₦airaland Forum

Very interesting read so far!

In some parts of the country, media reports of low turnout were contradicted by results showing more than 70% turnout! In the 1960s and our subsequent republics, the electoral fraud was overt - ballot box snatching, ballot stuffing and chasing away voters for officials to vote on their behalf. Today in Nigeria, except for the South-East and parts of South-South, this rigging technology is no longer used. What is more common is the covert rigging which entails first, change the numbers on the result sheets, and then get the ballot papers thumb-printed to back up "the declared result". Our accurate voters' register will help resolve this.

The reason why I think the voters register may well save our democracy is this - should the opposition parties choose to go court, and require the ballot papers to be technologically scrutinized, the real result of the April 19 election will be known and everyone will have no choice but to accept the outcome. For now, this is not happening because General Buhari has promised not to waste his time going to court. The question is, what next?

Hehe. El-Rufai's mamma didn't raise no fool

Interesting map.

Need electricity though for manufacturing. That is the main thing. Ya'll should take advantage of the abundant hydroelectric potential you have to power the north. Though it might have a pretty negative impact downstream.

Lmao.

“Investors are taking a measured view of the risk; the key is that given Jonathan’s victory oil output is unlikely to be under any threat,” Razia Khan, London-based head of Africa research at Standard Chartered Bank Plc, said in a phone interview today. “The protests were in the north and of course the oil comes from the delta and the delta is firmly in support of Jonathan.”

Jonathan has promised to continue an amnesty for former militants in the Niger River delta in the south of the nation, a policy that has helped boost oil output there by 27 percent since July 2009. Attacks by rebels in the region cut Nigeria’s oil output by more than 28 percent between 2006 and 2009.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-04-19/nigerian-eurobonds-stocks-advance-as-jonathan-wins-election.html

They don't much care about northern protests, I guess.

I guess he who pays the piper, dictates the tune.

Sai Yorubaland

@ndu_chuks: Kind of interesting.

Access to the sea won't be too much of an issue; you just negotiate some sort of deal with your neighbors who are not landlocked. You won't be locked out of the sea by only one country. Benin Republic, the Yoruba Federation, Ijaw Republic and Igbo Republic would all be competing for your business.

Farming is good and can make good money if done at a commercial scale. But unfortunately, farming doesn't employ lots of people. You basically need to start manufacturing stuff to employ lots of people and have a happy society.

He is not a perfect man. He has many flaws, and has made many mistakes in his life. But he is a great man.

Possibly in my top five list of people dead or living I'd want to meet and spend an hour talking too.

Bill Clinton's approval rating by race in the US during his term in office:

https://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/nfd1iw-im0odafqmuzac7g.gif

Best 8 years in American history, at least since I've been alive. Idyllic times. Don't take shots at Bill Clinton, unless you want wahala  

Ystranger:
Of course, until he made the fairytale statement!

Man, that was not his fault. Frikkin Hillary made him do it. The c*nt. I hate that b1tch. He made a mistake. We have forgiven him.

Ystranger:
President Clinton's words/commendations mean nothing!

LEt him shove his patronizing praise up my dirty arse

Are you serious, or joking? Why are you taking shots at my hero (Clinton)? 

He is good peeps.

Man I didn't think there was a black person on earth who dislikes Bill Clinton 

Justcash:
People are making cash, some people are here showing educational might. Little wonder why Wole Soyinka is in an old house in Ogun, speaking English, while a less educated Dangote is gaining grounds in the rich men's list.
At the end of the day, you all want to be rich. The person getting rich here is Seun (I doff my hat).
Education no dey make person to dey smart o. That is why with all the umbrellas, P. Jonathan is still influential. If you doubt me, ask Orji Uzor Kalu.

Cash is not the be-all, end-all of life. I know men much smarter than myself who will likely end up much poorer than me. I respect them greatly. . . and recognize that if they took their prodigous gifts outside of the world of science, they'd get rich very fast.

Similarly, there are men much wealthier than me, but much dumber. I don't have any disrespect for them, but neither do I admire them as much as the former type of guy.

Finally. . . have no fear. Within a bit of time, upon completing my studies, I'll be spending my energies/talents on accumulating wealth too  

@Beaf:

1) "Begging the question" is a logic error, not a sin. Not dishonesty. It is simply assuming what one must prove/argue is true. Here are two examples:

A) If I'm trying to convince you of X, I cannot assume X to be true in constructing my argument. It would be begging the question to say, "Assume X. Then X is true.", and have that as an argument for the truth of X.
B) Suppose that  it is true that X and Y logically imply Z. If the truth of statement X is also dependent on Z, then that would also be an example of begging the question. . . since for me to use X in my argument, I have to assume Z. So I'm implicitly assuming that the very thing I'm trying to prove true (Z) is true! Again, a logical error.

There are more examples and variants of this basic theme. But this in a nutshell is begging the question. Or at least, how I understand it.

