus is Jehovah or not.


1. DID JESUS EVER SAY GE IS ALMIGHTY GOD TO SIGNIFY THAT HE IS JEHOVAH?NO!
At no time did Jesus ever say that he is the almighty God, he had several times stated that he is the son of God, and his disciples repeated this truth.

[b]Kjv
Ps 45:7: Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

King James Version
Joh 10:36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Kjv
1 john 4:9,15-
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
15- Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
* note: god did not send himself , he sent his only begotten Son

King James Version
Joh 5:19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

King James Version
Joh 5:20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
* no one can show the almighty greater works

King James Version
Joh 5:26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath HE GIVEN to the Son to have life in himself;

King James Version
Mr 5:7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

King James Version
Mt 16:16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

King James Version
Ac 13:33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

King James Version
Joh 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
*the almighty does not have a God that he calls " my God"[/b]

2 DID JESUS EVER STATE THAT HE IS THE GOD OF ISREAL OR OF GENTILES? NO!

[b]kjv
Joh 5:36: But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me .
*God sent Jesus, the father sent Jesus, the father is God and not Jesus

kjv
Ac 17:30,31 : And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness BY THAT MAN WHO HE HATH ORDAINED; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that HE HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD
* the person who raised and the person who was raised are not the same person, therefore the God mentioned in these verse and Jesus are not the same!

Ac 2:22: “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ was a man publicly shown to you by God through powerful works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.
*The person that did things and the person through whom things are done are not the same person[/b]


4. DID JESUS OR THE SCRIPTURES EVER CALL JESUS THE MOST HIGH, HIGHEST OR MOST HIGH GOD? NO!
Not only did the the scriptures not call jesus the most high god, it went further to tell us many times that jesus has a God, therefore he can't be the most high God !

[b]Joh 20:17.(quoted earlier)

2Co 1:3: Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort,

* who is the father of tender mercies?
Ex 34:6Jehovah was passing before him and declaring: “Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and compassionate, slow to anger and abundant in loyal love and truth,
Ps 86:5For you, O Jehovah, are good and ready to forgive; You abound in loyal love for all those who call on you.
Mic 7:18Who is a God like you, Pardoning error and passing over the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? He will not hold onto his anger forever, For he delights in loyal love.

RoM 15:6: so that unitedly you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kjv
2Co 11:31: The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Kjv
Eph 1:3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Kjv
Eph 1:17: That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Kjv
1Pe 1:3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

kjv
Mr 5:7quoted earlier)

kjv
Lu 1:32: He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
*jesus is not the Lord God![/b]

JESUS AND THE MOST HIGH

Ps 110:1Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

compare that verse with the apostles statement:
[b]King James Version
Mt 22:44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
acts 2: 32-34
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
* the LORD is jehovah(name deliberately removed to cause confusion),the other Lord is jesus , a different person from jehovah, sitting at the right hand of Jehovah, by jehovahs command!

acts 7:55,56 kjv
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

King James Version
Heb 8:1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the MAJESTY in the heavens;

King James Version
Heb 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, SAT DOWN ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH[/b]

*Jesus is not the most high
jesus is not the Majesty who he sat at his right hand.


5 DID JESUS CALL HIMSELF THE FATHER OF THE ISREALITES? NO!

[b]kjv
Joh 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

6 DID JESUS CALL HIMSELF THE ONLY TRUE GOD ? NO!
on the contrary he called the father the only true God, as Jesus is not the same person as the father, therefore Jesus is not the only true God.

kjv
Joh 17:1 to 3: These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

7.DID THE SCRIPTURES INDICATE THAT JESUS IS JEHOVAH? NO!

[b]Mic 5: 4
He will stand up and shepherd in the strength of Jehovah, In the superiority of the name of Jehovah his God. And they will dwell in security, For now his greatness will reach the ends of the earth.

8. WAS JESUS SENT BY GOD? yes, God did not send himself!
kjv
Joh 3:2,16,17, 32: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

9. IS JESUS THE ONE SITTING ON THE THRONE?NO!
kjv
Heb 8:1: Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Jehovah is the one who sits on the throne!

brocab and solite3 I've used the scriptures to show you that
1. Jesus is not the God of isreal, therefore Jesus is not Jehovah
2. Jesus is not the almighty God, therefore he is not Jehovah
3. Jesus has a God, therefore he is not the almighty God.
4. Jesus is the son of God , therefore he is not the father, he is not the father of the isrealites , therefore he is not Jehovah.
5. Jesus and the scriptures acknowledge the father to be superior to him, therefore Jesus is not the almighty God and so Jesus is not Jehovah.
6. prophecies that the name Jehovah was mentioned indicated that he is not sending himself as Messiah but sending someone else, showing that the messenger, Jesus is not jehovah
7. Jesus at no point ever said he is God Almighty.

