₦airaland Forum

Jolliano:
1. The first image was made in about 150AD. This is the oldest image that is still around now. There would definitely be older ones which have been lost or misplaced.
Just as original manuscripts of the books in the bible are no longer here.

Dnt merge 2 totally different scenarios together.
1. The original manuscripts existed, this pictures of mary did not, despite your speculations that it did and was lost.
2. The original manuscripts where copied for preservation and distribution, your so called original copy was not. So even if your original pictures did exist, that we can't find the original or copy shows you the early christians, the apostles and jehovahs view of the images of mary.

So if you say the apostles did not know of the images because we have no image from their time, the same can be said (even more) about the books of the bible.

Haba!, read what you posted again.!
How did you get the scriptures into your hands? Are you saying that the words in ur bible (though translated) are different from the ones written down by the apostles?
Or are you trying to tell us that the words in the manuscripts that we have now are collectively different from the one written by the apostles.

If your statement is true, then you are pointing to a fact the the bible you hold is fake and not a copy of the original, just like the pictures and images of mary, for that webpage says:

"Just like we don’t know what Jesus looked like, we don’t know what His mother Mary looked like either."

I also asked the question : how did you now get the pictures and images of mary and Jesus.?
Did they just formulate one and you adopted it?

B. St John died in about 100AD and just fifty years later, you are saying the Christians had fallen away and started making images. Oksy o. Can you give us a proof of the Christians falling away at that time?

1 ti 4:1-3
However, the inspired word(spirit) clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, by
means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a
branding iron. They forbid
marriage and command people
to abstain from foods that God
created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth.

He further warned and admonished timothy in verse 7 and eleven .

[b]But reject irreverent false stories, like those told by old women. On the other hand, train yourself with godly devotion as your aim.

Keep on giving these
commands and teaching them.

Acts 20:30
and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

Titus 1: 10,11,16
For there are many rebellious men, profitless talkers, and deceivers, especially those who adhere to the circumcision.
It is necessary to shut their
mouths, because these very
men keep on subverting entire
households by teaching things they should not for the sake of dishonest gain.
They publicly declare that they
know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort.

2 cor 11:12-14
[b]For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.

Jude 1:4,16
[b]My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.

These men are murmurers, complainers about their lot in life, following their own desires, and their mouths make grandiose boasts, while they are flattering others for their own benefit.

If these people could exist and do these during the time of the apostles, i lost to see why they can't achieve the false doctrines about mary in the next 50 years.

The scriptures specifically mentioned several times one of the reasons for their actions, that they did it Cus of their desires, they did not like their present lot in life.
They found a way to enrich themselves, taking control of the congregation, creating false teachings and doctrines so that it could go along with pagan worshipers so as to absorb them into christianity to create a larger base for their plans.
These plans became fruitful during the time of constantine as he gave them political power and riches.

But as the scriptures says, their works shows who they where: they appointed kings, frolicked with rulers of the system and turned from the one being killed to the one doing the killing.

C. You say the State Church created the images but you already said the State Church was formed by Constantine. So how did a State Church formed in 325AD create an image in 150AD?

Your refusal to show in ur replies which part of my post you are reffering to shows you are hiding something or trying to twist my post. For you deliberately removed the word "adherents" when you tried to discuss what I said. You know fully well that adherents consists of those who where members of the church long before the church became a state church, and continued their works long afterward.
How many of the pictures existed before 325AD and how many of the pictures in that website existed after 325AD.?

Dnt know why you want to emphasize on the one before 325AD when I've already replied on that one thus seperating it from the other and more numerous images that came after 325AD.
Pls apply my statements to where I applied them!

2. You are now arguing using non-biblical sources to argue. Thought you were Sola Scriptura guy. Why can’t you use the bible to prove that there were James and not two?

I will fully reply it in your next post sha.

Pls quote my post again, bold it to show where I did that!
If my use of non scriptural sources you are reffering to the webpage on mary's image, I was simply using ur own webpage to point out the source of your imaginary images.
I've used the scripture to show you 3 james.

Jolliano:
10. Firstly, you only broke down charitoo. Break down KECHARITOMENE and show us if it means “Full of grace” or “Highly favoured”.

Look at your words again below

From Charitoo which means grace. Do a break down of the words used to make
KECHARITOMENE and see if
it means "FULL OF GRACE"
or not.

I checked charitoo ,which is the main word or root word and posted what I found to you. You rejected the source of the first one, and you are now rejecting this one because it focused on charitoo.

Charitoo means highly favoured.

Excerpts from a website
[b]But, as anyone trained in Greek is aware, there is no way to jump from the perfect tense of a participle to the idea that the Greek "indicates a perfection of grace." First,
participles primarily derive their tense aspect from the main verb of the sentence. In this case, however, we have a vocative participle, and no main verb in what is in actuality simply a greeting. (The fact that the Roman Catholic Church has to attempt to build such a complex theology on the form of a participle in a greeting should
say a great deal in and of itself.)

What are we to do with the
perfect tense of the participle,
then? We might take it as an
intensive perfect, one that
emphatically states that
something *is* (see Dana and
Mantey, A Manual Grammar of
the Greek New Testament pg.
202), but most likely it is simply
emphasizing the certainty of the favor given, just as the perfect passive participle in Matthew 25:34 ("Come, you who are blessed by my Father...", 1 Thessalonians 1:4 ("For we know, brothers loved by God...", and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ("But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord..." emphasizes the completedness of the action as well. No one would argue that in Matthew 25:34, Jesus means to tell us that the righteous have a "perfection of blessedness that indicates that they had this perfection throughout their life,.........
......."This is a recognition of her sinless state," falls for lack of support. The angel addressed Mary as "highly favored," for, as he himself said, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God."[/b]

Being full of grace does not mean she has perfect understanding na. Besides the Angel greeted her with a royal word “Hail” and she was not a queen though she was from the royal tribe of Judah.
If an angel appeared to you and called you King or Oba, regardless of how holy you are , you would be troubled at the statement. The word disturbed doesn’t connote anything sinful.

If mary was born without sin, she would have known it.
If mary was perfect, the scriptures would have told us that jesus is not the only perfect human at that time.
If mary birth had been miraculous to allow her not to born in sin, the scriptures would have emphasized it.

You say mary is a descendant of eve and adam, and the scriptures say all of their descendants where born in sin and these cause death. Now how did mary die?

If mary was born without sin, then all your typology on mary and eve in respect of giving birth with pains is false, cus the punishment will not apply to mary.

What had to happen before jesus was born perfect was explained on the scriptures, non was done for mary. Mary was concieved with an imperfect sperm from an imperfect man and thus perfection was passed to her as it has been done from the time of adam. For jesus to be born perfect, no sperm was involved.
The use of kecharitomeme to indicate mary was born without sin is the height of the development of false doctrine.
Ill advise that you look into the greek word translated into "hail " before you say again that it is a royal greeting.

So what you are saying with the emphasis on found favor is that by Mary’s ability, she found God’s favor and then God decide to send Jesus through her. That is wrong.

She was favoured to be the woman who will bear the messiah! That is what the angel was telling her.

God created Mary “Kecharitomene” (find out the real meaning). He already planned to come down to Earth by that time. He sent Mary, John the Baptist, the Apostles at that time because he had a plan. It was not a result of Mary finding favor.

No scriptures to support ur statements! Shows they are false!. Mary had no special creation.

So saying Luke 1:31-32 is a favor mary found with God is wrong. This is a passing of relevant information concerning what is about to her to Mary.

Among all women who are descendants of adam and David. Mary was chosen to conceive and bear the son of God. She was highly favoured!

11. Mary was from adam and so was Jesus. One who was made right from creation “Full of grace” is obviously “Empty of sin”.

Mary's birth is totally different from that of jesus. Mary had a human biological father!

The same way God saved and saves people from sin regardless of their age is the same way God saved Mary from sin before birth in order that She would be more NOBLE and PERFECT – Heb. 9:11.

Let's see heb 9:11
11 But when Christ came as
high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.

Does this verse say anything about being saved before birth? No.

Does it say God have saved people from sin prior to jesus death? No.

What does this false doctrine about being saved prior to the ransome sacrifice tell us.? It teaches us that there are other means to have gained salvation before Christ came.
Does the scripture support this view ? Absolutely NO!

Let's go further on what heb chapter 9 says:

12. He entered into the holy place, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time, and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us.

Nobody was delivered or saved from sin(including mary) until when jesus entered into the holy place with his own blood.

You can see this is the scriptures talking and the doctrines are not based on the translation of a simple greeting.

15. That is why he is a
mediator of a new covenant, in
order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.

Now did mary receive the inheritance or not? If yes, then she received it not by being born without sin and thus saved but through the death of jesus Christ.

Now can you be born without sin while still being a descendant of adam basing it on the future ransome sacrifice of jesus? In other words, can you be born sinless on credit? The answer is NO!
Take a look at verse 17.

For where there is a covenant, the death of the human covenanter needs to be established, because a covenant is valid at death, since it is not in force as long as the human covenanter is living.

It is quite obvious that the Law covenant and the new covenant required the shedding of blood in order to go into operation or to be effective before God. Otherwise God would not have recognized them as valid, nor dealt with the persons involved on the basis of a covenant relationship, as verse 17 explains.

For the validation of the Law covenant, the sacrifice used was that of animals—bulls and
goats—these taking the place of Moses, the mediator. (verse 19 ) For validating the new covenant, the sacrifice was the human life of Jesus Christ.
Luke 22 :20
Also, he did the same with the cup after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in
your behalf.

[b]Consequently, neither
was the former covenant put into effect without blood. For when Moses had spoken every commandment of the Law to all the people, he took the blood of the young bulls and of the goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled the book and all the people, saying: “This is the blood of the covenant that God has commanded you to keep.” He likewise sprinkled the tent and all the vessels of the holy service with the blood. Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.
Therefore, it was necessary for the typical representations of the things in the heavens to be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things require far better sacrifices. For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf. This was not done to offer himself often, as when the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself.
And just as it is reserved for
men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment, so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the
second time that he appears it
will be apart from sin, and he
will be seen by those earnestly
looking for him for their salvation.[/b]

The old covenant cannot save the descendants of adam including mary .

God is not limited by timer and space.

God is a God of order, he does not do things anyhow. He is dealing with people who view time and space as very important.

12. “All have sinned”.

Another take one verse and argue approach.

Romans 3:3 – “… if SOME of them were not faithful……”
Romans 3:9 – “”Do we have, then, any advantage? Not really. For we have just demonstrated that all, Jews and non-Jews, are under the power of sin,
Romans 3:10 – “as the Scripture says: Nobody is good, not even one,
”
Romans 3:23 – “Because all have sinned and all fall short of the Glory of God”

Two things are clear:
A. Paul uses all to connote that both jews and gentiles are in need of salvation. He does not say that every individual had sinned.
B. Paul still uses SOME in the same context. Even the scriptures he quoted from (which is Psalm 14 and also 53) shows that the statement is not general on individuals.

A. You cannot twist the truth as mentioned in the scriptures!
Paul specifically tell us that all have sinned !
Rom 3:3
What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For
above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin;

Verse 23 and 24 .
[b]For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved
kindness [u]through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.

Psalms 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother
conceived me.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

Mary died, did she not? What killed her, other people or sin?

Dnt try and remove some people that the scriptures did not tell you to remove from "all" that have sinned.

B. Always quote the complete sentence of the scripture mentioned even if you dnt want to quote the whole verse

Rom 3:3
What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God's faithfulness?

What does being faithful or unfaithtful have to do with being born in sin,? pls dnt let's spoil our discussion by twisting the scriptures
Was paul talking about inherited sin there? No
Are there some faithful humans? Yes
Are there some unfaithful humans? Yes
Are all humans born in sin? Yes.(except for jesus in which the reason and process of being born without sin are extensively mentioned and explained in the scripture and not as a result of a greeting.)

Was David born in sin? Yes
Was david faithful? Yes
Did David die like mary ? Yes
Mary was born in sin like every other descendants of adam!

Why do you not quote the psalms that support ur views and let us see.

13. Born without sin before Jesus’ death.
If you say Mary could not have been born before Jesus’s death because Jesus’ death is necessary for salvation, then you are indirectly saying that every one that died before Jesus came were all not forgiven or saved from sin and so Abraham, Noah, Moses, ENOCH and ELIJAH were neither forgiven their sins nor saved.

I wunt bother to go into details with you on this, cus you urself have contradicted your views with your statement.
You have admitted they where sinners, and where not saved from the effect of sin while alive.
Your question has also shown that you dnt understand the difference between forgiveness of sin and being saved from sin.
The old covenant can forgive sins, but cannot save one from it!

Also you make God to be a liar because in so many places in the OT, God forgave sins and yet Jesus had not come or died.

1. They had to sin first before forgiveness, therefore none was born perfect as you try to claim that some where.
2. Inherited sin can only be taking away by jesus ransome sacrifice, that is why jesus is the second adam, to restore what adam lost and give us salvation.
3. The gift of everlasting life can only be obtained through faithfulness and obedience to God till the end.
4. It is suprising how you are trying to link forgiveness of sin to sinlessness. there is no sin without law, the law makes your sin manifest, but the laws now also provided a way to seek and gain forgiveness for that sin. But it does not save you from the effect of sin!.

Do not limit God by space and time.

You say no one can be righteous from Rom 5:12 but forget Luke 1:6, Hebrew 11 and the other people describes as righteous.

Before I answer you on these , pls tell me where I said what you posted above.

Why do you not reply by quoting the specific section in my post that you are making reference to. This ur method will not allow others to fully understand the discussion.....or maybe that's ur aim.

Jolliano:
1. Even Jesus clarified the issue with Nathaniel. “You believe because I said: 'I saw you under the fig tree.' But you will see greater things than that.”

Nathaniel did not exclaim because he saw Jesus’ Glory. He exclaimed because Jesus said He saw him under the tree. What is glorious about seeing someone under a tree?

Cus jesus was not at that tree to see Nathaniel sitting down.
Would you not be astonished if I tell you all you did yesterday, even in the privacy of ur house?
Do you think its an ordinary thing to see someone sitting down under the tree far away from ur line of sight.?
The answers to that will make you understand why Nathaniel believed jesus cus of jesus statement.
Jesus did not only see Nathaniel , he told Nathaniel who he is!, which suprised Nathaniel.
I'm suprised that you view this as not magnificent and impressive and thus to be classified as glorious!.
Maybe you expect something to be a physical manifestation before its glorious.

If you had brought your argument from the notion that all Jesus did was Glorious, it would be different. But using Nathaniel’s statement doesn’t prove any point.

If I've done that you would not have been able to reply at all.

Yes. Glory isn’t followed by miracles. But Glory is followed by unusual events e.g. Transfiguration.

Who is talking about glory?

Using dictionary for spiritual discussions doesn’t help. The Glory of God is not ”something that makes you feel very happy”.

Dnt change the topic , glorious deed is different from glory.

2. “She took its fruit and ate it and gave some to her husband who was with her. He ate it.” – Gen 3:8.

Eve did not command Adam to eat the fruit. At most, what she did was suggest it to him. Just as Mary suggested to Jesus subtly when she said “Son, they have no wine”.

Jesus has Told you several times that he has not done anything on his own, all he did are what the father had told him to do.
Mary's suggestion has no basis. Jesus would have done so, even if mary had not made the suggestion. This is the difference between what eve did and that of mary.

You dnt even know if mary's request was that jesus should bring money for them to go and buy more wine.

I remember what jesus told mary when she made that suggestion, Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?

3. Nobody has said Mary was the head of the family. If a wife is holier than the husband, it does not make her the head of the family. Do not assume when making a logical argument.

And then dnt give her a headship position.
God did not give it to her when she had jesus, jesus did not give it her when he was on earth( he even went further to tell you and I who his mother is), the apostles did not give it to her when she was with them, why then do you now give it to her even when the scriptures did not tell you to.?
Queen mother or queen of heaven is an earthly title that has no divine inspiration and the scriptures never mentioned any good thing about that title, not even one good thing!

4. Explanation of the bolded parts.
The woman is Mary. Gen 3:15 was spoken to the serpent about the woman and the man she is to give birth to. Which man fulfiled the prophecy and who was his mother.

Haba!, is jesus not a descendant of eve?

However, when God spoke to the woman and the man directly, he spoke to them and their descendants. You seem to be tying it strictly to Mary which is a wrong move. Typology is not necessarily tied to one person alone.

You are the one tying the prophecy to mary!

When God spoke to the woman in verse 16, He was talking to her and all the women to come.
When God spoke to the man in verse 17 - 19, He was talking to him and all the men to come.

Why are you now changing course, so the prophecy was not for eve alone, but for her and all her offsprings!
Dnt worry, you will still change it again.