2)  Now, let's look at what I wrote, which you claim is begging the question. We'll # each sentence, too:

1. Perhaps BBC had people on the ground at the polling booths who then phoned the #s back to the main office, then added up to figure out who won.
2. If that is what they did, who can blame them for announcing a winner?
3. In theory, doing that should tell you who won.
4. Not really their fault that adding up the # of votes at the polling booths is not a valid way of saying who won a LGA or state (at least in naija  )

I guess you are interpreting the above to be an argument for the truth of statement #4. Thus, for you, statement #4 is my conclusion, what I am trying to prove/argue is true. By accusing me of "begging the question", you are claiming that somewhere in my argument, I've assumed that statement #4 is true in order to prove it.

Now, why exactly are you wrong? Why did I not beg the question? For the following reasons:
A) First of all, sentence #1, #2, and #3 are not being used as evidence for the truth of sentence #4. #1, #2, and #3, if true, do not imply #4.
B) I do not assume that #4 is true to ensure that any of #1, #2, or #3 are true. Sentence #1 is always true. . .  it is a conditional statement. Same for sentence #2. The truth of sentence #3 of independent of that of #4.
C) At a more fundamental level, none of what I wrote was a proof or argument for #4. I cannot be accused of begging the question if I'm not even arguing for #4.

So in a very technical, precise sense, I did not beg the question. Hopefully this should be enough to convince you or anyone else reading.

If anyone here is good at logic as well and you've caught a mistake made by me, please feel free to chime in. It has been a while since I've taken philosophy, so I could easily have made a minor error somewhere above.

Beaf. I'm about to head to dinner right now. We shall continue this when I return. . . about 2 hrs time. It will be a lot of fun.

[quote author=ndu_chucks link=topic=650619.msg8167587#msg8167587 date=1303255848]@ekt_bear, stop embarassing Beaf by exposing his intellectual inadequacy. Frankly, I know Beaf enough to say that he is only pretending to be a intellectual  midget this time around - i.e. unless I've been wrong all along.   LWKMD   [/quote]Hehe. I didn't really want to embarrass him. If I wanted to, I'd have dragged it out to 20 posts or so, so he could keep digging himself into a deeper and deeper pit

Read through my post. I gave him every chance to take back his accusation. I hinted strongly that he had made a huge mistake. My hope was that he'd actually google those three terms I quoted, try to deeply understand them, and then see his error. How more easily could I have let him off?

Anyway, if he calls you an "aboki", just remind him of "begging the question"

@Beaf: Trying to change the subject and cover your shame after failing the exam, I guess

This is the problem with growing up in your life using "expo" to pass exams. It makes you mentally weak, food for the strong

Anyway, let me stop mocking you, that is a being a bit unkind. I should instead help, rather than mock.

Here is a list of logical fallacies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
And here is a top 20 list of the ones people usually screw up on: http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx

Might be worth your time to read through some of them. In particular, read the article you linked to from Wikipedia on "beg the question" carefully. It won't take you too much time to understand the concept, it is pretty easy. If you still don't understand, here are some other references for you to master the concept:

1) http://skepdic.com/begging.html
2) http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html

There is a bunch of other stuff you can google too.

Then spend another three minutes reading what you quoted from me. Understand why you accusing me of "begging the question" makes zero sense here. For someone to "beg the question", at a minimum, there must be some sort of proposition being made.

It was impossible for me to "beg the question", since I made no proposition! 

(again, note that "proposition" in this context is different from the colloquial English usage! I mean "proposition" as used in logic or mathematics, not when ordinary people say the word "proposition." Again, to repeat, "proposition" in the context of accusing someone of "begging the question" is different from, "Oh gee, that is a pretty crappy proposal for why the BBC did XYZ, ekt_bear."

Anyway, Beaf as a general rule. . . make sure you understand what English phrases and expressions mean before you use them. Especially the ones related to logical fallacies. People use them all the time inappropriately without understand what they mean. You are not the first one who has made this mistake, and probably will not be the last.

So rather than taking the exam, you decide to skip it?

"Begging the question", indeed

Arrogant stupidity was the term I used to describe you before. Imagine, a man who will accuse another of "begging the question". . . without first understanding what the phrase means!

Beaf:
Crap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Hehe. OK, let me test you a bit, see if you are just randomly googling or actually understand what these terms mean.

So first of all, I'm assuming that you know what the terms "hypothesis" and "proposition" mean in philosophy, logic, and mathematics? And how their meanings are very precise and quite different from what it means when we speak English casually? If you do not understand what these terms mean, then there was no point in you accusing me of "begging the question". . . since you obviously won't understand what that term means either 

Alright, let us begin. I'll assume that again you understand what the above three terms in quotes mean, in the context of logic.

Now, kindly explain to me, what proposition did I assume without proving or justifying? 