I'll end it with this scripture:
For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

cc. jessicha, goodnews201668, jozzy4, barrister07.

COMPILATION:

From rev 1:1, we learnt that
1. The revelation comes from God and was given to Jesus
2. "God " in these verse and "Jesus" in these verse are not the same person
3. God here is different from Jesus
4. It was God that wants Jesus to show his servants the things that must shortly take place
5. Jesus now made the revelation from God known through his angel to his servant John
6. thereforE the revelation involved 4 persons , God, Jesus , the angel and John.

From rev 1:4-6 we learnt that
1. John was sending his greeting from (1) the one who is, and who was, and who is to come ( the identity of these one will be revealed later ) and (2) the seven spirits
2. The greetings are from two distinct sources , the one who is, who was, and who is to come, is not the same person as the seven spirits who are before His throne.

We also learnt that
1. These verses teaches us that the greetings by John to the seven congregations came from three dinstinct and different sources, first one was from the one who is, who was and who is to come, second one is from the seven spirit's which solite3 claim to be the holy spirit, thiRd greeting was from Jesus Christ.
2. The first greeting was from HIM , who the verse decribes as who is who was and who is to come(solite3 said this is the father).
3. The second greeting are from the seven Spirits( solite3 said these is the holy spirit)
4. The third is from Jesus who John calls the FAITHFUL WITNESS, THE FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD.
5. John makes an important statement , he saY's that Jesus had made us a kingdom, PRIESTS TO HIS GOD AND FATHER.
6. From 5 above we learn that Jesus did not only claim that the father is God, like some will like to believe, he claimed that the Father is HIS GOD? EVEN RIGHT THERE IN HEAVEN!
(The scriptures is awash with facts to support these claims , I shall quote most as we go along)
7. from the greeting of John and from his statements regarding Jesus. It is evident that :
a) Jesus is not the God mentioned is verse 1
b)Jesus has a God in heaven
c)Jesus is not HIM who gave the first greeting , the one described as who is who was and who is to come(which solite3 refers to as the father). john specifically describes who the greetings where from!
d)Jesus is not the almighty God as he had said, with John reiteratING that Jesus has A GOD!( note this is very much different from calling someone God, like some like to use as a defense to Jesus and John's statements)

From heb 1:9
1. Jesus has a God who is superior to him, who is his God .
2. This God is now suppor ting Jesus statements indicating he has a God , this God now states that he is the God of Jesus
3. It is this God who anointed Jesus and exalted him above his companions.
4. the reason for such anointing is because and not limited to the fact that Jesus loved righteousness and hated wickedness.

from rev 3:2,12 we learnt that 1. Jesus keeps repeating the fact that he has a God .
2 . He made this statement while he had gone back to heaven as a spirit creature
3. This means that even in heaven, Jesus still states that he has a God !
4. He calls his God "my God "
5. Jesus also has a new name

NOW TO REV 1:7
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
the identity of the one who is coming is easily identified as jesus , he was the one who was pierced when he was on earth, and who went to heaven in the clouds.

This coming refers to Jesus’ appearing in the future to reward the just and punish the wicked

People will not see him with their literal eyes. Since his ascension to heaven, Jesus is a spirit person “who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see.”— .
1 ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen

Jesus does not need to take on a human form to be “seen” by the inhabitants of the earth any more than Jehovah needed to do so when he brought the Ten Plagues on the Egyptians in the days of Moses. The people of that time had no doubt that Jehovah was causing the plagues, and they were forced to recognize his power. In a similar way, when Christ takes action as God’s Executioner, the wicked will be forced to “see,” or perceive, that Jesus is being used by God to judge them. They will know this because mankind will have been warned in advance. Yes, “every eye will see [Jesus], and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him

rev 1:8
ESV
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
I am The Alap and The Tau, says THE LORD JEHOVAH God, he who is and has been and is coming, The Almighty.
NWT
.8“I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Considering all the things learnt from rev1:1,4-6 , heb 1:9, and rev 3:2,12, it is very clear that these verse is not reffering to jesus, why?
because jesus cannot be the Almighty God, the almighty God does not have a God who is superior to him!
also from those points, we know that Jesus is not the who is ,who was and who is to come as John's greetings has seperated jesus from that person.
Therefore the verse is right to say that jehovah is the person that verse is referring to.