So obviously, sharpening the pain and he ruling over her refers to every human and to the structure of a family based on Marriage.

Are you saying that the structure on family giving by God will change when we become perfect again?
What does giving birth in pain have to do with family structure?
Can you tell us if mary gave birth in pain?

5. DISOBEDIENCE IS A PRODUCT OF DISBELIEF.
You are trying to separate the Faith from the Works. If I do something evil consciously, then I am guilty of both disbelief and disobedience.

Read John 3:36. Disbelief and Disobedience are the same. Leave English dictionary and follow biblical language.

Quote the scripture you mentioned and let's see if you are right.

I gave you an example of how people believe they will be purnished yet went along to disobey the command giving.

Did David disbelief God when he sinned? No. His imperfect state caused him to disobey Gods command, God did not purnish him for disbelief, he was purnished for disobedience. Disbelief is not disobedience!

Did Satan disbelief God or disobeyed God?
Or do you think Satan does not know that they will die when he lied to eve?

Again I tell you, eve was purnished for disobedience not disbelief, there explanation shows that they believed God but where deceived by Satan.
Rom 1:5
John 15:14

6. Covenants.
God does not say I will only give you children if you honour the covenant. Gen 3:16-19 is the punishment given for breaking the covenants.

The above destroys ur view that mary was the ark cus she gave birth to jesus. Breaking the covenant did not stop eve from giving birth, therefore the covenant was not based on womens ability to give birth, but rather on their obedience to God.

Every time someone disrespected the Ark of the Covenant, there was a punishment. Uzziah is a nice example.
When the covenant box was captured during times of war, the Israelites always suffered defeat.
Even the philistine god Dagon fell face flat, broke its head and arms when the Ark of the Covenant placed in front of it.

The punishments where for disobedience. All punishments associated with the ark was as a result of direct disobedience of Gods command respecting the ark. There was no punishment that has no law to guide it. Uzziah was punished cus he disobeyed Gods command, not because he disrespected it!

7. Holy ground.
It doesn’t support your view. You are trying to circumvent the Holy ground and you are just trying to tie the command to God directly without remembering that the command was given about a place that God himself made holy.

God gave the instruction to Moses because God had made the ground holy. The fact is God made it holy and detrmined what was to be done there and what is not to be done there. If you desecrate the place, you irreverence it and by irreverencing it, you offend the One who made it holy.

The question I asked is, So if the instruction was not giving and moses had worn his sandals into the holy ground, would he have shown irrelevance and disrespect to the holy ground ?.
You did not answer the question.

If the instruction has not been giving, would moses be purnished for wearing the sandals into the holy ground? No.
So he will be purnished for disobeying an order and not purnished for disrespect, same with the ark.
If moses have been told to remove his clothes there and he had not done it, he would have been punished. But that he was not giving such command, he was not punished for wearing his clothes into the holy ground.

8. Other Children.
“They thought he was in the company and after walking the whole day they looked for him among their relatives and friends”. –- Luke 2:44.

They did not say they looked for him along the other children. They looked for him among their relatives and friends.

Did you read the verses at all?

First king games Bible says :
"But they, supposing him to
have been in the company."

Holman Christian Standard
Bible says :
"Assuming He was in the
traveling party, they went a
day's journey.

International Standard
Version says :
They thought that he was in
their group of travelers.

Aramaic Bible in Plain
English says:
"For they were thinking that he
was with the children of their
friends.

Does this verse not tell you that they know as a family that jesus was not with them,? that they thought he was with other people travelling in the same direction with them?
They already know he is not with them, but you want the scriptures to expand it to "he was not with the other children of mary". The point there is that jesus alone stayed in Jerusalem. That the verses did not mention other children of mary does not mean mary did not have other children . The context was on jesus and not the other children. And they where not dummies to be looking for him among their own children when they already know he is not among them. They had travelled for a day, it is enough time for a good parent to count her children and know one is not there, so why search among the children. You will search among the other travellers in which you initially believe he is among, not ur other children in which you already know he is not.!

Even verse 43 says his parents were returning home. No mention of other children.

Cus the story was about the custom of the parents, they did not mention directly that they took jesus Along, but the content of the story shows jesus went with them. If jesus had not stayed in the temple on that occasion, the story would not have been told like the previous 11 and next 17 years of that custom of Joseph and mary where not told.

9. Mary and Elizabeth.

Bros, Luke 1:36 uses syngenis not anepsios.

And did I say the verse used anepsios?

This is what I said :
[b]”Even the writer of Luke used the greek word for relative when refering to mary and elizabeth.”

So did the writer of luke not use the greek word for relative.?

And anepsios only occurs once in the bible which is in Colossians 4:10. This negates your argument that they used “ANEPSIOS”.

That it was used at all shows you it was a known word in greek, and it was used where it was supposed to be used.

What is my arguement ? That there is a word for cousin in greek, and that word was used in the scriptures!

What ur defence? That it was only used once! Imagine.
pls give us another place where it should have been used and it was not used.
If the Greeks do not use relatives, they will be more specific with the description of the relationship.
Trying to bring the hebrew view into greek writings in a wrong view.

Paul was very very educated and so he would know specific words that you wouldn’t expect the rest of the Apostles to know. Read Acts 22:3.

Yep, the other writers of the new testament are olodos and do not know simple greek words like the one used for "cousin.".

Footnote: pls handle my posts the way I do urs so that all aspects of my post can be responded to.
These are things you did not respond to in ur post .

1.
A.So how do you honour ur
biological mother, that is
different from how u honour
her spiritually
B.how do you honor ur mother
spiritually.
C.how is Mary your mother.

2.. Other peoples children would not have been moving with mary so frequently mentioned in the scriptures if she had not been their biological mother. They would have been with their own mother, afterall they did not believe in Jesus untill after his ressurection.

3. The question I asked about Jesus sitting at the right hand of God until his enemies have been put under his feet has not been answered by you

malvisguy212:
first the verse in exedus say "he will not PARDON your transgressions" does this sound like the nature of Jesus?
Secondly,The only person being said to have exist in ancient of days is Jesus, angel never exist before the world was. The fact that God send angel to guide the isrealite does not mean that angel must be Jesus christ.
Hebrew 1:5-13
For to which of the ANGELS did He ever
say: “You are My Son, today I have
begotten You”? And again: “I will be to
Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a
Son”? But when He again brings the
firstborn into the world, He says: “Let
all the ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
And of the angels He says: “Who
makes His angels spirits and His
ministers a flame of fire.” BUT TO THE SON HE SAYS: “YOUR THRONE, O GOD is
forever and ever; a scepter of
righteousness is the scepter of Your
kingdom. You have loved
righteousness and hated lawlessness;
therefore God, Your God, has
anointed You with the oil of gladness
more than Your companions.” And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the
foundation of the earth, and the
heavens are the work of Your hands.
They will perish, but You remain; and
they will all grow old like a garment;
like a cloak You will fold them up, and
they will be changed. But You are the
same, and Your years will not fail.”
But to which of the angels has He
ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I
make Your enemies Your footstool”?

Jesus superiority is shown in this verse,
For to which of the ANGELS did He ever
say: “You are My Son, today I have
begotten You”? And again: “I will be to
Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a
Son”? NONE!! Furthermore God call the son ( Jesus ) O God . Jesus accept worship of lesser angels in Hebrew. The bible clearly say Angels do not accept worship in revelation.

All angels, authorities,and powers “have been made subject to Him” (1 Peter 3:22). “In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is NOT SUBJECT TO HIM ” (Hebrews 2:. Jesus, therefore,is not Michael, the archangel, “for it was
not to angels that God subjected the world to come” .

1.Plappville quoted some verses from corinthians, pls give us ur view on those verses.

2.At bold, can you tell us why you think that angels did not exist before the founding of the world?

3. So you finally admit that jesus has a God, a God who anointed him and placed him in a position above his companions!.
Abeg if jesus companions are not angels, who are they!

4. You failed to complete the issue of subjection, who placed everything under jesus, jesus himself or someone superior to jesus?.
Is jesus still subjected to that one who placed everything under him?

Keep on believing that jesus in almighty God, even after he and the apostles have told you that he has someone superior to him.

obixcel:
BEAST OF NO NATION'' Not finished watching it though. I've just watched like an hour and four minutes of it. The first 30 mins of d movie b4 the war thing started nearly made me roll on d floor with laughter, so hilarious. I'm so loving it. Little wonder the Movie won an award. Nice one.

"I'm having the ideas and dikes having the talent."

If I try wetin that guy do to my dads TV. Ill be skinless by now cus he would have removed it!

malvisguy212:
In the name(not names ) of the father,son and Holy spirit=ONE God ,YAWEH. God called Jesus His son because it was God the son incantate in Him.

I asked you 1 question accompanied by two requests
Pls endeavor to treat my request as you treated the question.

God(1st person) called jesus (2nd person) his son because it(no person) was God the son) a phrase never used or surpported by the scriptures) incantate(a word I'm still looking for its definition) in him(2nd person)
Wow!!!
You guys and the use of derived analogy to arrive at another derived analogy.

So why does the son call God his father?
Because god the son is Incantate in the father?
Or simply because the father is the father and God of jesus like jesus and the apostles have told you several times.

We know who our God is. Jesus told us he is the father, that he, the father is the only true God. That he is both his (jesus)father and God.
The apostles who heard jesus well well tell us that only the father is our God.
Keep on serving ur 3 in 1 God, the Egyptians did so before God told them he is only one God.
Keep on having 1 in 3 Gods, the Greeks and romans and babylonians did so untill jesus said the father is the only true God. As for me, ill follow the words of the apostles: we have only one God, the father! And not "father, son and holy spirit", a sentence that can never be found in the scriptures!

malvisguy212:
NO, Jesus is NOT the father, infact, it was NOT God the father that incarnate in Jesus, it was God the son. A good example is the baptism of Jesus, here we read ALL three was present at the same time.
Matthew 28:19-20
Go Therefore and make disciples of
all the nations, baptizing them in the
NAME of the Father and the Son and
the Holy Spirit, teaching them to
observe all that I commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to
the end of the age."

It should be noted that the other two
names (Father and Holy Spirit) are names for God. In fact, the text says specifically that they should be baptized in the NAME (SINGULAR), not names, of the three persons mentioned. In order to be one name, they must all represent God.

Pls tell us, what is that name?
Give an example in the scriptures and tell how can one today be babtized in that name.


All three being present does not mean the 3 are equal or are God .
I remember Gods words at jesus babtism: this is my son , in whom I'm well pleased!

God did not say" this is God the son"," this is God or this is my other part".
Worship the only true God!

@ SisterSister

..........continued

There are too many scriptures to list regarding Jesus and who he is but here are the five scriptures you requested, plus 12 more:

I wanted scriptures that says jesus is the almighty God or that says jesus is equal to the almighty God, or that says the father son and holy spirit are equal.

I also wanted just five at the first instance so that there can be space to examine them.

Matthew 1:23 (KJV)
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

They shall call his name immanuel

Who Was Immanuel?
Some names of individuals in the Bible were prophetic and
describe the work the person
would do.
(Im·manʹu·el) [With Us Is God].
A name first mentioned by the
prophet ) during the reign of Ahaz (761-746 B.C.E.).

In Matt 1:23, the only other occurrence, Immanuel is a name-title applied to Christ the Messiah.
In that eighth century B.C.E., Pekah and Rezin, the kings of Israel and Syria, were bent on overthrowing Ahaz, king of Judah, in order to put the son of Tabeel upon his throne. (Isaiah 7:1-6)
Jehovah, however, remembered his kingdom covenant with David, the forefather of Ahaz, and sent his prophet with this reassuring message:

“Listen, please, O house of
David. . . . Jehovah himself will
give you men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name
Immanuel. Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. For before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely.”— (Isaiah 7:13-16)

Then, after telling about the birth of Isaiah’s second son, Maher- shalal-hash-baz, the prophecy next describes how the threat to Judah would be removed. As an irresistible flood, the Assyrians would completely inundate Syria and the northern kingdom of Israel, not stopping until they had dangerously spread over the land of Judah, even “to fill the
breadth of your land, O Immanuel!” Then, in poetic
grandeur, the prophet Isaiah
warns all those in opposition to Jehovah: If you gird yourselves for war, if you plan out a scheme, if you speak a word against Jehovah—“it will not stand, for God is with us [Immanuel]!”(1 kings 8:5-10)

The Gospel writer Matthew showed that Isaiah’s prophecy was completely fulfilled in Jesus.

Some have claimed that by applying the name Immanuel to Jesus, the Bible teaches that Jesus is God. However, by this
logic the young man Elihu, who
comforted and corrected Job,
was also God. Why? His name
means “My God Is He.”
Eliʹathah means “God Has
Come”;. Jehu means “Jehovah Is He”

Jesus never claimed to be God, but he did reflect his Father’s personality perfectly, and he fulfilled all of God’s promises regarding the Messiah.
The name Immanuel well describes Jesus’ role as the Messianic Seed, a descendant of David, the one who proves that God is with those who worship Him.

Remember what the angle told mary , she shall give birth to Gods son, not God himself.

The verse does not support trinity.

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

And his name shall be called "mighty God”

Jesus is also a mighty God. This does not mean that he usurps or equals the authority and position of Jehovah, who is “God our Father.”
2 cor 1:2
"Grace be to you and peace
from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ
Phil 2:6
“He [Jesus] . . . gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.”

Another translation state it thus:
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be
grasped.

He is called Mighty God, not Almighty God. Jesus never thought of himself as God Almighty, for he spoke of his Father as “the only true God,” that is, the only God who should be worshiped.

Further, the designation
“god” carries an additional
implication. Judges in Israel
were called “gods”—once by
Jesus himself.

Ps 82:6
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you
are all sons of the Most High.'

John 10:35
"And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered.
So if those people who received God's message were
called 'gods,

Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed Judge, “destined to judge the living and the dead.”
2 Tim 4:1
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:

John 5:30
[b]By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.[b]

Clearly, jesus is well named
Mighty God.

But he is not almighty God and not equal to almighty God.
Gen 17:1
[b]When Aʹbram was 99 years
old, Jehovah appeared to Aʹbram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless.

And when Abram was ninety
years old and nine, the LORD
appeared to Abram, and said
unto him, I am the Almighty
God; walk before me, and be
thou perfect.

And as hebrew 1:9 helps us to know, that though jesus is a God, he has a superior God who annointed him and gave him power and authority.

Colossians 2:8-10 (KJV)
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

some translations render the bolded part as Deity, God's
nature, divine quality.
Not everyone offers the same interpretation. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colossians?
Did Christ have in himself something that is his because he is God, part of a Trinity?
Or is “the fullness” that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of
someone else?
Col 1:19 clears the air
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Another says : it was “by
God’s own choice.”

Consider the immediate context of Col 2:9. In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ “are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” and are urged to “live in him” and to be “rooted and built up in him and established in the faith.” (verse 3, 6, 7 ) It is in him, and not in the originators or the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious “fulness” dwells.

Was the apostle Paul there
saying that the “fulness” that
was in Christ made Christ
God himself? No. And definitely not according to where Christ is said to be “seated at the right hand of God.”
Col 3:1
[b]If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.[b]

Read this scripture : 2pet 1:4
And read this page:

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/colossians-2-9

Isaiah 43:10-11(KJV)
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

No almighty God except jehovah

Revelation 1:17 (KJV)
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 2:8 (KJV)
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Jesus is the first and and the last , but as the scripture has shown us , he is not the only one that that title is ascribed to. And it definitely does not mean that he is the same or equal to any other person that title is applied to. The reason for such title is already there in the verses.

To be continued .....

SisterSister:
[color=#550000] Regarding late reply; no worries, as time permit.

The Holy Spirit not being mentioned specifically in this instance does not say what you want it to say; nor does it change him where the scriptures do speak of him. Jehovah is not mentioned in every single verse of the Bible, nor is Jesus, nor is the Holy Spirit. This does not take away from who they are.

What I'm telling you is that in the whole of the scriptures , nowhere is it mentioned that the holy spirit, the father and jesus are one God. Neither is there any mention that the three are equal. Trinity is based on derived analogy, an attempt to twist the understanding of different scriptures to arrive at a false doctrine. When the Egyptians practised this 3 in 1 thing, God told them not to follow their ways, that he is just one God, one almighty God, not one person in 3 person God.

[qoute]Regarding John 10:29-31, the gospels and what Jesus said, it is plain for all who have eyes to see. I have read over each of your replies and clearly we are coming from two different points. A lot of this is just going around and around. There is so much more to each point covered. This discussion now requires more and only God can give it.[/quote]Do you agree that the Jews mis understood jesus , that jesus did not call himself God? That he called himself Gods son which he repeated to them during his accusation?