Be very careful Beaf; don't make any mistakes in answering this question I have asked Think very carefully, lest you be exposed to the world as a person who throws around words and phrases without understanding their meaning.

What does working for the BBC have to do with this hypothesis? How is that relevant, at all?

I also do not work for Pizza Hut. . . that has about as much relevance to this discussion.

rasqman:
The is not about the unrest in the North but rather about local politics of Imo State.

Ihenacho fell out of favour just because of his rift with Amb. Kema Chikwe, PDP Senatorial Candidate in Imo.

He was alleged to have worked for APGA candidate to win the NASS election.

This is what I saw on another forum as well.

[quote author=tpiah! link=topic=650615.msg8167218#msg8167218 date=1303251590]that's a nice photo.

so the man fine like that?

i had no idea.[/quote]lmao 

Perhaps BBC had people on the ground at the polling booths who then phoned the #s back to the main office, then added up to figure out who won.

If that is what they did, who can blame them for announcing a winner? In theory, doing that should tell you who won.

Not really their fault that adding up the # of votes at the polling booths is not a valid way of saying who won a LGA or state (at least in naija )

[quote author=Kilode?! link=topic=649879.msg8167113#msg8167113 date=1303250532]SMH @ the bolded, not surprised though, I persoally heard it was done in 2003 from people who did it and sold their parties out becaus they believed they had no chance and the money was good.

You control the Center(money, treasury) and the message, you control the country, period. That is how it works in an unstructured, centralized environment like Nigeria.

We can't manage it. We have to solve it. I'm going to keep saying it everywhere until I get tired.[/quote]I agree on decentralization, but I think you disagree on how exactly it should be implemented. Understandable, since you come from Ondo and I from Ekiti  At the end of the day, these things come down to cold, hard, cash.

I'm sure you are gradually seeing why this country needs those deep changes. 10000000000MW of electricity may not solve our problems.

Libya has good electricity, I'm sure they have mobile phones and good electricity in Somalia too.

I disagree, to some extent. Increasing the non-oil sector of the economy reduces the influence of the FG and PDP. Growing the non-oil sector is imo KEY to weakening the powers of the FG.

I'd instead like to see the powers of the FG weakened so much that getting the presidency doesn't become a do-or-die affair.

They are always angry. Sexually Emotionally frustrated, no doubt 

^-- Why do we continue this path, though? What is the point of this game? Why not build a real country, a real democracy? And if that is impossible in Nigeria (as I am now starting to believe it is), why not find some solution other than Nigeria? Is splitting the country the end of the world?

First time I voted in my life was in 2008, for Obama. The library not too far from my house is where the polling booth was. PDP didn't bribe me to vote. ACN man didn't offer me N1000 for my vote. I did it because I wanted to.

What is wrong with having 10% voter turnout, but at least everyone voting their convictions, rather than because they are bribed? That is real democracy. Not a system of 30%, 60%, 85% turnout, and no real certainty how many of those voters were bought, stuffed ballots, underaged voters, etc.

All these guys on Channels TV talking about election, democracy. Even these international observers. . . they basically all have no clue what they are talking about. We don't have that in Nigeria, at all at all.

I don't know what to say.

Very depressing.

[quote author=Kilode?! link=topic=649879.msg8166667#msg8166667 date=1303245608]Some people can't do that though. They can't keep quiet, too much at stake for them, especially the very idealistic ones who believe they can actually catalyse changes and make the country better for most people.

I'm very very pessimistic in the near term, But optimistic we will get it right on the long run, if we can restructure amicably.[/quote]If long run = 100, 200 years (or whenever Nigeria breaks apart, whichever comes first), then I might agree with you.

I wonder if this politics of inducement and rigging is what is also done in other third world democracies. I'll need to read up on India at some point.

[quote author=Muk-Ldn link=topic=649879.msg8166651#msg8166651 date=1303245506]@ ekt_bear

PDP can be defeated, Buhari took 1/3 of the votes even with the shocking rigging. SW didnt vote. All we need is a solid candidate and party then put in the work in the next 4 years.[/quote]1. How do we know that Buhari did not rig too?
2. Where will you get the cash or fake votes to get 80% turnout from? Not enough cash, since you don't control the FG. No fake votes, since you don't control the ballotting and collation process.

[quote author=Muk-Ldn link=topic=650172.msg8166607#msg8166607 date=1303245103]One Postive though, It is clear that PDP can be broken after this, there is hope for Nigeria yet!  [/quote]

How is this possible? You can never beat a party that can mysteriously obtain 80%+ turnout in multiple states when the actual turnout was half of that.

This should be a very sobering moment for the opposition.

I'm starting to think that is the best policy for sanity. Watch from afar, don't get too involved personally.  Make your money, enjoy your life, don't ask too many questions which you know have unpleasant answers. Focus instead on making your own little local bubble of the world a good place.