ALPHA AND OMEGA
While many people apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God.
The first verse of Revelation which i had explained shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus.


Thus at rev 1:8 it is Jehovah who is talking cus it's only jehovah that is the almighty God. Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God.

The title occurs again at rev 21:6
English Standard Version
And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
The following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” ReV 21:7

Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.
matt 25:40 English Standard Version
And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

heb 2:10-12 (ESV)
10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.
11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,
12 saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”

2Co 6:18“‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

The final occurrence of the title is at rev 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; verse 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself.
“The Alpha and the Omega” of verse 12-15 , therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God.

The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment.

Isa 26:21For look! Jehovah is coming from his place To call the inhabitants of the land to account for their error, And the land will expose her bloodshed And will no longer cover over her slain.”

mal 3: 1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”
[b] look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.
2. “But who will endure the day of his coming, and who will be able to stand when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen.
3. And he will sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and will cleanse the sons of Leʹvi; and he will clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness.
4. And the gift offering of Judah and of Jerusalem will actually be pleasing to Jehovah, as in the days of long ago and as in the years of antiquity.
5. “I will come near to you for judgment, and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who take false oaths, against those who defraud the hired worker, the widow, and the fatherless child, and against those who refuse to help the foreigner. These have not feared me,” says Jehovah of armies.
6. “For I am Jehovah; I do not change. And you are sons of Jacob; you have not yet come to your finish[/b]

The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—
This is what Jehovah says,
The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies:
‘I am the first and I am the last.
There is no God but me

my next post will be about jehovah and the almighty God .
.

[b]rev 3:2,12 ESV
Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of MY GOD.
12. The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of MY GOD , the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and MY OWN NEW NAME.

WHAT DO WE LEARN FROM THESE VERSE
1. Jesus keeps repeating the fact that he has a God .
2 . He made this statement while he had gone back to heaven as a spirit creature
3. This means that even in heaven, Jesus still states that he has a God !
4. He calls his God "my God "
5. Jesus also has a new name

my question to solite3 and brocab
1. do you now agree that in heaven jesus still has a God ?
2. do you know the God Jesus called "my god"?

now ill add all this evidence together and conclude by examinING rev 1:7,8

[b]heb 1:9( English Standard Version)
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; THEREFORE GOD, YOU GOD, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your COMPANNIONS.”

WHAT DO WE LEARN FROM THESE SCRIPTURE.
1. Jesus has a God who is superior to him, who is his God .
2. This God is now suppor ting jesus statements indicating he has a God , this God now states that he is the God of jesus
3. It is this God who anointed jesus and exalted him above his companions.
4. the reason for such anointing is because and not limited to the fact that Jesus loved righteousness and hated wickedness.

ARE THEIR SCRIPTURES TO SURPPORT THESE VIEWS ? YES

[b]Isa 61:1The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners,

Lu 3:21, 22Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus too was baptized. As he was praying, the heaven was opened up,
22and the holy spirit in bodily form like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: [color]“You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.”[/color]

Lu 4:18“Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free,

now the question to solite3 and brocab is
1. who is the God of jesus that anointed jesus

* pls note if there is a response to the scriptures quoted, and the questions asked.

I'll now move to the last part of the question which asked " who was talking in rev 3:3,12

rev 1:4-6 ESV
John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace [/u]FROM HIM[/u] who is and who was and who is to come, AND FROM the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 AND FROM Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, PRIESTS TO HIS GOD AND FATHER, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen

WHAT DOES THESE VERSES TEACH US
1. These verses teaches us that the greetings by John to the seven congregations came from three dinstinct and different sources, first one was from the one who is, who was and who is to come, second one is from the seven spirit's which solite3 claim to be the holy spirit, thiRd greeting was from Jesus Christ.

2. The first greeting was from HIM , who the verse decribes as who is who was and who is to come(solite3 said this is the father).

3. The second greeting are from the seven Spirits( solite3 said these is the holy spirit)

4. The third is from Jesus who John calls the FAITHFUL WITNESS, THE FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD.