I've used the context sorrounding the event in john chapter 10 to explain to you what jesus meant by I and the father are one and why the Jews wanted to kill him.
Do you agree with my points or have a different understanding of john 10:29-31.

I previously asked, "What is the context of the above scripture you shared?" which is not below. What is the context of this scripture John 14:6? I don’t want to know your view on the scripture or what you think it says, what is this scripture about?

John 14:6 (KJV)
Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Thomas asked a question about the way, and jesus showed him the way. Way to what? Way to the father!

Jesus Is the Only Way to
Salvation
Jesus’ words to his faithful apostles, spoken just a few hours before his death, was In
response to Thomas’ question
about Jesus’ statement concerning going away and
preparing a place for them,
Jesus said: “I am the way and
the truth and the life. No one
comes to the Father except
through me.”
Jesus was then speaking to the 11 faithful apostles. He promised them a place in heaven

In what sense is Jesus “the
way”?
Jesus Christ is “the way.” That is, he is the only one through whom it is possible for us to approach God. This is true in the matter of prayer, for only by praying through Jesus do we have the assurance that the
Father will give us whatever we
may request in harmony with His will.
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I
chose you and appointed you
so that you might go and bear
fruit--fruit that will last--and so
that whatever you ask in my
name the Father will give you.

However, Jesus is “the way” also in a further sense. Sin has alienated mankind from God.
Jesus gave “his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” As a result, the Bible explains: “The blood of Jesus . . . cleanses us from all sin.” The Son has thus opened up the way of reconciliation with God.
Romans 5:8-10
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

It is by putting faith in Jesus and obeying him that we can have an approved relationship with God.(john 3:36)

How is Jesus “the truth”?
Jesus is “the truth” not only
because he always spoke and
lived the truth but also because all the prophecies written about the Messiah, scores of them, were fulfilled in him. “No matter how many the promises of God are,” wrote the apostle Paul, “they have become Yes by means of him.” (2 cor 1:20 )

* you can read from verse 19 to 21 to know who is God according to paul.
To benefit from the fulfillment of what God has purposed for us, we need to follow the Messiah.

In what sense is Jesus “the
life”?
Jesus is “the life” because he
has bought the human race with his lifeblood, and everlasting life is a gift that God gives “by Christ Jesus our Lord.” (romans 6:23)

Now to verse 7.
"If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”

Does this verse mean that jesus is the father ? No.
Does it say that jesus is God? No.
Does it mean that jesus is equal to the father? No.

Jesus’ following explanation shows that this was so because he faithfully represented his Father, spoke
the Father’s words, and did the
Father’s works.
John 14:10,12
10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is
doing his work.
12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
compare with john 12:28 ,45-49.
It was on this same occasion, the night of his death, that Jesus said to these very disciples: “The Father is greater than I am.”(john 14:20)

John 6:45,46
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me.
Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father..

John, after jesus Christ ascension, exaltation and being glorified said .
John 1:18
No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him

1 john 4:12-15
No one has seen
God at any time.(jesus is not God as people saw him) If we continue loving one another, God remains in us(just as God was in jesus) and his love is made perfect in us. By this we know that we are remaining in union with him and he in union with us, because he has given
his spirit to us.(can you see how the holy spirit is being described here?) In addition, we ourselves have seen and are bearing witness that the Father has sent his Son as Savior of the world. Whoever acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God.

To be continued.........

SisterSister:
Christians do not say, nor believe that Jesus is equal to the Father.
You are the one saying that Christians say this and it is false.

What!!!.
It seems you do not even understand the trinity, or maybe you have your own definition of trinity. But according to those who formulated the word and its doctrine, jesus is equal to the father.

I have never on these thread said that christians say that jesus is equal to the father.
Some who claim to be christians believe such doctrine.

The Word says that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one.

I have never read any passage in the scriptures in which the word you said above are recorded.

This does not mean what you want it to mean, it means what God says that it means.

Yes, you re right.

Ok, you omitted Deuteronomy 18 from your response.

Yep, did it deliberately

John 1:44-47 does not read what your response says it does. I would like to ask you to please read it again?

It says that Philip found Nathanael and said to him, we have found him, of whom Moses in the law and the prophets did write about. Who is the one the Philip is speaking of? Jesus of Nazareth.

True, Moses was a prophet. Also true, Jesus was more than a prophet.

The question now is , what did moses write about jesus?
Did moses call jesus almighty God? No
Did he say it was almighty God that is going to be sent ? No.

From Acts 3:22-26:
All the prophets from Samuel and those after, and as many that have spoken (for Jehovah) have likewise foretold these days. What days does the scripture speak of? Who are the children of the prophets and the covenant which God made with Abraham? How through Abraham’s seed is all on the earth blessed? Who did God raise to bless and turn everyone away from iniquities?

The difference is clear and understood between Jehovah and Jesus. It is just from the outside looking in, others cannot comprehend it.

Did any of the prophets call jesus almighty God ? No.
Did God raise himself? No,
He raised his servant jesus Christ .
Acts 3:26
When God raised up his
servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning
each of you from your wicked
ways."

1. John 6:38, John 12:49, John 17:1-3, 1 Corinthians 8:6 are speaking of Jesus when he was here on earth doing what God the Father sent him to do…save mankind.

-Jesus came to do the will of the Father.
-Jesus is the Word of God and speaks what God says.
-Jesus speaks to the Father as the hour of his crucifixion is near.
-There is one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we in him. One Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him.

Good.
Now where was jesus when he was sent? When he was given commands? Heaven or earth? If it was heaven, it shows jesus was obedient while he was in heaven.
And when he went back to heaven nko, did he stop doing the will of the father.? No.
God continued to use jesus to pass messages to mankind.

2. I apologize; it is not possible for me to post nearly all chapters from the New and Old Testament of the Bible on this thread. It is much easier for one to read the entire Bible, so that whatever thoughts one might have can be measured up against what God’s word says about Him and who He is. Wouldn’t you agree?

Yes.

The verses shared do not make up the whole entire content of the Bible. Jehovah, the Father, I Am is God. The Word of God, the Son, Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. There is nothing that can be added because God says it all through His word.

God never said the above through his word. The word, jesus said what is needed for mankind , and part of it is recorded in john, the verses that tells you jesus relationship with God. Yet you feel jesus said them because he was on earth.

If I'm to understand you well, you are saying that the father is the only true God cus jesus is on earth. Or that jesus said so to point us to the father(his purpose on earth)
Now the question is, is jesus just telling us this cus he is on earth or is he really telling us that the father is the only true God?
Are you saying that the father will not be the only true God when jesus goes back to heaven?
Its is always good to listen to what jesus said , not to base what he said only on where he said it.
I dnt know if you can tell us if the father will continue to be the only true God when jesus went back to heaven and when the holy spirit was omitted from these statement.

God reveals to us in the Bible who He is and we do not have a say in who God is. The word trinity is not found in the Bible but a triune God is clearly revealed and supported throughout the Bible.

And do you see what God has revealed himself to be in the scriptures. Not as trinity , but as one. Not one in 3 or 3 in one , but as supreme God who commands the loyalty of other spirit creatures. He gives the command and they loyally obey him, even till death. Jesus lives because of the father!

Binb:
Ok you tell us who do they worship

Have you asked the person that posted those verses ? If not , go ask him first .

@ SisterSister

Continued.

This is not the only verse that speaks to the deity of Jesus Christ, the others should not be ignored. It is clear in Hebrews 1:9, God is speaking to Jesus as you rightly said. It is God who formed the flesh that Jesus came to earth in but Jesus remains the 2nd in the trinity; Jesus is the Son/ the Word of God. Yes, Jesus is God. From just this reading, I would say the companions are the saints (more to this). Jesus was anointed to go through the suffering of the crucifixion.

You keep showing trinity to be false with your explanations.
God was talking to jesus and yet you say jesus is that same God.
Why is it hard to accept that heb 1:8,9 is talking about 2 Gods, and indicated that one is. Superior to the other. One is anointed by the other, and one is exalted by another above its companions.
Does the almighty God have companions ? No
Does the father have companions? No
Does jesus have companions ? Yes .
Does jesus have a God!? Yes
Therefore jesus is not the almighty God.

The word was with God.

Jesus giving the disciples power and authority is not the same as God coming in the flesh.

The scriptures never said or implied that the almighty God came in the flesh, and I never said that jesus coming in the flesh is the same as giving the disciples power. Look at what I said again:

"That Jesus gave the disciples
power and authority does not
mean that the disciples where
equal to Jesus despite doing
the powerful things that Jesus
did like healing the sick, casting out demons, raising
the dead etc. Likewise that the
father gave Jesus power and
authority does not make
Jesus equal to the father!."

Now I'm I right or wrong?

The difference, Jesus was already in heaven and came down willingly, dwelt among us and went to the cross to pay our debt of sin.

Jesus was sent by God,was made flesh by God, accomplished his mission, went back to the presence of his God.
Remember jesus last statements when he was about to die!

There is no relationship between the power given to Jesus and that of the disciples per se.

Let's see if you are right!

Who gave jesus the holy spirit and power.
Acts 10:38
"How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


Can you see from the above the person who gave jesus the holy spirit and power.?

Now who gave the apostles holy spirit and power?

Acts 2:17,33
17 “‘And in the last days it
shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your
daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall
dream dreams
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and
having received of the Father
the promise of the Holy Spirit,
he has poured forth this, which you now see and hear.

Can you now see the relationship between the power giving to jesus and the power giving to the disciples?
All came from one source, the father! Which shows that the father is the almighty God.!

Jesus has power as the Word of God but in his earthly ministry Jesus followed God’s plan to save mankind because that is what He came to do.

Jesus Christ himself said he has been giving all authority and power. He did not have it before, someone gave it to him.
If you say jesus left that power in heaven then it nullifies the belief that jesus is fully God on earth!
Does the almighty God follows someone else plan ? No , therefore jesus who followed the plan of the father is not the almighty God.

Everything comes from Jehovah God through His Word, who is Jesus Christ.

Everything comes from who ? Jehovah.

Through whom? Jesus
Jesus is not jehovah, jesus is not almighty God.

Positionally, the Father sent Jesus to save us, and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide and keep us, etc. Jesus prayed to the Father while he was on earth, in humanity on many occasions; even for us, but do you find an example after Jesus’ earthly ministry? John 17:2, 6-8,11-13, is only part. There are many other scriptures that must be included here.

The father sent jesus, the father gave the holy spirit through jesus to those who the father has given to jesus . All this is done to the glory of who? God, the father!

Jesus prayed for himself and for us while on earth, the reasons for each prayer is inherent in the content of each prayer. He prayed for a reason, and that reason is there in each prayer, when he was weighed down, made a request or taught us how to pray.
Now does he need to pray for himself and us when he went back to heaven?
1. Jesus is at Gods right Hand, if he wants something or need to make a request he could ask God there and then.
2. Jesus does not need to pray for himself cus he has been giving all authority and power.
He could carry out his commission without needing to request from God the authority or power to do so.
3. He has requested for us the holy spirit that will help, guide and teach us. He has been exalted to a position where we can now use his name to approach God on our own. He now serves our mediator. We have the word of God which is the bible.

So tell me, what does jesus need to pray for like he did when he was on earth.
So if jesus did not pray in heaven , it simply means there was no need for him to pray.
There was reasons behind jesus prayers , it was not for show.
Does jesus not praying in heaven means he is now equal to God almighty? No.
In heaven, jesus is not God almighty. He will have brothers, he will still do Gods will, sits not on Gods throne , but on the right hand side, he is still being sent to deliver messages as he still has that name, word of God. Most importantly, he is still subjected to God the father who subjected all things under him, who gave him a name, power and authority.

I have read the scriptures quoted, a better question is did you read them all?
Again, auto means self, like in an autobiography which is noted to be an account of a person’s life written by that person.

If you had read the scriptures, you will see That none supports the trinity when its being explained.

The Greek prefix auto- means “self.” Good examples using the prefix auto- include automotive and autopilot. An easy way to remember that the prefix auto- means “self” is through the word autobiography, or the history of a person which is written by that person her"self."
Source: http://membean.com/wrotds/auto-self
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/auto
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=auto-

Strong's Concordance
autos: (1) self (emphatic) (2)
he, she, it (used for the third pers. pron.) (3) the same

Original Word: αὐτός, αὐτή,
αὐτό

Part of Speech: Personal
Pronoun

Transliteration: autos

Phonetic Spelling: (ow-tos')

Short Definition: he, she, it, they, them, same

Definition: he, she, it, they, them, same.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
an intensive pronoun, a prim.
word

Definition
(1) self (emphatic) (2) he, she,
it (used for the third pers.
pron.) (3) the same

http://biblehub.com/greek/846.htm

Referencing John 14:25-27, I don’t feel, God words clearly shows it is so.

John 16:6-7 (KJV)
But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Please, I hope you will or have studied with an exhaustive concordance to look up all of the scriptures that speak of the Holy Spirit in the Bible? That would be awesome! [/color]

Who gave us the holy spirit ?

John 14: 25- 26
25 “All this I have spoken
while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit,
whom the Father will send in
my name, will teach you all
things and will remind you of
everything I have said to you.

And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they
should not depart from
Jerusalem, but wait for the
promise of the Father,
which, said he, you have
heard of me.

Remember , God promised he will pour out his spirit.

SisterSister:
[color=#000099] Just because you said the scriptures never said or implied does not mean it is actually the case. From your perspective you feel the analogy is wrong or false but it’s just an analogy, an aid. I had originally shared that this is a spiritual truth and the analogy was shared as a glimpse of how the trinity could be somewhat grasped but it does in no way explain in full detail or in depth all of who God is. This is something I just cannot do for you. In accepting Jesus Christ and receiving spiritual life, God who is Spirit will reveal himself to a person’s born-again spirit.

It is a very dangerous thing to do. To use an analogy one can think of to explain a doctrine that the scriptures does not teach about. Following such methods can alter what the. Scriptures is telling us.

The site is speaking on topic and implying what it is not meant to say may be an issue. You may not agree with what is being said, and sometimes it’s just that way.

in my own case, I see what the website is trying to say as false. They try to use philosophy to tell us who God is, while the scriptures has already done that. They manipulate and analyse statements In the scriptures to mean something else other than what it means. This is wrong. No where in the scriptures did the writers indicate that God is a trinity, either 1 in 3,3 in 1 or 1 divided by 3. Some verses they quoted have been shown to be false words added by those who wanted to perpetuate the trinity doctrine.

If I take parts of the scripture, I too will end in error. The whole word of God must be taken into account, meaning the Bible in its entirety.
My dear, we are covering the same subject matter.

Take parts , half or whole, the theme of the bible is about the sovereign authority of God, the father.

See, you shared the verse we discussed which does speak of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, which is 1 John 5:8.

But, if you read it in context which includes verses 7-10, the understanding in clearer:

1 John 5:7-10 (KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

*** Verse 8 in the above says that the 3 bear WITNESS in the EARTH and those 3 are…the Spirit, the water and the blood and these 3 agree in one which is true.

***What does verse 7 read? There are 3 that bear RECORD in HEAVEN, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost; and these 3 are 1.

I only used part of the translation you believe in to ask you a question. A question you have not answered .
The question was :
* taking from the kjv(which has been shown to be spurious)
"And there are three that bear
witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. .Is the water and blood persons too? Cus here they bear witness.
If not, then the spirit bearing
withness cannot be used as a
basis to call the holy spirit a
person.

Even from these false texts, can you now see how its more of manipulation than analysis?

If you believe that the 3 that bear withness in heaven mean those 3 are equal, do you believe the equality of those that bear withness on earth?
The verses does not mention equality among those that bear withness so why do you use these to support trinity.
Can you see the problems this false doctrine has created.

Does the verse say the 3 are God? No.
Does the verse say the three are equal? No.
Is the verse present in most translations of the scriptures? No

The scripture below shares that the Holy Spirit is a He:

John 14:25-26 (KJV)
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26-27 (KJV)
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Does using "he" for the holy spirit implies that the holy spirit is a person ? No

The greek word translated to "he" is ekeinos.
ekeinos: that one (or neut.
that thing), often intensified
by the art. preceding

Part of Speech: Demonstrative
Pronoun

Short Definition: that, that one
there, yonder

Definition: that, that one there,
yonder.

NASB Translation
once* (3), one (4), other (1),
these (1), this (2), those (35),
those things (1), very (1), what
(1).


#1565: ekeinos
(pronounced ek-i'-nos)
from 1563; that one (or (neuter)
thing); often intensified by the
article prefixed:--he, it, the other
(same), selfsame, that (same,
very), X their, X them, they, this,
those. See also 3778.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
ekeinos
1) he, she it, etc.
Part of Speech: pronoun
Relation: from G1563

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G1565/ekeinos.htm

Personification does not prove
personality. It is true that Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper” and spoke of such helper as ‘teaching,’ ‘bearing witness,’ ‘giving evidence,’ ‘guiding,’ ‘speaking,’ ‘hearing,’ and ‘receiving.’ In so doing, the original Greek shows Jesus at times applying the masculine personal pronoun to that “helper” (paraclete).
However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in proverbs chapter 8 and feminine pronominal forms are
used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT)
Wisdom is also personified at
Matt 11: 19 and Luke 7:,35
where it is depicted as having
both “works” and “children.”

The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” -rom 5:14,17,21 ; 6:12

He speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’- rom 7:8-11.
Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
So, likewise with John’s account of Jesus’ words regarding the holy spirit, his remarks must be taken in context. Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the
masculine substantive
pa·raʹkle·tos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns.
On the other hand, in the same
context, when the Greek
pneuʹma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun to refer to the holy spirit, pneuʹma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with pa·raʹkle·tos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.

The holy spirit lacks personal identification. Since God himself is a Spirit and is holy and since all his faithful angelic sons are spirits and are holy, it is evident that if the “holy spirit” were a person, there should reasonably be given some means in the Scriptures to distinguish and identify such spirit person from all these other ‘holy spirits.’ It would be expected that, at the very least, the definite article would be used
with it in all cases where it is not called “God’s holy spirit” or is not modified by some similar expression. This would at least distinguish it as THE Holy Spirit.
But, on the contrary, in a large
number of cases the expression “holy spirit” appears in the original Greek without the article, thus indicating its lack of personality.

The holy spirit does not have a name.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (KJV)
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Romans 8:15-16 (KJV)
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Texts in the scripture says that people were “filled” with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or “anointed” with it.

Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit..

Matt 3:11
"I baptize you with water for
repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire..

Acts 10:38
[b]about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was
with him.

These references to holy spirit
definitely do not fit a person.
To understand what the Bible
as a whole teaches, all these
texts must be considered.
What is the reasonable
conclusion? That the first
texts cited here employ a
figure of speech personifying
God’s holy spirit, his active
force, as the Bible also
personifies wisdom, sin,
death, water, and blood.
The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father—Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.

Stephen was given a vision of
heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy
spirit.

Read this page:
http://trinity-exposed..co.ke/2006/10/holy-spirit.html?m=1

You did not comment on the numerous of scriptures that reads Jesus is the Son of God?

John 9:35-37 (KJV)
Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

John 6:37-39 (KJV)
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:17-18 (KJV)
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 1:1-2, 14 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Colossians 2:8-10 (KJV)
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Hebrews 1:2-4 (KJV)
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

It may be helpful to read the book of Colossians and the book of Hebrew, if you have not already.

And after reading all these verses, did you see any that indicated that jesus is the almighty God? No.

Did any of the verse indicate that jesus is equal to the father? No

Did any of the verses indicate that jesus was commanded by someone else? Yes

Did any of the verses indicate that jesus receives inheritance like a child receives inheritance from the older person? Yes.

Did the verses tell us that jesus was the only begotten of the father?

Did the verses tell us that jesus is the most high or majesty on high ? No

What did the scriptures say about that?
Answer: it says jesus sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high.

Did he just sit there by his own will? No, he was instructed to sit there by God .

To be continued...

aob2882:
وَقَالُوا لَنْ يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَنْ كَانَ هُودًا أَوْ نَصَارَىٰ

تِلْكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمْ

قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

بَلَىٰ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَجْهَهُ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحْسِنٌ فَلَهُ أَجْرُهُ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِ

وَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ لَيْسَتِ النَّصَارَىٰ عَلَىٰ شَيْءٍ وَقَالَتِ النَّصَارَىٰ

لَيْسَتِ الْيَهُودُ عَلَىٰ شَيْءٍ وَهُمْ يَتْلُونَ الْكِتَابَ

كَذَٰلِكَ قَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ مِثْلَ قَوْلِهِمْ

فَاللَّهُ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فِيمَا كَانُوا فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ

"And they say that no one shall ever enter Paradise unless he is a Jew, or a Christian. These are their fancies. Say, "Bring your proof, if you are truthful." Of course, whosoever submits his self to Allah and is good in deeds has his reward with his Lord, and there shall be no fear for such men, nor shall they grieve. And the Jews say: "The Christians stand on nothing" and the Christians say, "The Jews stand on nothing" -- and they both read the Book! Similarly, those who do not know say as they (the Jews and the Christians) do. So Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they used to dispute." (2:111-113)

You did't believe in Quran as a divine revelation from Our creator (including Jesus Christ) that is the reason am quoting from your Book (Bible).

You are quoting from the bible words you dnt believe in. You are using scriptures you dnt believe in to surpport a mode of worship you believe in.

You are more concerned about how they worship than who they worship. I bow for you.
Physical procedures have taken over u guys. No wonder you all do the same thing while washing up and while praying .

@ SisterSister

You said, "Here we know that Jesus represents the father, he does the fathers instructions, he gives the fathers messages , he learnt from the father perfectly. So Jesus did exactly as his father wanted him to do and in that way, if you see Jesus, you have seen the father cus Jesus is a perfect representation of the father. But Jesus is not the father.
Remember what God told Moses in Deut 18:18

" I will raise them up a Prophet
from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him".

Christians to not believe that Jesus is the Father, as this was clearly stated in earlier discussions.

And christians should not also also believe that jesus is equal to the father.

* the whole of deut 18 is ommited from my reply.

Other verses in the Bible referring to Deuteronomy 18 is:

John 1:44-47 (KJV)
Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

These verse confirms Gods promise to moses. God did sent to the isrealites a prophet like moses. Moses is a prophet , a messenger and one who serves God. Likewise jesus.

Acts 3:22-26 (KJV)
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 [b]Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, [/b]sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Hope with this, you can now understand the difference between God and jesus.
Jesus is not the almighty God.

One cannot use a verse to support while ignoring other verses that reveals more. Error is certain.

You are right

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father who
sent me, he gave me a
commandment, what I should
say, and what I should speak.
That is why Jesus is the word of God.

John 17:1-3
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast
given him power over all flesh,
that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Actually, you have divided scripture because there are so many other verses that you have totally ignored, and there lies the danger.

1. What do you understand by the scriptures quoted above, share ur views on each of them.
2 . Can you post the verses I've ignored so that we can examine them?

Jehovah God begins in Genesis revealing who He is and continues through the book of Revelation. God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as revealed in scriptures and the three are one. The 4 scriptures you shared immediately above all say what God means for them to say in His context; it is not according to your context. [/color]

If you can't see from the numerous verses quoted so far that God is not jesus, father and holy spirit, that the father is the only true God as mentioned by jesus, then there is Little that I can add.

The scriptures never supported the trinity nor even mentioned it. Jesus does not have equality with the father, nor is he the almighty God.

Ill like to apologise for replying late.

SisterSister:
[color=#550000]
Jesus was sent to earth by God for a purpose but Jesus was in heaven with God first, "In the beginningy was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God, as in John 1:1…this is very clear.

That is an undisputed fact. But that is not what we are discussing.
*the holy spirit is not mentioned here.

If Jesus was not saying that he was God, then why did the Jews mentioned in John 10:29-31, pick up stones AGAIN to stone Jesus?

First, there is no gospel account of that incident in which it is recorded that jesus said he was God.
Secondly , when jesus was replying them on their accusations in the earlier verses you mentioned ,what did he say? .
Let's look at the scriptures again
John 10: 34-36
Jesus answered them, “Is it
not written in your Law, ‘I have
said you are “gods” ’ d ? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and
Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

Do you notice what jesus said he told them? . He repeated what he told them, that he is Gods son not God himself.
They misunderstood his earlier statements just as people who believe in the trinity do today .
Look at jesus words again

John 10: 25-30
Jesus answered, “I did tell
you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.

Jesus is telling us that the father is the one who owns and gave him the sheep. No one can take them away from the father , thus no one can take them away from the one the father gives the sheep. And the sheep will not be taken away from him because jesus and the father are one. One in unity and purpose. These was further explained and emphasized In john chapter 17
Notice that jesus specifically mentioned the father and not just God. This helps you to understand which God jesus is reffering to.
Notice jesus said it was the father that gave them to him and the father is greater than all(not God is greater than all). These is directly related to the statement : "the father is greater than I am".

So does those verses say jesus is God? No
Does it mention the trinity? No
Does it equate jesus with the father? No.
Let us not misunderstand jesus words like those that tried to stone him did, calling jesus a "mere man".
*the holy spirit is not mentioned here.

Who deserves worship? It is God. Would Jesus allow anyone to worship him if He were not God?

The issue of worship is a very controversial issue, and its dependent on how you translate the word used for worship. Cus it also can be translated as obesiance.
But notwithstanding, it was the father that directed such reverence to the son not that the son took it up by himself.

John 20:27-29 (KJV)
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Most translations add the exclamation mark after "God". These shows that it was an exclamation made out of surprise. There are some possible reasons why Thomas would have said these, but that jesus is the almighty God is not one of these reasons. why? Because jesus had told them on several occassions his relationship with the father and that what he has done, talked about and performed came about through the fathers command and power.
To further butress these points , jesus told mary, days before Thomas statement, to tell the disciples(Thomas inclusive the following :
John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
So its still a wonder when one claims Thomas(a Jew) exclamation surpports trinity.

Regarding Mark 10:7-8…husband and wife becoming one flesh.
We are not the standard, God is the standard. When a man and a woman have sex, this is how they become one flesh. It is a spiritual union. It can be a godly union or an ungodly union. If married, it is a godly union or spiritually soul-tie. If unmarried, it is ungodly and ungodly soul-tie. It does not mean that the husband and wife exists in one body, nor do they have the same role. You do not set limits for God, nor do mankind. God sets limits for us. God’s nature is not our nature, why does it seem you are stuck on trying to make God fit into what you think He should be? And, yes, Jesus is loyal and completed all that He was to do on earth, then returned to heaven but it does not take away who the scriptures clearly show Him to be.

That a husband and wife should become one flesh was made by jesus, so the issue of man or Gods standard should not have been mentioned. Is becoming one flesh only talking about only sexual relationship between them.? No. Cus if its true they are only one when they have sex and are not one when they dnt, and that a man can still be one with any woman he has sex with, godly or ungodly.

So what does being one as expressed by jesus mean?
Let us read the verses again
Mark 10:6-9
6 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ 7 ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his
wife, 8 and the two shall
become one flesh.’ So they
are no longer two but one
flesh. 9 What therefore God
has joined together, let not
man separate.”

Can you see that jesus is talking about the marriage union between husband and wife and not about sex . It is that union that makes them one and not sex . That union gives them a unity of purpose and responsibility that transcends their physical world, but it does not make them equal in that union.

You did not apply your view to jesus statement that he and the father are one. What do you understand by that statement.?
Are you saying that jesus is equal to the father?
Remember jesus words about his own will.
*note: jesus did not mention he is one with the holy spirit.

John 17:21… I do understand. Your comments seem to reflect only on the physical. And, yes there is a physical unity and unity in agreement, etc., but there is also a spiritual unity that is shared among believers in Jesus Christ. Jesus wants them to be one, as He and the Father are. It is more being said here.

I'm also reffering to that spiritual unity. Does that unity between the disciples, jesus and the father make them equal? No. Therefore that scripture does not surpport the trinity view that jesus and the father are equal.!

The Holy Spirit is not sent to us until Jesus leaves the earth. The Holy Spirit should arrive on the scene in the book of Acts.

But the holy spirit was active on earth while jesus was on earth.

John 14:6 (KJV)
Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

What is the context of the above scripture you shared?

I'm confused, is that scripture part of my post or you just want me to tell you my view on it?

John 5:19-20,30,37,46.
19 Then answered Jesus and
said unto them, Verily, verily, I
say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for
whatsoever things he does,
these also does the Son
likewise.
20 For the Father loves the
Son, and [/b]shows him all things that he himself does: and he will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
30 I can of my own self do
nothing: as I hear, I judge: and
my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who has sent me.
37 And the Father himself, who
has sent me, has borne
witness of me. You have
neither heard his voice at any
time, nor seen his form.
46 For had you believed Moses, you would have
believed me: for he wrote of
me."

What is the context of the above scripture you shared?

Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath day and the religious leaders started persecuting him, thus he responded with those words quoted there. Those words shows who gave him the authority and power he uses to perform such acts. That he does not do anything by his own will shows that jesus is subjected to the will of the one who gave him the authority and power.
The leaders do not understand how God is the father of jesus as they know him as the son of Joseph and mary, and jesus wanted them to use his works and miracles as a determinant of whose son he is.

[quote]No, Jesus is not the Father, this is not what is being said or implied in any way. Yes, the Father sent Jesus to save mankind from eternal spiritual death but it does not change anything that God says in the word about Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God made flesh. Though, the scripture is plan but it seems to me you want to make it read differently than what is throughout the entire Bible and focus on verses that share partial while ignoring another portion of scripture, why? The only way to get the full meaning of what God wants to reveal is to read the Bible in its entirety. Slowly over time or as an intense Bible study…God will honor all seekers of truth.

You can start by quoting about five of those scriptures that says jesus is Almighty God or he is equal to the father.
The scriptures has shown in its entirety the following.
The father is greater than jesus.
The father sent jesus.
The father decides how things are to be done.
Jesus is a messenger.
Jesus is subjected to the father.
Jesus does the fathers will at all times either on earth or in heaven.
Jesus is not equal to the father.

To be continued........

Jolliano:
1. Lol. It is Jesus that founded the Catholic Church. Pastor Charles Taze Russell formed. the JW. If you have a problem with the early Christians being Catholics, then you should complain to God who made it so.

I asked a simple question, let's not digress even we dnt want to answer.
The church with political Affliation and power, a church that romanced with the rulers of the present system of things is not practised by the early christians, nor founded by jesus.

And 1 Peter 1:3 does not in anyway contradict the Trinity. Of course, God is the Father Of Jesus (God the Son in his divine nature) and God of Jesus(Son of Man in his human nature).

?!
What part of my post is this reply based on.
This brings out the issue, why can't you seperate and quote the particular statement of mine you are responding to, like I do urs. Its easier and better so that everyone can follow the discussion, and know what you are responding to.

Jesus called God his God and His Father because He had a human nature as well as a divine nature.

So jesus in wateva format you put him, had a God!
He also mentioned who that God is, who incidentally is the one that gave him all the power and authority and things and words he did on earth. He did not do anything except what the father told him to do.
Pls tell, using the scriptures, what his divine nature on earth was and what that nature did on earth.?
Second question, according to your doctrine, is the father still jesus' God and superior to jesus now?

2. Explaining The Bolded Parts. Remember that it was a vision. Not a narration of how it would directly happen.

Mary was pregnant. It's normal that John would see her crying in pain. Remember Gen 3:16.

1. John knew who mary was and how she looked like, john did not say the woman is mary.
2.mary was pregnant! , who got her pregnant. Remember this vision started with the woman in heaven and not on earth!
So when mary got to heaven, she got pregnant again?! And by whom?

"A great sign appeared in
heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 she was pregnant and cried out in
pain as she was about to
give birth.

Did mary give birth to jesus in heaven or on earth as you are trying to imply below?

So in ur reply pls tell us.
A. Who got mary pregnant again.
B. If that pregnancy is in heaven or earth.

She gave birth to Jesus. The one who is to rule with an Iron scepter. Rev 19:15 - 16.

Rev 1:1
The revelation from Jesus
Christ, which God gave him to show his servants [u]what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Is a sign as shown to john in the vision something that happened in the past or that will happen in the future cus as at the time of this revelation jesus already in heaven?. In fact he was the one revealing through an angel this revelation giving to him by his God.
Was jesus now born again by mary, first on earth and then in heaven? So mary had birth pangs a second time in heaven for jesus?
I thought you said mary was not born with sin.? Automatically meaning she is perfect and thus jehovahs proclamation on eve and child bearing does not apply to her. How come you are now mixing everything up!
If you reply, pls do not ommit any of my questions.

When the dragon was thrown down to earth, he pursued the WOMAN who had given birth to the Male Child.
Why did the dragon pursue her? To destroy her. How? By causing a separation between her and God her strength.
Did he do this? He tried and he got the first Eve but he could not get Mary the second Eve. Rev 12:14 - She was given two wings......

First, Mary was not the second eve.
They are both women like every other women.
They both had children like every woman is supposed to.
That eve married the first adam and mary gave birth to the last adam does not mean mary is the second eve.
All the actions of jesus was arranged by the father and mary had no hand in it after jesus birth. So her presence as at the time jesus was killed is just because of the fact that she gave birth to him. Something any other good woman at that time will do. If she was not present, it would not have lessened or changes the effect and importance of the event.