5. John makes an important statement , he saY's that Jesus had made us a kingdom, PRIESTS TO HIS GOD AND FATHER.

6. From 5 above we learn that Jesus did not only claim that the father is God, like some will like to believe, he claimed that the Father is HIS GOD? EVEN RIGHT THERE IN HEAVEN!
(The scriptures is awash with facts to support these claims , I shall quote most as we go along)

7. from the greeting of John and from his statements regarding jesus. It is evident that :
a) jesus is not the God mentioned is verse 1
b)jesus has a God in heaven
c)jesus is not HIM who gave the first greeting , the one described as who is who was and who is to come(which solite3 refers to as the father). john specifically describes who the greetings where from!
d)jesus is not the almighty God as he had said, with John reiteratING that Jesus has A GOD!( note this is very much different from calling someone God, like some like to use as a defense to jesus and John's statements)

(color=blue] pls note all these points if when we are examining rev 1:7,8[/color])

do we have scriptures that surpport these explanations? yes

1. [b] rev 1:8 English Standard Version
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
NWT
Re 1:8“I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

2.rev 4:8 English Standard Version
And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”
NWT
As for the four living creatures, each one of them had six wings; they were full of eyes all around and underneath. And continuously, day and night, they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.”
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Each one of these four beasts stood and had from its appendages and over it six surrounding wings, and from within they are full of eyes and are not silent day or night, saying, “Holy, holy, holy, LORD JEHOVAH God Almighty.”
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Saying, “We thank you, LORD JEHOVAH God Almighty, who is and has been, for you have taken your great power and you have reigned.”

3. Re 3:14“To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:

4 Joh 15:9Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love.

5. King James Version
Joh 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.[/b]

Now my question to brocab and solite3
1. does jesus have a god?
2. who is the God of jesus?
3. can the almighty God have a god superior to him?

*readers should notice if they answer these questions or respond to the scriptures quoted.



now in my next post ill move on to another part of the question, which is quoting and explaining heb 1: 9

[b] rev 1:4(ESV) John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne

actually, I'm supposed to quote from verse 4-6, I'll do that next, but I specifically quoted verse 4, just to bring out some interesting things said by brocab and solite3 on these verse.

WHAT DO WE LEARN FROM THESE VERSE?( brocab and solite3 can respond if what I learned are wrong .
1. John was sending his greeting from (1) the one who is, and who was, and who is to come ( the identity of these one will be revealed later ) and (2) the seven spirits
2. The greetings are from two distinct sources , the one who is, who was, and who is to come, is not the same person as the seven spirits who are before His throne.

NOW LETS SEE SOME OF BROCABS AND SOLITE3 POSTS CONNECT ING THESE VERSE
*readers can cross check if I quoted them correctly or wrongly

take note of part of what brocab said on April 22, 11:54pm(this can be found on page 40 of these thread

It is Jesus who was, who is, and who is coming, it is Jesus who has the name the Alpha and the Omega. But it shows the scholars had taken Jesus's name out of text and replaced it with Jehovah God.

part of what brocab said oh april 30, 3:41am( this can be found on page 40 of these thread)

{4} John" to be the seven assemblies {Churches} that are in Asia; Grace to you and Peace, from Him {Jesus} who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne;

part of what brocab said on may 8 , 10:26pm(this can be found on page 41)

YOU DENY THE WORD OF GOD BY YOUR OWN ACTIONS, DENYING "WHO IS, "WHO WAS, AND "WHO IS TO COME, DENYING CHRIST IS CHRIST WAS AND CHRIST IS TO COME

Now see what solite3 said on may 6 9:55.(This can be found on page 45)

churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which was, and which is to come(referring to The father);and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne( referring to the Holy Spirit)
vs5 And from Jesus Christ,who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the faithful witness,and the first begotten of the of the dead,.....

brocab and solite3, who should we now believe between the two of you
brocab: the one who is, who was and who is to come is jesus
solite3: the one who is, who was and who is to come refers to the father.

This brings about the question(PLS EVERYONE SHOULD OBSERVE IF BROCAB AND SOLITE3 WILL ANSWER THESE)
1. is jesus the same person as the father?
2. If not , how can both now be the one who is, who was and who is coming?

while we wait for these answers, I'll move on to quote and explain my views on rev 1:4-6