Secondly, when did mary come back to earth again ? That she was now being pursued on earth?

The rest of her children, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.
Mary is the mother of all Christians based on this verse, the "Behold thy mother" on the Cross and some other linked verses.[/b]
Jesus was handling the care of his mother to a beloved and trusted disciple. Even at death, he took care of his responsibility as a man and as the first born!
And that is why john took her home!

[quote]3. Ark of strength.
This is why reading in context is correct and drawing out verses will always be wrong.
Psalm 132: 6 - 8: The Ark of the Covenant is what is called the Ark of God's strength.

Simple question :is Mary the ark of God's strength?

4. I have already shown from the bible how Mary is the Queen Mother because Jesus is the King.[/b]
You have shown from the bible how you arrived at that title for mary, I have shown you from the scriptures Gods view of that title, position and authority.
The position and title was giving by Solomon, and we saw the end result of it.
The scriptures made other mentions of women who bore such title and it did was not in a good light. The scriptura deliberately mentioned such women in relation to such title to show you its view on it and that it was not a divine arrangement.
God sanctioned a king for isreal and even anointed them, but not a queen mother.
In God arrangement of headship, the woman does not hold any authority over the man.
This arrangement is ever present both in the mosaic and instructions giving to christians. So I dnt know why you are elevating mary to a position and title that does not have jehovahs blessings or approval. A title that was created by a human and shown to have bad bad consequences .
Remember what Jeremiah said, they have abandoned God, that is why they have a queen of heaven.

[quote]If someone else bore a title given to him/her by a different set of people, does that mean all who bear the title are the same.

Absolutely not, I'm just showing you where you got that title from. It did not originate with God. Gods position on mary's level on authority had been made clear in the event that happened immediately after she got pregnant and Married. The moment she got married , all divine correspondence on jesus was with Joseph and no longer with mary, to support the divine approved arrangement that a man is the head of the woman.!
God, jesus , the disciples, the angels never gave mary that human title or position, you guys should not have done so!

Jesus' title, King of kings, was used for the pagan Nebuchadnezzer. "You, O King, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,..." (Daniel 2:37).

But Jesus is still called The King of Kings. Does it make the authors of the bible or Christians pagans for using that title?

Can you not see it!?
Can you not see that jesus was giving such title!?
Can you not see that he has divine right to such title?
Can you not see that to avoid confusion and infusion like the case of the queen mother, jesus title/position where mentioned several times in the scriptures?
Do you not see the reasons accompanying those titles.?
Does this not show you that it is wrong to give a title to someone that is not divinely recommended and such title is not mentioned with such person?
You are doing what the scriptures has shown in bad light.!

5. The image of Mary is not part of worship. We only worship God especially in the Eucharist.

It is used as a reminder of events. Same as all other christian arts.

So the words written down about mary where not good enough for you to use to remember mary abi!
Did those images tell you who she is or the things she did?

I look at the real picture of azikwe and it does not tell me the things I need to know in other to hold the guy in high position.
The use of images to remember important people is a practise long used by the pagans, and you can't find such use by christians who lived during the time of the apostles.! These pagan idea creeped into the state church.

The isrealites did not remember their prophets with images, the disciples did not do it, but the pagans did it!

We did not see any form but we know they were humans and so we paint them with the human form we know they had. Same as those in the Catacombs.

So you decided to formulate a false face for mary to remember mary. If you bring a picture of any woman and tell me to use that picture to remember my mom, I no go gree, and neither will you. Or will you!?

We have similar physical features with God made flesh, Jesus. And our souls are also made in his image.

Jesus was made like us, that's the reason for the physical features. You claim the holy spirit is God too. Pls tell what form the holy spirit had, and if humans are made in such form too. Pls dnt fail to do so.

Secondly, how is our soul made in jesus image? Pls use scripture.

6. Images kept away from the people? What about those in the temple?
The images and designs Solomon put in the temple in 1 Kings 6, were they directly instructed by God? No!

Did God accept to be in the temple? Yes!

So your talk of direct oral or written command is not even applied in the bible.

1. Be specific, which images are you reffering to that can be seen by the people.
2. God does not reside in man made structures.
Acts 7:48,49
“However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says: “ ‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me? says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?

3.everything Solomon did in relation to the building of the temple, was done by divine instruction, he did not add his own.
1 kings 6
"the eleventh year in the month of Bul, the eighth month, the temple was finished in all its details according to its specifications. He had spent seven years building it.

1 chr 28:11,12
" Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries
thereof, and of the upper
chambers thereof, and of the
inner parlours thereof, and of
the place of the mercy seat,
And the pattern of all that he
had by the spirit, of the courts
of the house of the LORD, and
of all the chambers round
about, of the treasuries of the
house of God, and of the
treasuries of the dedicated
things:.....
All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.

Even the format for the services in the temple was written down. So that nobody can come in the future and say he/she has divine influence/oral tradition and forcefully change things and create new images.

@ jolliano

Jesus brothers.

Brothers of Jesus. The four Gospels, the Acts of Apostles, and two of Paul’s letters mention “the Lord’s brothers,” “the brother of the Lord,” “his brothers,” “his sisters,” naming four of the “brothers”: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.
Mt 12:46; 13:55, 56;
Mr 3:31;
Lu 8:19;
Joh 2:12;
Ac 1:14;
1Co 9:5;
Ga 1:19.

The majority of Bible scholars accept the cumulative evidence that Jesus had at least four brothers and two sisters and that all were offspring of Joseph and Mary by natural means after the miraculous birth of Jesus.
The arbitrary notions that these brothers of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former marriage, or by levirate marriage with Joseph’s sister-in-law, must be classified as fictitious, since there is no factual confirmation or even a suggestion to this effect in the Scriptures. The claim that “brother” (a·del·phosʹ) here means “cousin” (a·ne·psi·osʹ) is a theoretical contention, the
invention of which is credited to Jerome, and dates back no
earlier than 383 C.E. Not only does Jerome fail to cite any
support for his newborn hypothesis but in later writings he wavers in his opinions and
even expresses misgivings about his “cousin theory.”
J. B. Lightfoot states that “St
Jerome pleaded no traditional
authority for his theory, and that therefore the evidence in its favour is to be sought in
Scripture alone. I have examined the scriptural evidence, and the . . . combination of difficulties . . . more than counterbalances these secondary arguments in
its favour, and in fact must lead to its rejection.”—St. Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, London, 1874, p. 258.

In the Greek Scriptures where
the account involved a nephew
or cousin, a·del·phosʹ is not
used. Rather, the relationship is explained, as “the son of Paul’s sister” or “Mark the cousin [a·ne·psi·osʹ] of Barnabas.”
Ac 23:16;
Col 4:10

In Luke 21:16 the Greek words syg·ge·nonʹ (relatives, such as cousins) and a·del·phonʹ (brothers) both occur, showing that the terms are not used loosely or indiscriminately in the Greek Scriptures.

When, during Jesus’ ministry,
“his brothers were, in fact, not
exercising faith in him,” this
would certainly rule out their
being his brothers in a spiritual
sense.
Joh 7:3-5

Jesus contrasted these fleshly brothers with his disciples,
,who believed in him and who were his spiritual brothers.
Mt 12:46-50;
Mr 3:31-35;
Lu 8:19-21.

This lack of faith on the part of his fleshly brothers prohibits identifying them with apostles of the same names: James, Simon, Judas; they are explicitly distinguished from Jesus’ disciples.— . Joh 2:12

The relationship these fleshly brothers of Jesus had with his mother Mary also indicates they were her children rather than more distant relatives. They are usually mentioned in association with her.

Statements to the effect that Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn”
(Lu 2:7) , and that Joseph “had
no intercourse with her until she gave birth to a son,” also support the view that Joseph and Mary had other children.(Mt 1:25)

Even Nazarene neighbors
recognized and identified Jesus as “the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon,” adding, “And his sisters are here with us, are they not?”— .
Mr 6:3

After Jesus’ resurrection his
fleshly brothers changed their
doubting attitude, for they were present with their mother and the apostles when assembled for prayer after Jesus’ ascension.
This suggests that they
were present also at the
outpouring of the holy spirit on
the day of Pentecost.

@ jolliano

5. CATACOMB IMAGES.
Visit the link below
churchpop.com/2015/03/13/8-of-the-oldest-images-of-the-blessed-virgin-mary

A statement from that webpage reads:

"Just like we don’t know what Jesus looked like, we don’t know what His mother Mary looked like either."

So the question is , how did you now get the pictures and images of mary and jesus. Did they just formulate one and you adopted it?

Not counting the many, many imagesthat people claim were painted by St. Luke, the earliest image we have of Mary is from the 2nd century, and you can’t exactly make out the details of her face (see the first image below).
In any case, it’s still fascinating to see how Christians depicted Mary in the first few centuries of the faith. Pay attention to who she’s almost always depicted with…
Enjoy!
1) Madonna and Child in the Catacombs – 2nd century
via histo ryofinformation.com
Located in the Catacomb of Priscilla in Rome, Mary appears to be nursing the infant Jesus on her lap. It is dated to around A.D. 150.
[See also: 13 Beautiful Non-White Depictions of the Blessed Virgin Mary]

(* represents my view)
* this picture was constructed 150 years after the event occured . The early disciples and apostles did not know about it, did not do it nor subscribe to it.

2) Madonna and Child With the Magi Bringing Him Gifts – 3rd century
Giovanni Dall’Orto / Wikimedia Commons
This is a picture of a cast of a sarcophagus that is in the Vatican museums. It shows the scene of the magi adoring the Christ child, who is held by his mother Mary. It is dated to the 3rd century.
3) Protectress of the Roman People – 5th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
The oldest and most important image of Our Lady in Rome, legend has it that it was one of the many icons painted by St. Luke, though historians date its original composition to the 5th century.
4) Madonna and Child Enthroned Among the Angels and Saints – 6th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
This image can be found at St. Catherine’s Monastery near Mt. Sinai and is dated to the 6th century. Around Mary and Jesus are St. Theodor of Amasea, St. George, and two angels. Notice also the hand at the top of the image (God the Father?).
[See also: 31 Beautiful Paintings of Mary Nursing the Baby Jesus]
5) A Nativity Icon – 7th century
via pravmir.com
This is another icon found at the monastery at Mt. Sinai, and it is dated to the 7th century.
6) Agiosoritissa (Mother of God) – 7th century
via communio.stblogs.org
Originally from Constantinople, this 7th century icon is currently kept at the Santa Maria del Rosario a Monte Mario in Rome.
7) Cover of Copy of the Gospels – 8th-9th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
This is the ivory cover of a copy of the Gospelscreated in Germany in the late 8th and early 9th century.
[See also: 7 Church Fathers on that Profound Insight of Mary as the New Eve]
Madonna and Child Icon – 9th century
Public Domain / Wikimedia Commons
This icon is currently kept in the Art Museum of Georgia (the country), and is dated to the 9th century.

* all these images are images formulated by the state church and its adherents.

The disciples did not bring up or make up any images or pictures of mary. They did not use the image in any veneration or part of worship to God. They where very careful as the scriptures warned.

10. "James in Gal 1:19 is called brother of the Lord but we all know that James the apostle was not his brother. Same as those written in Acts.
that is why you where specifically told that this James is the lords(jesus) brother. not James the disciple."

this is a grave contradiction.

The 12 disciples became the 12 Apostles. This James was a disciple that became an apostle that is being called the Lord's brother. So James the apostle was James the disciple.

There are only two James. James, the brother of John also calle James the greater. and James, son of Alphaeus/Clopas also called Brother of Jesus and James the younger.
"among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56)
This means the James in Matthew is James the younger. This is the same James the Apostle in Gal 1:19. The same person whom Jude said is his brother in Jude 1:1. Note Jude was one of the twelve.

1st james
James, Son of Zebedee; brother of John and one of the 12 apostles of Jesus Christ. His mother, it seems, was Salome, as may be noted by comparing two accounts of the same event.
One mentions “the mother of the sons of Zebedee,” the other calls her “Salome.”
Matt 27:55,56
Mark 15 :40,41

The next year, 31 C.E., when
Jesus designated 12 of his
disciples to be apostles, James was one of the group selected.
Mark 3:13-19
Luke 6:12-16
James is always mentioned along with his brother John, and in the majority of instances he is mentioned
first. This may indicate he was
the older of the two.

James evidently died in 44 C.E.
Herod Agrippa I had him
executed with the sword. He was the first of the 12 apostles to die as a martyr.

second james
Another apostle of Jesus
Christ and son of Alphaeus.

Matt 10:2,3:
"The names of the 12 apostles are these: First, Simon, the one called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebʹe·dee and John his brother; Philip and Bar·tholʹo·mew; Thomas and
Matthew the tax collector;
James the son of Al·phaeʹus;

Mark 3:18
Luke 6:15

Acts 1:13:
"When they arrived, they went
up into the upper room where
they were staying. There were
Peter as well as John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bar·tholʹo·mew and Matthew, James the son of Al·phaeʹus, and Simon the zealous one, and Judas the son of James."

It is generally believed and
quite probable that Alphaeus
was the same person as Clopas, in which event James’ mother was Mary, the same Mary that was “the mother of James the Less and of Joses.” john 19:25
Mark 15;40

He may have been called James the Less because of being either smaller in physical stature or younger in age than the other apostle James, the son of Zebedee.

3rd james
James, Son of Joseph and Mary, and half brother of Jesus.

Mark 6:3
Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't
this Mary's son and the
brother of James, Joseph,
Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
These later sons of Mary explain why Jesus was called her “firstborn son” (Matthew 1:25
Luke 2:7:
"and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

The attempts by some to make these cousins and not brothers of Jesus are ill-advised attempts to deny scripture. (to be examined in my next post)

Gal 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the. Lord's brother

Although not an apostle, it
was evidently this James who
was an overseer of the Christian congregation at Jerusalem.
Acts 12:17
"Peter motioned with his hand for them to be quiet and described how the Lord had
brought him out of prison. “Tell
James and the other brothers
and sisters about this,” he said, and then he left for another place.

He may have been next to Jesus in age, being the first named of Mary’s four natural-born sons: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.

It appears that during Jesus’
ministry James was well
acquainted with his brother’s
activity, but though apparently not opposed, he was not one of the disciples and followers of Christ.
Luke 8:19
"Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.

John 2:12
"After this he and his mother and his brothers and his disciples went down to
Ca·perʹna·um, but they did not
stay there many days.

Matt 12:46-60

He was probably with his nonbelieving brothers when they urged Jesus to go boldly up to the Festival of Tabernacles, at a time when the rulers of the Jews were seeking to kill him.

However, after the death of
Jesus and prior to Pentecost
33 C.E., James was assembled
for prayer together with his
mother, brothers, and the
apostles in an upper chamber in Jerusalem.
Acts 1:13,14
" When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying.
Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. 14 They all joined together constantly in
prayer, along with the women
and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

It was evidently to this James that the resurrected Jesus appeared personally, so convincing this onetime nonbeliever that He was indeed the Messiah. This reminds us of Jesus’ personal appearance to Paul.

"After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. But last of all he appeared also to me as if to one born prematurely."

Thereafter James became a
prominent member and,
apparently, an “apostle” of the
Jerusalem congregation.

Thus, at Paul’s first visit with the Jerusalem brothers (about 36 C.E.), he says he spent 15 days with Peter but “saw no one else of the apostles, only James the brother
of the Lord.”
Peter, after his miraculous release from prison, instructed the brothers at John Mark’s home, “Report these things to James and the brothers,” thereby indicating James’ prominence.

That it was this ‘brother of Jesus’ who wrote the book of James, and not one of the apostles by the same name (either the son of Zebedee or the son of Alphaeus), seems to be indicated at the beginning of his letter. There the writer identifies himself as “a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,” rather than as an apostle. In a similar fashion his brother Judas (Jude)
also identified himself as “a slave of Jesus Christ, but a brother of James.”

My next post will be a re- examination of the word "brother".

Jolliano:
1. Calling disciples is not a miracle or a glorious deed. All rabbis and teachers called disciples. Even John the baptist had disciples.
turning water into wine is a miracle and a glorious deed.

Glorious. Deed:
Something that is glorious is very beautiful and impressive. (=magnificent)
If you describe something as glorious, you are emphasizing that it is wonderful and it makes you feel very happy.

You might view jesus turning water into wine as his first glorious deed cus of your need to glorify mary, but his disciples knew better

John 1:47
47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
48 “How do you know me?”
Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you
while you were still under the
fig tree before Philip called
you.”
49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”
50 Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree.
You will see greater things
than that.”

A glorious thing happened there in the disciples selection, cus that formed the basis of christianity as this disciples played a vital role in the spread of the good news. I'm appreciative of these glorious deed or actions done by jesus.
Through the actions of jesus during the selection of his disciples, he could say these to his father "As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.".
Jesus turning water into wine was the first sign or miracle through which jesus revealed his glory, but it was not his first glorious deed!. Glorious deeds is not being defined or neccessary accompanied by miracles.
You compare jesus selection of his disciples to other teachers selection of disciples, but you ommit their miracles and signs, why?

In addition ill repeat what I said earlier:

"now if Mary did not tell Jesus
what to do, why do you compare her to Eve who gave
Adam the fruit. Again I tell you,
all that Jesus christ did was
from his father and Mary had no hand in it. Mary did what every other upright woman bringin up a child would have done."

2. Mary brought forth the person who undid what Adam did. Very similar to how Eve brought Adam to the tree. Just as eve was present at the tree where Adam sinned, Mary was present at the Cross where Jesus undid it.
Stop arguing against what i didn't say.

Mary did so because she was favoured to do so. Can't you see that after jesus birth, everything or message from God that had to do with jesus survival as a child was done through the man, the father Joseph? This is in line with Gods arrangement of family and Christian headship. You are trying to change Gods arrangement through the elevation of mary.

All these explanations is not needed, what I'm asking is who is the woman that God was talking about in Gen 3: 15-17:?

"And I will cause hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her
offspring.
He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.”
16 Then he said to the woman,
“I will sharpen the pain of
your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth.
And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.

Pls tell us with an explanation of the bolded parts.

. Bros, if Eve belived that eating the fruit would kill her, would she have eaten it? She disbelieved God and believed the devil. The disbelief led to disobedience.

She was punished for disobedience!
A lot of people commit fornication today knowing fully well that Gods purnishment will come on them. They did not disbelief gods word, yet they still break it.

Mary is a seed of eve.

4. Adamic covenant = Gen 1:27 - 30
27 So God created man in his image; in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number, fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the sky, over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 God said, "I have given you every seed-bearing plant which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree that bears fruit with seed. It will be for your food.
30 To every wild animal, to every bird of the sky, to everything that creeps along the ground, to everything that has the breath of life, I give every green plant for food." So it was.Adam was the first man. Eve was created to be his companion and was to be the one to bring forth the children. Adam cannot increase by himself na, can he?
Eve carried the covenant(the children). Which is why she was the ark.

Yep you are right, and eve stopped having children when she broke the covenant just as the isrealites stopped receiving blessings right?
And all women are arks cus they all have the ability to carry offsprings.

The ability to carry the mans seed after conception was giving to all women, a mother could have a son cus she has the same human makeup as eve. It is Gods arrangement and it does not mean that eve was the ark.
As the ark and the covenant, including its rules and laws was for all isrealites , so also was the ability to spread and fill the earth for man and woman, not for woman alone and definitely not for eve alone. To use these gift given to women to mean eve was the ark is wrong. The scriptures never said so.
Remember, eve was created from adam!

5. CATACOMB IMAGES.
Visit the link below
churchpop.com/2015/03/13/8-of-the-oldest-images-of-the-blessed-virgin-mary

Ill reply these in my next post.[/quote]6. how is the typology flawed?
St. Paul gave this typology in Romans 5:14 - 21. Jesus is the second and new adam. Typology shows similarities and contrasts. I already said this before. You are arguing against what i did not say. I never said Jesus is the same as Adam or that Mary is the same as Eve.[/quote]The similarities between jesus and adam is fully explained and supported by the scriptures. The reasons for the similarities are giving in the context. Your derived topology does not follow scriptural arrangements, neither does the scripture support ur views outside the fact that some similar events happened. There are a lot of similar events in the scriptures. Using them the way you do to elevate mary will totally distort what the scriptures is saying.

7. Disobedience and not irreverence or lack of respect? Seriously? How do you disobey and claim to respect at the same time?

you can disobey and respect someone at the same time. Mishark and abednego did it.

When God told Moses to take off his sandal cause he was on holy ground, why did God make that statement?
Because the ground was holy and was to be respected and reverenced. So if Moses had not taken off his sandal, would it have just been disobedience or disobedience by disrespecting and irreverencing the holy ground?

You just supported my view with the bold. If the instruction has not been giving,moses would not have been purnished if he wore his sandals despite that place being a holy ground. So if the instruction was not giving and moses had worn his sandals into the holy ground, would he have shown irrelevance and disrespect to the holy ground ? The issue of disrespect would not have been mentioned.

8.
A.So how do you honour ur biological mother, that is different from how u honour her spiritually
B.how do you honor ur mother spiritually.
C.how is Mary your mother.( remember, the woman in rev 12 is not mary, and before you start saying we are jesus brothers, remember what jesus said about who is brothers and mothers where)

Answers to these questions are simple.
Firstly, Mary is the WOMAN in Rev 12. That one is clear. If you think it isn't, give your own name of who the woman is.
Honouring her is done in different ways. One of which is calling her the way the angel did "KECHARITOMENE" or in english "Full Of Grace". Another is fulfilling the biblical prophecy in Luke 1:48 "..... people forever will call me blessed" by calling her Blessed Virgin Mary.
If you say you are a christian but not a brother of Jesus, then you are not sure of what you are.

You have seen that you stylishly refused to answer any of the questions but tried to focus on ur view of Mary.
First, ill tell you who that woman in rev 12 is when you answer the 3 questions I asked you on rev 12.
Second, I've shown you that mary was not everly a virgin, as she had other children, both male and female. Other peoples children would not have been moving with mary so frequently mentioned in the scriptures if she had not been their biological mother. They would have been with their own mother, afterall they did not believe in jesus untill after his ressurection.

Thirdly, mary is highly favoured as the scriptures tell me and ill call her "mary, a woman blessed by God"

8. Bros, to, unto, till and until when used to represent time (especially in the bible) do not mean that something different occured after.

It means that the event or situation changed the moment after the reason for it remaining constant got fufilled. That Joseph did not know his wife until his wife gave birth means that the situation changed after his wife gave birth and thus then knew his wife. God allows sexual relationship between husband and wife, and Joseph and marys marriage was not an exception, neither was there any instruction for them not to enjoy sexual relations with each other. So dnt formulate one for them.

The question I asked about jesus sitting at the right hand of God untill his enemies have been put under his feet has not been answered by you

Bringing up the issue of giving birth after her ressurection is extremely funny and irrelevant to the subject matter.

You are the one who asked if she could give birth after death

9. Greek is the not the language of Israel, Hebrew is. In Hebrew, they for more than 1000 years (from Abraham to Jesus) have been calling all kinsmen "BROTHERS". After greek came in, they all continued in the same way. They kept calling kinsmen brother(Adelphos). They did not switch to a greek method of describing family.
Same way an ibo man would save himself stress and call anyone from his hometown "My Brother" or "Nwannem" instead of "He is the son of my grandfather's elder brother's first son."

The new testament scriptures was written in greek and there is a greek work for cousin. If those brothers where cousins, the writers of the greek scriptures would have used the greek word for cousin.
For example a yoruba man knows the word "oju" can refer to both face and eye. The context determines which is which. But I'd that yoruba man is going to write in English, he will use his knowledge or concept to determine which is which and write it down accordingly. He will not continue to always write down eye when the context is reffering to face!

Now is there an example of these when it comes to brothers and cousins?
Did the Jews who wrote the scriptures used the greek word for cousin?

Col 4:10
My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of
Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.)

Even the writer of Luke used the greek word for relative when refering to mary and elizabeth.

So they knew these greek words and knew when to use then, but at no time was it used for jesus half brothers. This shows they where actually jesus real half brothers who where (in most cases in was mentioned) always with their real mother , mary , who is also the real mother of jesus.

10. "James in Gal 1:19 is called brother of the Lord but we all know that James the apostle was not his brother. Same as those written in Acts.
that is why you where specifically told that this James is the lords(jesus) brother. not James the disciple."

this is a grave contradiction.

The 12 disciples became the 12 Apostles. This James was a disciple that became an apostle that is being called the Lord's brother. So James the apostle was James the disciple.

There are only two James. James, the brother of John also calle James the greater. and James, son of Alphaeus/Clopas also called Brother of Jesus and James the younger.
"among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56)
This means the James in Matthew is James the younger. This is the same James the Apostle in Gal 1:19. The same person whom Jude said is his brother in Jude 1:1. Note Jude was one of the twelve.

For space purpose, I'm going to reply to this in My next post.

11. Mary was saved before she was born. Jesus kept her from sin and so she was and is sinless by the Grace of God. "FULL OF GRACE" in a past perfect participle.

Mary was not born in sin. She was saved and sanctified before birth.

Before you say it is Catholic tradition, read the quotes from the protestant reformers on Mary:
servantofchrist.tripod.com/beholdthymother/id20.html

12. IN GREEK "KECHARITOMENE".

From Charitoo which means grace. Do a break down of the words used to make KECHARITOMENE and see if it means "FULL OF GRACE" or not. Biblehub will always include commentaries by Modern Protestants and reject Catholic ones. Do your research.

At bold , pls explain how you can be saved before birth.

Greek word charitoo:
Definition
1. to make graceful
a. charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with
favour
3. to honour with blessings
...........................

to give graciously, to show acts of kindness by freely giving; (n.) one highly favored; see also {5921}
Definition: to favor, visit with favor, to make an object of favor, to gift,, Eph. 1:6;
pass. to be visited with free favor, be an object of gracious visitation, Lk. 1:28*

https://billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/charitoo
.......................


χαριτόω charitóō, khar-ee-to'-o; from G5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:—make accepted, be highly favoured.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5487
............................
Some Translations that used favoured in Luke 1:26

1.New International Version
2.New Living Translation
3.English Standard Version
4.Berean Study Bible
5.Berean Literal Bible
6.New American Standard Bible
7.King James Bible
8.Holman Christian Standard Bible
9.International Standard Version
10.GOD'S WORD® Translation
11.New American Standard 1977
12. King James 2000 Bible
13.American King James Version
14.American Standard Version
15.Darby Bible Translation
16.English Revised Version
17.Webster's Bible Translation
18.weymouth New Testament
19.World English Bible
20.Young's Literal Translation

Does the angel greeting mary with " full of grace" mean she was born perfect without sin? . The scriptures never said so nor implied so.

Mary is not perfect, she did not understand the greeting.!
Luke 1:29
"Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might
be."

The angel now told her what the greeting meant
Luke 1:30
But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

Mary was now told what that favor is
Luke 1:31-33
You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be
great and will be called the Son of the Most High...........

There is no mention in the scriptures that mary had the same conception that jesus had and jesus had to be concieved that way so as to not to allow the seed of adam (an imperfect sinful seed) to be passed on to jesus.

Mary is from adam and thus inherited sin from birth. The scriptures does not indicate otherwise and ur use of derived analogy does not mean mary was without sin.

Romans 3: 21-24 totally shows the doctrine that mary is without sin as false.

”But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets
testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that
came by Christ Jesus.

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

Mary called God her savior , a man without sin does not need a savior.
There is no other way at which mankind can be saved except through jesus ransom sacrifice. Therfore mary could not have been born without sin before jesus ransome sacrifice.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John 1:8-10)
This same words apply to mary

rubi96:
No Escape..... kai that movie gave me heart attack. No movie has done that to me in a long while.

how I go allow film give me hypertension, I just kukuma go watch the end immediately after that swimming pool incident, then come back come watch the film from the beginning. but this time with a calm heart.
that film build's tension in u in a gentle an subtle manner, you wunt even know when ur heartbeat Don change tempo.

Jolliano:
Firstly, God's name is YAHWEH and not Jehovah.

1. how did you arrive at that?
2.does your translation use that name?

1. The beginning.
Yes. Jesus as the Word and God existed before creation. The two beginnings are the same.

the bold says it all, the word and the earth do not have the same beginning.

If you say that Genesis is the beginning of Creation, then John is the beginning of God. And God has no beginning.

is genesis not talking about the beginning of the creation of the heaven's and earth.?
The word is the one being said to have a beginning, it was with God! The verse did not say God had a beginning.
moreover, you have not told us what you understand by "in the beginning".

Like I always say. In context,there is a union in both beginnings. Verses 2 and 3 of John 1 shows this clearly.

and you have refused to share that knowledge with us here.

2. The Trinity.
Oh! So now all examples must come from the BIBLE. Wow! Okay!

You are still using singular individual and disconnected verses. Do a bible study. Show us a connection from the bible not just different verses that you like and want to twist.

I use the bible, I quote from the scriptures words and sentences that are directly related to what is being discussed. I do not use derived analogy, I tell you as the scripture says it.
You have not given a different, straightforward explanation on most of the scriptures I quoted.

you do not have one single example in the scriptures to show you that Jesus, the father and holy spirit come together to form God, that is why you us any trilogy based example outside the scriptures.

NOTE: Jesus did not say in the name of the Father and the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Spirit. But "In the name of the father, and of the Son and of The Holy Spirit".

He says, ‘in the name’, not ‘in the names’, to show the unity of essence; but by adding three names, he indicates that there are three persons.

simply tell us what that name is! and how u use it to babtize.
can you see what I'm saying about derived analogy? you now inscribe "unity of essence cus you view they have one name. This is what the lack of example to surpport a doctrine can cause.

Once again, the OR mentality comes up. You rightly believe just as Catholic do that there is one God. But you think it is either Yahweh or Jesus.
The mentality that Jesus and his apostles uses is an AND mentality.
Jesus says "I AND the Father are one" - John 10:30.

agreed, Jesus and the father are one(jesus excluded the holy spirit). so is jesus the same person as the father ? The answer is no!. so in what way is jesus one with the father.
Jesus is one with the father in purpose, to do the will of the Father.
does this mean jesus is equal to the father? no!.
how do we know this? jesus said "the father is greater than I am" John 14:28
he told us he was sent by the father. John 17:3
he told us that the father is the only true God . John 17: 3
he told us that he was giving power and authority, to show that he did not have it before.
He told us that he only does what the father tells him to do.
And he finally told Mary that the father is his God .
We also know that the almighty God does not have companions!

can being one with the father still bring him to a position of being equal to the father?no
cus for these to be true one has to accept that the disciples will also be equal with the father in the future, when they share in the divine nature!
John 17:21-22
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;…

these are just a few of the scriptures that can be quoted to show you that Jesus is not equal to the father, neither is he the almighty God.

you Ave not said anything on the scriptures I quoted earlier.

You say Jesus is a god meaning a lesser God than God the Father. You seem to think that Jesus is a lesser God but that is unbiblical.

heb 1:8-9
8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Jesus was anointed, Jesus was exalted, Jesus was giving a name, Jesus was told to sit at God's right side, Jesus was sent as a messenger, and yet you say he is equal to his God!

For we know that "God" (singular) created the heavens and the earth. - Gen 1:1.

And we also know that "God" said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

Since there can only be one Creator or "God" then the "us" in Gen 1:26 must refer to the Persons of the Holy Trinity (co-equal and co-eternal).
If the "us" in Gen 1:26 were other gods (lesser gods). Then why does God in Exodus 20:2-3 say:"I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me.

jehovah, the father is our God. He is also the God of Jesus. He is the almighty God, the supreme being. We have no other almighty God apart from him.
The word "us" does not mean 3, and it does not mean they are equal.
as to creation, pls read proverbs 8: 22-31.

1 cor 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Jesus Followers = The early christians.

Quote one early christian who taught or wrote against Trinity

the apostle Peter.
1 peter 1:3.

Jolliano:
1. I have. Still seeing the same things the Early Christians saw in it.

by early christians , you mean ur church right!?

rev 12
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 she was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” a And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against[b] the rest of her offspring[/b]—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

pls explain the bolded parts, the ones you omitted from ur summary.

2. Quoting it completely doesn't change its meaning.

is Mary the ark of God's strength?

3. Even if all queen mothers were bad in character, it doesn't destroy or condemn the office.
Jesus is the New Adam doesn't Jesus committed the same sins or any sin at all.

the scriptures has shown you his own view of the title and authority of the Queen Mother, a title not anointed or ordained by God. you now want to force such title on Mary, something she nor jesus ever told you to do.

The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger.

Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, 16 “We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”
19 The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”
20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, 21 “Did not the LORD remember and call to mind the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your ancestors, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? 22 When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became a curse and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. 23 Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the LORD and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see.”

4. The full commandment is in Deut 4:15-20
15 “Therefore watch yourselves very carefully. Since you
saw no form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 beware lest you act corruptly by making a carved image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air,
18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth.
19 And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the LORD your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.
20 But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of his own inheritance, as you are this day."

In context, worshiping anything other than God is idolatry. Don't build images and worship them. Not don't build images at all.

is the use of the image of Mary part of ur worship or just a personal thing?
is the image blessed?
If the answers are yes, then you are breaking that law, cus you did not see any form! so dnt make any unistructed form!
do not make on ur own any Image!

You forget that we are all images made by God.

dnt twist the scriptures. do we have similar physical features like God?

4. When the early christians were making these carvings and images, there was no bible. So this was how they remembered those who had gone before them.

pls show us one of such carvings or images.

Images are of two types (Statues which are carved and pictures which are painted,drawn or snapped). They are all the same.

Some are 3 dimensional while others are 2 dimensional.

Some are geometrical and some are plane.

this difference doesn't change the fact that they are images.

good, but dnt make one as part of ur worship or religious rites to God.
take an example from the isrealites who heeded the words of Deut 4: 15 and watched themselves very carefully. They did not make the image of moses, who was very very very important to them as part of their worship to God. all the images they made for worship was as a direct and recorded instruction from God. moreover those images where kept in a place where they (the general populace) cannot see them.

Jolliano:
PART 2:

1. Turning water to wine is a miracle and you want to compare it with calling disciples?

2. Firstly, your arguments show that you know nothing about typology and I'm suprised because it was used a lot by Jesus and the Apostles in the NT.

not talking about topology bro, you said Mary pushed jesus to his first glorious deed
now did Jesus do any glorious deed before turning water into wine? e.g the selection of his disciples. is that a glorious deed or just an ordinary deed? and turning water unto wine at a wedding is more glorious.

Jesus said God gave him his brothers.

Read Revelations 12 again.

you gave a wrong summary of rev 12 and deliberately omitted some few things.

3. Again, TYPOLOGY. Which woman's seed(Child) crushed the head of Satan? This one is too obvious for you to try arguing against.

Bro, answering a question with a question will get us knowhere. just tell me you dnt want to answer the question and ill not ask you again. and if you feel you want to answer, pls do so in ur next reply. dnt forget to quote the verse.

4. I never said Mary told Jesus what to do. The First Eve and First Adam sinned on a tree. The Second Adam undid it on a wooden Cross(Tree of Life) and the Second Eve was there beside him.

now if Mary did not tell jesus what to do, why do you compare her to Eve who gave Adam the fruit. Again I tell you, all that Jesus christ did was from his father and Mary had no hand in it. Mary did what every other upright woman bringin up a child would have done.

5. Believing the devil means Disbelieving God. She could not have believed both of them at the same time, could she?
Or did she still believe God and obeyed devil at the same?

again, I tell you, there sin was for disobedience, not disbelief.

6. You have never heard of the Adamic or Edenic covenant? With all the bible you are quoting here! Read Genesis 1 and 2.
God had a covenant with all humans which was carried and represented by Eve and Adam. That is why all humans share in the sin and punishment which occur as a result of the broken covenant.

who is talking about an adamic covenant here? but since you mentioned it, pls tell, what and where is the ark of the Adamic covenant since you say all covenant has ark.

7.

A. Irrelevant question. Jesus is the new Adam according to the bible. Did Jesus marry and have children like Adam?

good, can you now see where your topology is flawed?. Jesus is not the old Adam, Jesus is a new Adam, but not because of similarity in features or words. likewise Mary and the ark, it is flawed cus God did not dwell in the ark and God does not dwell in houses made by man, and Mary did not give us any covenant and neither was any covenant agreed on between Mary and God.

B. Again, irrelevant question. The point is not touching but defiling and irreverence. The ark was attached with poles for the Priests to carry it with. That was reverence. Knowing that arrangement, doing something else would be irreverence.

Ill tell you they where punished for disobedience ,not for lack of respect or reverence!

C. "Honour your father and mother". Physically? Yes. Spiritually? Yes.

A.So how do you honour ur biological mother, that is different from how u honour her spiritually
B.how do you honor ur mother spiritually.
C.how is Mary your mother.( remember, the woman in rev 12 is not mary, and before you start saying we are jesus brothers, remember what jesus said about who is brothers and mothers where)

D. Irrelevant question. Did God instruct you to snap a picture of anyone? Images and statues are used to remember people and events. I don't know how you think that God who gave us a brain and memory will be against us using them to remember ourselves.

did God instruct you to make an image of Mary? answer : NO.!
pictures are taken from the appearance of the real person, they are not venerated and the puctures are not used for religious purposes. all pictures, statues ,images, used for religious worship purpose in the scriptures are there by God's direct command and instructions.
reading about the activities of someone you have never met is better than having a picture of that same per son, and that is exactly what the disciples did. They wrote about Mary, not make a statue of her.

E. Firstly,we don't venerate Mary's image. We venerate Mary. I could use this argument against the bible but that is irrelevant.
We treat the image specially, yes. Because of who it represents. Would you throw a picture of a relative you love on the floor? Or would you keep it in a special place?

pictures of relatives I've not met goes into the achieves. but I've seen humans and pagan worshipers put the image of those they venerate in special places.

A major part of the veneration given to Jesus was not given to him during his lifetime on earth. Same for Mary. I don't see how that is a problem.

give me an example and we will look at it.

The early christians (without whom you would never have heard of Jesus, being a Christian or seen the bible and yet you chose to disregard and ignore) show all these things in their writings and their carvings and paintings in the Catacombs.

pls show me.

8. You seriously want to argue Theology with a dictionary?
Well, until, to and unto serve the same purpose. They show a range or period of time.
So "to the day of her death". What happened after her death? Did she have children? No.

Until, to and unto does not serve the same purpose.
"to" indicates direction, it does not have a time frame. she did not have a child till she died. full stop. looking or adding what happened to her after she died is a wrong understanding of that statement. and who is to say she wunderkind have a child if she is ressurected.

Jesus was always in heaven. Even when he came in human form, he was still in heaven. The Trinity cannot, has never and will never be seperated. You forget that God(The Trinity) is everywhere.

use the scriptures to explain or support the bold.
"Our father in heaven" jesus prayed!

So till,until,to and unto does not mean something different occured.

very wrong.

9. There were not brothers of Jesus or children of Mary.
Jesus and the apostles spoke Aramaic/Hebrew and in that language and there was no word for cousin or nephew. They would have to say "son of my father's brother" and to avoid that they simply said kinsman or brother. The disciples who wrote the bible wrote it with that sense and even Matthew wrote his Gospel in Aramaic/Hebrew.[/quote]pls tell us, in what language was the english gospel translated from? aramaic/Hebrew or greek.
where the gospels written originally by the original writers in Greek?
is there a word for cousin in Greek?
If there is,then why did the disciples not use the greek word for cousin when writing an original book in Greek.

James in Gal 1:19 is called brother of the Lord but we all know that James the apostle was not his brother. Same as those written in Acts.

that is why you where specifically told that this James is the lords(jesus) brother. not James the disciple.

Also, we know that James the younger’s mother was named Mary. Look at the descriptions of the women standing beneath the cross:
"among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56);
"There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome" (Mark 15:40).

are you trying to say that the Mary that wanted to see jesus was his aunty and not his mother?
This james(the younger) is not jesus half brother. The scripture told us who his father was. Jesus half brothers believed in Jesus only after his death.

Then look at what John says: "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene" (John 19:25). If we compare these parallel accounts of the scene of the crucifixion, we see that the mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas. So far, so good.

you are right, but not the mother of James and Joseph mentioned Earlier in Jesus hometown.
you are trying to merge 3 different james together.

An argument against this, though, is that James is elsewhere (Matt. 10:3) described as the son of Alphaeus, which would mean this Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. But Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas. Another possibility is that Alphaeus took a Greek name similar to his Jewish name, the way that Saul took the name Paul.

So it’s probable that James the younger is the son of Mary and Clopas. The second-century historian Hegesippus explains that Clopas was the brother of Joseph, the foster-father of Jesus. James would thus be Joseph’s nephew and a cousin of Jesus, who was Joseph’s foster son.

pls direct us to where you got this info from, especially that of
historian Hegesippus.
The 3 differ James have different parents.
Wat of Simon and Judas.

10. Sinlessness.
Mary like all humans was bound to fall into sin. But God saved her from grace from the very creation of her and so she has been sinless right from her creation, birth till now.

stop passing unbiblical information, you have done enough damage with her elivation, now you want to make her perfect from birth. An act that cannot be achieved by humans through any means except jesus. you are now saying she had achieved it before jesus was even born.
you saw had to happen before jesus had to be born perfect, maybe you have prove that Mary was born the same way.

Look at it this way.
A woman on a boat is carrying a baby in her arms and then she trips and throws the babies as she falls. If one baby land in the water and I jump into the water and bring the baby out, I saved the baby.
If I catch the baby before he falls into the water, I still saved the baby.

All fell into sin from birth thanks to Adam (Original sin). And Christ saved them by his Death.
Christ saved Mary from falling into the sin as Noble And Perfect Gate which he was to pass through. God cannot stay near sin. His eyes are too holy to behold sin.

So Mary was born in sin before she was saved by Jesus!

Angel Gabriel said "Hail, full of grace".
Full of Grace = Empty of Sin.

In fact, the angel said Kecharitomene, which is a past perfect participle.
This means:
Full of Grace in the past and forever(continuously) full of Grace.

luke 1:28
New International version
...... went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! [/b]The Lord is with you."
new American Standard Bible
.... "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
King James Bible
.....Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee:....


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
28. highly favoured—a word only once used elsewhere (Eph 1:6, "made accepted": compare Lu 1:30, "Thou hast found favour with God." The mistake of the Vulgate's rendering, "full of grace," has been taken abundant advantage of by the Romish Church. As the mother of our Lord, she was the most "blessed among women" in external distinction; [b]but let them listen to the Lord's own words. "Nay, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it." (See on [1537]Lu 11:27/b]

bencobenz:
Interesting! Any scripture reference to back this up?

Gen 5: 24
Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

(no mention of heaven)

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth -heb 11 :13.

Then Elijah the prophet wrote Jehoram this letter: "This is what the LORD, the God of your ancestor David, says: You have not followed the good example of your father, Jehoshaphat, or your grandfather King Asa of Judah- 2 chr 21:12

Jolliano:
1.So John and Genesis are talking about 2 beginnings. Wow? Can you tell me the difference between the two beginnings? And tell me which of the Apostles or Early Christians believed or taught this blasphemy you are spewing?

genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

These verse was talking about the creation of the heaven and the earth, therefore the part of the sentence " in the beginning" refers to the beginning of the heavens and earth, or more accurately to the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word

"the word here refers to jesus and these statement is saying that the word existed in the beginning.

now to compare the two verses
1. is the beginning in John the same as the beginning in genesis? no
2. did Jesus exist before the creation of the heaven and earth ? yes
3. did the heaven and earth exist at the same time with jesus? no
4. where there spirit creatures created prior to the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth?yes

therefore bro, the two beginnings are not the same. If you have a contrary view, pls tell us what you know about " in the beginning".

2.I don't quote completely because it would make it longer. That is why I put the verses of the bible for everyone to check the full sentence from the bible.

it's not that hard to copy and paste the verses, u dnt even have to type the whole verse, just Copley the statement or main part of the sentence if there is nothing to hide.

3. One God, 3 persons. Simple illustration is A candle. When you light a candle, you originally have fire. But the fire brings light and the light brings heat. You cannot seperate the fire from the light,the light from the heat or the heat from the fire. Though they look different, they are ONE.

The scriptures never taught us so, an attempt to use an example outside the scriptures shows that the trinity is man made and the scriptures does not support it.
without the fire there is no light or heat, so who is the fire among the three,? so we can know who created the other two!
dnt worry, the three will soon become million GOD'S in one God when humans share in the divine nature and [b]become one [/b]with jesus and the father.

Why did Jesus ask them to baptize in the name of The Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

What does it mean to be baptized “in the name of the Father”? It means that the baptismal candidate recognizes our heavenly Father’s office and authority. Jehovah God is thus acknowledged as our Creator, “the Most High over all the earth,” and the Universal Sovereign.—

ps 83:18King James Bible
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

isa 40: 28
American Standard Version
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard? The everlasting God, Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary; there is no searching of his understanding.

acts 4:28
King James Bible
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

Being baptized ‘in the name of the Son’ means what? To be baptized ‘in the name of the Son’ means to recognize Jesus’ office and authority as God’s only-begotten Son.
1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Those qualified for baptism accept Jesus as the one through whom God has provided “a ransom in exchange for many.”
1 ti 2: 5,6
King James Bible
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

read also matt 20:28
Baptismal candidates must also acknowledge the “superior position” to which God has exalted his Son.


Phil 2:8-11
And being found in fashion[b] as a man,[/b] he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: : That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord( not God), to the glory of God the Father.

read rev 19:16

What is signified by being baptized ‘in the name of the holy spirit’? This indicates that the baptismal candidates recognize that the holy spirit is Jehovah’s active force, used in various ways in harmony with his purpose. gen 1:2 , 2 Sam 23:1,2 , 2 Peter 1:21
Those qualifying for baptism acknowledge that the holy spirit helps them to understand “the deep things of God,” to carry on the Kingdom-preaching work, and to display the spirit’s fruitage of “love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.”

Jesus’ early followers drew clear distinctions between God, Christ, and the holy spirit. In fact, they baptized disciples (1) in the name of the Father, (2) in the name of the Son, and (3) in the name of the holy spirit, not in the name of a trinity.

He did not say names. He said name. That shows you that they are one.[/quoteso what is that name, and how do you baptize in that name.

bro, to speak or to act ‘in the name of’ another denoted doing so as a representative of that one.
ex 5:23
De 10:18, 18:5,7 19-22.
1 Sam 17:45.
Similarly, to receive a person in the name of someone would indicate a recognition of that one. Therefore, to ‘receive a prophet in the name of a prophet’ would signify receiving a prophet because of his being such. Matt 10:41.
And to baptize in “the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit” would mean in recognition of the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit.
When people come to an accurate knowledge of God and want to serve him, they are baptized “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” They understand and accept the authority of Jehovah and the role of Jesus Christ in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose. They also comprehend the function and activity of God’s holy spirit, which is his active force.

[quote]4. I never said Eve was created on the seventh day. The first time Adam saw Eve was on the Seventh day.

What day was eve created?

5. I didn't say Jesus referred to Mary everytime he said woman. I said Jesus referred to Mary as WOMAN which is suprising since she was his MOTHER.

It might be suprising to you, but not to those who know what jesus called the female specie and the position of Mary in God's, and not human fomulating arrangements

6. Your questions about REV 12, I have already answered.

pls direct me to where you answered the three questions.

Actually, you ought to restart. But continue if you want.

Elijah and enoch, like every imperfect human died .
Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, especially a body in sin cannot come to Gods presence.

The scriptures did not say Enoch was taken to heaven .
The scriptures states elijahs activity on earth long after he was taken in a whilwind. So the heaven mentioned there is therefore not the heaven where spirit creatures reside but that of the physical heaven where birds and flying creatures move in .

Another aspect to look at is why jesus came to die for us if there was already a means to enter heaven, gain perfection and live forever.

@ Jolliano

continued.......

From Rev 12, the dragon(devil) chased(tempted) her but he never caught her because she was given two wings of a great eagle (very symbolic of holiness and purity) to fly into the wilderness, into her place.
Ever wondered why the dragon could not follow her into the wilderness? She went to her place in heaven and the dragon cannot chase her there. So he comes to chase her children on earth.

You need to read rev 12 again .

Psalm 132:7 - 8 - "Arise, O LORD... You and Your Ark."

American Standard Version
Arise, O Jehovah, into thy
resting-place; Thou, and the
ark of thy strength.

Darby Bible Translation
Arise, Jehovah, into thy rest,
thou and the ark of thy
strength.

World english Bible
Arise, Yahweh, into your
resting place; you, and the ark
of your strength.


Dnt know why you omitted parts of the verse.

3. Mary as Queen.

Jesus was of Royal blood. A descendant of David. In the Davidic Kingdom(Kingdom of Israel), the queen was always the mother of the king and not the wife. All mention of Queens in Israel were Queen Mothers (Mother of the King).

You should have given us a scriptural example na.

Read luke 1:32. Jesus is The KING. And as a King from David's generation. The queen is His Mother, Mary. Rev 12:1 shows her with a crown of 12 stars. The same number as the tribes of Israel!

Read Psalm 45:9, 1 Kings 2: 19 and especially 2 Chron. 15:16.[/quote

Psalm 45:19
Daughters of kings are among
your honored women; at your
right hand is the royal bride in
gold of Ophir.

1 ki 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King
Solomon to speak to him for
Adonijah, the king stood up to
meet her, bowed down to her
and sat down on his throne.
He had a throne brought for
the king's mother, and she sat
down at his right hand.

2 chr 15:16
King Asa also deposed his
grandmother Maakah from her
position as queen mother,
because she had made a
repulsive image for the
worship of Asherah. Asa cut it
down, broke it up and burned
it in the Kidron Valley.

[quote]The Mother of The King is the Queen.

You see the beauty of Bible Study (Treating the bible as a whole) and not just taking one verse and giving it any meaning you like.

Now let's go back to those scriptures and see if the throne king Solomon established brought about good for the isrealites.

(1)2 chr 15:16
King Asa also deposed his
grandmother Maakah from her
position as queen mother,
because she had made a
repulsive image for the
worship of Asherah. Asa cut it
down, broke it up and burned
it in the Kidron Valley.

Was this queen mother good ? No.

(2)2 ki 10:13
he met some relatives of Ahaziah king of Judah and asked, “Who are you?”
They said, “We are relatives
of Ahaziah, and we have come
down to greet the families of
the king and of the queen
mother.”
2 chr 22:3
He too followed the ways of
the house of Ahab, for his mother encouraged him to act wickedly.

Was this queen mother good?
No.

(3)Let's look at another mention of queen mother.

Jeremiah 13:18
Say to the king and to the
queen mother, "Come down
from your thrones, for your
glorious crowns will fall from
your heads."

Was these a good thing? No.

Pls if you know of any other "queen mother" mentioned in the scriptures, pls let us know. Note, queen mother is different from mother of the king.

What was the outcome of barthshebas request when she sat down on the throne .

“I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do
not refuse me.”
The king replied, “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse
you.”
21 So she said, “Let Abishag the Shunammite be given in marriage to your brother Adonijah.”
22 King Solomon answered
his mother, “Why do you
request Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah?
You might as well request the
kingdom for him—after all, he
is my older brother—yes, for
him and for Abiathar the priest
and Joab son of Zeruiah!”
23 Then King Solomon swore by the LORD: “May God deal with me, be it ever so severely, if Adonijah does not pay with his life for this request!....
25 So King Solomon gave orders to Benaiah son of Jehoiada, and he struck down Adonijah and he died.

No wonder jehovah only appointed and anointed males to have rulership positions.

IMAGE OF MARY:
When you read commandments from Exodus, you read a summary. The full version is in Deuteronomy chapter 4.
Deut 4:15-16 -- "Because you did not see any form.....".
It means you do not know my form so making an image of me would be foolish and wrong. Don't make an image of the Sun and anyother thing thinking that they are my image or form. That is what the commandment means.

"You shall not make for
yourself a carved image or
any likeness of anything that is
in heaven above or that is on
the earth beneath or that is in
the water below.

Never make your own carved
idols or statues that represent
any creature in the sky, on the
earth, or in the water.

Jesus is God and the people saw Jesus.

Jesus is the son of God and no one has seen God at any time.

They made diagrams of him in the caves and catacombs. And not just Jesus but Mary, Peter, the Apostles and a lot of other things.
When we use images, we don't worship them. That would be foolish. We use them as a reminder of the people in them or the events they represent.

So the scriptures does not give you enough reminders.

When you look at a relative's picture, is it the picture you're fond of or the person whose picture you are holding?

Haha! (an illustration)Holding my great great granpa picture and no emotions cus I no sabi the guy. But if I get to read about him, ill know him better, and that is exactly what the disciples did.
Moreover we are talking about carved image not picture of the real person.

@ Jolliano

continued.......

NOW, Looking at Mary and Eve:
Eve listened to an evil angel and brought sin
Mary listened to a good angel and brought grace and life.

Good.

Eve pushed adam to his first sinful deed.
Mary pushed Jesus to his first Glorious deed.

So the appointment of disciples is less glorious than turning water into wine.?

Eve - Mother of all living. - Gen 3:20
Mary - Mother of JESUS in whom was life - John 1:4 and through Jesus,mother of all Christians (people living in Christ) - Rev 12:17 and specially symbolized through John in John 14:26.
(Remember the reference to the WOMAN and her seed in Gen 3:15).

The scriptures never made reference to such, christians are jesus brothers and jesus said they where giving to him by God, not by his association to mary. Remember who jesus himself calls his mothers, or was he lying?!

Are you saying the "woman in genesis 3:15 is mary?

”And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over
you.”

What Eve Caused adam to do at a tree.
Mary brought forth Jesus and he undid it on a WOODEN CROSS(Tree of Life).

Bro, all that jesus did was from the father, even jesus did not do anything by his own initiative, that mary gave birth to jesus does not mean she was the one who told jesus what to do.

Eve was cursed by God for disbelief. - Gen 3:14
Mary was blessed for believing. - Luke 1:45

Disobedience Bro, not disbelief.

I have already shown that she is the Ark of the Covenant.
Eve carried the old covenant and brought forth children. One of which was killed by his brother (Jesus betrayed by Judas). "The blood of Jesus and the blood of Abel...."- Luke 12:24.
Mary is the Ark of the New and everlasting covenant.
(All covenants had and have Arks).

False analogy, eve did not carry any ark or covenant.
Eve never had any covenant with God.
Mary is not the ark of any new covenant. The scripture never said so.
You had tried to link mary with the ark of covenant using similarities, now you are on ur
Own trying to give mary a new ark.

Read 1 Chronicles 15 and 16 and you will see the high honour and veneration the Israelites including David payed to the Ark of the Covenant which was so holy that touching it caused Uzzah's death.

That same honour and veneration is what we pay to Mary (The Ark Of The New Covenant). The same honour payed to her by the Early Christians and even the first Protestants (Martin Luther even has an image of Mary at his grave till now, Zwingli and Calvin).

1. Did the ark marry like mary did?
2. Did those who touched mary die?
3. Did God instruct you to venerate and honour mary?
4. Did God instruct you to make an image of mary.?
If the ark of the covenant was an image, was mary an image? How can she now be compared to an image?

5. Was any of these venerations you do to mary's image done to mary during her life time?

EXTRAS:-
1. Mary was ever virgin.
A. The Ark was too holy to be touched by humans (Count how many people died for treating the Ark anyhow). We understand from this that Joseph understanding this would not try to sleep with her.

Look at what you said again, they treated the ark anyhow ? Or they broke the laws concerning the ark?
Now what laws where giving concerning touching mary, since you are looking for similarities.

Na lie, mary gave birth, had other children. Joseph did not touch her until....

B. Before you mention Matthew 1:25 "....until...".
Until in the bible does not mean it occured after that time.

I have mentioned it, "until" means "until"
Until : up to (a particular time)
—used to indicate the time
when something will happen,
become true, etc.
—used as a function word
to indicate continuance (as of
an action or condition) to a
specified time <stayed until
morning>.

but knew her not until she had
given birth to a son. And he
called his name Jesus.
It means that after these events he knew her!

Stop twisting the scriptures.

2 Sam 6 (Still ark of the covenant chapter) verse 23 - "Michal had no child until her death". Does it she gave birth after she died?[/quote]Will you stop this, looking for a particular translation to suit ur views will not help.

And Michal daughter of Saul
had no children to the day of her death.

Psalm 110:1- "My Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I have made your enemies your footstool".
Does it mean that he will leave the right hand after the enemies are made his footstool?
That question will be answered by you when you tell me if jesus was still sitting at Gods right hand when he came back to earth?

[quote]So you see, until does not mean it occured.

You are wrong.

C. Brothers of Jesus:
They were called adelphos of Jesus and was translated as brother.
The word "Adelphos" is used to represent close relations whether from the same parents, related by blood or not.
Lot was called Abraham's adelphos but we know they were not brothers.
Acts 1:13 - 15 - "the 12 apostles, Mary, the women and the brethren of Jesus..... And they were 120 in number".
12 + 1 + 20(assuming the women were twenty) = 33.
That would mean the brothers of Jesus were 87. How Mary take born 87 children wey don grow up when Jesus him first born still dey 33 to 34 years old?

At bold, it therefore means that the context will determine the true meaning of brother, if it is of the same parent or not.

Mat 12:46
While Jesus was still talking to
the crowd, his mother and
brothers stood outside,
wanting to speak to him

Is the mother the literal mother mentioned here? If yes, why are you not believing that the brothers are not jesus literal brothers.?

Jesus would not have made the statement he made in verse 48 to 50 if the brothers in verse 48 where not literal like the mother in verse 48 .

People who knew jesus family said
Matt 15:55:57
“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James,
Joseph, Simon and Judas?
56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man
get all these things?”

If mary is the literal mother of jesus, wonder why you view that those mentioned here are not jesus' literal brothers and sisters. Mary had up to 30 years or little less to give birth to them.

"For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples.
The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings.
Some Roman Catholics
claim that these “brothers”
were actually Jesus’
cousins. However, in each
instance, the specific
Greek word for “brother” is
used. While the word can
refer to other relatives, its
normal and literal meaning
is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” (anepsios),and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to
see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-
brothers.
Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers
and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical. Mary was a married woman, and the scriptures did say a wife should not deny her husband his due, and their is no record of any injunction that mary or Joseph should not know each other or have children .

Obviously, Jesus had no brothers.

you re wrong.

2. Mary was conceived without sin and remained sinless.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.


Unless your traditions teaches you that mary is not a descendant of adam , then this scripture applies to her.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered
the world through one man, and death through sin, and in
this way death came to all people, because all sinned.


To be continued......

Jolliano:
You don't nEed arguments but a simple bible study.

Bro again I say, stop jumping into the discussion between me and pastor. You have not quoted my reply to you and you keep quoting my reply to someone else post.

Let Me Show You Who Mary Is From Scripture using typology as Jesus and his Apostles used.
Remember,the OT is a Prefiguration of the NT.

The above is not true.

All or most israelites knew the OT by Heart which is why they never quoted it. They would simply say it is written in the Scriptures because they expected that the other person knew what the OT contained.

So they dnt quote what is written? Pls what do you understand by the word "quote"?

Look at Gen 1 and John 1.
Anybody with even small sense can see that John is connecting his Gospel directly to Genesis.

Bro, they are talking about two different begginings.
All these connections and similarities you are looking for will not allow someone to know what the scriptures really says.
The scripture is not understood by similarities, it is understood by context and meanings Bro.

"In the beginning" and "In the beginning". Verse 1.
"God saw that the light was good..." And "The light shined in the...... " Verse 5.
"Spirit and water" Gen 1:2 / "Spirit and water" John 1:32-33.

Failure to quote the whole sentence shows you are wrong and trying to prove something that does not exist. There are a lot of similarities in the scriptures, but it does not mean that they are talking about the same thing.

]First, John shows that The Word was God and that the Word was made flesh. This shows that Jesus is the Word and since the Word is God, Jesus is God.

So God was with God, then we have two Gods.

Back to Mary:

Genesis 1 and 2:
God created Man (Adam) on the sixth day, saw that he was lonely, put him in a deep sleep and then created the woman. On the Seventh day, Adam saw her and called her "WOMAN" because they were "Flesh of flesh and blood of blood".

John 1 and 2:
(Please count with me)
John's first mention of the Messiah- Day 1
John 1:29- The next day - Day 2
John 1:35- The next day - Day 3
John 1:43- The next day - Day 4
John 2:1- On the third day - Day 7

Bros pls provide proof that God created eve on the seventh day .

On the seventh day at Cana, Jesus calls Mary "WOMAN" - John 2:4. Mary and Jesus are "flesh of flesh and blood of blood".
Note, that everytime Jesus talks to Mary, he calls her WOMAN even at the cross- John 14:26. Do you now see why John would refer to her as The WOMAN in Revelations 12.

You are looking for similarities in woman abi, pls add this people.

Luke 13:12
When Jesus saw her, he
called her forward and said to
her, "Woman, you are set free
from your infirmity."

John 4 :21
must worship is in Jerusalem.”
“Woman,” Jesus replied,
“believe me, a time is coming
when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

John 20:15
He asked her, “Woman,
why are you crying? Who is it
you are looking for?”

And if you still believe that the woman in rev 12 is mary , pls tell us

1.when did mary become pregnant in heaven and who give her belle?
(2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.)

2.when did mary give birth to a second son?
(5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” a And her child
was snatched up to God and
to his throne.

3. When did mary have offprings
(17 Then the dragon was
enraged at the woman and
went off to wage war against
the rest of her offspring—
those who keep God’s
commands and hold fast their
testimony about Jesus.)

To be continued.......

Scholar8200:
John 1:1,18 establishes the fact that HE IS GOD. John 1:14 reveals He was made flesh. Hebrews 2:9 tells us why the Word was made flesh. And Philipians 2:5-9 gives us the mindset He had while in the flesh.

John 1:1 reveals that jesus is a God, a God that was with the father, the almighty God.

John 1:18 reveals that no one has seen God , it is the only begotten son that reveals/explain him.

John 1:14 reveals that the word became flesh . That we beheld his glory, the glory of the one and only begotten son of who? The father of us all.( not God himself).so he was not God in human flesh.

Let's look at the context around heb 2:9

”9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, (this is to show you that someone made him human)now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death,(even after he was crowned by someone, he did not have equality with that person that crowned him) so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10 In bringing many sons and
daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he
suffered.
11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers
and sisters. 12 He says,
“I will declare your name to my
brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises.”( does the almighty God have brothers and sisters, does the God jesus have brothers and sisters?)
13 And again, “I will put my trust in him.” i
And again he says, “Here am I, and the children God has given me.”
14 Since the children have
flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity( it was not a Partial sharing of divine and human nature ) so that by his
death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God,( this same service to God he continued when he went back to heaven) and that he might make atonement for the sins of
the people. 18 Because he
himself suffered when he was
tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Can you now see why and how jesus came to earth as fully human in every way a human is human with no additions!?

Philipians 2:5-9 did not only give us the mindset He had while in the flesh, but also gave us jesus mindset before he became human and when he became human.
That is why God exalted him, to show you he is not God almighty. And all these was done to the glory of who ? The father, the only true God.
(verse 11-13)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (not " I was".)

So jesus never said "he is God"
Does saying "I am" as a statement or part of a sentence mean you are God.?

John 8:58

Speaking of His Incarnation:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 3:13

That he that came from heaven is not God almighty but someone sent by God almighty. Someone who God trusts that he will do Gods will to the end.

They came from the same Source available to those who believe on Him today - the Holy Spirit by Whom the Father Indwelt Him!!! (just as HE Indwells believers today by the Spirit)

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Acts 10:38

So you agree that jesus got his power and authority from the father, his God.

But NOWHERE will you find that relating to the pre-incarnated Christ that God anointed Him with power to create the World, NO WAY.

This statement can be true only if you agree that the glory and honour, power and authority giving to jesus after he went back to heaven was incomplete. That God did not fully answer to his request on the glory he had before coming to earth(do you remember that prayer by jesus). Cus the scriptures let us know that it was still thr father who gave the holy spirit by the request of jesus even after jesus ascension to heaven. So if jesus is not almighty God when he went back to heaven, he definitely was not almighty God before he came to earth.!

Is He God? YES.

After the incarnation was He a man - YES

During the Incarnation was He still God - YES (the pronoun He in Philipians 2 was referring to the Pre-Incarnated Christ , not somebody else, and how He became flesh)



IS HE the Father? NO

IS HE the Holy Spirit? NO

He was a God, a mighty God, but he was not almighty God .

When he became flesh, did he still have his divine nature? No he became fully human, he left one nature for the other and did not have two natures at once, and the scriptures points to all his miracles as power from the father. No wonder no miracle was mentioned untill the holy spirit came upon him!

brocab:
That's right both of them are mentioned, and both of them are one the same.

Is jesus the same person as the father? Now that you have agreed that there are two persons mentioned there.

No-one has seen God at any time-because God shined His light through Jesus. God is light.

So wheneva anybody sees Gods light, its jesus they see. Jesus is now a light emanating from the father, and not a seperate entity with his own light?
But if you mean that one person shines his light through another person, then it means they are two seperate persons who can have conversation with each other and take instructions from each other.

John 1:18 "No-one has even seen God, but the one the only Son, {Jesus} who is Himself God, and in relationship with the Father, Has made Him known.

You can't be with another person and still be that same other person, even trinitarians and scholars dnt agree to that. Jesus is a seperate person from the father.

No-one seen God-before Jesus came.
2 Corinthians 4:6 "For God, who said, let light shine out of the darkness, " made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.

And did they see God when and after jesus came? No one has seen God at any time!

Jesus said one must be born again and be baptised into His name.

show scripture.

This is where you religious organisations go wrong, like the Catholic's, everyone is baptised under the banner of the Catholic Church, by doing it, this way-we find the Catholic's won't mix with other Christians who aren't Catholic.
Same with you JW's having the same ordeal, you were baptised under the banner of the JW's and again you won't mix with other Christians in Christ.
Christians means Christ like, and yet none of you religious forks mix with other Christians that's outside your Church.

How do the jw's baptise under their banner? .